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The right to bear arms vs. the desire to bear arms


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We see bears on a regular basis. I think we've counted 8 different ones since April. I don't use an air horn- so far clapping and talking loudly is enough to make them scamper off.

 

That didn't work so well for me when I accidentally ran into a momma with three cubs (one last years). I also doubt it would work well for me if I ran into the grizzly in our south field. Sure that big boy is happy to stay out of your way if you let him know you're coming, but if you run into him by accident, well those guys aren't really known for getting out of your way.

 

No I didn't shoot the momma bear. Although I would've if I had had to. Our dog at the time managed to catch her attention and I backed out of there. Yelling at her just seemed to make her more annoyed at me.

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I do not live in NYC.

 

 

I think there has to be malicious intent in NY State. So a child finding a gun in a drawer under shirts and bras, or under a mattres, and shooting accidently, is not considered 'intent'. I am guessing the children were very young? Not teens? GUns need to be locked, and not loaded. Yes. I can't wrap my head around loaded guns waiting to be found by kids. Children seem to find the most hidden of objects.

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I don't fear those things. We have only one shy venomous snake and no large carnivorous mammals. Burglars rarely come armed because they don't expect to meet a gun in the home. Government oppression..... just doesn't occur to me.

 

As an outsider - here I go again, answering one of Heather's questions and putting my head in the lion's mouth.... Heather, you've just got to stop doing this - the passion for guns seems disproportionate and self-destructive. We have a problem with knife-crime in Britain, but knives are usually limited in their killing potential. To put weapons capable of such carnage in the hands of often unbalanced people just seems out of balance with the stated advantages of widespread gun ownership.

 

Guys.... I was asked my opinion. Please don't jump down my throat. I was asked and I answered.

 

Laura

 

 

sorry! :blushing:

 

 

.

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If I didn't want to join in I could just walk away.... I'm enjoying your insights into your native land after a period away. It's an interesting stage in expatriate life.

 

Laura

 

It DEFINITELY is an interesting stage. I remember the first year I was here and the Olympics were going and of course I was rooting for the USA.

 

Now I still root for the USA but I also root for all these other countries...

 

A diver from GB comes up and I say "Oh! That's Debbie's country!" and I cheer for him or her.

 

A runner from S. Africa comes up and I say "Oh! That's Jasmane's country! and I cheer for him or her.

 

My ds (adopted from Korea) and the rest of us cheered like mad whenever a Korean competed.

 

And you should have seen the cheering going on in our house when Malaysia played China in the badminton finals! :D

 

 

It has really changed my whole perspective on life in general. I am still a proud American, but I feel like a citizen of the world now, too.

 

Thank you for offering your insight!

.

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:iagree:

 

I completely accept and respect that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the Constitution (though I also believe the government has the right to place restrictions like background checks) and that it is a basic right here in the US. And that some studies have shown that guns are a deterrent to crime (though I've seen others that show the opposite - my own belief is that that jury is out on that question). And that some people really enjoy guns and gun culture. In fact, my father is an avid hunter and keeps many guns so I grew up around guns.

 

But the people in this thread who are acting like those of us who don't want guns have something wrong with us or are missing some critical piece of culture? I don't get that at all. And I feel like that's exactly the overzealous attitude Heather was talking about in her OP. There are some things in life that I do think people should be exposed to culturally, but there are a lot more that I think just aren't that important and guns definitely falls in the latter category - as do many things that I'm pretty into myself. If you're not into Joss Whedon or baking cookies or whatever, then I'm not going to argue you around.

 

I also don't buy the dangerous wildlife argument as a major factor. Sure, if you live in rural Montana, you might need a gun, but the number of people who live in places where a gun is really a basic necessity in this country is extremely small. As someone mentioned up thread - not every person in mountain lion country is carrying a gun because they're in fear of their lives. And not everyone who lives in areas with rattlesnakes does either.

