WWYD Saxon 6/5 or 7/6??

[DragonflyAcademy]

Ok.. I need some input..

 

We are switching to Saxon this coming year.. DS used Rod and Staff for grade 5 and did quite well.. prior we used TT until it became obvious he needed more drill...

 

He is good in math.. but makes careless mistakes.. he rushes.. and doesn't take the time to think it through.. he will just write an answer without thinking "does this make sense??"..

 

I have both Saxon 5/6 and 7/6 and had thought to place him in 7/6..I did give the placement test and he just squeaked into the 7/6 placement..

 

he is entering 6th grade..

 

Is there any detriment to place him in 5/6?? Should he be placed in 7/6?? Will that throw Jr High (gasp!!) off next year if he is in 7/6 if I place him in 5/6?? Will he know the material for the CAT at the end of this year if I place him in 5/6??? (we are in a standardized testing year this year)

 

Thoughts.. ?? (I am committed to Saxon.. so an alternate program isn't an option..)

[Hunter]

I prefer to place low in Saxon. Lessons become torture when placed too high. They need to be easy, really easy, to juggle such a volume and diversity of topics.

[janainaz]

I started both of my kids in Saxon 1 when they were in kindergarten, and my kids have always stayed a year ahead (one level ahead). Saxon is so thorough with it's spiral approach (which is what I love about it), but it does seem to go at a slower pace than other math curriculum I've seen.

 

My son used to make careless mistakes also (still does, but he's improving), but he knew the material well. Every day after his lesson I would go through and correct his work, but I never told him what his error was - I just marked the problem that was wrong. He had to find his mistake on his own. There is a big difference between a child making silly mistakes and not understanding a concept. He may just need to slow down and take his time.

[Beach Mom]

When we first started homeschooling I wasn't sure where to place one of my boys in Saxon, even after the placement testing. He was on the bubble between two levels. A Veritas consultant suggested we start the year by taking a chapter test each day from the lower level. When we got to one where he scored less than 80% that was the chapter we should start in. I already had both levels so this didn't increase my expense.

 

We ended up starting about 60% thorough a book and it was a perfect solution. He wasn't bored with material he already knew, but wasn't pushed into a level he wasn't quite ready for. When we finished we started the next book.

[SilverMoon]

When we first started homeschooling I wasn't sure where to place one of my boys in Saxon, even after the placement testing. He was on the bubble between two levels. A Veritas consultant suggested we start the year by taking a chapter test each day from the lower level. When we got to one where he scored less than 80% that was the chapter we should start in. I already had both levels so this didn't increase my expense.

 

We ended up starting about 60% thorough a book and it was a perfect solution. He wasn't bored with material he already knew, but wasn't pushed into a level he wasn't quite ready for. When we finished we started the next book.

 

That's how I'd do it. A math book too low is like kryptonite to my kids.

[DragonflyAcademy]

I had him retake the placement exam.. and he just squeaked into 7/6..

 

what do the numbers mean.. what does 7/6 mean?

 

Does that mean 7th grade or advanced 6th grader? Or does it mean 6 th grade, struggling 7th grader??

[HeidiKC]

I don't know how the topics in R&S 5 line up with Saxon 6/5, but 6/5 is generally considered (or used as) a 5th grade book. 7/6 is generally a 6th grade book. So I would probably put him in 7/6 since he just completed 5th grade math (understands it well) and is ready for 6th grade math.

 

I also have a son who is very good at math and often makes careless mistakes. That isn't going to change by making him do an easier math. I could put him in 4th grade math (he's in 7th grade) and he'll still rush and make careless mistakes. Interestingly, he did not make any mistakes when he was in school...because he wanted to please the teacher (who cares about mom?!), and he felt positive pressure to be top of the class. So he's still top of the class here at home no matter how many problems he misses! UGH! I guess he's careful when he takes standardized tests, because he scores at the top there. Thank goodness!

[SilverMoon]

I had him retake the placement exam.. and he just squeaked into 7/6..

 

what do the numbers mean.. what does 7/6 mean?

 

Does that mean 7th grade or advanced 6th grader? Or does it mean 6 th grade, struggling 7th grader??

