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If you go to a church that teaches tithing...


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I'm with Shannon and Cat. :001_smile:

 

OP, don't leave the church. Volunteer service hours if and when you can, and give cheerfully what and when you can. Don't feel guilty about not buying into the institutional-church thought of tithing.

 

I went through the same thing as you for many years and it made it very hard to focus on growing my relationship with my Lord. I unintentionally ended up doing a very deep study into tithing only to realize that OT people never directly tithed money. They tithed harvests, oils, animals, but never money. Money, precious metals, and gems were always offered voluntarily as they were able. Plus, under the New Covenant, we're not held to those old laws anymore, despite what the church institution in general might think.

 

Once I reached that conclusion and felt it confirmed by the Holy Spirit, all my guilt has been gone and nothing my pastor says brings it back. For now I'll give offerings when our finances permit us to do so. Once I get an overflowing garden and chicken coop and start making some money off it, *those funds* will have tithes taken from it.

 

And just for the record, we are not any less blessed for not tithing the traditional way. :D

 

Bobbey,

 

Dh and I did the same thing and came to similar conclusions. The OT tithing is very interesting subject matter. After our study I had a conversation with a friend (well, used to be friend) who attends a strict tithing church. I brought up that I think the modern interpretations of tithing are pretty narrow. It's very easy for some people to give money. It doesn't actually cost them a thing, yet in their hearts they are giving up nothing for God. They give their 10%, or 20%, whatever their church tells them, and think they are good with God. Just to be clear, I don't believe this to be true of the vast majority of families who tithe. I do think that sometimes tithing can lead to a mentality that does not recognize other ways of giving, and can sometimes lead to Christians not helping people who are right in front of them b/c they see the tithe as their giving. That was true of my friend at times.

 

My friend was adamant that God only recognizes *money*, not time, not goods, not services. Furthermore, according to her he recognizes giving only if it is sanctioned by a church institution. If you decide to freely give to help a Christian brother or sister in need, God doesn't recognize that---unless your pastor told you to do it. :001_huh:

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Furthermore, according to her he recognizes giving only if it is sanctioned by a church institution. If you decide to freely give to help a Christian brother or sister in need, God doesn't recognize that---unless your pastor told you to do it. :001_huh:

 

It is interesting that this issue has come up in this thread. My husband and I have had several conversations about this over the years, because our church adamantly preaches that a tithe has to go to the "local church," which will then dole it out to ministries it deems worthy. I actually do not have a problem with the ministries they support, but neither do I see anything to justify their position that my independent support of these ministries (or other ministries, for that matter) doesn't "count" towards my church giving.

 

Over the years, we have designated parts of our tithe (which may may not be 10%) to (1) our adoption fund, (2) Samaritan's Purse, (3) Campus Crusade, and (4) paying over a year's worth of COBRA premiums for a family who desperately needed medical coverage. In the COBRA case, the husband/dad is a deacon in our church, everyone in leadership is well aware of both his unemployment and his wife's extensive medical issues, and the church didn't offer to pay one cent towards their COBRA. While we were paying their COBRA premium, our (and his) pastor preached more than once about tithes going to the local church. It kind of rubbed me even more the wrong way than usual.

 

Terri

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I don't know why t he treasurer evens needs to keep a record of who gives what? It just seems like it would cause more harm than good. The only way anyone would know what you gave a certain week at our church is if you happen to write a check that week. After service two different people count the money and one of them deposits it in the bank. End of story. Of course, I'm used to smaller congregations.

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I don't know why t he treasurer evens needs to keep a record of who gives what? It just seems like it would cause more harm than good. The only way anyone would know what you gave a certain week at our church is if you happen to write a check that week. After service two different people count the money and one of them deposits it in the bank. End of story. Of course, I'm used to smaller congregations.

 

Tax purposes. Any donation that you want to deduct, over a certain amount, requires documentation from the church. The treasurer is the only person at our church who knows how much someone gives but they wouldn't have a clue as to what the percentage of their income it is (that isn't anyone's business at the church). Not sure what the size of the congregation would have to do with it. If you give "x" amount to the 50 member congregation, you still need the same proof as if you gave it to the 1000 member congregation. As to why I take the deduction- the less I pay in taxes, the more I have to give.