 

Again, if people who do live in those places *want* to carry a gun for extra protection, then more power to them and I absolutely have no objection, but to say we would clearly get it if we did seems to miss the point that not everyone does in those places already.

 

:iagree: I agree with this post completely. I live in an area where cobras are rampant. I educate myself about how to avoid them. The thought of shooting or even killing one never even entered my head. I believe it is completely possible to be safe from wild animals or criminals without ever having to use a gun.

 

Many have said they would feel safe around people who are carrying - I would feel the opposite. A single person with a gun can cause a mass murder. I would feel extremely unsafe.

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I have not yet read any replies because I want to give my untainted thoughts first.

 

We own rifles (for hunting) and a pistol for protection. I am in the process of becoming more savvy with the pistol and want to have a concealed carry permit. Why do I want this? Here are the reasons in no particular order:

 

1. We live in a fairly rural, secluded lot in the woods. IF someone who doesn't belong here were to target our house (and if they can get around the German Shepherd that is also meant as a deterrent), WE will have to defend our family and property. If there were intention to bring us harm, it would be long over by the time law enforcement would arrive, if we can even manage to call. Owning and legally using a gun is no guarantee that we can fight back, (as would happen if someone barged in while I'm cooking dinner), but it is more certain than owning NO gun.

 

2. Though we have the constitutional right to own a gun, part of the desire to exercise that right is to fight the potential of that right to be restricted to the point of being moot. We have the right to vote, for example, but if we behave carelessly and most people just didn't bother to go vote, then the right is moot. By demonstrating a desire to exercise the right to own a gun, (and practice shooting, etc), we ensure the right continues to be protected.

 

3. I do believe making guns illegal does nothing but ensure that only criminals can get them (in America). I cannot say why some countries where guns are illegal do not have this problem; it may be because they don't have a gun-using culture in the first place. America does have a gun-using culture. This country is a separate country from England in part because the countryfolk were armed. Our history was created with firearms.

 

4. If it is possible that my family is armed, it is a deterrent to our victimization. If it is a near-certainty that we are unarmed (if guns were illegal, for instance), then we are sitting ducks IF someone targeted our home. It's the same theory as our intimidating dog. The presence of an intimidating dog on our property makes us a less-likely target, because we are not as easy to victimize. It's not that owning the dog makes use 100% safe from a criminal home attack, but it is one more obstacle that would tend to make someone look for an easier victim. (Not that I desire for anyone to be a victim, but I'd rather a criminal move along because our particular fortress is apparently harder to penetrate).

 

I say all this though I don't consider it likely or probable that one of us will ever have to wield the pistol to avert a criminal act; I am optimistic and I think the likelihood is very small. But I like knowing that we could protect ourselves with deadly force if it came to that.

 

:iagree:PLUS, I WOULD ADD THAT BEING FEMALE, A PISTOL, PROPERLY WIELDED IS A GREAT EQUALIZER IN A CONFRONTATION WITH A PHYSICALLY STRONGER ASSAILANT. IT MAY BE THE ONLY EQUALIZER.

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:iagree:PLUS, I WOULD ADD THAT BEING FEMALE, A PISTOL, PROPERLY WIELDED IS A GREAT EQUALIZER IN A CONFRONTATION WITH A PHYSICALLY STRONGER ASSAILANT. IT MAY BE THE ONLY EQUALIZER.

 

Yes, totally agree with that statement. I'm 5 feet tall, and female, and yes, I feel a lot safer knowing I have a gun I can access, that I know how to use properly, and have practiced with.

 

That said, I think the American gun love is partly that our country only exists because we fought for it, with guns, and that wasn't very long ago. WE are a very young country. We still have that generational memory.

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I haven't read the whole thread.

 

I think there are probably a few reasons.

 

I think in some cases it is just that shooting is a pretty popular hobby. Like soccer or hockey is popular in some places, in the US shooting is popular, and shooting in a kind of casual fun way, not just at a range or for training purposes.

