"Not possible for our children to attend college"

[angela in ohio]

You post reminds me of a movie. It takes place in a world were no body every lies. Then the main character thinks up the idea of lieing - everyone of course believes every world he says since no one had ever lied in the world before.

 

Ick. I got sucked into watching that movie, and we were halfway in before I realized what the agenda was. I thought it was really going to be about lies and truth. Now I read reviews more closely first...

[Sneezyone]

Don't forget books and fees!! In states where tuition hasn't been rising as quickly, many schools have tacked on hefty fees.

 

You post reminds me of a movie. It takes place in a world were no body every lies. Then the main character thinks up the idea of lieing - everyone of course believes every world he says since no one had ever lied in the world before.

 

Oh, and there are Web sites where you can go and plug in your expected/estimated income and expenses during your child's baseline year (the year before college) to see what your Expected Family Contribution (EFC) would be. The calculation does take into account other children and debts, years to retirement, etc. It's not going to give someone a break if they've been a spendthrift for years and bought lots of stuff and done no saving, but I never found it to treat low- or moderate- income folks poorly. I find it's usually middle- and upper-middle class folks (upwards of 80K/year in household income?) who who are stunned to learn that they really are on the upper end of the national income spectrum even if they don't live/feel that way.

[angela in ohio]

The federal aid calculation is based on the idea that parents with the means to pay will dump their kids on the public dole if given the chance. The FAFSA gives parents with bad credit an out *that's how I got to take out my own loans* but parents with good credit and otherwise decent incomes are expected to contribute. If you don't want to pay for your kids, you don't have to, but the amount of aid they're eligible for is based on parental income for a good reason.

 

Yep.

 

Interestingly, we filled out a financial aid form for a private high school, and it asked how much aid we thought we needed. I was suprised. They also took financial info, but it was refreshing to see that they hadn't become too jaded to ask that question. :D

[ChristyB in TN]

Don't forget books and fees!! In states where tuition hasn't been rising as quickly, many schools have tacked on hefty fees.

 

 

yes, the fees. I just paid $285 for a parking permit for my daughter to be able to park on campus. Honestly. :ack2:

 

I was reading today in some article in something I get...a list of ways to save money in college. On the list were things like doing your own laundry on campus because the CAMPUS LAUNDRY SERVICE might cost up to $400 a year. Really? Someone had to write that in an article? There are kids who actually need to save money who need to read that?

[LisaKinVA]

Does the strength of a university or college program simply not matter to anyone's decision calculus?

 

I graduated in 1990...just getting into college has changed dramatically, let alone paying for it. However, even back in 1986, when I was applying to colleges I looked at the strength of the program(s). I didn't bother applying to schools that didn't have my area of study as a solid major, with good success at getting into MA/PhD programs.

 

Today, I'm agonizing with middle and high school trying to create programs that are both well-rounded, and tailored to facilitate the interests/strengths of my children. Does none of this matter anymore for a university program?

 

So many answers I'm reading just seem so cavalier...as if any child can go to any college or CC without regard to their area of study, matriculation agreements, or even how a local university may be regarded in a child's intended area of study.

 

IME, there is more to making a decision about college than "what is the cheapest option." If the "cheapest" option winds up leaving you with an incomplete program, or an unregarded program in a highly competitive field, so that your degree is rendered nearly meaningless, with increased difficulty of being admitted (or making it through) a masters program...is one automatically better off than going to a different school and taking on *some* debt?

 

Is the fact that *I* was able to attend college without assistance from my parents 25 years ago, getting admitted by simply following a standard "college prep" sequence, working 25 hours PT, 3 jobs in the summer, and graduating in 3 years even 100% relevant to what my 5 children might have to do?

 

The closer my oldest gets to high school and college, the more nervous I get. I spend a lot of time with people in academia, and while I'm pretty sure my children are well prepared, I have seen a tremendous increase in the competitiveness for college scholarships. More time is spent today finding ways to help a child "stand out" than I ever had to. It seriously makes me second guess and weigh everything.

 

Everyone I have spoken to currently working/teaching in the fields to which my oldest is inclined have said it is a *much* better use of his time (college-application-acceptance-scholarship-wise) to NOT work part time and instead to volunteer as a counselor at the engineering day camps in our area. Are we listening to the wrong people? These are the people who will be writing his recommendation letters...the ones who are "plugged into the system." The ones who will say, sure he should take the CC classes in high school because they show academic rigor...but they will *not* count towards his degree (well, the state universities say that, too...)

 

IMO, there are no easy, quick, or simple answers to this issue. It's a case-by-case basis. There are lots of options, but nothing is one-size fits all...and if your goal is the local university, you STILL have to get accepted (and FYI sometimes, it is *more* difficult for locals to get into the local university for diversity reasons).

[melmichigan]

My parents didn't pay for my college after one semester (they did pay for my step-brother and step-sisters), and my DH's parents didn't pay for his college. We were both independent by then so I got scholarships, he used the GI Bill and loans that we took out ourselves. If anything, we were more motivated to do well because it was on our dime.

[Momof3littles]

I agree that pedigree does matter in some fields. It can matter when you apply to graduate school, for example, and that's becoming something that more and more students need in order to obtain a decent paying job, IMO.

 

I also agree that certain schools have better internship opportunities available, better reputations among professionals in certain fields and so forth.

 

I chose my school because it was well known in my profession, it had good internship opportunities, and I could do a combined 5 year bachelor's and master's. It is a field with good placement, etc. but it was also expensive. (eta: I could have gone to a less expensive school, but those schools in my field were known to not produce the best-equipped graduates. That also limited the internship opportunities for students from that school, as sites are more likely to open up spots to students from certain schools vs. others).

 

It was also a major that would only accept a few gen ed transfer credits, I could only transfer certain AP credits (for example, I couldn't test out of bio because I needed to take *their* biology geared toward my major), and there was literally no option to reduce course load, go part-time, etc.