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I just wanted to pop back in and say that I'm finding this topic to be very interesting, and that I'm quite impressed with the way this thread has been progressing. Sometimes this type of thread can go from nice to nasty within the first five posts, so it's nice to see everyone being so respectful of others' opinions. :001_smile:

 

But if someone slips in a snarky remark about shopping carts or crockpots, all bets are off! :D

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Tax purposes. Any donation that you want to deduct, over a certain amount, requires documentation from the church. The treasurer is the only person at our church who knows how much someone gives but they wouldn't have a clue as to what the percentage of their income it is (that isn't anyone's business at the church). Not sure what the size of the congregation would have to do with it. If you give "x" amount to the 50 member congregation, you still need the same proof as if you gave it to the 1000 member congregation. As to why I take the deduction- the less I pay in taxes, the more I have to give.

 

:iagree: We always write a check for our tithe/offering. I'm also curious what the congregation size has to do with anything. I've belonged to small churches and they do the same thing. Typically I think 2 deacons handle the money, or maybe 1 deacon and the treasurer. The treasurer sends out the yearly statement showing the giving for tax purposes.

 

Now I know I'm quoting the wrong poster but as I'm typing I wonder what harm can come of that? The person handling the money is an officer of the church and thus should keep confidentiality, etc.

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I don't know why t he treasurer evens needs to keep a record of who gives what? It just seems like it would cause more harm than good. The only way anyone would know what you gave a certain week at our church is if you happen to write a check that week. After service two different people count the money and one of them deposits it in the bank. End of story. Of course, I'm used to smaller congregations.

 

Actually, the IRS requires it. If you give more than $250 to a charitable organization, and you want to claim it on your taxes, then you must have a form from that organization. My DH is the one who keeps track of each persons giving, and he would never say how much anyone gave. DH was actually voted into this position because everyone trusts him. We attend a small church.

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We just don't claim it on our taxes. It has to do with us not wanting any sort of recognition or credit for our giving.

 

I've heard people say this before, but I've never been able to ask about it without it seeming confrontational (because of the people involved) so I hope I can ask this without it seeming confrontational to you:

 

What kind of recognition or credit do you get by claiming it on your taxes?

 

It's just something I don't understand. I'm not trying to talk you out of your point of view. ;)

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As a pastor in my former life (who went to seminary and everything :001_smile:) I don't really believe in tithing. To be a true Christ follower, we must give everything to God and truly understand that God gave us everything. Ten percent is getting off easy; God doesn't ask for ten percent of our money he asks for all that we have, all that we are to do His work and His will.

 

Modern tithing, IMO, is more about church survival and less about faithfulness. Because I don't see churches preaching radical giving. We had a friend in our Christian community give us, out of their faithfulness, the money to get out of foreclosure. Does that money count? Does that great act of trust and faithfulness count as tithing in their church's eyes? No, because it wasn't given to the church but I can tell you it came solely out of their desire to walk Christ's path. Or what about the fact that we seek to reach out to a woman in our community who is troubled and addicted to drugs? Is that tithing? Does it "count" for the church?

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe in giving money to my church and I do, but that is only a portion of what I give and how I give. God's call encompasses my whole life, not just my church life. So I let God direct me as to how to give.

 

So all this rambling is to say that I think you can let go of that need to give 10% strictly to the church. Now I recognize that this opinion might not be popular and I am not putting down anyone else's opinion - just wanting to share my $.02.

 

Tithing doesn't ask enough of us, I believe (and asks too much of others).

 

I'm not a former pastor nor have I attended seminary but I agree with what you've said.

 

Following Christ isn't always easy, but it doesn't have to be so complicated.

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I've heard people say this before, but I've never been able to ask about it without it seeming confrontational (because of the people involved) so I hope I can ask this without it seeming confrontational to you:

 

What kind of recognition or credit do you get by claiming it on your taxes?

 

It's just something I don't understand. I'm not trying to talk you out of your point of view. ;)

 

I've heard that before too but don't understand it. We don't get "recognition" for our giving by our church, unless one considers the tax documentation credit (we don't). The tax deduction enables us to give MORE because we are paying less in taxes. Ultimately, neither is right or wrong, and we each need to do what works for us. For me, I'd rather have more to give. We did analyze the difference our deduction makes, and it's worth it for us.

Edited by CathieC
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I've heard people say this before, but I've never been able to ask about it without it seeming confrontational (because of the people involved) so I hope I can ask this without it seeming confrontational to you:

 

What kind of recognition or credit do you get by claiming it on your taxes?

 

It's just something I don't understand. I'm not trying to talk you out of your point of view. ;)

 

Well the word used is "claiming". So, by claiming the giving on our taxes we see it as a way of announcing or stating, "this is how much we gave". Our thoughts are somewhat connected to the verse about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, though that verse is not about tithing specifically. I always hesitate to include this as part of our reason b/c I'm actually afraid of appearing confrontational. It's part of our personal beliefs about giving. We feel it is a matter between us and God, not the government, or the church.