 

I think another is the attitude towards government. Something unique I have heard from Americans is the idea that they might have to use their uns against their government. I think that is a pretty unusual sentiment. In the case of the Swiss that was mentioned earlier, that is not at all the idea. The idea is that they would use their firearms in defense of their nation and government, and it is s very cohesive and professional attitude. (And from what I understand this was the intent of giving the right to bear arms in the US.)

 

But many Americans seem to have a real fear that there government is out to get them and that having private fire-arms can help guard against this. People who have this view seem to be very caught up in it and very big on carrying guns around.

 

And then I think there is a real idea in among many Americans that having a gun is a good way to protect yourself against crime. I find this doesn't really exist here in Canada. I live in a home with an avid hunter and sport shooter, and back when I was in the army I enjoyed shooting too. But it would not occur to me that having a gun in my purse, car, or within easy reach of my bed (and loaded!) would be a way to prevent bad things from happening. It seems like a way for my kids or my kid's friends to have an accident, or for a mugging or robbery if such a thing were to happen to get out of control.

 

To me this seems like a matter of distorted risk assesment, and I guess I think that sort of thing seems common in the US in general - people will drive their kids to a store and then not let them go in alone, despite the driving being a much greater risk than the store itself. I think a gun in my purse is a bigger risk than getting mugged or raped, even in a dangerous spot, not a good way to avoid those risks.

 

And I know when I hear about people killing or shooting a trespasser or even a thief, I am kind of :blink::001_unsure:. The idea that I would kill someone for stealing or destroying my property is horrible to me, and I think most people here would feel the same way. But it seems to make sense to some Americans. Which makes me think it has to do with how they value property, property rights, and life.

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In the first case the boys were 12 and home alone. In the second they were 13. In the first the gun was loaded and unlocked in a sock drawer. In the second case the boys were playing around with a shot gun in their bedroom while parents and other siblings were home.

 

If there were guns in the house, why on earth weren't boys that age taught how to respect them and handle them correctly?! These weren't little kids. They were old enough to know better! I get very, very angry at parents that allow guns in the house, but neglect to teach their kids about them. That is like setting them up for a disaster. If you don't like the thought of your kids ever handling guns, then they shouldn't be in your house. If you are ok with them being in your house, than your kids had better learn better gun safety.

 

I'm using the word you generically there. Please don't take all that personally.

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And I know when I hear about people killing or shooting a trespasser or even a thief, I am kind of :blink::001_unsure:. The idea that I would kill someone for stealing or destroying my property is horrible to me, and I think most people here would feel the same way. But it seems to make sense to some Americans. Which makes me think it has to do with how they value property, property rights, and life.

 

I think the logic behind wanting to be able to shoot an intruder is not about possessions. It's about protecting the humans in the house from rape, assault, and murder. It may be true that these occurances are rare, but they do happen and some people believe they aren't doing their duty if they allow even a small risk.

 

It is very possible to have a gun in the house that is not a danger to children. Most gun owners know enough about gun safety to prevent accidents, and it's on the owners to be careful. Lots of bad stuff happens to kids whose parents are irresponsible. We don't ban bathtubs because some parents let their kids drown in them. We have yet to ban cars because sometimes kids get in them and (a) crash them or (b) lock themselves in on a hot day. It happens, it's horrible, it's preventable.

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I think the logic behind wanting to be able to shoot an intruder is not about possessions. It's about protecting the humans in the house from rape, assault, and murder. It may be true that these occurances are rare, but they do happen and some people believe they aren't doing their duty if they allow even a small risk.

 

I was thinking specifically of people who believe it is their right to defend their property with a gun. That attitude exists and I think that is one of the things non-Americans find really hard to comprehend and somewhat icky.

 

It is very possible to have a gun in the house that is not a danger to children. Most gun owners know enough about gun safety to prevent accidents, and it's on the owners to be careful. Lots of bad stuff happens to kids whose parents are irresponsible. We don't ban bathtubs because some parents let their kids drown in them. We have yet to ban cars because sometimes kids get in them and (a) crash them or (b) lock themselves in on a hot day. It happens, it's horrible, it's preventable.

