Janie Grace Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) We have a seven-month-old English Shepherd (think Aussie/border collie mix). He has been a great puppy so far -- responsive to learning commands (sit, lie down, stay, roll over, shake, leave it, etc), very gentle with the "baby" (my 2yo), eager to please, etc. My 5yo son has always been a bit skittish about him -- the only one of our five kids to have some fear towards dogs. There are times when I have to speak to him about being harsh towards the dog (yelling at him, pressing down on his back to "correct" him), but generally they are fine together. Ds doesn't spend time petting the dog, and the dog doesn't greet him with joy the way he does the rest of us. They are just kind of ambivalent towards each other. Today, the dog (out of the blue) jumped up and bit him on the face. This happened twice in about a minute. He wasn't growling or angry, it was just this matter-of-fact action (I can't think of a better way to describe it). The first time, I wasn't in the room, came in, verbally corrected the dog, and then it happened again. Ds was just walking by and the dog jumped up and nipped him. The bites didn't break the skin, but ds is (understandably) very upset and now even MORE nervous around the dog. What should I do??? I know a lot of people say "get rid of the dog" as soon as something like this happens, but I have to think there is a way to intervene and fix this. He's still a puppy. Does anyone have ideas? Obviously I will not risk my ds's safety to keep this dog. I will be present anytime they are around each other. What would you do in my shoes? Also, I wanted to mention two other things... this is a "herding" breed but so far we haven't seen any herding tendencies. Also, this dog is not neutered yet. The breeder said to wait til he is one year old as it's better for them health-wise. But I am now wondering if that would help. He is starting to mount the (fixed) female neighbor dog and is getting rougher towards other dogs. Edited August 13, 2012 by Janie Grace more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickelfritz Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 My dog had a similar incident, though with a strange (to the dog) kid. We talked to the vet, who recommended a specific dog trainer. She came out and evaluated the dog. She felt he could be rehabilitated. We are doing in-home training sessions to deal with this dog's specific issues. They are more expensive than a class situation, but considering we get a 1hr private lesson, they are reasonable. I hesitate to give you all of the parameters that made her decide the dog could be saved, because there are probably some that she didn't verbalize. So, my advice is to get a professional to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 these working dogs are notorious nippers. That is how they work the cattle. Nipping at them. Not so good when their "herd" consists of children. I'd get a dog trainer recommendation ASAP. These dogs can be great dogs, but you definitely want to get on it quickly. I agree with you that this situation can b e saved. But please start training soon, working dogs need a firm hand because they are SO doggone smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Today, the dog (out of the blue) jumped up and bit him on the face. This happened twice in about a minute. He wasn't growling or angry, it was just this matter-of-fact action (I can't think of a better way to describe it). The first time, I wasn't in the room, came in, verbally corrected the dog, and then it happened again. Ds was just walking by and the dog jumped up and nipped him. The bites didn't break the skin, but ds is (understandably) very upset and now even MORE nervous around the dog. What should I do??? I know a lot of people say "get rid of the dog" as soon as something like this happens, but I have to think there is a way to intervene and fix this. He's still a puppy. Does anyone have ideas? Obviously I will not risk my ds's safety to keep this dog. I will be present anytime they are around each other. What would you do in my shoes? Also, I wanted to mention two other things... this is a "herding" breed but so far we haven't seen any herding tendencies. Also, this dog is not neutered yet. The breeder said to wait til he is one year old as it's better for them health-wise. But I am now wondering if that would help. He is starting to mount the (fixed) female neighbor dog and is getting rougher towards other dogs. This is normal behavior for an untrained herding dog. Neutering might curb it some, but some of it is instinctive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vettechmomof2 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 these working dogs are notorious nippers. That is how they work the cattle. Nipping at them. Not so good when their "herd" consists of children. I'd get a dog trainer recommendation ASAP. These dogs can be great dogs, but you definitely want to get on it quickly. I agree with you that this situation can b e saved. But please start training soon, working dogs need a firm hand because they are SO doggone smart. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vettechmomof2 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Until starting a training class, you should also have a health check done to rule out possible health issues leading to this and yes, even growing puppies can have health problems pop up. I would keep him tethered to you or your husband, it will reinforce the control of him and the situations that he or your son might be in as well as give you great oppurtunity's throughout the day to work on simple commands such as stay,sits and downs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Neutering will not correct things like nipping at people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflections Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I have almost zero experience, so take this for what it is worth, but it sounds to me like the dog feels he can dominate your ds and so is trying to do that. I agree with everyone else about a trainer asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Ditto those who've said that nipping behavior is instinctive in the herding breeds. IMO they aren't the best choices for homes with young children for this reason. Not to say it can't work, but there are certainly a few things you need to do. First is that at no time should the puppy be alone with the kids w/o you or another adult present. And that's general advice that goes for everyone -- it's just an incredibly bad idea to leave young children and puppies (and most grown dogs) in a room by themselves. And I know you already said you wouldn't do it anymore (great!) but I wanted to reiterate it for anyone else reading. Are you familiar with the Nothing in Life is Free method? If not, Google it and start implementing it right away. The basic idea is that the dog works for everything he gets. He wants to be petted, he has to do a "sit" first. Time for supper? He has to do a "down" before he gets his food. Want to go outside? The door doesn't get opened until he sits. You get the idea, but do Google it for more info. Get your kids and spouse on board, too. One thing you can do as part of that is when it's feeding time let your kids take turns giving the dog his food bowl. While you supervise, of course, and with a "sit" or "down" required first. Providing food helps reinforce to the dog the idea that this is a person he should take seriously. And it's a very easy thing to do. At the very least start looking for a good training class. Hiring a trainer who can come to your home and have a look at the pup in his own surroundings is great if you can afford it. Training is not only for learning the basic commands (although that's great, of course). But it also helps tire a dog out mentally. As far as neutering -- There are different schools of thought on when is the best time to have it done. For pet dogs who aren't going to participate in competitive dog sports (agility, flyball, etc.) I don't see any reason to not get it done around six months old. So if he were my dog he would've already been snipped. Neutering won't cure the nipping behavior, but it very well may help calm him down a little. Talk to your vet about it. Another thought is -- How much exercise is your pup getting? That's a pretty high-energy breed for a household with young kids (where the parents may be short on time). He really needs some significant hard running exercise every single day. And don't overlook mental exercise. IMO it's just as important as physical exercise. Training basic commands and tricks and playing hide-and-seek games with a favorite toy can all help. You've got a breed that requires a lot of both forms of exercise. Edited August 13, 2012 by Pawz4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Neutering will not correct things like nipping at people. Neutering CAN help with aggression and the mounting behavior. Nipping can be an aggressive act, or a herding instinct. It's hard to gauge that, although I'd almost go with herding over aggression since he wasn't displaying any other aggressive behavior prior to the nipping. He may also be trying to establish pack order and view your son as the weakest link -- especially since he avoids the dog the dog may not view him as an authority figure. 7 months is that nasty teen age dogs go through, so acting out and testing boundaries is normal. This dog can be saved. I agree that if you can afford to it would be best to invest in a one-on-one professional trainer, or at the very least have the dog evaluated and then brought to group training sessions. Edited to add: We chose not to neuter our GSD until he was over a year old because we wanted all of his secondary sex characteristics to come out. For our dog, that was fine. There was another GSD in our class who was neutered around 8 months partially at the trainer's suggestion. He was very high-energy, willful, and he'd begun to display aggression towards people and dogs. Getting neutered didn't fix all the issues, but it went a long way in helping. Edited August 13, 2012 by jujsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 If your son had suddenly started moving, this is herding behavior. It is how a shepherd's prey drive shows up. I would get a professional trainer with experience with herding dogs involved to help with correcting the nipping. Our Belgian shepherd used to try to herd me when he was young. If I suddenly went from being still to moving across the room, he would come at me diagonally and nip at me. I had to learn how to establish dominance with him. I corrected his nip every time, immediately, and learned how to herd him back. When DS1 became a fast moving toddler, we kept our shepherd gated into his room or on a short leash until we taught him not to herd the little human. He did learn this. He is smart and trainable. BTW he has never been a dominant or aggressive dog - he just has a natural drive to herd. I think it would be more difficult to train this out of a dog that was very dominant or that tended to be aggressive. I do wish more people who think they want these breeds in their home understood the herding drive. A lot of dogs end up in rescue because the herding drive and how it can affect a dog's suitability as a family pet is not understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker of Schole Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Another thought - is your dog getting enough exercise? That will help. As the others have already pointed out, this is his herding behavior showing up. Your son has not shown dominance, so the dog is dominating him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thanks for the input, all. I have some calls in to trainers (recommended by the vet). Not sure what we'll be able to afford but I definitely want to pursue this if possible, even if it's just a group class. We hadn't pursued that yet because he has been so easy to train in terms of commands. He probably does need more exercise. He gets a good walk in the morning, but probably needs another good long one in the evening. For a while, it seemed like even the length of the morning walk