 

I have no idea if charitable contributions can add up to deductions since Dh takes care of taxes, but it's not something we take into account anyway.

 

We also don't claim money given to the local wildlife rehab center or donations to a local children's home --- none of our charitable contributions are claimed. And I especially get annoyed when groups (Christian or otherwise) use tax deductions as a way of talking people into giving. They are obviously trying to use a benefit to entice people into giving. But, that's a whole separate issue. I also don't like the idea of groups giving 'gifts' to their contributors. If I want to contribute to a cause I'm doing it b/c I believe in it, not so I can get a trinket. I'd rather they not spend contribution money on 'gifts' to give as rewards. Now I've gone off on a tngent....sorry.:blushing:

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Well the word used is "claiming". So, by claiming the giving on our taxes we see it as a way of announcing or stating, "this is how much we gave". Our thoughts are somewhat connected to the verse about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, though that verse is not about tithing specifically. I always hesitate to include this as part of our reason b/c I'm actually afraid of appearing confrontational. It's part of our personal beliefs about giving. We feel it is a matter between us and God, not the government, or the church.

 

I have no idea if charitable contributions can add up to deductions since Dh takes care of taxes, but it's not something we take into account anyway.

 

We also don't claim money given to the local wildlife rehab center or donations to a local children's home --- none of our charitable contributions are claimed. And I especially get annoyed when groups (Christian or otherwise) use tax deductions as a way of talking people into giving. They are obviously trying to use a benefit to entice people into giving. But, that's a whole separate issue. I also don't like the idea of groups giving 'gifts' to their contributors. If I want to contribute to a cause I'm doing it b/c I believe in it, not so I can get a trinket. I'd rather they not spend contribution money on 'gifts' to give as rewards. Now I've gone off on a tngent....sorry.:blushing:

 

It wasn't my intention to be confrontational. No one at our church has suggested people claim their donations so that they can give more, or to give so they can claim the deduction (I'd run from a church that made those type of suggestions). For us, it's just part of our personal giving planning and our tax planning, the more we have, the more we can give (to God, via the church and other charities). We don't keep tabs on little donations though, as that would be a pain (for me, as I'm the one that does the taxes around here:001_smile:). I'm with you on groups giving gifts to get people to contribute though...

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Well the word used is "claiming". So, by claiming the giving on our taxes we see it as a way of announcing or stating, "this is how much we gave". Our thoughts are somewhat connected to the verse about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, though that verse is not about tithing specifically. I always hesitate to include this as part of our reason b/c I'm actually afraid of appearing confrontational. It's part of our personal beliefs about giving. We feel it is a matter between us and God, not the government, or the church.

 

I have no idea if charitable contributions can add up to deductions since Dh takes care of taxes, but it's not something we take into account anyway.

 

We also don't claim money given to the local wildlife rehab center or donations to a local children's home --- none of our charitable contributions are claimed. And I especially get annoyed when groups (Christian or otherwise) use tax deductions as a way of talking people into giving. They are obviously trying to use a benefit to entice people into giving. But, that's a whole separate issue. I also don't like the idea of groups giving 'gifts' to their contributors. If I want to contribute to a cause I'm doing it b/c I believe in it, not so I can get a trinket. I'd rather they not spend contribution money on 'gifts' to give as rewards. Now I've gone off on a tngent....sorry.:blushing:

 

:iagree: with all this. Not saying "IT'S THE LAW". But this is how we feel about it also. :001_smile:

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Well the word used is "claiming". So, by claiming the giving on our taxes we see it as a way of announcing or stating, "this is how much we gave". Our thoughts are somewhat connected to the verse about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, though that verse is not about tithing specifically. I always hesitate to include this as part of our reason b/c I'm actually afraid of appearing confrontational. It's part of our personal beliefs about giving. We feel it is a matter between us and God, not the government, or the church.

 

You don't sound confrontational. It's what you believe is right. There is nothing wrong with that!

 

I see it the other way: we have more of our money to give as we choose rather than the government choosing for us. Whoever in the IRS is processing our taxes doesn't care one bit about it, so I don't see it as receiving recognition. Someone once told me it is bragging, but I couldn't figure out who it is bragging to.

 

Following one's conscience is a good thing. ;)

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We don't claim it on our taxes either so that's why I didn't understand the purpose of the treasurer keeping a record. I'm not saying it's bad to claim your contributions on your taxes, just saying we don't and thats why I wasn't familiar with the in and outs of it.

 

The treasurer has to keep the record whether you claim it or not.

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So, I wonder what the treasurer does with the people like us who give cash only.

 

They keep a record of how much cash was in the plate.