 

I *thought* average 6th, but I am not fluent in Saxonese. :tongue_smilie:

 

If he can just squeak through the placement now, you could glance over what concepts he totally missed on that pretest and work on them with free internet resources for awhile. (http://www.math-drills.com, for example)

[Hunter]

The upper number is average. The lower number is for students who will be taking algebra in the 8th grade. Somehow many homeschoolers and even some PS have decided algebra in 8th grade is average. It's NOT. The average 8th grader is NOT developmentally ready for Algebra 1.

 

Saxon in spiral. I find that many students need to be placed lower in spiral curricula, if they are going to be able to comfortably juggle so many topics. Many, many, many students would be best served by doing 54 in the 6th grade.

 

The Saxon numbering system was put in place for the 1st edition which were easier and a narrower curriculum. After the author died, the curriculum has been made wider and more rigorous. So even more I recommend 54 as a 6th grade curriculum for many, many, many average students.

 

As far as I am concerned for 6th graders:

54 low average to average

65 average to high average

76 gifted

 

Yes, I had a 5th grader in Saxon Algebra 1. There ARE gifted children. And there are children with parents who make more time for math, and lighten the load elsewhere to accommodate more math time.

 

But for AVERAGE children spending 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day on math, my above recommendations are realistic. And I'd place some LD children even lower. It's a crying shame there is no 43. There is an Intermediate 3 though, with only a partial answer key and a big price tag.

 

Art Robinson recommends placing students in the Saxon book that is at their READING level. That is another consideration to think about during placement.

[SilverMoon]

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Edited July 12, 2022 by SilverMoon

[...................]

Nowadays, the average for college prep, especially STEM, or IB, is to take Algebra in 8th.

 

Saxon is super super easy, so I like the idea of taking the tests till you each one where your student has not mastered the material.

[DragonflyAcademy]

Saxon is Super Easy?? As in it isn't rigorous? Please tell me that it is a solid math program.....

[LinRTX]

It is a solid math program. I have 2 college graduates that did Saxon through Calculus. They both graduated with STEM degrees and summa cum laude. I did no other math with them except some PSAT and SAT prep books.

 

Linda

[boscopup]

Saxon is Super Easy?? As in it isn't rigorous? Please tell me that it is a solid math program.....

 

Saxon is easy compared to some other homeschool curricula. Will it teach math well enough to get into college? Absolutely. Will it make your child think hard and problem solve? Maybe not as much as some others would. Do all kids need that type of math? Nope.

 

My son's private school used Saxon. It was good enough to get decent test scores, but one complaint among parents was that the school wasn't strong in math. Talking to a senior who had used Saxon all the way through, he commented that he knew how to use the formulas but didn't know why. Basically, he could plug and chug but didn't have a strong conceptual understanding. He's a strong math student going into an engineering field like his dad. I'm sure he'll be fine in college, and he probably learned problem solving in his robotics club. I just found it interesting when he said that about Saxon, as he is not aware of homeschool curricula or the â€math warsâ€. ;)

[...................]

It wouldn't be rigorous if you used 5/4 in fifth grade for example. Trust me, Matt matters a lot to my family and I am using Saxon. But we use 6/5 in 5th grade and so on. Some even bump it up another year...but I see no punt I. Doing that.

 

But it is easy, partly because it does introduce concepts at a gentler pace, partly because of the constant review. Any student can

Succeed with Saxon. But for the bright child, it would be bad to place low because they will be totally bored. My son is in

6/5 on lesson 70 and has learned very little new material simcha the last book. This is a good thing since he is really cementing all those concepts!

 

But, even placed ahead, he is a bit bored. His computation skills are amazing but his logical reasoning seems low so we are supplementing with CWP and BTS.

 

Sorry to have scared you!

[Hunter]

Nowadays, the average for college prep, especially STEM, or IB, is to take Algebra in 8th.

 

Saxon is super super easy, so I like the idea of taking the tests till you each one where your student has not mastered the material.

 

There is college prep and there is college prep. Nowadays "college prep" has come to mean "competitive 4 year college prep". So yes, algebra in 8th is "average" for COMPETING for a limited number of spots at selective 4 year colleges. But competition is all about weeding out the average and PUSHING the bar as far as possible.

