Can one lose their salvation? (Obviously CC)

[mommaduck]

I am reading this thread with interest as I have always believed that one can not lose salvation but have someone very dear to me who believes otherwise.

 

I am wondering - what does endure mean? Many have mentioned we must endure to the end but what does this mean?

 

Also, what if one has walked away at some point and then suddenly dies, if by chance it happened while one was away from God does that mean that one is then condemned?

The honest truth is that ONLY God can know a person's heart and spiritual condition. WE cannot judge at all. We may see a person's weakness and struggle, but can't really know the heart. Scripture states that we don't even know our own heart, so how can we judge another?

 

There is a story about a drunken monk. Everyone jested and were disgusted with him. When he reposed (died) an army of angels were seen carrying his soul up. The people asked, "how is this?! He was the drunken monk!" His spiritual father (priest or abbot) responded that as a child, his family had been persecuted by the Turks. The Turks were gathering up all male children from the Greek families and the parents would give him (a strong middle eastern alcohol) to keep him quiet. He was an alcoholic from childhood to save his life. He later became a monk and sought to fight his addiction. Every day he would drink what he was accustomed to, but, every year, he would decrease it by one glass (apparently, he started at about 20). When he reposed, he was down to one glass a day, but even that caused him to appear drunk (so damaged was his body?). How many of us have sought to rid ourselves of our sins and demons even a portion of what this man did?

 

(forgive me if I did not tell the story as well as I could have. I tried finding it, but had to tell it from memory)

[Dubaibokkie]

My life leaves me feeling abandoned by Him, or worse that he isn't who he says he is,.

I used to feel like this. Then I realised it was because I had a biological Father who wasn't worth his word. When I could separate the two "Dads" it made it easier to accept God as perfect and His word as reliable. It was scary though. Because if He was perfect and my life so horribly wrong... well then it had to say a lot about me.

I think God especially values the screamers. Like Job. They take Him at face value.

JMO

[Dobela]

Endure means that we keep doing it, even if today is difficult, because we believe in and want the end results. Homeschooling my children requires my endurance, for example, because some days are not easy at all. But I believe that if I continue, this is the best decision for my kids and the end results, whatever those may be, are going to be worth it. Sure, some days I want to quit, have doubts about my ability, have doubts about many things, tire of hearing all the negatives about homeschooling, tire of explaining why it is a good thing for us, but I keep going. I had dreams of happy children, doing fabulous activities daily, and some kind of heaven on earth. What happened is that they don't want to learn, they don't appreciate what I do, it isn't all fun, they have learning disabilities.... Christian faith is a lot like that. Some days we are tired of the struggle. Some days we doubt our talents/skills/faith/whatever. We lose sight of the big picture, we forget that there are rewards in the end that we want. Enduring means that even though it is tough right now, I keep moving forward.

[Juniper]

I am reading this thread with interest as I have always believed that one can not lose salvation but have someone very dear to me who believes otherwise.

 

I am wondering - what does endure mean? Many have mentioned we must endure to the end but what does this mean?

 

Also, what if one has walked away at some point and then suddenly dies, if by chance it happened while one was away from God does that mean that one is then condemned?

 

 

Honestly, I do not think we get to define it. Between the thief on the cross and the parable of the workers, the definition of enduring (across the board) is not up to us. It is up to Him.

 

The nice thing about this is it does not leave us in a position to judge someone else's "salvation" or lack thereof at any given time. The real point is that we push on, we fall and we rise, we grow, we shrink, we work, and we rest.

 

I do know that the EO and RC have a very real sense of this enduring through the lives of the Saints. ( I am not trying to over look the other groups that do as well, these are just the ones I am more familiar with.) I recently had a young adult visiting and she was talking to me about a book study our old church is doing on this book http://www.amazon.com/Tangible-Kingdom-Incarnational-Jossey-Bass-Leadership/dp/0470188979/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345903299&sr=1-1&keywords=tangible+kingdom

 

Since it purports to be about returning to the early church she wanted my thoughts. I went and read a portion on Scribid and at one point the author, in a chapter about Constantine, say's the early church was dealing with "the pesky problem of martyrdom." He wasn't being being sarcastic, he was being flippant and that was very painful for me to read. :glare:

 

Just my thoughts! ;)

Edited August 25, 2012 by Juniper

[ktgrok]

Because while I know that it is true, I struggle with reality of where I've been in life. My life leaves me feeling abandoned by Him, or worse that he isn't who he says he is, and yet everything I read rings true to me. I keep going, because I know I need to. I still spend a lot of time screaming at Him.

 

normal. Not rejecting God, just being human.

 

As long as you keep going it is all good.

[justamouse]

I think God especially values the screamers. Like Job. They take Him at face value.