 

There are definitely majors where there is not much flexibility. They may not take many transfer credits, may not count CC courses toward the major's requirements, they may not allow a reduced course load, etc. How do you weigh that against a major with more flexibility but perhaps not as promising of employment prospects? That's a tough decision. They may not be mutually exclusive, but sometimes IME they are.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Momof3littles

[Joyofsixreboot]

I haven't read all the responses but that seems way high. It didn't factor in living circumstances, scholarships or jobs? My oldest two received scholarships, commute and work. So far no loans though it's not a party. We kick in what we can. Online classes while working are a possibility. AA degree and then working while doing BS, etc are all possible. Just depends on your creativity.

[Sneezyone]

Does the strength of a university or college program simply not matter to anyone's decision calculus?

 

I graduated in 1990...just getting into college has changed dramatically, let alone paying for it. However, even back in 1986, when I was applying to colleges I looked at the strength of the program(s). I didn't bother applying to schools that didn't have my area of study as a solid major, with good success at getting into MA/PhD programs.

 

Today, I'm agonizing with middle and high school trying to create programs that are both well-rounded, and tailored to facilitate the interests/strengths of my children. Does none of this matter anymore for a university program?

 

So many answers I'm reading just seem so cavalier...as if any child can go to any college or CC without regard to their area of study, matriculation agreements, or even how a local university may be regarded in a child's intended area of study.

 

IME, there is more to making a decision about college than "what is the cheapest option." If the "cheapest" option winds up leaving you with an incomplete program, or an unregarded program in a highly competitive field, so that your degree is rendered nearly meaningless, with increased difficulty of being admitted (or making it through) a masters program...is one automatically better off than going to a different school and taking on *some* debt?

 

Is the fact that *I* was able to attend college without assistance from my parents 25 years ago, getting admitted by simply following a standard "college prep" sequence, working 25 hours PT, 3 jobs in the summer, and graduating in 3 years even 100% relevant to what my 5 children might have to do?

 

The closer my oldest gets to high school and college, the more nervous I get. I spend a lot of time with people in academia, and while I'm pretty sure my children are well prepared, I have seen a tremendous increase in the competitiveness for college scholarships. More time is spent today finding ways to help a child "stand out" than I ever had to. It seriously makes me second guess and weigh everything.

 

Everyone I have spoken to currently working/teaching in the fields to which my oldest is inclined have said it is a *much* better use of his time (college-application-acceptance-scholarship-wise) to NOT work part time and instead to volunteer as a counselor at the engineering day camps in our area. Are we listening to the wrong people? These are the people who will be writing his recommendation letters...the ones who are "plugged into the system." The ones who will say, sure he should take the CC classes in high school because they show academic rigor...but they will *not* count towards his degree (well, the state universities say that, too...)

 

IMO, there are no easy, quick, or simple answers to this issue. It's a case-by-case basis. There are lots of options, but nothing is one-size fits all...and if your goal is the local university, you STILL have to get accepted (and FYI sometimes, it is *more* difficult for locals to get into the local university for diversity reasons).

 

:iagree: You could not/cannot go to my alma mater with CC/outside university credits unless you're attending some of the specific LOCAL CC's that have established matriculation agreements and/or you get your outside univ. class PRE-APPROVED by the transfer office. I also chose my alma mater based on the program. At the time, there were only a handful of undergraduate programs in that discipline and it's afforded me a stable and portable career.

 

Research also shows (and this was big when I worked in MS/HS guidance counseling) that kids who start at a 4-year school, especially first generation college students and low-income students, are far more likely to complete a degree if they begin at a 4-year school. Whether it's due to the peer pressure and dicipline of being at a reasearch univ. or the age/demographics of the students who attend, the average 18yo is more likely to finish if they start at a four-year school.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Sneezyone
typos

[LisaKinVA]

I find it's usually middle- and upper-middle class folks (upwards of 80K/year in household income?) who who are stunned to learn that they really are on the upper end of the national income spectrum even if they don't live/feel that way.

 

If dh and I still lived in Ft. Smith, AR making $80k a year would be a tremendous income. In No.VA, though housing costs are nearly triple what we paid there. IMO, that's a HUGE problem with FAFSA.

[amy g.]

It might be regional, but here the state schools do accept credits from the community colleges.

 

If someone wants to go to a private college, that is great if they can afford it, or can get scholarships, or want to borrow for it.

 

In Texas, we are backward.

 

A friend who got a full ride from Princeton has regretted the fact that here, it is much easier to get hired with a degree from UT or A&M. People see his reseme andare automatically prejudiced against him. I told you we were backward.

 

I am sure that you are right about what is needed to be successful in your part of the county, but that doesn't make us wrong about what works here.

[QueenCat]

The federal aid calculation is based on the idea that parents with the means to pay will dump their kids on the public dole if given the chance. The FAFSA gives parents with bad credit an out *that's how I got to take out my own loans* but parents with good credit and otherwise decent incomes are expected to contribute. If you don't want to pay for your kids, you don't have to, but the amount of aid they're eligible for is based on parental income for a good reason.

 

Bad credit isn't going to give you a way to reduce your EFC on the FAFSA. No where does it ask about your overall debt or credit score. Someone with thousands on a credit card with the same income as someone without the credit card debt won't have any benefit due to the credit debt.

[Sneezyone]

No no, that's not what I meant. You're right, bad credit doesn't reduce the EFC...it just means that the parent is ineligible to borrow to meet the EFC (through the PLUS Loan program) and that the student can borrow it instead (from the feds through the Supplemental loan program). Someone has to pay up but the feds only allow the student to borrow from them to meet the EFC *if* the parent can't or the student is independent. There was a stretch there where my mother and I were not on speaking terms and I was still required to get her info. for the FAFSA. My mom was working again, and could have helped (she bought my sister a brand new car, for ex) but I ended up having to take out a loan from the university directly...federal aid was impossible.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

If dh and I still lived in Ft. Smith, AR making $80k a year would be a tremendous income. In No.VA, though housing costs are nearly triple what we paid there. IMO, that's a HUGE problem with FAFSA.