If it is in an envelope that has a name for it is from, they need to record that as well.

 

If it was not given with any name associated with it, obviously they don't have to track who it came from.

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I've heard people say this before, but I've never been able to ask about it without it seeming confrontational (because of the people involved) so I hope I can ask this without it seeming confrontational to you:

 

What kind of recognition or credit do you get by claiming it on your taxes?

 

It's just something I don't understand. I'm not trying to talk you out of your point of view. ;)

 

When we 'tithed', we hated any acknowledgement that we had given. It was a gift. We expected nothing in return, and most definitely, no accounting of it. We hated those tally slips at tax time.

 

Perhaps if I had tens of thousands to give, I wouldn't want my gifts taxed, and I'm happy that is there for them, but like the Sunnylady said, monetary gifts are a small portion of what we give.

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... and there was NO WAY you could give 10% of your income WWYD?

 

I feel guilty. I don't personally even believe in a strict interpretation of the tithing teaching, however the congregation in question does support a traditional understanding of the tithe.

 

Now I feel bad because I can't give very much without putting us in the red and harming my family. But, I also don't like feeling like a "taker."

 

I've thought about not going as much so my kids and I don't take too much of the church's time or resources. Yes, I know how twisted and lame that thinking is! But, it's where my mind is at right now.

 

SO, um, assuming that - unlike me - you are reasonably sane when it comes to church issues, WWYD?

 

(why does church have to be so hard? :( )

 

Do they teach tithing or require tithing? I've heard of both. If they require it and you can't I'd just find a different church because I think that is crazy.

 

If they *teach* it and you can't, I wouldn't worry about it unless there was some weird dynamic. I've been in that church before and in your position. So many testimonies about how people were at rock bottom but continued to tithe because it was the right thing to do and God blessed them miraculously, yada, yada, yada.

 

Don't let that make you feel guilty or like you don't have the right kind of faith. I'm not saying those testimonies are wrong but their intent should not make you feel guilty. Most times those kinds of testimonies are more focused on people and their "look-at-me" kind of faith. Testimonies should always focus on God's amazing goodness and provision for us and should be peppered with so much grace for other people and their situations. So many times they sound like, "if I can do it; then you can do it" That's not grace. That's judgment. It's subtle, but it's there.

 

If you can handle it and you like your church, then stay and do *not* attend any less than you are accustomed to. When you give, give in cash to remove all worry of people keeping tabs on you.

 

If you can't handle it there are other churches out there who handle financial issues more graciously.

Edited by silliness7
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You don't sound confrontational. It's what you believe is right. There is nothing wrong with that!

 

I see it the other way: we have more of our money to give as we choose rather than the government choosing for us. Whoever in the IRS is processing our taxes doesn't care one bit about it, so I don't see it as receiving recognition. Someone once told me it is bragging, but I couldn't figure out who it is bragging to.

 

:001_huh:I think it's their way of saying something similar to what I said, except not in very nice terms.

 

Following one's conscience is a good thing. ;)

 

The verse I mentioned does have the connotation of bragging, which is probably why that person told you it is bragging. But, I don't think that b/c you claim your donations = bragging.

 

I do think there are people who might be tempted to be prideful about their contributions especially if seen tallied for the year. Meanwhile, like the friend I mentioned earlier, a real live hurting person stands before them and they don't give a thing...not time, not money, nada---after all they gave x amount to the church.

 

I never thought about the idea that if you receive money back you can donate it back to the church. Weird, that it never occurred to me. We still want our giving to be 'in secret' as much as possible and to keep it b/t us and God. So, yes, it's a matter of following our consciences.

 

Verses I referenced earlier listed below and where your 'friend' may have gotten the idea that you are bragging :confused: on your tax documents.

 

 

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

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They keep a record of how much cash was in the plate.

If it is in an envelope that has a name for it is from, they need to record that as well.

 

If it was not given with any name associated with it, obviously they don't have to track who it came from.

 

That's what I thought. Our church is so small that I've sometimes wondered if they are unofficially figuring out how much we are giving anyway. I don't think too many other people give in cash.

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That's what I thought. Our church is so small that I've sometimes wondered if they are unofficially figuring out how much we are giving anyway. I don't think too many other people give in cash.

 

Honestly, unless the treasurer is really a busy body? they don't care. i've been a treasurer at a small church. (Small churches are where folks who are trustworthy and reliable can be put into these types of positions even if not exactly -qualified- for the position). And all I cared about was getting the money counted, tallied correctly, and sent off to the bank. I didn't care who was putting what in the plate even as writing down chk 1091 John Doe $135 on my list, etc.