JMO

 

So very true. I used to be so afraid to be angry at God. But here's the thing, if you are, you're hiding your true feelings from Him (and are you hiding it really?) and that's not emotionally honest, and not the basis of a true relationship.

 

When I got honest with where I was, that was when my relationship with Him started to deepen and my life started to change.

[I.Dup.]

Well, I don't know, really.

 

I had a dream once, and in it I was walking towards a lion. He roared, and I walked closer. He roared again, and I kept on walking. When I was close enough to touch him, he said, "Do you know who I am? I'm not a tame lion. I could go right through you, if you get closer."

 

As I buried my face in his mane, I said, "Then I will die with your breath on my neck."

 

Wow! What a powerful dream.

[Joanne]

Ultimately, it was the salvation issue that lead me away from traditional Christianity (with help from other issues).

 

God is either grace, or not. If he is grace, there is no need for select savlation. If he isn't grace, he isn't god.

 

So, I ditched the whole sin/depraved/predisposition thing altogether.

 

I don't "save myself" OR need a savior.

[DawnM]

I understand this logic.

 

I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. My friend, a 5 point Calvinist who goes to a very strong Presbyterian church, has told me several times that I am not truly saved because unless I believe in the Depravity of Man and "understand" that I have no effort or choice in salvation then I am not truly saved.

 

The idea/concept of Hell bothers me. I am not a Universalist......yet, but I don't understand how God can judge our eternity by our limited earthly understanding of who He is or what the afterlife will entail.

 

I am not looking to be told either, believe me, I have been born and raised in a VERY Christian home and have studied this all ad nauseum.

 

Dawn

 

Ultimately, it was the salvation issue that lead me away from traditional Christianity (with help from other issues).

 

God is either grace, or not. If he is grace, there is no need for select savlation. If he isn't grace, he isn't god.

 

So, I ditched the whole sin/depraved/predisposition thing altogether.

 

I don't "save myself" OR need a savior.

[mommaduck]

I understand this logic.

 

I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. My friend, a 5 point Calvinist who goes to a very strong Presbyterian church, has told me several times that I am not truly saved because unless I believe in the Depravity of Man and "understand" that I have no effort or choice in salvation then I am not truly saved.

 

The idea/concept of Hell bothers me. I am not a Universalist......yet, but I don't understand how God can judge our eternity by our limited earthly understanding of who He is or what the afterlife will entail.

 

I am not looking to be told either, believe me, I have been born and raised in a VERY Christian home and have studied this all ad nauseum.

 

Dawn

Former Calvinist here: THIS is a problem. Theology is deep and wide. A child will never fully understand it. Adults will never have it all down pat (believe me, I used to debate and discuss with the best of them). God will never be fully understood or figured out. We can make all the declarations we want about God, but that does not make it true or mean that those declarations are all there is to God. This kind of statement, pretty much says that only superhuman theologians (none exist) will be saved.

[fairfarmhand]

I am a freewill baptist. Our denomination teaches, according to Hebrews and several other passages, in the doctrine of apostasy. This is a slight difference from "losing your salvation." Losing your salvation implies that it is something that you just accidentally do. Apostasy is a deliberate rejection of the grace of God after the salvation decision. Apostasy does not occur because you sinned once or many other times. Apostasy is an effective turning your back on God and deciding that you don't want anything to do with him.

 

Apostasy is a grave thing, that is between someone and God. It is not something that an outsider can judge. Even Christians who are angry and frustrated with God cannot be apostate if they take their angry feelings to him. This article explains our position.

 

http://www.fwb21.com/2011/11/03/two-false-extremes-related-to-apostasy/

 

BTW, we don't believe that you can regain your salvation after you have become an apostate.

Edited August 25, 2012 by fairfarmhand

[Dory]

I am a freewill baptist. Our denomination teaches, according to Hebrews and several other passages, in the doctrine of apostasy. This is a slight difference from "losing your salvation." Losing your salvation implies that it is something that you just accidentally do. Apostasy is a deliberate rejection of the grace of God after the salvation decision. Apostasy does not occur because you sinned once or many other times. Apostasy is an effective turning your back on God and deciding that you don't want anything to do with him.

 

Apostasy is a grave thing, that is between someone and God. It is not something that an outsider can judge. Even Christians who are angry and frustrated with God cannot be apostate if they take their angry feelings to him. This article explains our position.

 

http://www.fwb21.com/2011/11/03/two-false-extremes-related-to-apostasy/

 

BTW, we don't believe that you can regain your salvation after you have become an apostate.

 

 

So if one were to reject God knowingly when they were 10, there is no going back? Even if when they are older they know that what they did was perhaps unwise?