 

True. This is why DH and I are holding on to our house here. It'll be paid off when DD is a frosh in college and his retirement will go a lot further.

[angela in ohio]

Does the strength of a university or college program simply not matter to anyone's decision calculus?

 

It matters to us, so we have planned accordingly. But you have to make choices based on what you have put into it so far, what your options are, etc.

 

We have our dc volunteering instead of working for pay and taking cc classes that may never transfer, too. I'm comfortable with that, because we have taken steps - academically and financially - to allow for that. If we were in a different situation, I would advise that they work all summer, save money, take CC classes for the first year or two, and take a small amount of loans to make it work. But only for a degree that was worth the investment. We have seen friends use the 2+2 options, campus jobs, summer emplyment, scholarships, and wise choices about degrees to end up very well financially.

[ErinE]

In Texas, we are backward.

 

A friend who got a full ride from Princeton has regretted the fact that here, it is much easier to get hired with a degree from UT or A&M. People see his reseme andare automatically prejudiced against him. I told you we were backward.

 

Having worked in Texas and other states with state school and Ivy League alumni, I understand the desire to hire from non-Ivy schools. I can't tell you how many employees I heard exclaim they didn't go to XXX prestigious school to make copies or crunch numbers or staple together presentations or [iNSERT LOW-LEVEL, ENTRY WORK TASK HERE]. Many had a level of self-esteem and elitism that reflected poorly on their work relations. Whereas state school kids were grateful to have jobs and worked hard to keep it. It's not backward; it's based on experience.

[PeacefulChaos]

Ick. I got sucked into watching that movie, and we were halfway in before I realized what the agenda was. I thought it was really going to be about lies and truth. Now I read reviews more closely first...

Ok, I'm curious...what movie is it? :)

Don't forget books and fees!! In states where tuition hasn't been rising as quickly, many schools have tacked on hefty fees.

 

 

yes, the fees. I just paid $285 for a parking permit for my daughter to be able to park on campus. Honestly. :ack2:

 

I was reading today in some article in something I get...a list of ways to save money in college. On the list were things like doing your own laundry on campus because the CAMPUS LAUNDRY SERVICE might cost up to $400 a year. Really? Someone had to write that in an article? There are kids who actually need to save money who need to read that?

 

:lol: Ahh... more helpful 'money saving tips', similar to those telling us to stop going out for coffee everyday (make our own? What?! :lol: ) and order water when we go out to eat. :D :lol:

 

FTR, I do think it matters that the university has a good program for whatever it is the student is interested in. It doesn't factor much into the grand scheme of things for me personally, because I highly doubt I'll contribute anything to my kids' college education either way. :)

[amy g.]

Sorry for my typos. I am so old that I can barely see the type on my phone. I should go switch for the iPad.

[Tarreymere]

The federal aid calculation is based on the idea that parents with the means to pay will dump their kids on the public dole if given the chance. The FAFSA gives parents with bad credit an out *that's how I got to take out my own loans* but parents with good credit and otherwise decent incomes are expected to contribute. If you don't want to pay for your kids, you don't have to, but the amount of aid they're eligible for is based on parental income for a good reason.

 

 

I disagree. My parents were working class low income, but because of their cultural beliefs that a female should not attend college they refused to provide me with their financial information or social security numbers, thereby preventing me from applying for financial aid for college after I graduated from high school. I was literally held hostage and prevented from applying to college by the federal student aid program, and I was forced to conform to my parent's out-worn cultural prohibition against female higher education. This is a situation that still affects thousands of young women even today. Thank you federal government!

 

In my case, I forged my mother's signature on enlistment documents for the US Army (I was seventeen) and left town. Other girls in my situation weren't quite so bold. I knew several friends from high school who were literally trapped at home with little or no income, few jobs available that their families would approve of and permit them to work, and denied the opportunity for further schooling until they were finally eligible to apply for financial aid on their own at the age of twenty one. And more than one succumbed to the pressure and were married with children by then........

Edited August 21, 2012 by Rainefox

[-M-]

Does the strength of a university or college program simply not matter to anyone's decision calculus?

 

It matters to our decision, which is why we reviewed the transfer agreements the local college has with both state and private universities before settling in this area.

[Caroline]

I'm not sure if this has been answered yet but it's definitely changed since I had it years ago. It did pay for everything. Now, however, it pays only a portion of the hourly tuition rate, which I'm interpreting to mean they do not pay anything towards the mandatory fees that are separate from tuition. I've also heard it no longer offers any money towards books. And last, homeschoolers that are not in an eligible program can get it only retroactively after maintaining a B average as a college freshman. I was trying to find information on it for dd20. More information can be found at GAcollege411.

 

Our oldest is a senior in high school. Based on this year's costs, it will cost us $16,000 a year for Georgia Tech with the Hope. This price is based on living on campus.

[FaithManor]

I disagree. My parents were working class low income, but because of their cultural beliefs that a female should not attend college they refused to provide me with their financial information or social security numbers, thereby preventing me from applying for financial aid for college after I graduated from high school. I was literally held hostage and prevented from applying to college by the federal student aid program, and I was forced to conform to my parent's out-worn cultural prohibition against female higher education. This is a situation that still affects thousands of young women even today. Thank you federal government!

 

In my case, I forged my mother's signature on enlistment documents for the US Army (I was seventeen) and left town. Other girls in my situation weren't quite so bold. I knew several friends from high school who were literally trapped at home with little or no income, few jobs available that their families would approve of and permit them to work, and denied the opportunity for further schooling until they were finally eligible to apply for financial aid on their own at the age of twenty one. And more than one succumbed to the pressure and were married with children by then........

 

 

NUTS isn't it??? :glare: My nephew was held hostage by his mother who is a lazy b&tt and won't fill out a piece of paperwork to be helpful to anyone. Her income wasn't great...he could have gotten decent financial aid, but she just simply wouldn't do it. He left home and didn't have ANY contact with her for three years but that's not enough to be declared independent where FASFA is concerned.