 

The only time the cumulative effect came out was when making up the end of the year reports to send to folk. And I couldn't tell you now, about 8 years later, who gave what because it just did not matter.

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A somewhat related story. I have a good friend whose grandparents were regular church attendees. When she was younger, her grandparents tithed using those envelopes provided by the church (with numbers and then the numbers are assigned to people, or your write your name on them so there is some record of your offerings). At some point the church decided to start posting IN THE BULLETIN what everyone had put in the plate the week before (with the list also posted in the church). After that, Grandpa switched to cash in the offering plate - that his giving was no one's business but his and God or whatever.

 

I'm now curious if there are still churches that do this (post tithing amounts publically).

 

:001_huh: That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

 

We just don't claim it on our taxes. It has to do with us not wanting any sort of recognition or credit for our giving.

 

Well the word used is "claiming". So, by claiming the giving on our taxes we see it as a way of announcing or stating, "this is how much we gave". Our thoughts are somewhat connected to the verse about not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing, though that verse is not about tithing specifically. I always hesitate to include this as part of our reason b/c I'm actually afraid of appearing confrontational. It's part of our personal beliefs about giving. We feel it is a matter between us and God, not the government, or the church.

 

I have no idea if charitable contributions can add up to deductions since Dh takes care of taxes, but it's not something we take into account anyway.

 

We also don't claim money given to the local wildlife rehab center or donations to a local children's home --- none of our charitable contributions are claimed. And I especially get annoyed when groups (Christian or otherwise) use tax deductions as a way of talking people into giving. They are obviously trying to use a benefit to entice people into giving. But, that's a whole separate issue. I also don't like the idea of groups giving 'gifts' to their contributors. If I want to contribute to a cause I'm doing it b/c I believe in it, not so I can get a trinket. I'd rather they not spend contribution money on 'gifts' to give as rewards. Now I've gone off on a tngent....sorry.:blushing:

 

:iagree:and this is why we don't use the numbered envelopes either.

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We have paid tithing when it made no financial sense. At times like that, we have been blessed in other unexpected ways. Our church teaches that tithing is a commandment. In fact, one of the first requirements given to those who are requesting aide from the church is that they pay tithing of money and time.

 

ETA: I would also say not to stop attending if you don't pay tithing. I would ask about possible financial assistance if needed.

 

:iagree: The times I pay tithing with no money are times random checks show up in the mail. (Literally.)

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I never thought about the idea that if you receive money back you can donate it back to the church. Weird, that it never occurred to me. We still want our giving to be 'in secret' as much as possible and to keep it b/t us and God. So, yes, it's a matter of following our consciences.

 

We actually do it a little differently. We give more from the start, and then have an overall lower tax burden at tax time. We figured out what we needed to do to make it work, so that we could give more, and went from there. Each time dh gets a raise, we re-adjust our offerings/giving and his 401k contribution. Not all of our giving (we don't use the word tithe) goes directly to the church, some of it goes to other people/places. Obviously, if it's to a person, not a group, there isn't a tax deduction, but we don't do it for the deduction, that just aids in our overall financial picture. Ultimately though, each of us needs to determine what works for us, and rely on God for those answers.

Edited by CathieC
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There was something said by a previous posted that made me think of the Jewish "hierarchy" of giving. A friend told me about it when I was participating in a charity auction for someone I strongly disliked (she was dying and the fund was going to help her family pay for medical expenses and her children's educational needs).

 

I suppose my giving might have been "unwillingly" but I think I donated generously, and I wasn't specifically asked (there was a general call for donations), and I had never participated in something like that before. So who knows.

 

Anyway. If anyone else is curious, here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzedakah

 

And the list is:

 

Maimonides lists his Eight Levels of Giving, as written in the Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot matanot aniyim ("Laws about Giving to Poor People"), Chapter 10:7-14:

 

  1. Giving an interest-free loan to a person in need; forming a partnership with a person in need; giving a grant to a person in need; finding a job for a person in need; so long as that loan, grant, partnership, or job results in the person no longer living by relying upon others.
  2. Giving tzedakah anonymously to an unknown recipient via a person (or public fund) which is trustworthy, wise, and can perform acts of tzedakah with your money in a most impeccable fashion.
  3. Giving tzedakah anonymously to a known recipient.
  4. Giving tzedakah publicly to an unknown recipient.
  5. Giving tzedakah before being asked.
  6. Giving adequately after being asked.
  7. Giving willingly, but inadequately.
  8. Giving "in sadness" (giving out of pity): It is thought that Maimonides was referring to giving because of the sad feelings one might have in seeing people in need (as opposed to giving because it is a religious obligation). Other translations say "Giving unwillingly."

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