In other words, at what age would a person have the cognitive ability to become an apostate?

Also, would there really be any going back anyway? I mean if that person has truly walked away from it, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be tugging on them anymore. They would really have no desire to want to walk back, right?

[mommaduck]

So if one were to reject God knowingly when they were 10, there is no going back? Even if when they are older they know that what they did was perhaps unwise?

In other words, at what age would a person have the cognitive ability to become an apostate?

Also, would there really be any going back anyway? I mean if that person has truly walked away from it, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be tugging on them anymore. They would really have no desire to want to walk back, right?

These were the same questions I used to have.

[Murphy101]

The RCC says there is no sin that cannot be repented, thus no sin that cannot be forgiven. Thus even apostasy can be forgiven. However, it obviously, like any sin, requires repenting and confession.:)

[Carol in Cal.]

Show me faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works? Isn't that what Paul said?

 

Actually, that was James.

[fairfarmhand]

So if one were to reject God knowingly when they were 10, there is no going back? Even if when they are older they know that what they did was perhaps unwise?

In other words, at what age would a person have the cognitive ability to become an apostate?

Also, would there really be any going back anyway? I mean if that person has truly walked away from it, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be tugging on them anymore. They would really have no desire to want to walk back, right?

at age 10 I really can't think that a person can make a decision like that. But even at young ages, I believe that people don't fully understand the impacts of salvation. For instance, I "gave my heart to Jesus" at age 6 or so. But it wasn't till I was an adult that I understood how HARD it would be to follow him no matter what. So I am not sure about that. There is much about theology that I don't understand. The status of children and salvation is one of those fuzzy areas.

 

But yes, it does mean pretty much that the Holy Spirit departs from you, and there is no desire to follow God.

[Rene']

Because while I know that it is true, I struggle with reality of where I've been in life. My life leaves me feeling abandoned by Him, or worse that he isn't who he says he is, and yet everything I read rings true to me. I keep going, because I know I need to. I still spend a lot of time screaming at Him.

:grouphug: Could it be wrong theology that is the problem, and not God himself?

 

Show me faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works? Isn't that what Paul said?

 

That was James. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say , Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:17-18)

 

Paul said "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4)

 

He also said, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11)

 

Faith without works is dead - meaning there is no faith. But true faith will naturally produce works. Our works prove (justify our claim) that we have faith.

 

We don't work to be saved. We work because we are saved.

[Murphy101]

But yes, it does mean pretty much that the Holy Spirit departs from you, and there is no desire to follow God.

 

From a RCC perspective, if that's okay, I would rephrase it to say "you" have departed from the Holy Spirit and have no desire to follow God.

 

God never leaves us. We choose to leave Him.

 

This is true in excommunication. Many people say things like, "the RCC excommunicated him," but in truth excommunication is something that happens within a person's own choices and struggle, done by their own choices, not something done to them. There are many people who are in fact excommunicated and no one knows it except themselves. For they alone know their own mind, heart, and sins and not all sins are as obvious as others. Should their priest or other RC have knowledge of it, one would hope they would receive some spiritual direction to help them return to union with God/Church. But of course, they must be willing to receive that counsel for it to be effective and that is their free will choice as well.

 

For many people, for various reason, this is a time of darkness in a spiritual desert (to coin some saints). For some, they may never regain the spirit they have lost. For others, they may one day return stronger than before. For this reason, the Church tends to combat apostasy being taught by those who claim to be RCC with a double sword. A strong effort, usually for a lengthy period of time, to give spiritual direction and admonishment to the person to bring them back into the fold so to speak. The general hope and presumption, is that obviously that person is experiencing some very deep spiritual trouble and needs some healing of their own. And the other side, is to repeatedly and strongly insist that the apostasy is wrong and a danger to souls. Sadly that aspect is often not well received by those committing apostasy.

[fairfarmhand]

From a RCC perspective, if that's okay, I would rephrase it to say "you" have departed from the Holy Spirit and have no desire to follow God.

 

God never leaves us. We choose to leave Him.

 

 

.

yes. this is a much better way of phrasing it. Thank you!

[Dory]

Actually, that was James.

 

:grouphug: Could it be wrong theology that is the problem' date=' and not God himself?

 

 

 

That was James. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say , Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:17-18)

 

Paul said "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [b']But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for [/b]righteousness." (Romans 4)

 

He also said, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11)

 

Faith without works is dead - meaning there is no faith. But true faith will naturally produce works. Our works prove (justify our claim) that we have faith.

 

We don't work to be saved. We work because we are saved.

 

 

Thank you! I was being too lazy to look it up and couldn't remember.

[dangermom]

So if one were to reject God knowingly when they were 10, there is no going back? Even if when they are older they know that what they did was perhaps unwise?