 

Faith

[Scarlett]

People get panicked by the horror stories such as the girl attending NYU with no merit aid, financial aid, or campus job who has $125,000.00 debt for, if memory serves, a teaching degree! These kinds of stories get splashed across the news and yet the national average for student loans hovers around $13,000.00. DD is halfway through her chem degree with no debt and she didn't get a full ride scholarship at U of M. She's been wise about it...dh and I had $6,000 to give her during her freshman year - that's all her 529 was worth after putting more than $20,000 in it because she had to have the money the year of the great real estate collapse and most conservative investments went straight down the toilet!!!!! She's managed just fine since then...again no debt. She'll finish without debt just at 24 instead of 22. But, her paramedic job has very good health insurance and with overtime, the pay is fine for a single girl. She's saving a lot of money and paying rent at grandma and grandpa's house since they've got a nice quiet set-up for her while she works nights and our house is not so conducive to her sleeping days here. She doesn't pay a lot in rent, but it really helps them out.

 

There are ways to get out without crushing debt. Much of it is choosing wisely, applying to several institutions to see what they offer, looking for creative housing and meal options, choosing a major that will have decent employment options upon graduation, campus jobs, tutoring in an area of strength - WAY back in the mists of time, I got more than double the regular wage on campus for tutoring - etc. Check out the college board. There are a bunch of homeschooling moms there that have students in college now and none of us are reporting heinous debt for our students. Don't let the horror stories be your guide. Most students do not have that level of debt.

 

Faith

 

Great post and I agree totally.

[hsmamainva]

My oldest chose the 2+2 plan.

 

She attended the community college first (rough price tag $2500 per year -- that includes books, tuition, and gas to and from) and earned her AA degree.

 

She leaves Thursday for a 4-year in-state public university. She'll enter as a Junior and the price tag is $17,600 (that includes room, board, tuition, books, spending money and traveling expenses). All of it is covered by FAFSA / financial aid. Of that amount, $6,000.00 is in the form of loans that she will have to pay back.

 

But...more than $11,000 was in the form of grants that she doesn't have to pay back at all.

 

So she'll graduate with her BA degree and owe around $15,000 that she'll have to pay back.

[Scarlett]

NUTS isn't it??? :glare: My nephew was held hostage by his mother who is a lazy b&tt and won't fill out a piece of paperwork to be helpful to anyone. Her income wasn't great...he could have gotten decent financial aid, but she just simply wouldn't do it. He left home and didn't have ANY contact with her for three years but that's not enough to be declared independent where FASFA is concerned.

 

Faith

 

THAT is nuts. Nuts. Reminds me of the book "Love Story" where the rich boy's family cut him off financially but he could not get a DIME of help anywhere. Crazy.

[Scarlett]

My oldest chose the 2+2 plan.

 

She attended the community college first (rough price tag $2500 per year -- that includes books, tuition, and gas to and from) and earned her AA degree.

 

She leaves Thursday for a 4-year in-state public university. She'll enter as a Junior and the price tag is $17,600 (that includes room, board, tuition, books, spending money and traveling expenses). All of it is covered by FAFSA / financial aid. Of that amount, $6,000.00 is in the form of loans that she will have to pay back.

 

But...more than $11,000 was in the form of grants that she doesn't have to pay back at all.

 

So she'll graduate with her BA degree and owe around $15,000 that she'll have to pay back.

 

That is impressive.

[hsmamainva]

That is impressive.

 

Thanks. :)

 

We're so proud of her! She was accepted at all 5 of the colleges that she applied to and she based her decision on which one offered her the best financial aid package.

 

She actually turned down her 1st choice school, because they offered her $20,000 in financial aid, but half of that was in the form of loans and she realized that wasn't what she wanted (to start working and already behind the proverbial eight ball with debt).

[Sneezyone]

I disagree. My parents were working class low income, but because of their cultural beliefs that a female should not attend college they refused to provide me with their financial information or social security numbers, thereby preventing me from applying for financial aid for college after I graduated from high school. I was literally held hostage and prevented from applying to college by the federal student aid program, and I was forced to conform to my parent's out-worn cultural prohibition against female higher education. This is a situation that still affects thousands of young women even today. Thank you federal government!

 

In my case, I forged my mother's signature on enlistment documents for the US Army (I was seventeen) and left town. Other girls in my situation weren't quite so bold. I knew several friends from high school who were literally trapped at home with little or no income, few jobs available that their families would approve of and permit them to work, and denied the opportunity for further schooling until they were finally eligible to apply for financial aid on their own at the age of twenty one. And more than one succumbed to the pressure and were married with children by then........

 

That is a risk of these policies, sure. I indicated in a later post how my mother refused to help me when we were on the outs while she was buying my underachieving younger sibling new wheels. Fortunately, my school was slightly more enlightened and allowed me to take out a university direct loan so I could continue my education. Financial aid offices do have some discretion (at least at private, well-endowed schools they do). It's not perfect but it is gov't money. Rarely does it come with no strings attached.

[MidwesternMom]

Our oldest is a freshman with a nearly full-ride scholarship, but honestly, even paying for the rest and books (more than $500 for four classes this semester--and one of them doesn't have a book!) is a strain and we have a line of younger siblings behind her. It has really been brought home to us how much more saving and we should have done.

 

At the same time, choosing a school that gave her that scholarship over a more expensive and prestigious school that offered much less was a good call, and one she made herself. Meanwhile, her cousin chose a school based entirely on location rather than cost (!) and will be racking up debt from day one. There's a lesson there, but not one I'd want my kids to learn if I can help it.

[StephanieZ]

Well, I know this is a tough issue.

 

I think there are a lot of options for lower cost college.

 

If you are still in GA, there are HOPE scholarships. http://www.gacollege411.org/Financial_Aid_Planning/HOPE_Program/Georgia_s_HOPE_Scholarship_Program_Overview.aspx

 

Many other states have similar program which offer free tuition for high achievers.

 

If you live where a child can live at home (or with a friendly relative) and attend a school on scholarship, costs should be very low, in line with what you spend supporting them as a child. Also, they can work in summers +/- part time during the year to help with expenses.