 

"Average" is about an hour of work a day, and average child development.

 

Saxon is not as easy as people think. if you are JUGGLING a bunch of topics that the student is supposed to be doing QUICKLY and ACCURATELY, then there will be review of easier topics.

 

Gifted is gifted, not average. It's gifted students that are capable of COMPETING for the limited spots.

 

Average colleges accept students who did Algebra 1 in 9th grade or 10th or 11th grade, and offer remedial classes that begin at addition.

 

It's best to meet a student at their READING and DEVELOPMENTAL level as well at their TRUE math level, and then build slow and steady while have a REAL life. And the REALITY of that, is often Algebra 1 in 9th grade or even much later, and entrance into an "average" college.

 

I had a gifted child doing Saxon Algebra 1 in 5th grade. I had an "average" child who never even finished an algebra 1 course. Guess who is most successful now? The "average" one! Life doesn't revolve around math ALL the time for ALL students. I wish I had learned that earlier and taken a chill pill.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Hunter

[DragonflyAcademy]

Ok. I guess we will go with 7/6 and see how things go. he is GOOD in math.. but has poor confidence, poor retention and tends to make silly mistakes because he works too quickly.. He also needs to work on memorization of his times tables.. (oiy)

[JoyceTWTM]

Ok.. I need some input..

 

 

Is there any detriment to place him in 5/6??

I would use 65, unless the standards for your Test dictated otherwise

[Hunter]

Ok. I guess we will go with 7/6 and see how things go. he is GOOD in math.. but has poor confidence, poor retention and tends to make silly mistakes because he works too quickly.. He also needs to work on memorization of his times tables.. (oiy)

 

I would not place a child who does not know his math facts in 76. I just wouldn't. Especially if he just squeaked by on the test.

 

What is his READING level? I also take into consideration reading level. Also you are new to Saxon. It really helps for the student to learn to READ the lessons and get used to the Saxon vocabulary and methods. By your first post you seem to committed to using the series for awhile.

 

I have known people who placed their children a little low, and because the student was fast and accurate, was able to do more than a lesson a day, without stress. It was work, but not stress, and the child was committed to moving ahead. But without math fact mastery...I'd say the child is going to be slow and making lots of mistakes even at 65, and really need to be there at that level.

[...................]

There is college prep and there is college prep. Nowadays "college prep" has come to mean "competitive 4 year college prep". So yes, algebra in 8th is "average" for COMPETING for a limited number of spots at selective 4 year colleges. But competition is all about weeding out the average and PUSHING the bar as far as possible.

 

"Average" is about an hour of work a day, and average child development.

 

Saxon is not as easy as people think. if you are JUGGLING a bunch of topics that the student is supposed to be doing QUICKLY and ACCURATELY, then there will be review of easier topics.

 

Gifted is gifted, not average. It's gifted students that are capable of COMPETING for the limited spots.

 

Average colleges accept students who did Algebra 1 in 9th grade or 10th or 11th grade, and offer remedial classes that begin at addition.

 

It's best to meet a student at their READING and DEVELOPMENTAL level as well at their TRUE math level, and then build slow and steady while have a REAL life. And the REALITY of that, is often Algebra 1 in 9th grade or even much later, and entrance into an "average" college.

 

I had a gifted child doing Saxon Algebra 1 in 5th grade. I had an "average" child who never even finished an algebra 1 course. Guess who is most successful now? The "average" one! Life doesn't revolve around math ALL the time for ALL students. I wish I had learned that earlier and taken a chill pill.

 

Well I'm not talking about pushing students to their limit. I'm talking about challenging them at a level that makes math interesting. And yes, personally I'd rather prepare my children for competitive college entrance. With unemployment skyrocketing and non- SteM college degrees proving nearly worthless, and needing scholarships, so they dont go into debt, my goal is not

"average." To each his own.

 

But then again I'm not advocating for algebra in 5th grade. nor am I saying that the OP should push her child beyond a developmentally appropriate level. I'm saying, Saxon is easy so take the tests and move the child along. That's all.