 

I know it is possible to have a gun without being unsafe - as I said, my dh hunts and shoots competitively, and I don't worry about the kids.

 

The law here says long-guns need to be locked up when not in use with ammunition locked up seperatly. Hand guns require a special permit, must have a trigger-lock, and can't be transported without special paperwork saying where and when. You can get a permanent arrangement to take one to a range or gun-club, but you have to have the paperwork.

 

But if you are doing those things, you are not going to be able to use a gun to defend yourself from a burglar or mugger. To do that you need easy access in a purse, near your bed, or in the car. I don't consider that to be safe from kids in most cases.

 

I also think bringing a firearm into a situation with a burglar or whatever is likely to make the situation more risky, not less, and it won't help in a crowd or gang-related shooting.

 

I think that these are pretty common views outside of the US and so people wonder why Americans feel differently.

 

I have spoken to many Americans who keep a loaded weapon in their glove compartment. If I had done that in the army outside of a war zone, I'd have been charged. I don't think that the US is a war zone.

 

Actually, reading through this thread, I am wondering if people have a very heightened sense of risk in the US - if so I would tend to blame it on tv news - I don't think the crime rate is actually worse today than in the past - violent crime in general is actually down in most places as far as I know.

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In the first case the boys were 12 and home alone. In the second they were 13. In the first the gun was loaded and unlocked in a sock drawer. In the second case the boys were playing around with a shot gun in their bedroom while parents and other siblings were home.

 

Sorry, but those are nothing like the situations you initially described. Those are not little kids and the gun was not left on the kitchen table loaded and tempting. I hate to sound cruel, but kids who are determined to dangerous things will do them and get themselves hurt and/or killed. That's reality. The absence of guns wouldn't change that. It would only make the details different.

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I was thinking specifically of people who believe it is their right to defend their property with a gun. That attitude exists and I think that is one of the things non-Americans find really hard to comprehend and somewhat icky.

 

That's OK. Many of us find it just has hard to comprehend and icky those who would not defend themselves. It's honestly a mindset I can't even fathom.

 

Besides that, when someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night, I can't even imagine how you are supposed to determine whether they are there for your DVD player or your daughter. I certainly wouldn't be holding a Q & A over it, either. Shoot him first, drag his sorry self off my rug second (blood stains are a pain), let him contemplate the question of the level he wanted to take his violation to while the police arrive (I guess they'll bring an ambulance).

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That's OK. Many of us find it just has hard to comprehend and icky those who would not defend themselves. It's honestly a mindset I can't even fathom.

 

 

I remember when Madonna bought an estate in the UK, she was horrified to discover that the public (including the press) had right of access to much of it. Britain is criss-crossed with ancient paths, so it's quite normal to have strangers walking across your land. In Scotland and in some other areas, you can walk anywhere (outside small gardens) so long as you don't cause damage.

 

Obviously houses are different, but I'm wondering whether this feeds into the concept of privacy and property.

 

Laura

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That's OK. Many of us find it just has hard to comprehend and icky those who would not defend themselves. It's honestly a mindset I can't even fathom.

 

Besides that, when someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night, I can't even imagine how you are supposed to determine whether they are there for your DVD player or your daughter. I certainly wouldn't be holding a Q & A over it, either. Shoot him first, drag his sorry self off my rug second (blood stains are a pain), let him contemplate the question of the level he wanted to take his violation to while the police arrive (I guess they'll bring an ambulance).

 

I think I specifically said that I was speaking about the idea that it is ok to defend property, not oneself or other people. So I don't see how your first comment relates, unless you are actually equating property with people.

 

There are people who think it is ok to, say, shoot trespassers, or thieves, who are showing no violent intent, because they have a right to defend their property.

 

That is, their private property is so important that it is worth shooting someone over.