In other words, at what age would a person have the cognitive ability to become an apostate?

Also, would there really be any going back anyway? I mean if that person has truly walked away from it, the Holy Spirit wouldn't be tugging on them anymore. They would really have no desire to want to walk back, right?

 

I don't think a 10yo can do that. I don't even think most adults can do it, because to reject God irrevocably means to say "I understand all about You and what You are doing, and I want no part of it." Most of us do not gain that kind of understanding in this lifetime.

 

So I think that even when someone has walked away from God, there is nearly always a way back. It might be a long way, but it's not impossible. And IMO it might not happen in this lifetime, but that doesn't mean it's not possible after this life. Our stories are nowhere near finished.

 

It's important to be able to say no to God, though. He won't force us into heaven if we don't want to go. That choice has to exist (IMO), which is why I disagree with the idea of universal salvation--not everyone will want to be saved. God wants as many of us as possible and He welcomes us home, but he won't make us go.

[Quiver0f10]

.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[fairfarmhand]

I struggle with those moments too. I keep in mind that as long as I am struggling, I am okay with God. He loves you even in the struggles.

 

Will be keeping you in my prayers.

[Katy]

I highly recommend getting the Stormy Omartian book Power of a Praying Woman and especially focusing on the prayers about faith and about fear. I like her books because they are about praying scripture. One about faith:

Lord, increase my faith. Teach me how to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). Give me strength to stand on Your promises and believe Your every word. I don't want to be like the people who did not profit from hearing the Word because it wasn't mixed with faith (Hebrews 4:2). I know that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Make my faith increase

every time I hear or read Your Word. Help me to believe for Your promises to be fulfilled in me. I pray that the genuineness of my faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even when it is tested by fire, will be glorifying to You, Lord (1 Peter 1:7).

 

I know "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). I know I have been "saved through faith," and it is a gift from You (Ephesians 2:8). Increase my faith so that I can pray in power. Give me faith to believe for healing every time I pray for the sick. I don't want to see a need and then not have faith strong enough to pray and believe for the situation to change.

Help me to take the "shield of faith" to "quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one" (Ephesians 6:16). Help me "to ask in faith, with no doubting." For I know that "he who doubts is like a wave in the sea driven and tossed by the wind." I know that a doubter is double-minded and unstable and will not receive anything from You (James 1:6-8). I know that "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). I confess any doubt I have as sin before You and I ask You to forgive me. I don't want to hinder what You want to do in me and through me because of doubt. Increase my faith daily so that I can move mountains in Your name.

 

God's Promises to me:

(excerpted)

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:6-7

Also, don't confuse being conflicted about certain doctrines, which may be wrong, with being conflicted about your faith. I've had friends that genuinely had an amazing salvation experience, got involved with ministry, and got so caught up in doctrines meant to govern people at a church that they lost track of God in favor of following empty rules. Galatians and Ephesians both speak at length about empty, rules based systems that make it difficult to hear the Lord. All things are permissible to you, but not all things benefit you.

 

Also, purely on intuition, I think you may want to research spiritual abuse.

 

ETA: I don't know anything about the theology of these sites, so please take them at face value, but here are some discussions of spiritual abuse: 1 2 3

Edited August 25, 2012 by Katy

[Murphy101]

Jean,

 

I do hope you can find some comfort in knowing some of the greatest Christians/saints in history had the same or possibly greater struggles. You aren't alone in your struggle and it doesn't mean God has abandoned you anymore than He abandoned Jesus during his agony in the garden. I hope this passes and you find some peace.:grouphug:

[Parrothead]

I am reading this thread with interest as I have always believed that one can not lose salvation but have someone very dear to me who believes otherwise.

 

I am wondering - what does endure mean? Many have mentioned we must endure to the end but what does this mean?

 

Also, what if one has walked away at some point and then suddenly dies, if by chance it happened while one was away from God does that mean that one is then condemned?

We will not know in this life. It is possible that at the last nanosecond the person could have asked forgiveness and received it.

[milovany]

Jean, I will pray for you. Some asked above "What does endure mean?" in relation to the teaching "(S)he who endures to the end will be saved," and I think what you have posted is descriptive of where the rubber meets the road. It's okay to struggle, it's okay to question, it's okay to wonder -- but hold on, don't let go. Endure. I know I have said in my heart at times, "Lord, I know nothing else right now, but I do know you exist and that you created all this. Please help me." We have "eternity in our hearts" ~ I can question everything around me, but ever since converting to Christianity in college, I've not been able to question His very existence.

 

:grouphug:

[Parrothead]

 

I would be very grateful for prayers ...