 

If your family earns very little, your child should be eligible for substantial financial aid at many schools. If you earn too much for financial aid, hopefully you will be able to help a little bit.

 

Using Community College, CLEP, AP, dual enrollment, etc, allows many children to finish college quickly and with less cost.

 

Many elite colleges offer generous aid to nearly all applicants. Some of the top Ivies have zero cost for incomes under a substantial amount (70/80k?) and then cap family contribution at about 10% of family income for higher incomes. So, if your kids have the potential to reach for the stars, then foster it.

 

TBH, I would never, ever, in a million years, send an email like that to anyone. If dh sent something like that to his parents or other relatives, I would either drop dead from mortification or block him from internet access indefinitely, lol. Such an email seems to invite either criticism (which you got) or charity (which I think should be asked for upfront if that is what one is looking for). Paying for college NOW is not like it was 20 or 30 years ago. 10 years from now, it will be different yet again. Presumably, your dh was just looking for BTDT advice and/or guidance/support/venting . . . but, really, NOONE can give you or him BTDT advice, b/c they don't have YOUR kids or YOUR income or YOUR needs/values, etc. These things are very individual.

 

I'd buy dh some books on paying for college, try to budget as well as you can and save what you can, educate them well, and hope for the best. And, I'd make sure dh stayed off the email! ;)

 

(((hugs)))

[creekland]

I know people have different thoughts about loans, but I'm not sure saddling a 21 year old with $50,000+ in loans is what we consider a viable option.

 

Neither of my boys have loans totaling anywhere near this amount and both are going to private schools. We aren't contributing much at all. We buy books for both. You need to look for schools that offer the type of aid you need - merit aid for high stats, need-based aid for low income. In both cases, there are some potential real deals out there, but certainly not every college fits. Also consider geographical diversity. Almost all colleges want this, so they may pay more to get it. Oodles of students want to go to college within 4 hours of home - move outside that window and more financial options can pop up.

 

Keep in mind as well that a recent study shows that despite everyone's predictions, a college degree is still important. Almost ALL the new jobs created during this recession required a college degree.

 

:iagree: It really does appear to be the "new" high school diploma as far as many jobs are concerned.

 

 

For my kids, our goal is to save as much as we can, get as many scholarships and grants as we can, choose a school with a reasonable price tag after scholarships and grants (remember more expensive schools often give more aid - so don't decide based on the initial price tag), work when not in school, and if necessary have the children take out a reasonable level of debt compared to their expected future earnings.

 

:iagree: We had saved for our kids, but lost over 100K in the economic downfall. I wondered what this would do to them. So far, it's worked. It is VERY worth it to study for the PSAT/SAT/ACT and consider colleges carefully.

 

Broad-brush generalizations aside, the situation is indeed sobering. I'm not worried, but I'm not expecting miracles either. We know a number of outstanding high school graduates who got *no* merit aid at all. For us, even the mid-range state schools don't accept APs, and tuition wavers don't exist. Full ride scholarships are rare, and go to only the top 5% or so. With some engineering majors going jobless upon graduation right now, I personally would like to see mine avoid or minimize loans. And the competition for ROTC and the academies is tougher than ever. We know some who were superstars who didn't get the ROTC/academy appointment that they were counting on.

 

This is true to a point, but those students you know who got "no" merit aid didn't apply to the right places IME. I see oodles of top kids graduate from school each year (and my school's definition of "top" is VERY lenient with scores). Those who only apply to state schools often get little or nothing. Those who apply to private schools often get a bit. Those who apply to private schools away from home often get a bit more.

 

I always suggest applying to a variety of schools - a state school and privates known for good aid. Then see what you, specifically, get. We've been through this process twice and I've been VERY pleased with it all. Only one school wanted middle son to cough up 33K+ (with loans on top of it) and we just quickly told them "forget it!" If that had been the only place he applied, he'd be another horror story, but instead, he had four other affordable choices to choose from (< 10K each including room and board).

[Jenny in Florida]

I was reading today in some article in something I get...a list of ways to save money in college. On the list were things like doing your own laundry on campus because the CAMPUS LAUNDRY SERVICE might cost up to $400 a year. Really? Someone had to write that in an article? There are kids who actually need to save money who need to read that?

 

That doesn't surprise me. Remember, we live in a world in which bridal magazines publish articles suggesting that one way to have a wedding on a budget is to hire a DJ instead of a band. My daughter (who isn't even dating, let alone getting married, but has loved bridal magazines since she was a toddler) was reading one of those articles aloud a few days ago and laughing incredulously. It was a no-brainer to her that the way to save money on wedding music is to plug your iPod into a set of borrowed speakers.

 

I'm consistently disappointed in those articles in the women's magazines at the grocery check out, too. I see those headlines promising to disclose strategies that will save you 30% on your grocery bill! Then, I open to that page and discover they are telling readers to do things I've done for my whole life and never even thought about doing differently.

 

But, apparently, there are folks who need to be told these things.

 

And, honestly, I suspect a lot of those cost-of-college calculators are aimed at the kinds of people who think paying to have laundry done is normal or expected. Even in 15 or 20 years, I do not believe a "normal" college experience--state school, maybe transferring in after a couple of years at community college, living and eating at home, buying used textbooks, etc.--is going to cost as much as some of the websites I browsed suggested.

[Jane in NC]

That doesn't surprise me. Remember, we live in a world in which bridal magazines publish articles suggesting that one way to have a wedding on a budget is to hire a DJ instead of a band. My daughter (who isn't even dating, let alone getting married, but has loved bridal magazines since she was a toddler) was reading one of those articles aloud a few days ago and laughing incredulously. It was a no-brainer to her that the way to save money on wedding music is to plug your iPod into a set of borrowed speakers.

 

I'm consistently disappointed in those articles in the women's magazines at the grocery check out, too. I see those headlines promising to disclose strategies that will save you 30% on your grocery bill! Then, I open to that page and discover they are telling readers to do things I've done for my whole life and never even thought about doing differently.