 

As for your second comment, there are some cases when it isn't clear if a person has the intent to harm anyone. There are some when it is pretty clear one way or the other. Many professional theives don't carry firearms or any weapons for just that reason - they are there to steal, not murder or get murdered. If an intruder is discovered and tries to escape, that's a good clue they aren't keen on murdering you.

 

The idea of shooting someone on spec seems a bad one to me. I have a cousin that accidentally walked into the wrong house in a neighbourhood he was visiting in and made a sandwich. He scared the beans out of the home-owner, who also frightened him. It turned out ok, no one shot anyone.

 

Someone in your house doesn't mean you are in immanent danger of being assaulted or murdered.

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I remember when Madonna bought an estate in the UK, she was horrified to discover that the public (including the press) had right of access to much of it. Britain is criss-crossed with ancient paths, so it's quite normal to have strangers walking across your land. In Scotland and in some other areas, you can walk anywhere (outside small gardens) so long as you don't cause damage.

 

Obviously houses are different, but I'm wondering whether this feeds into the concept of privacy and property.

 

Laura

 

Well, that's a case of she was stupid for not investigating all of the entailments to the property before she bought it.

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I think I specifically said that I was speaking about the idea that it is ok to defend property, not oneself or other people. So I don't see how your first comment relates, unless you are actually equating property with people.

 

There are people who think it is ok to, say, shoot trespassers, or thieves, who are showing no violent intent, because they have a right to defend their property.

 

That is, their private property is so important that it is worth shooting someone over.

 

As for your second comment, there are some cases when it isn't clear if a person has the intent to harm anyone. There are some when it is pretty clear one way or the other. Many professional theives don't carry firearms or any weapons for just that reason - they are there to steal, not murder or get murdered. If an intruder is discovered and tries to escape, that's a good clue they aren't keen on murdering you.

 

The idea of shooting someone on spec seems a bad one to me. I have a cousin that accidentally walked into the wrong house in a neighbourhood he was visiting in and made a sandwich. He scared the beans out of the home-owner, who also frightened him. It turned out ok, no one shot anyone.

 

Someone in your house doesn't mean you are in immanent danger of being assaulted or murdered.

 

But how are you supposed to know if you are in danger or not? I would say that he's already demonstrated that he cares nothing for your rights, so I would see no reason to suppose that he cares for some and not others, and I wouldn't risk trying to find out. That just seems wildly foolish to me.

 

As for your cousin, there will always be stupid people in the world getting themselves into situations and those situations will sometimes get them killed, even when there aren't guns involved.

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But how are you supposed to know if you are in danger or not? I would say that he's already demonstrated that he cares nothing for your rights, so I would see no reason to suppose that he cares for some and not others, and I wouldn't risk trying to find out. That just seems wildly foolish to me.

 

As for your cousin, there will always be stupid people in the world getting themselves into situations and those situations will sometimes get them killed, even when there aren't guns involved.

 

Yeah. ok.

 

Well, this seems to rather answer the OPs question.

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Well, that's a case of she was stupid for not investigating all of the entailments to the property before she bought it.

 

What she didn't realise was that the 'open country' would also be accessible.

 

However, I just brought that up as an example or a different attitude to real estate. For that matter, I own three acres, two of which would probably be open to public access.

 

Laura

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What she didn't realise was that the 'open country' would also be accessible.

 

That's what property attorneys are for, to find these things out for you. Why someone with all of her money wouldn't have all that sorted is beyond me. But, I don't think anyone would accuse Madonna of being a brain trust.

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Here are my 2 cents...

 

I think if you have guns in your home, you should feel obligated to teach your children gun safety. I grew up in a hunting community and never heard about accidental shootings because every child learned from a very early age not to touch guns and then eventually how to shoot them. This was also a farming community. In addition to hunting, guns were used for the defense of the livestock, maintaining wildlife populations and to put down sick animals as mercifully and quickly as possible.