Yes, of course. :grouphug:

[justamouse]

Jean,

 

I do hope you can find some comfort in knowing some of the greatest Christians/saints in history had the same or possibly greater struggles. You aren't alone in your struggle and it doesn't mean God has abandoned you anymore than He abandoned Jesus during his agony in the garden. I hope this passes and you find some peace.:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

It came out that Mother Teresa, herself, struggled her whole life with doubt.

 

It came as a shock to many in the believing world to learn this summer that Mother Teresa, one of the most famous religious figures over the last century, lived much of her life tormented by doubt. In letters and private reflections recently published, she longs for God, as for a husband who is indifferent to her. She writes, "In my heart, there is no faith. I want God with all the powers of my soul, and yet between us there is terrible separation."

 

During her lifetime, Mother Teresa was criticized for begging for money from the corrupt of the world, for raving against abortion and contraception, for caring for the poor of Calcutta but not fighting to alleviate the causes of poverty. Now, some of her critics gloat and say that Mother Teresa has been exposed as a hypocrite.

 

But within Christianity, doubt has often been part of a holy life. Mystics and saints admit to the dark night of the soul. Even Christ on the cross cries out that he has been forsaken by God.

 

:grouphug:

 

You are not alone.

 

Here's more.

 

Yet less than three months earlier, in a letter to a spiritual confidant, the Rev. Michael van der Peet, that is only now being made public, she wrote with weary familiarity of a different Christ, an absent one. "Jesus has a very special love for you," she assured Van der Peet. "[but] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have [a] free hand."

 

Why she persevered?

 

 

“Mother Teresa used to say that all the time,” he explained. “She’d count it off on her five fingers. It’s from scripture — ‘whatsoever you do to the least of these, you did to me.’ She always wanted people to remember that.”

[VaKim]

'Tis a Point I Long to Know

by John Newton (pastor and writer of Amazing Grace)

'Tis a point I long to know,

Oft it causes anxious thought;

Do I love the Lord, or no?

Am I His, or am I not?

 

If I am, why am I thus?

Why this dull and lifeless frame?

Hardly, sure, can they be worse,

Who have never heard His name!

 

Could my heart so hard remain,

Pray'r a task and burden prove;

Ev'ry trifle give me pain,

If I knew a Saviour's love?

 

When I turn my eyes within,

All is dark, and vain, and wild;

Fill'd with unbelief and sin,

Can I deem myself a child?

 

If I pray, or hear, or read,

Sin is mix'd with all I do;

You that love the Lord indeed,

Tell me, Is it so with you?

 

Yet I mourn my stubborn will,

Find my sin, a grief, and thrall;

Should I grieve for what I feel,

If I did not love at all?

 

Could I joy His saints to meet,

Choose the ways I once abhorr'd,

Find, at times, the promise sweet,

If I did not love the Lord?

 

Lord decide the doubtful case!

Thou Who art Thy people's sun;

Shine upon Thy work of grace,

If it be indeed begun.

 

Let me love Thee more and more,

If I love at all, I pray;

If I have not lov'd before,

Help me to begin today.

[VaKim]

Answer to "Tis a Point"

by John Newton's Friend, Daniel Herbert

 

What is this point you long to know,

Methinks I hear you say, 'tis this -

I want to know I'm born of God,

An heir of everlasting bliss.

 

Is this the point you long to know?

The point is settled in my view -

For if you want to love your God,

It proves He first loved you.

 

I want to know Christ died for me,

I want to feel the seal within;

I want to know Christ's precious blood,

Was shed to wash away my sin.

 

I want to feel more love to Christ,

I want more liberty in prayer;

But when I looked within my heart,

It almost drives me to despair.

 

I want a mind more firmly fixed,

On Christ, my everlasting Head;

I want to feel my soul alive,

And not so barren and so dead.

 

I want more faith, a stronger faith,

I want to feel it's power within;

I want to feel more love to God,

I want to feel less love to sin.

 

I want to live above the world,

And count it all but trash and toys;

I want more tokens of God's grace,

Some foretaste of eternal joys.

 

I want - I know not what I want,

I want that real, special good;

Yet all my wants are summed up here,

I want to love! I want my God!

 

Is this the point you long to know?

The dead can neither feel nor see;

It is the slave that's bound in chains,

That knows the worth of liberty.

 

So where a want like this is found,

I think I may be bold to say:

That God has fixed within thy heart,

What hell can never take away.

 

However small thy grace appears,

There's plenty in thy Living Head;

These wants you feel, my Christian friend,

Were never found amongst the dead.

[VaKim]

Those poems have brought me comfort many times. I hope they do the same for someone else.