 

But, apparently, there are folks who need to be told these things.

 

And, honestly, I suspect a lot of those cost-of-college calculators are aimed at the kinds of people who think paying to have laundry done is normal or expected. Even in 15 or 20 years, I do not believe a "normal" college experience--state school, maybe transferring in after a couple of years at community college, living and eating at home, buying used textbooks, etc.--is going to cost as much as some of the websites I browsed suggested.

 

Good point, Jenny. Reminds me of a discussion I had recently on gap years. For some, a gap means volunteer work or taking whatever job you can find (fast food, Man Power temp jobs) and saving for college. For others, a gap year means Mom and Dad pony up $40K for a special program of supervised activity. :eek:

 

These things are relative.

[Jenny in Florida]

Does the strength of a university or college program simply not matter to anyone's decision calculus?

 

Well, of course it "matters," but reality matters, too.

 

If I can afford -- or my kid can get enough aid -- to send my son or daughter to any school, anywhere, without regard to cost, then the primary consideration would be which school is "the best" for the major of the kid's choice.

 

However, I don't actually know anyone for whom that is the case.

 

So, for the rest of us, it has to be a balancing act, figuring out the best strategy to get that particular kid the closest thing to the education he or she wants/needs at a cost we can afford to pay.

 

My experience tells me that a good, and maybe even great, education is within reach at most colleges, if the student is motivated enough to get it.

[ChristyB in TN]

Well, of course it "matters," but reality matters, too.

 

If I can afford -- or my kid can get enough aid -- to send my son or daughter to any school, anywhere, without regard to cost, then the primary consideration would be which school is "the best" for the major of the kid's choice.

 

However, I don't actually know anyone for whom that is the case.

 

So, for the rest of us, it has to be a balancing act, figuring out the best strategy to get that particular kid the closest thing to the education he or she wants/needs at a cost we can afford to pay.

 

My experience tells me that a good, and maybe even great, education is within reach at most colleges, if the student is motivated enough to get it.

 

I agree. From where I am sitting, major universities offer good programs for most fields. I have no doubt my pre med major and pre law major attending a state university right now will be able to attend graduate school. No, we really didn't stress out about it when choosing a place to go.

[LisaKinVA]

So, for the rest of us, it has to be a balancing act, figuring out the best strategy to get that particular kid the closest thing to the education he or she wants/needs at a cost we can afford to pay.

 

The balancing act I totally get...however, what I was responding to was the "attitude" that I feel coming across in many responses that seems to indicate the local university is THE best route...or CC+transfer is THE best route...or whatever is cheapest is THE best route...when that may not be true, depending upon the student and the options available.

 

I just have seen the not-so-pretty underbelly of those attitudes that are too hard-and-fast. My brother did the 2+transfer. Nothing transferred, he had to start over. IMO, he (and my parents) should have looked at that option more carefully. My parents insisted on "absolutely no debt" with my youngest brother (who could not get any aid without my parents' help), he never finished his degree(he's about 12 credits shy), and has no interest in doing so.

 

You are being open and flexible...looking at a myriad of possibilities, trying to find the best options both program-wise and cost-wise. I am speaking about those who seem to express something completely different, essentially, this is the cheapest option without regard to anything else. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, since my own parents were like this. I was relatively unscathed, because I was able to find a school that met most of my criteria AND was affordable AND met their criteria. None of my brothers were quite so fortunate.

[angela in ohio]

The balancing act I totally get...however, what I was responding to was the "attitude" that I feel coming across in many responses that seems to indicate the local university is THE best route...or CC+transfer is THE best route...or whatever is cheapest is THE best route...when that may not be true, depending upon the student and the options available.

 

I just have seen the not-so-pretty underbelly of those attitudes that are too hard-and-fast. My brother did the 2+transfer. Nothing transferred, he had to start over. IMO, he (and my parents) should have looked at that option more carefully. My parents insisted on "absolutely no debt" with my youngest brother (who could not get any aid without my parents' help), he never finished his degree(he's about 12 credits shy), and has no interest in doing so.

 

You are being open and flexible...looking at a myriad of possibilities, trying to find the best options both program-wise and cost-wise. I am speaking about those who seem to express something completely different, essentially, this is the cheapest option without regard to anything else. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, since my own parents were like this. I was relatively unscathed, because I was able to find a school that met most of my criteria AND was affordable AND met their criteria. None of my brothers were quite so fortunate.

 

I think the missing key is that this isn't a generic conversation about college costs. This is a thread responding a specific person who asked a specific question. So answers (I know mine was) are colored by that.

 

Also, I haven't heard anybody advocate blindly using a 2+2 or a state uni. I think we all assume a certain level of discernment of each other as educated homeschool (mostly) mothers.

[Momof3littles]

I agree. From where I am sitting, major universities offer good programs for most fields. I have no doubt my pre med major and pre law major attending a state university right now will be able to attend graduate school. No, we really didn't stress out about it when choosing a place to go.

 

I'm sure there will be doors open to them. However, I can tell you that my DH who has a doctoral degree in chem and graduated from an undergrad public U and a public U graduate school (2 different schools) states that in academia, pedigree matters. He never wanted to teach, but in his experience with colleagues, friends, etc. pedigree does matter when applying for tenure track professor positions, for example. The top schools will only hire from highly pedigreed institutions. Right now some of his friends are saying there are about 200 applicants per tenured position at many schools, and as a result some schools who were not historically choosy about pedigree now have the option to be choosy about it.

