Xuzi Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 DD turns 8 in a couple of weeks. Last night I went into her room to turn out the light at bed time, and she was reading a book of fairy tales. I asked her to tell me about the story she just read, and she opened up the book, and pointed to the illustrations that went with the story to tell me about it (it was the Emperor's New Clothes). Everything she "knew" about the story was from the pictures. I asked her if she'd read the words, and she said yes, and yet she couldn't tell me a single thing about what she'd read. I've been noticing this lately with DD. She'll read only parts of books, or "read" a book but spend a lot of time looking at the pictures. She *can* read the words, but her comprehension of what she reads seems to be sorely lacking. I feel awful, like I've dropped the ball with her. I'm wondering if she's got an LD that I just had failed to notice until now. She has an aunt (DH's sister) with an LD who has to read things several times before she can understand them. I'm wondering if DD might have the same. Should I consider having her evaluated by our local PS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Before you do evals, I would have her read alongside you for a while. You can check her reading ability and ask comprehension questions along the way. Then decide whether she needs a phonics refresher, work on vocabulary, reading comprehension, or just encouragement to be more intentional about her reading and not use pictures as a crutch. You might start with Aesop's Fables or something similarly short, have her read the (unillustrated) story, and draw her own picture to go along with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you are esp. concerned, you may want to x-post on the special needs board: many there are working with learning disabilities as well aw with neurotypical siblings, and may have good perspective. I would say that comprehension from reading is really a difficult skill, and would suggest that you try teaching it explicitly, starting with a sentence or so at a time if you like. I found it easy to teach Button with sentences from Reading Pathways (will add the link later), which has reading pyramids like this: Bob Bob ran. Bob ran past Bob ran past Jane. I'd have Button read the first line, "Bob", then pause and I might say, "This is about Bob! What do you think is going to happen to Bob?" or something like that. Then he reads: "Bob ran." Pause, discuss: What did Bob do? child can answer, "He ran." Enthusiastic response, full of energy and warmth: "Yes he did! He ran!!!" Now we didn't pause for every. single. line., but we did more when comprehension was lagging, and I was like a cheerleader on, well, I don't know what they take these days -- maybe a cheerleader on steroids??? so enthusiastic and warm. I think this book is esp. helpful for teaching comprehension, though it is meant for reading decoding skills. I have to take Button to a summer Lego class now, but wanted to add: there are several threads on doing Charlotte-Mason style narration with a child, and how to help them learn to narrate. This would be with oral readings -- have you done WWE with her? Is she fine on the oral but not on the reading independently? if you have not done oral narrations, I'd start there -- read her a paragraph of something, with good expression, and teach her to tell some of it back to you. Then maybe move to her reading written sections and telling them to you. okay must go! HTH... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 She's done several oral narrations as we use both WWE, and SOTW, and even FLL has some lessons that require the student to narrate. It just seems like I *always* have to review things with her, and break things down, and I guess I'm just surprised to still be needing to do it for her so much. And when I asked if she "saw" the story in her imagination when she read or heard a story, she said "No". Is that typical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The information you've got right now is pretty vague. Yes, if a person has developmental vision problems (not an LD but vision problems), they might not visualize as they read. When someone is having problems with school work I ALWAYS recommend getting their eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. You can just get a regular exam with one and let them *screen* for the extra things they check. Won't cost you more but the check more. Then if they find something they have a full developmental vision eval they can do. To find a developmental optometrist you look at COVD. Make sure you get some feedback from people who've used the one you're considering. Fellows are generally a good place to start. Have you done any standardized testing yet? You have no clue how she's reading and comprehending without some objective testing. I've found the McCall Crabbs books (what SWR recommends) and the various standardized tests we've done (WIAT, Woodcock Johnson, CAT) all pretty much gave about the same results. You just need something objective. If she IS reading on grade level and has age-appropriate comprehension, then you're next question is attention issues. (ie. you pursue a neuropsychologist eval. They'll look at IQ, processing speed, attention, motor control, all sorts of stuff.) Just sort through it. Might as well deal with it now as later, as most things don't just go away. It's faster to get into the optometrist than the neuropsych, so again that's why it's a good place to start. You can probably get into the optometrist in a couple weeks, and the neuropsych would take 1-3 months, and that's AFTER you find a good one (which can take a while). Sometimes insurance will require a trip to the ped first to get the ducks in a row for the neuropsych eval. BTW, you can also back up and do some phonemic awareness testing using the pretest at the Barton site and the info at http://phonologicalawareness.