[Quiver0f10]

I highly recommend getting the Stormy Omartian book Power of a Praying Woman and especially focusing on the prayers about faith and about fear. I like her books because they are about praying scripture. One about faith:

Lord, increase my faith. Teach me how to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). Give me strength to stand on Your promises and believe Your every word. I don't want to be like the people who did not profit from hearing the Word because it wasn't mixed with faith (Hebrews 4:2). I know that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Make my faith increase

every time I hear or read Your Word. Help me to believe for Your promises to be fulfilled in me. I pray that the genuineness of my faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even when it is tested by fire, will be glorifying to You, Lord (1 Peter 1:7).

 

I know "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). I know I have been "saved through faith," and it is a gift from You (Ephesians 2:8). Increase my faith so that I can pray in power. Give me faith to believe for healing every time I pray for the sick. I don't want to see a need and then not have faith strong enough to pray and believe for the situation to change.

 

Help me to take the "shield of faith" to "quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one" (Ephesians 6:16). Help me "to ask in faith, with no doubting." For I know that "he who doubts is like a wave in the sea driven and tossed by the wind." I know that a doubter is double-minded and unstable and will not receive anything from You (James 1:6-8). I know that "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). I confess any doubt I have as sin before You and I ask You to forgive me. I don't want to hinder what You want to do in me and through me because of doubt. Increase my faith daily so that I can move mountains in Your name.

 

 

God's Promises to me:

(excerpted)

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

1 Peter 1:6-7

 

Also, don't confuse being conflicted about certain doctrines, which may be wrong, with being conflicted about your faith. I've had friends that genuinely had an amazing salvation experience, got involved with ministry, and got so caught up in doctrines meant to govern people at a church that they lost track of God in favor of following empty rules. Galatians and Ephesians both speak at length about empty, rules based systems that make it difficult to hear the Lord. All things are permissible to you, but not all things benefit you.

 

Also, purely on intuition, I think you may want to research spiritual abuse.

 

ETA: I don't know anything about the theology of these sites, so please take them at face value, but here are some discussions of spiritual abuse: 1 2 3

 

 

Thank you for sharing those excepts. They meant a lot to me.

[Chris in VA]

Those were so lovely, Kim. I really appreciate it!

 

Quiv (if I may call you Quiv ;)) I will pray for you. Lately God has pricked my heart to pray for others. It would be my priviledge.

[tvaleri]

Great time of bible study today. Word study on believe vs. faith:

 

believe, verb, Gr. pisteuo, is to be persuaded of, hence, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not merely credence.

 

faith, noun, Gr. pistis, is a firm persuasion based on hearing.

 

The main elements in faith in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from faith in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb. They are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth (2) a personal surrender to Him, and (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender.

 

Ex. Abraham's faith wasn't in God's promise, it was in God Himself. Hence, Ab's faith was credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). Gen 15:6; Romans 4:1-5

 

The point being there is much emphasis today in Christendom as a whole, on an experience versus conversion. Salvation is a gift from God in which He has provided atonement for our sin (sin not because we say it's sin, but because He does in His word).

 

We are continually being saved as we endure. Does this make us more righteous in His sight? No. But at the judgement seat of Christ (different from the Great Judgement) we will receive rewards to be placed at His feet.

 

Salvation is completed once we are in His presence. WooHoo!

 

He is grace. He gave His all. He sought out a covenant relationship with fallen humanity. He paid the high price required by His holiness. He extends this grace gift to whomsoever will believe. "He desires that none should perish, but all come to eternal life." So why do some perish? Because He allows it in His permissive will (iow, things He permits though it breaks His heart).

 

Let us consider God's perfect will versus His permissive will. In His perfect will, all come to salvation and live for His glory. In His permissive will, He allows us to make dumb choices---and live with the consequences.

 

The verses to which Quiver originally referred, in context, relate to those who are false teachers who preach false good news thus making false converts. Yet, these followers are accountable for their actions because we are all called "to study to show yourself approved." 2Timothy 2:15.

 

Contending for the faith,

Teresa

 

 

"No prophecy* of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21

 

*prophecy: speaking forth the mind and counsel of God

[Quiver0f10]

Those were so lovely, Kim. I really appreciate it!

 

Quiv (if I may call you Quiv ;)) I will pray for you. Lately God has pricked my heart to pray for others. It would be my priviledge.

 

Thank you so much!

[Quiver0f10]

.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[Quiver0f10]

.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[Chris in VA]

You know, Jean...

 

Once, about 15 years ago or so, I felt far from God, and, though I could say I was a Christian and I loved Him, I just was overwhelmed with an insecure feeling re my salvation. I had struggled with depression the past year, even to the point of hopelessness, but had gotten help and was slowly climbing out of the pit. It still had a bit of a grip on me.