[Hunter]

Well I'm not talking about pushing students to their limit. I'm talking about challenging them at a level that makes math interesting. And yes, personally I'd rather prepare my children for competitive college entrance. With unemployment skyrocketing and non- SteM college degrees proving nearly worthless, and needing scholarships, so they dont go into debt, my goal is not

"average." To each his own.

 

But then again I'm not advocating for algebra in 5th grade. nor am I saying that the OP should push her child beyond a developmentally appropriate level. I'm saying, Saxon is easy so take the tests and move the child along. That's all.

 

The PRIMARY goal of Saxon isn't to make math interesting. Trying to place a child in Saxon with that goal as the PRIMARY goal is going to lead to frustration.

 

"Average" isn't a GOAL. "Average" is something most people ARE, and there is NOTHING shameful about being average in general, or average in a specific area. Even the gifted--which are a MINORITY--are not gifted in ALL areas.

 

It's the government's job to push math and science right now, as they did in the early cold war. It's our job as parents to not get caught up in fear and propaganda, and decide what is best for our individual children. Life doesn't start and end with money, and it also doesn't start and end with math.

 

The turtle won the race.

 

Homeschooling is a marathon, not a sprint. Everyone who has ever watched a marathon, knows what happens to the people who get scared and try to keep up with the leaders of the pack, and abandon their own pace.

 

I FREAKED over my older son's refusal to buckle down with math, but by 12 he was bigger than me, and by 14 was almost twice my size. He was willing to work and study business, but not apply himself to math. He was working hard, so hard it was against the law, but just at what HE wanted to apply himself to. He applied himself to math only as far as he had to to reach HIS goals. I'm not advocating less than a year of Algebra, I'm really not...but have also had no choice but to stand back and watch him do JUST fine. He married and built a house at 24, and pays more in taxes than his father earns. He took off across the country at 19, financially independent and has worked for the same fortune 500 company since he was 19. He's stable. He doesn't love his job, or where he lives, but is looking forward to having children and providing a place for them to grow up that THEY will love.

 

Life just doesn't always revolve around math. It just doesn't.

[DragonflyAcademy]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies... I have decided, after much thought and waffling and second guessing, to go with my first instinct.. which is 6/5. He does need to solidify his foundation in math.. and given that math is already a fight...I think we will start there.. and reassess as he gains confidence and skill.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Ok. I guess we will go with 7/6 and see how things go. he is GOOD in math.. but has poor confidence, poor retention and tends to make silly mistakes because he works too quickly.. He also needs to work on memorization of his times tables.. (oiy)

 

How much did your last math program require him to copy problems down from the book? This was a developmental point as my kids left the Saxon books that came with pre-printed workbooks.

 

I did get some good mileage with spending the time early on in the books (when lessons were easier) with insisting on complete, quality work. They had to show their work, in a legible format. Name on paper, answers circled or boxed so I could find their final answer.

 

We skipped 5/4 and went directly into 6/5 from Saxon 3. And there were times that we would test through the early sections of a new book. On the other hand, I also used this early time to make sure they were doing the full lesson process.

 

I learned the hard way that it is worth taking the time for the facts practice and mental math. And also to do all of the problems, not just the odd ones. These are essential parts of the Saxon lesson as it is designed. They preview upcoming concepts and review things that are already introduced. (If he's prone to silly mistakes, I would especially emphasize the fact sheets and mental math. It's ok if these take a long time at first. There is a recording sheet in the back of the test workbook that will help him see progress.) Ironically, when I started requiring all 30 mixed practice problems, my kids actually got faster at completing lessons. I think this was because they didn't have so many days between seeing a problem.

 

We've now moved into AoPS Algebra (and old copies of Dolciani) as we hit the Algebra range. I wanted to dwell more on a concept and not spiral at this point. But for the earlier grades, I still like Saxon.

 

BTW, I disagree with the idea that Saxon doesn't teach the conceptual why behind a problem. I think there are programs that dig deeper into making the student develop this understanding for themselves. But when my kids have been stuck in Saxon and we've looked back at the previous lesson, the explanation was usually there (but they had skimmed through it). You might want to point out that the mixed practice has small numbers next to the problem number; these refer back to the applicable lesson for that problem. My kids didn't realize that it was OK to refer back to the earlier lessons in the book. I had to remind them that looking back at an explanation wasn't cheating, it was a problem solving skill.