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 She's done several oral narrations as we use both WWE, and SOTW, and even FLL has some lessons that require the student to narrate. It just seems like I *always* have to review things with her, and break things down, and I guess I'm just surprised to still be needing to do it for her so much. And when I asked if she "saw" the story in her imagination when she read or heard a story, she said "No". Is that typical? I don't know if it is typical ... Button doesn't do it naturally, I've been (sporadically) working on visualizing stories with him. But if she has the same challenges with oral narrations, then her difficulty probably isn't with reading per se. You might want to tell her how to imagine the stories, and do a bit at a time -- read about a dragon maybe, and pause and chat about what the dragon looks like, sounds like, smells like, how we feel about it, then read more and repeat? I'd think a little of this would go a long way: it would be tiring, but doing it occasionally may help teach her to visualize. Narration can be like pulling teeth! Button recalls many things well, but doesn't do narration easily at all. I've backed up to doing a paragraph at a time. He can't narrate from SOTW well, I think b/c actually the history is pretty complicated and he doesn't really understand how everything fits together. For history I'm using a different text now, and before we read it I show him a big page I've made with key words and concepts on it, and we discuss. Then I read the section, and prompt his narration in reply -- this narration can include other information outside of the reading, things he knew already or is interested in. don't know if any of that seems to apply ... I' :bigear: for other folks' ideas and insights ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 The information you've got right now is pretty vague. Yes, if a person has developmental vision problems (not an LD but vision problems), they might not visualize as they read. When someone is having problems with school work I ALWAYS recommend getting their eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. You can just get a regular exam with one and let them *screen* for the extra things they check. Won't cost you more but the check more. Then if they find something they have a full developmental vision eval they can do. To find a developmental optometrist you look at COVD. Make sure you get some feedback from people who've used the one you're considering. Fellows are generally a good place to start. Have you done any standardized testing yet? You have no clue how she's reading and comprehending without some objective testing. I've found the McCall Crabbs books (what SWR recommends) and the various standardized tests we've done (WIAT, Woodcock Johnson, CAT) all pretty much gave about the same results. You just need something objective. If she IS reading on grade level and has age-appropriate comprehension, then you're next question is attention issues. (ie. you pursue a neuropsychologist eval. They'll look at IQ, processing speed, attention, motor control, all sorts of stuff.) Just sort through it. Might as well deal with it now as later, as most things don't just go away. It's faster to get into the optometrist than the neuropsych, so again that's why it's a good place to start. You can probably get into the optometrist in a couple weeks, and the neuropsych would take 1-3 months, and that's AFTER you find a good one (which can take a while). Sometimes insurance will require a trip to the ped first to get the ducks in a row for the neuropsych eval. BTW, you can also back up and do some phonemic awareness testing using the pretest at the Barton site and the info at http://phonologicalawareness.org/ For the eye check, would I just call up a regular optometrist office to find one, or should I call a hospital? I'd love to get her into these kinds of evals, but I'd have no clue where to even start looking for the persons who could do them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 http://covd.org/ They have a doctor finder. You want to take a little time and find the best you can, because some are better or doing it more than others. I called about 10 in our area (1 hour drive), and I found some who basically put out a shingle but were only doing it on the side and some who do it so much they have full-time practices of vision therapy with multiple therapists and write for textbooks. Fellows are typically a better bet. It's always ideal if you can get feedback. It's like any other kind of doctor, where they can vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 It may be that she just doesn't visualize well or has weak concept imagery. This is not necessarily an LD, but Visualizing and Verbalizing really helps remediate this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 She could just be a visual learner. I am not so good at picturing things, I like to look at them, touch them, move them around etc.... Check out some things, but it might just be her learning style. My ds is an auditory learner, it is not a ld, just different to my learning style, and I make adjustments for it. Best of luck, but try not to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I agree with the "Visualizing and Verbalizing" recommendation. What you can do is pick a paragraph or so of a story or nonfiction piece. Read one sentence to her, then ask her what she pictures for that sentence. For example, if the sentence was: "The girl walked in the rain." you would ask her what she pictures - How can she tell the girl is in the rain? Is she wearing rain boots? What color? Is she carrying an umbrella? Is she walking down the street or on the grass? Try to get as detailed as possible. Then move on to the next sentence. You may have to change the picture if there is new information in the next sentence. Talk about what she pictures for each detail. Continue this with different stories/nonfiction pieces each day. After she is able to picture a sentence without much prompting/questioning from you, move on to a few sentences at a time and then a paragraph. Eventually she should be able to read without stopping to make the pictures in her mind. Hope that helps a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 The "Visualizing and Verbalizing", is it only available at learning centers? Is there no "at home" guides or anything I could purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Reading Is Seeing is based on visualizing text as well. It is a great book, and reasonably priced. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 How do people find pediatric neuropsychs? Honestly, we're in Virginia, and I can't find ANY in the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 How do people find pediatric neuropsychs? Honestly, we're in Virginia, and I can't find ANY in the state. Look under pediatric psychologists--some do neuropsych testing. Here's one, for example, that I found by googling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Writerdaddy Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Hi Xuzi, So glad I read your post. I have faced the EXACT same problem (I think-- of course go forward with eye exams, etc.) at the exact same age-- on the cusp of 8 years old. Interestingly, I have twin boy and girl, the girl not having trouble with comprehension and the boy having it. I was totally PSYCHED! to get started with WTM and Charlotte Mason-- but my son just drew a blank. Sure I broke it down sentence by sentence just like you, but when was it going to come together? He could read okay but wasn't processing anything. Here's what I did: Visualizing and Verbalizing-- I ordered the workbooks but turned them into oral exercises. Unfortunately I did not buy the manual due to financial constraints at the time so did not really know the method-- but just having visual and sensory rich text to work with and strategic questions to ask seemed to be helpful in itself. Perhaps with the manual this will be a very effective program although I imagine that it will take some thoughtfulness and trial and error to put it into practice on one's own. But I could be wrong and it might be quite easy and straightforward. Most V/V materials have something it calls HOT questions (higher order thinking questions) which are VERY well-designed, brilliant even, and make the rest of the workbook or other book well worth the price. The questions are a step above those in most reading comprehension workbooks and specifically engage the ability to visualize. And yes, there are plenty of at-home materials available-- probably the workbooks and the manual would be a good buy. IdeaChain-- this is an out of the box program and if you want to throw money at the problem (over $200-300 with shipping-- I forget now), then I do recommend you throw it, open the box when it arrives, and go. Since you mentioned "centers" then it sounds like you are willing. IdeaChain has a scripted curriculum designed to encourage visualization in reading and writing, with lots of activities that are game-like. As you do it, it just makes plain sense. It's been described on the boards here as the scripted version of V/V, which may be true, but it's obvious that a lot of very specific thought and first hand experience has been applied to it. Unfortunately no samples are available, although it has a full no hassle money back guarantee. The reason being-- once you learn how to do it there is no reason to buy the product. The company tries hard to package the product in a binder with accessories etc. to make it look physically worth the price, but the fact is that you are buying an idea, and a script. The idea and script is worth the money in results, just not in how it looks. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I know how you feel. While my son has not become a willing reader, his comprehension has improved dramatically. Like everything else we do, however, I can't say for sure why-- was it the programs? did he just grow out of it? what would have happened if I didn't do V/V and IdeaChain? I have no way of knowing. At least we all feel better about reading! Edited August 10, 2012 by Writerdaddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Okay, I found V&V on Amazon. The price!!! :scared: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Writerdaddy Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Not sure what you are looking at, but you DO NOT need the whole curriculum packages that are 400-500 dollars. Most of those cover multiple grade levels and include classroom size giant books, etc. It would be better to go to gander publishing directly and look through site to get an explanation of what you might want. Also, there are a ton of samples of just about every product there. http://www.ganderpublishing.com/Visualizing-and-Verbalizing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 If you are comfortable finding the pictures yourself, you really only need the TM for V/V. And yeah, even that price can give you a bit of sticker shock, but frankly anything used for remediation of a skill is going to be $$$. Those of us with kids with LDs have learned this the hard way. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 How do people find pediatric neuropsychs? Honestly, we're in Virginia, and I can't find ANY in the state. Ask on homeschool lists, the SN board, or other therapists like the OT, COVD, etc. That's how I found ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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