 

I went to a special "retreat" called Cursillo (the name or type isn't important, tho) a few months after we moved to TX. The first night, I got my name tag. I looked down only to see Chris BEnder, not Binder.

 

It was the last straw.

 

"Crap." I despaired.

"Even my d@mn nametag is wrong."

 

Then God slipped a verse into my mind--which, for an Episcopalian who didn't know but a handful of verses, was really quite something (;)):Isaiah 43:1 (paraphrased)

 

"Fear not, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name, and YOU are MINE."

 

I couldn't believe it--it was exactly what I had been struggling with. God used a silly nametag and my pride to tell me something so sweet to my heart, so relieving of my pain and doubt.

 

I kept that nametag, even with its misspelling, even wearing it when I staffed Cursillo the next year, because it reminds me of a great Truth--I do not have to depend on my mercurial feelings or be hobbled in my belief by my chronic depression. I can know God loves me, wants me, chooses me, embraces me...I AM HIS. Even in doubt, even in disobedience, even in crisis, even in want, even in pride.

 

I pray you will come to a place where you can rest in his love for you.

[Quiver0f10]

Those poems have brought me comfort many times. I hope they do the same for someone else.

 

 

Thank you for the poems! Beautiful!

[Quiver0f10]

Jean, you know what verse come to MY mind, re: your question?

 

"Lord, I believe. Help Thou my unbelief!" I think to some degree, we all have some unbelief. Some doubt. If we truly believed, our lives would look different--we would love more, fear less, be kind instead of angry, merciful instead of condemning. So it is a matter of degree.

 

When Jesus asks the disciples, "Are you, too, going to leave?" they response, "Where else shall we go, Lord? You alone have the words of life." Sometimes, this is the knot in the end of the rope. Where else shall I go?

 

One of the closing lines of our prayers calles Jesus "the only lover of mankind." This line strikes me, because sometimes it is very hard to follow Christ--to turn the other cheek, to serve, to pray for my enemies, to forgive those who use us. I don't do these things very well on the best of days. But you know, I don't want to live in a world where these things are not done, and so it is up to me to do my part to do them. God knows I need others to pray for me, forgive me, serve me...etc. So where else shall I go?

 

And in the face of it all, the undoing of the power of sin--the Resurrection, turning back the tide of death--is the proof of hope. So I don't know where else to go.

 

Some days are more doubting than others. God knows that. He's closer to you than your breath, and He loves you all the time.

 

I believe you can *reject* God, and that He will give you your way. But I don't sense in you the *rejection* as much as a malaise and doubting, and that is a very different thing.

 

Hang in there, endure to the end, pick up your daily cross--even if today, you don't know why. Or wonder if it matters. It matters. You matter.

 

God be with you, Jean.

 

Patty Joanna

 

 

.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[Quiver0f10]

You know, Jean...

 

Once, about 15 years ago or so, I felt far from God, and, though I could say I was a Christian and I loved Him, I just was overwhelmed with an insecure feeling re my salvation. I had struggled with depression the past year, even to the point of hopelessness, but had gotten help and was slowly climbing out of the pit. It still had a bit of a grip on me.

 

I went to a special "retreat" called Cursillo (the name or type isn't important, tho) a few months after we moved to TX. The first night, I got my name tag. I looked down only to see Chris BEnder, not Binder.

 

It was the last straw.

 

"Crap." I despaired.

"Even my d@mn nametag is wrong."

 

Then God slipped a verse into my mind--which, for an Episcopalian who didn't know but a handful of verses, was really quite something (;)):Isaiah 43:1 (paraphrased)

 

"Fear not, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name, and YOU are MINE."

 

I couldn't believe it--it was exactly what I had been struggling with. God used a silly nametag and my pride to tell me something so sweet to my heart, so relieving of my pain and doubt.

 

I kept that nametag, even with its misspelling, even wearing it when I staffed Cursillo the next year, because it reminds me of a great Truth--I do not have to depend on my mercurial feelings or be hobbled in my belief by my chronic depression. I can know God loves me, wants me, chooses me, embraces me...I AM HIS. Even in doubt, even in disobedience, even in crisis, even in want, even in pride.

 

I pray you will come to a place where you can rest in his love for you.

 

Thank you Chris. I love that. I so want to believe that promise is for me. I am writing down verses on index cards and praying through them as much as I can. I times I feel so real and then others they are just words on the page. I need to get to where it doesn't matter what I feel but KNOW they are truth. I know that God gives faith and I am begging Him to give me the faith to endure.

[milovany]

Jean, I think a person would KNOW they're walking away from God. It will be a , "I'm done with you" choice that shows itself in words and/or actions. It would be huge in your life and you'd KNOW you're doing it. Many on this board have said they've done it (I'm writing that as a statement of fact, not judgment). It could happen, I suppose, slowly over time, but the way you're writing, I don't think you're even on that road (as Patty Joanna said).