was too much for him, but perhaps we need to adjust that to his growing size (ie, more exercise now that he's bigger). He *could* have been herding. It was sort of a chaotic moment -- two other boys and I were going to and from the car, bringing in groceries and setting bags all over the floor and table. Dd13 was helping the 2yo, who was having a crying meltdown about his lunch. Ds5 (who was bitten) was just sort of milling around in the midst of it all. I wonder if the dog felt that he needed to bring order to the situation. I will revisit the neutering question with the breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 If your son had suddenly started moving, this is herding behavior. It is how a shepherd's prey drive shows up. I would get a professional trainer with experience with herding dogs involved to help with correcting the nipping. Our Belgian shepherd used to try to herd me when he was young. If I suddenly went from being still to moving across the room, he would come at me diagonally and nip at me. I had to learn how to establish dominance with him. I corrected his nip every time, immediately, and learned how to herd him back. When DS1 became a fast moving toddler, we kept our shepherd gated into his room or on a short leash until we taught him not to herd the little human. He did learn this. He is smart and trainable. BTW he has never been a dominant or aggressive dog - he just has a natural drive to herd. I think it would be more difficult to train this out of a dog that was very dominant or that tended to be aggressive. I do wish more people who think they want these breeds in their home understood the herding drive. A lot of dogs end up in rescue because the herding drive and how it can affect a dog's suitability as a family pet is not understood. My ds just told me that he had been walking toward me to ask for a snack, then stopped walking, and the dog bit him. Does that sound like herding? How specifically did you correct the nip and herd him back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 My ds just told me that he had been walking toward me to ask for a snack, then stopped walking, and the dog bit him. Does that sound like herding? How specifically did you correct the nip and herd him back? It sound like perhaps the dog was telling the "animal" to "keep moving". I want to be clear, this was me, not a child. This was also pre-kids. I grabbed our pup by the muzzle, held it shut, yelled NO right in his face, and pushed him to the ground. Then I got the training lead and did about 20 minutes of sits and downs and heeling with him. He was in training with a pro literally from when he came home with us as 12 weeks so I had this line of communication open with him. I did this with him every time he tried nipping at me. He never did give up herding me, but it only took a few sessions of attitude adjustment for him to give up the nipping. Anyway, he is 12 and still occasionally tries to herd me when I start moving quickly, almost like a game, with a smile on his face. When I herd him back, I come at him in a straight diagonal line toward his shoulder. It makes him turn ! With a child, an adult has to do the training of course. With our small human mobile, I kept the training tab and training collar on the dog anytime he was out from behind his gate. When DS1 started moving and the shepherd went to herd, he got a sharp correction with the tab and was often put away for a while too. Eventually he quit trying to herd the boy at all. He would want to, but he would look at me and whine instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniBlondes Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 It sounds like the pup is trying to 'herd' your son and possible even feels that he is above your son in the pack order. This is where you, the pack leader, will have to step in and teach him his place. You should hire a trainer ASAP because it is likely to escalate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 My dog "nipped" the toes and fingers of my youngest, who for some reason he has never liked. He nips generally when it is close to feeding time and has been very gentle about it, never breaking the skin. They call this "good bit control." The dog did end up biting me very badly 8 yrs after this behavior started. He was sick when he did it, but I can no longer trust him. My husband at the time wouldn't allow me to put him to sleep, so he is still with us. I mention this to say, that I've had dogs all my life, and its my opinion that those that start off as nippers, even with good bite control are more likely to cause an injurious bite some time down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 We raised a Belgian Malinois from 6 weeks of age to 14 years old. Beautiful dog. But a heck of a LOT OF WORK when he was a puppy. I agree with the other posters about dominance and being consistent with training. We were fortunate to have no children the first 3 years of raising our dog. I devoted close to 60-75 minutes a day (after work) working with him and training him. He was very intelligent and needed a lot of attention. Once our baby was born, the pack order bumped him down but he was allowed supervised time indoors. (He was primarily an outdoor dog.) We would never allow our son alone with the dog... ever. Mind you, our dog was well trained and passed many obedience courses. But our son was always supervised with the dog. It paid off when son was older and our dog was more mature and bonded with him. The tables turned and he became very protective of him and still herded him by doing a back-hip "bump" in ds' tush -- to move him along if our son was dilly-dallying. :D But by then ds was close to 8 or 9 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I mention this to say, that I've had dogs all my life, and its my opinion that those that start off as nippers, even with good bite control are more likely to cause an injurious bite some time down the road. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) We raised a Belgian Malinois from 6 weeks of age to 14 years old. Beautiful dog. But a heck of a LOT OF WORK when he was a puppy. I agree with the other posters about dominance and being consistent with training. We were fortunate to have no children the first 3 years of raising our dog. I devoted close to 60-75 minutes a day (after work) working with him and training him. He was very intelligent and needed a lot of attention. Once our baby was born, the pack order bumped him down but he was allowed supervised time indoors. (He was primarily an outdoor dog.) We would never allow our son alone with the dog... ever. Mind you, our dog was well trained and passed many obedience courses. But our son was always supervised with the dog. It paid off when son was older and our dog was more mature and bonded with him. The tables turned and he became very protective of him and still herded him by doing a back-hip "bump" in ds' tush -- to move him along if our son was dilly-dallying. :D But by then ds was close to 8 or 9 years old. Your situation sounds so similar to ours - ours is a Belgian Tervuren, born three years before our first child. We started classes with a professional trainer at about 12 weeks. He was a ton of work when he was young, and we did training homework with him consistently every weekday, and classes on the weekends, for about two years. And he needed a lot of consistent discipline at home. He turned into a wonderful dog, but it's good we did not have children when we went through his puppyhood and training. Knowing what I know about the breed now, I would be hesitant to choose this breed for our household with the ages of our kids right now, because it would be very difficult to put in the time needed to train the dog. They are very smart, but they have a strong innate drive to do the job they were bred for and it takes a lot of training to make them into house animals. Also, I don't think any nipping is acceptable, even with good bite control, and whether it is associated with herding, fear, or anything. It's not okay. Stopping it takes very strong, consistent correction, but it's essential for safety. Edited August 13, 2012 by laundrycrisis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhrice3 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I have agree about herding dogs - this is what they do and how they get it done. Our current shepherd was a nipper until about 2 yrs. He only nipped when someone was running or yelling, but my then 6 yr old dd had a tooth mark on the back side of every pair of tights. She loved him "chasing" her. As a very lil pup, he would nip at people's ankles if he wanted to play and we were ignoring him. We neutered him at 6 mos because he started "mounting" things and he was getting really large. Neutering him did not do much but stop the mounting which I was happy about. He grew out of the nipping for the most part - he did it one time when he was about 4 to some neighbors' kids who were running and screaming and "tagging" him on the back. All in all, he is a big sweetie at 110 lbs, but with all that said, I would look into a trainer for group sessions with your son. I think their future relationship might depend on it. Who knows - with the proper help they might be best buds. Good luck, ReneeR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhschool Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Our 2 bad mutts (I love them!) nip us all the time. It doesn't hurt--it's their way of saying hi. Their teeth are very gentle and they make funny eyes when they are doing it. They are supposedly a mix of border collie and boxer. So, a nipper and a clown. Teach your son to walk tall and never get on the floor to play with the dog. When DC was 8 DC got down on the floor to play with the mutts. They were little puppies then, but they ran over and nipped DC's ears. No blood, no pain, but a big surprise! DC learned quickly to not act like a puppy too, but to walk tall like "the master" of the dogs. They nip our hands to say hello now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoKat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 these working dogs are notorious nippers. That is how they work the cattle. Nipping at them. Not so good when their "herd" consists of children. I'd get a dog trainer recommendation ASAP. These dogs can be great dogs, but you definitely want to get on it quickly. I agree with you that this situation can b e saved. But please start training soon, working dogs need a firm hand because they are SO doggone smart. Yes, they are smart. We have an aussie/collie and she's figured out how to open all the doors in our house. :)) She herds our chickens and then she goes to my mother's house down the road and does her too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolamum Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Nipping is a puppy thing, but I'd "nip" it in the bud right quick. My sil chose to giggle about her dog doing it & now her female harasses my children everytime they are there. To the point she has to lock that dog up & her other dog will attack the one who bites my children. It's frustrating for us, & embarrassing for her. We have a herder, he use to herd the neighbors sheep.. without permission. Talk about embarrassing!! He herds us {the whole family} when we are out for walks. It drives him INSANE to be in a lead if he can't herd us. It's fun to watch him go to be honest. He'll whine if we separate as a family & go various ways. He'll just stand there torn & whine until I say, "Get the children." Then he rounds up the children & stays with them. However, showing instincts to it or not, he'll need to be kept busy. I know most dogs need to be kept busy, but some dogs need to be kept busy in a creative way. Our herder gets BORED quickly so we have things to keep him active mentally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 we have a border collie that tries to herd me. He thinks I belong in the house and every time he sees me come out the door he tries to heard me back in. he did try nipping me once, but got told right off, He now nose buts my knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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