 

That said, he did his undergrad degree at a state U, and was hired at graduation by a company considered to be a very desirable employer. It is difficult to get into that particular company, but one of his professors was married to a man who worked there. She forwarded DH's resume to her husband, and that's how he was hired. So he was able to forge those important connections at a state U. He also feels he got a lot of time and attention from his professors there, and really forged relationships with them. I think that's an important thing to emphasize to all students! Networking and relationships can be an enormous help in getting a job. Getting involved with internships, finding mentors, becoming active in a professional organization affiliated with your chosen career, etc. are all ways to forge those connections. DH later left that co. to attend grad school, and his connections at his employer were what got him into graduate school. When he was meeting with potential advisors at various graduate schools, they were all eager to have him join their groups because they knew he had letters of recommendation, etc. from former students. DH worked with those former students while he was employed as a bachelor's chemist. Those recommendations were *huge* for him. So again, it was the relationships he forged more than anything else.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Momof3littles

[LisaKinVA]

I agree. From where I am sitting, major universities offer good programs for most fields. I have no doubt my pre med major and pre law major attending a state university right now will be able to attend graduate school. No, we really didn't stress out about it when choosing a place to go.

 

And, from where I'm sitting, you don't go to certain universities if you want to study certain areas. If I lived in Blacksburg...Tech is the closest university. If my child wanted to study Communications, Tech would be a very, very poor choice. Conversely, you don't usually send engineers/hard science majors to UMW or JMU. For general courses of study, most things in the humanities, you may be fine...for other things, not so much.

 

I spent over a decade working with college students on the debate circuit, many of my former colleagues and students are now professors at various universities (too many to list), and rightly or wrongly, I do tend to trust their opinions much more than the college brochures and listing of majors.

[Mandy in TN]

Berea College

Alice Lloyd College

College of the Ozarks

Cooper Union

Webb Institute

 

and for young men Deep Springs College for the first two years.

 

These institutions are tuition free. Some honors colleges offer free tuition. With the economy being what it is, I am sure these programs are receiving more applicants making it even more difficult to gain admission than in the past. Sure, they all look like long shots statistically and some have financial requirements, but you won't know until you apply.

 

My oldest ds received a letter of acceptance from Berea College before Thanksgiving his senior year fall 2009. My 2nd son who on paper had more advanced courses, more dual enrollment courses, and a higher ACT score than his older brother was waitlisted at Berea before being accepted this spring. Based on numbers given at summer orientation, it sounds like their acceptance rate is down to about 12% from nearly 20% a few years ago.

 

If your family and child meet entrance requirements, it almost seems silly not to at least apply to each of these institutions that will meet your end goal.

 

Mandy

Edited August 22, 2012 by Mandy in TN

[LisaKinVA]

I think the missing key is that this isn't a generic conversation about college costs. This is a thread responding a specific person who asked a specific question. So answers (I know mine was) are colored by that.

 

Also, I haven't heard anybody advocate blindly using a 2+2 or a state uni. I think we all assume a certain level of discernment of each other as educated homeschool (mostly) mothers.

 

There have been some very helpful posts in this regard...listing multitudes of options.

 

What tends to send me "over the proverbial cliff" is when people post something like X college only costs $X, and when you do X and Y and Z! Poof! problem solved! College is simply much more than a cost-calculation. Costs are a HUGE part of it, and should be a major part of the discussion, but there is much more to it than cost alone.

 

Should the OP be concerned? Yes. Should she be asking for information? Absolutely. Is she getting some of that? Yup. But, I'm not one to assume anything WRT homeschool mothers.

 

I have heard some real doozies in the past 30 years...everything from "She doesn't need any more math than Algebra, she's just going to be a wife and mother..." (and yeah, the mom has a degree from LeTourneau) to, "College isn't important for anyone, and we won't help our kids get into one. If they want to go, they will have to figure it out for themselves," from a homeschool dad with a Masters (and all kinds of things in between. These are people I *know*. I know/knew their kids, some of whom are now approaching 30.

 

As I said before, I am sensitive to this issue...perhaps overly so. Personal experience has a way of coloring how we perceive things.

[Jane in NC]

And, from where I'm sitting, you don't go to certain universities if you want to study certain areas. If I lived in Blacksburg...Tech is the closest university. If my child wanted to study Communications, Tech would be a very, very poor choice. Conversely, you don't usually send engineers/hard science majors to UMW or JMU. For general courses of study, most things in the humanities, you may be fine...for other things, not so much.

 

I spent over a decade working with college students on the debate circuit, many of my former colleagues and students are now professors at various universities (too many to list), and rightly or wrongly, I do tend to trust their opinions much more than the college brochures and listing of majors.

 

Lisa, I think you have raised some particularly good points in this thread. Frankly it would be a total waste of money were my son to remain at home and commute to the regional university. That school does not offer his major! To say that not all colleges are equal addresses several issues: the student body, majors offered, the quality of faculty.

 

Even though I mentioned community college as a less expensive option, it is not one for all students. Many enginineering students are better served attending an engineering school from the get go. As a former mathematics instructor at an engineering school, I can state from experience that most CC transfers require 3 years to complete an engineering degree. The average CC simply does not offer a sufficient number of basic courses for the program. (Heck--my local CC does not offer Calc II let alone Calculus based physics.) Please note: Average CC. Your CC may be an engineering school feeder. Most are not.

 

My son attends a private LAC that seems to be a particularly good fit for our kid. Would he have thrived at a large state school? Maybe. But we knew that he would have a higher chance at happiness and success in a smaller world.

 

If the goal is just to have a piece of paper in hand, maybe cheaper is better. College for us is about more than the piece of paper--but that does not mean that cost is not a consideration or that the most expensive is the best. Finding an appropriate fit that was affordable for us was our modus operandi. We also started saving for college at birth.

[TravelingChris]

Our plan was for children to get scholarships and loans if necessary and for us to pay out of our income. So far, it has worked fine. We payed anywhere from 9K to 13k per year for the kids though right now, dd is living at home and taking online classes so I think the cost is now down to books and a small fee. If she gets better and can attend on campus again, her costs to us are just room, board, gas, and books. Now all that did rise to the level of 13K last year but when she isn't living on campus, if she can do that, it will fall a lot. She has a full tuition scholarship and also had a stipend for research. She wants to continue,very strongly at University of Alabama because she wants to have her scholarship pay fro both a BA and a Masters in Economics. Then she will use three years of a GI bill to go to law school. Then we will have one year of GI bill for her sister. WE expect her sister to get a very good scholarship too just like her brother. But by the time child three goes, if the economy doesn't collapse further, my dh will be retired and getting that income along with having another good paying job. By that point, we will only be supporting one and she will have college paid for one way or another.