 

Where are you with church? Do you have a fellowship that helps you and encourages you?

[Quiver0f10]

Jean, I think a person would KNOW they're walking away from God. It will be a , "I'm done with you" choice that shows itself in words and/or actions. It would be huge in your life and you'd KNOW you're doing it. Many on this board have said they've done it (I'm writing that as a statement of fact, not judgment). It could happen, I suppose, slowly over time, but the way you're writing, I don't think you're even on that road (as Patty Joanna said).

 

Where are you with church? Do you have a fellowship that helps you and encourages you?

 

I do have a wonderful church and my pator has been helping me work through this.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Quiver0f10

[Quiver0f10]

I think i reject God all the time when I doubt what He says, both about himself and about me. I reject Him when I don't obey Him. I'm kind of like a teenager in a lot of ways. :0/

 

That said, there's a big difference between having a slow spell in a relationship and filing for divorce, which is kind of what I sense in your distinctions. I have had a lot of desert times, slow times in relationship with God. And it's only now, in my 50s, that I, too, have had some of the similar concerns you have expressed here. I wonder how much of it is sort of part of being older, of taking a good hard look at what it is that one wants to do with what is left of one's life?

 

In the Sermon on the Mount, we are given 5 spiritual tools for walking with God. Prayer, fasting, charity, trust, and not judging one another. These are tools we can use to work on our relationship with God. It's sort of like how one has to work on a marriage, even when one loves the spouse, it still takes work. Well, these five things are ways that we can work on our relationship with Christ.

 

May I give you a couple of prayers that you can pray, along with the Lord's Prayer, each day? These are favorites of mine and have been pretty helpful over time, as I call them up again and again in the day. I hope these are helpful to you.

 

--Patty Joanna

----------------------

 

Morning: Lord, give me the strength to greet the coming day in peace. Help me in all things to rely on Your holy will. Reveal Your will to me every hour of the day. Bless my dealings with all people. Teach me to treat all people who come to me throughout the day with peace of soul and with firm conviction that Your will governs all. In all my deeds and words guide my thoughts and feelings. In unexpected events, let me not forget that all are sent by you. Teach me to act firmly and wisely, without embittering and embarrassing others. Give me the physical strength to bear the labors of this day. Direct my will, teach me to pray, pray in me. Amen.

 

And another prayer:

My Lord, I know not what I ought to ask of Thee.

Thou and Thou alone knowest my needs.

Thou lovest me more than I am able to love Thee.

O Father, grant unto me, Thy servant, all which I cannot ask.

For a cross I dare not ask, nor for consolation;

I dare only to stand in Thy presence.

My heart is open to Thee.

Thou seest my needs of which I myself am unaware.

Behold and lift me up!

In Thy presence I stand,

awed and silenced by Thy will and Thy judgments,

into which my mind cannot penetrate.

To Thee I offer myself as a sacrifice.

No other desire is mine but to fulfill Thy will.

Teach me how to pray.

Do Thyself pray within me.

Amen.

 

Thank you. Those prayers are beautiful!

[Parrothead]

Doubting is not rejecting. By doubting you will grow in your faith. Perhaps you should look forward to that.

[Parrothead]

Jean, I think a person would KNOW they're walking away from God. It will be a , "I'm done with you" choice that shows itself in words and/or actions. It would be huge in your life and you'd KNOW you're doing it. Many on this board have said they've done it (I'm writing that as a statement of fact, not judgment). It could happen, I suppose, slowly over time, but the way you're writing, I don't think you're even on that road (as Patty Joanna said).

 

Where are you with church? Do you have a fellowship that helps you and encourages you?

:iagree: with the bolded.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Hey quiver just going to jump in to say best of luck with it. I really get this. I don't know if it would be helpful or not..just gonna throw it out there though...when it gets like that for me...I just tell myself that God is not the author of confusion. I try to keep it simple as I can.

[HappyCrazyMama]

Doubting is not rejecting. By doubting you will grow in your faith. Perhaps you should look forward to that.

:iagree: And I just had a thought, doubting is being unsure of it all and wouldn't rejecting God mean that you know he is real but you don't want anything to do with Him? You can't truly reject something you don't believe exists can you? So then I wonder if no longer believing or having a period of unbelief is different than outright rejecting God. Sorry I don't think my pondering is much help.:grouphug: I will pray for you!

[Quiver0f10]

Doubting is not rejecting. By doubting you will grow in your faith. Perhaps you should look forward to that.

 

During sane moments I try to hold onto this. That He is growing me and has a plan in all this.