[...................]

The PRIMARY goal of Saxon isn't to make math interesting. Trying to place a child in Saxon with that goal as the PRIMARY goal is going to lead to frustration.

 

"Average" isn't a GOAL. "Average" is something most people ARE, and there is NOTHING shameful about being average in general, or average in a specific area. Even the gifted--which are a MINORITY--are not gifted in ALL areas.

 

It's the government's job to push math and science right now, as they did in the early cold war. It's our job as parents to not get caught up in fear and propaganda, and decide what is best for our individual children. Life doesn't start and end with money, and it also doesn't start and end with math.

 

The turtle won the race.

 

Homeschooling is a marathon, not a sprint. Everyone who has ever watched a marathon, knows what happens to the people who get scared and try to keep up with the leaders of the pack, and abandon their own pace.

 

I FREAKED over my older son's refusal to buckle down with math, but by 12 he was bigger than me, and by 14 was almost twice my size. He was willing to work and study business, but not apply himself to math. He was working hard, so hard it was against the law, but just at what HE wanted to apply himself to. He applied himself to math only as far as he had to to reach HIS goals. I'm not advocating less than a year of Algebra, I'm really not...but have also had no choice but to stand back and watch him do JUST fine. He married and built a house at 24, and pays more in taxes than his father earns. He took off across the country at 19, financially independent and has worked for the same fortune 500 company since he was 19. He's stable. He doesn't love his job, or where he lives, but is looking forward to having children and providing a place for them to grow up that THEY will love.

 

Life just doesn't always revolve around math. It just doesn't.

 

And I say :

 

1. I don't see a lot of moms here "freaking,". "listening to government propaganda," or "getting scared.". Certainly not myself.

 

2. Average is not my goal. Not in character, not in academics. I also don't advocate "freaking," "pushing," or stressing kiddos out. There is a balance.

 

3. Seems to me I'm not the one who needs to take a chill pill.

 

Honestly I hear where you are coming from and I know this might be an issue dear to your heart (or a hobby horse) but really you are barking up the wrong tree and put exaggerated spins on things.

[SilverMoon]

How much did your last math program require him to copy problems down from the book? This was a developmental point as my kids left the Saxon books that came with pre-printed workbooks.

The OP said he came from Rod and Staff 5, which is also a textbook. :001_smile:

 

Ok. I guess we will go with 7/6 and see how things go. he is GOOD in math.. but has poor confidence, poor retention and tends to make silly mistakes because he works too quickly.. He also needs to work on memorization of his times tables.. (oiy)

 

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies... I have decided, after much thought and waffling and second guessing, to go with my first instinct.. which is 6/5. He does need to solidify his foundation in math.. and given that math is already a fight...I think we will start there.. and reassess as he gains confidence and skill.

 

Here's a blog post with SWB quotes for you to read. it's on curriculum fitting the child.

 

If you do go with the lower book, consider letting him use the chapter tests to get beyond the redundant material. A kid who isn't challenged will fight it, even if it's a subject they generally don't even like. :001_smile:

[Hunter]

And I say :

 

1. I don't see a lot of moms here "freaking,". "listening to government propaganda," or "getting scared.". Certainly not myself.

 

2. Average is not my goal. Not in character, not in academics. I also don't advocate "freaking," "pushing," or stressing kiddos out. There is a balance.

 

3. Seems to me I'm not the one who needs to take a chill pill.

 

Honestly I hear where you are coming from and I know this might be an issue dear to your heart (or a hobby horse) but really you are barking up the wrong tree and put exaggerated spins on things.

 

Whether it's a hobby horse or not, AGAIN

 

"Average" isn't a GOAL. "Average" is something most people ARE,

[DragonflyAcademy]

We have gone with 7/6 and so far, it is fine.. the review is very helpful and while he isn't happy about the 30 problems...he is doing well.. and even said today that the extra review I assigned (supplemental practice for an area he was having problems with) was very helpful..

 

:)