 

Now we couldn't have paid our EFC at any point but we never needed to and by the time we may need to fund college by ourselves, dh will have a lot higher income.

[Jenny in Florida]

TYou are being open and flexible...looking at a myriad of possibilities, trying to find the best options both program-wise and cost-wise. I am speaking about those who seem to express something completely different, essentially, this is the cheapest option without regard to anything else. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, since my own parents were like this. I was relatively unscathed, because I was able to find a school that met most of my criteria AND was affordable AND met their criteria. None of my brothers were quite so fortunate.

 

I'm so sorry about your brothers' experiences. I have a deep-down, virtually instinctive reaction against rigidity like that shown by your parents.

 

I think what a lot of us are trying to say is that it's possible for pretty much all students who are academically capable of doing so to go to college. It may not be feasible for them to go to the college of their choice without taking on a lot of debt, but I don't think that parents in Jenny's (OP's) situation have to panic and think it isn't "possible" for their kids to go to any college at all because of financial limitations.

 

My daughter and I did college quite differently. I did a couple of years at community college, transferred to a small, private liberal arts college, then finished at a large state university. There were positives and negatives about each school. My parents were not helpful, financially, beyond letting me live at home. I got some grants and scholarships and did work study and part-time jobs when I could, but also took on a ton of debt that has hung over my head for 25 years.

 

My daughter got her degree from a small, private college and lived on campus several states away from home for all four years. In her case, it made sense, since she had a specific academic and social need that could be met at fewer than a handful of colleges in this country. She got nice scholarships, but was not able work because of her age. She has a couple of loans in her name, which we are paying for her, and we took on a lot of debt to make it possible for her to take that path. She is ambivalent about her college experience, much more so than I am or ever was, and will need some time to make her peace with it.

 

We'll still be paying those loans by the time she does, I'm certain.

 

I suspect my son will do a 2+2 program, but I'm already looking into the requirements to transfer from our local community college to one of the state university campuses. I will do everything I can to make sure he doesn't end up in your brothers' situation. In his case, he doesn't need the specialized program my daughter did and isn't especially academically driven. Also, it turns out that our local state campus actually has very good programs in a couple of areas in which he might be interested. In fact, they have a master's program that is one of only four such offerings in the country. So, it might make very good sense for him to stay home for college.

 

I know you said you understand my position, but just in case it helps clear up the idea for anyone else wondering, I'll share the analogy my daughter and I discussed. I think that saying your kid can go to only the college that is the absolute best fit for his or her interests and that, if we cannot afford that, it isn't "possible" for the kid to go to college at all makes about as much sense as saying that you have to starve if you can't afford lobster.

 

(Also, I've done a fair amount of reading on this topic and found that, in surveys of college students, the ones at the priciest, most prestigious schools are often less satisfied with their academic experiences than those as less expensive, less selective colleges. So, as I said, there are positives and negatives to every situation.)

Edited August 22, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[ChristyB in TN]

And, from where I'm sitting, you don't go to certain universities if you want to study certain areas. If I lived in Blacksburg...Tech is the closest university. If my child wanted to study Communications, Tech would be a very, very poor choice. Conversely, you don't usually send engineers/hard science majors to UMW or JMU. For general courses of study, most things in the humanities, you may be fine...for other things, not so much.

 

I spent over a decade working with college students on the debate circuit, many of my former colleagues and students are now professors at various universities (too many to list), and rightly or wrongly, I do tend to trust their opinions much more than the college brochures and listing of majors.

 

Yes, and from where I'm sitting, the closest universities don't present the opportunities that another, farther university does. ALL of my kids community college credits transferred...because we made sure they took the right ones. The college wasn't the issue, the decisions were. The original post was about costs.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Mad Charity
very silly

[ChristyB in TN]

Yes, and from where I'm sitting, the closest universities don't present the opportunities that another, farther university does. ALL of my kids community college credits transferred...because we made sure they took the right ones. The college wasn't the issue, the decisions were. The original post was about costs. Did that seem cavalier?

 

And, Lisa, I don't mean to snap.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Mad Charity
silly

[Mandy in TN]

Yes, and from where I'm sitting, the closest universities don't present the opportunities that another, farther university does. ALL of my kids community college credits transferred...because we made sure they took the right ones. The college wasn't the issue, the decisions were. The original post was about costs. Did that seem cavalier?

Yeah, now our cc has transfer agreements, so it is easy to see which courses will transfer to the state colleges as well as some of the private colleges in the area.

 

Actually, in TN the state board of regents 4-year and 2-year institutions have an agreement where the 41 semester hours of general education credits can be taken at any of their institutions. If your family decides on a state university, it only makes good sense to take as many of those 41 hours as possible at the cc. I mean, if you are going to be an engineering major at TNTech, why would you want to pay the higher dollar amount to take your fine arts requirement there when you can take it at the cc? :)

 

Mandy

[QueenCat]

What tends to send me "over the proverbial cliff" is when people post something like X college only costs $X, and when you do X and Y and Z! Poof! problem solved! College is simply much more than a cost-calculation. Costs are a HUGE part of it, and should be a major part of the discussion, but there is much more to it than cost alone.

 

 

I see what you are saying. For me, seeing examples of ways it worked doesn't mean it's "the way" but shows people who don't think there is "any" way that there might be, as they can see several ways different people did it.

[LittleIzumi]

Dh's university is a bit over $5K a year. Same with the religious university in the next town.

[AdventureMoms]

I see what you are saying. For me, seeing examples of ways it worked doesn't mean it's "the way" but shows people who don't think there is "any" way that there might be, as they can see several ways different people did it.

 

That is how I see it too. I don't think the cheapest way is always best, and I also think a lot of people short themselves by only applying to state schools. But if someone is really freaked out by the prospect of affording college AT ALL, I think it's helpful to discuss the cheapest options