 

I once read an article from someone who didn't own any guns. They would defend the right of anyone in the US to own guns because once the government can take away one aspect of the bill of rights, it becomes easier for them to take away all the freedoms of the bill of rights. Much like people of one religion or no religion honoring the rights of others to believe as they would like.

 

Why the people of this country fear our government, I'm not sure. Maybe it is because we are such a young country and much of our patriotism comes from defending democracy. In this country, it is almost instinct for a young kid to pick up a stick or other toy and say "bang" and pretend it's a gun. Is it like that in other countries? So much of our heritage and culture is tied up in fighting wars and the Wild West.

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Just wanted to chime in here and say that the most I ever hope to do with our gun is scare someone with it. :).

Here's my basic thought process: if someone is lurking outside, I call the police, let the dog out of her crate :D , get the gun and try to keep an eye on where they are, staying between them and my kids at all times. Should someone actually get in, I would do the same (depending on time factor, the dog may not get let out lol). I would only point it at them to get them to leave us alone. Hopefully the cops would arrive quickly. none of these things have ever happened, and I highly doubt anything ever will - I pray that is the case!

I don't give a carp if they take possessions. I want our family to be safe.

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I mentioned the table thing because when it was talked about on the news they said there are no laws preventing someone from leaving a loaded gun on their kitchen table.

 

For a 12 year old, I hardly think leaving a loaded unlocked gun in a drawer is being safe. If parents think their kids won't find stuff or won't touch stuff they are in denial.

 

They were just being curious kids. Had the gun been secured, unloaded, had a child safety lock, anything it might not have happened. There was no malicious intent on the part of the kids. They were looking at the gun and not knowing how guns work it went off. They hardly went out of their way to use it...KWIM? The parent of the child shot dead said he wasn't against people's rights to have guns, but he think it's his right to be told his child will be left alone in a home with an unsecured gun.

 

Many states allow kids as young as ten to hunt game like deer. By 12 you are old enough to take hunter safety, a course run by the DNR, which includes range time.

It's tragic, but the gun didn't go off just from them looking at it. I'd say handling a gun without knowing how it works is going out of your way to use it. This is why it is so important to either teach kids how to safely handle a firearm or to tell your kids to keep their hands off. Even if you don't own guns you don't know when they will find one. I am MORE comfortable with someone who is upfront that they own firearms, but that they are all locked in safes. Ultimately, it's a parent's responsibility to discuss what to do if you or a friend finds a gun, just like you should discuss what to do if someone offers you drugs or you see anything dangerous. I wish these accidents wouldn't happen. :(

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I mentioned the table thing because when it was talked about on the news they said there are no laws preventing someone from leaving a loaded gun on their kitchen table.

 

For a 12 year old, I hardly think leaving a loaded unlocked gun in a drawer is being safe. If parents think their kids won't find stuff or won't touch stuff they are in denial.

 

They were just being curious kids. Had the gun been secured, unloaded, had a child safety lock, anything it might not have happened. There was no malicious intent on the part of the kids. They were looking at the gun and not knowing how guns work it went off. They hardly went out of their way to use it...KWIM? The parent of the child shot dead said he wasn't against people's rights to have guns, but he think it's his right to be told his child will be left alone in a home with an unsecured gun.

 

A 12-year-old whose parents had a gun in the house should have been taught enough that he would know better. Parent fail.

 

Where are the statistics on all the kids whose parents have guns in the home and DO protect and properly train their kids?

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Here are my 2 cents...

 

I think if you have guns in your home, you should feel obligated to teach your children gun safety. I grew up in a hunting community and never heard about accidental shootings because every child learned from a very early age not to touch guns and then eventually how to shoot them. This was also a farming community. In addition to hunting, guns were used for the defense of the livestock, maintaining wildlife populations and to put down sick animals as mercifully and quickly as possible.

 

I once read an article from someone who didn't own any guns. They would defend the right of anyone in the US to own guns because once the government can take away one aspect of the bill of rights, it becomes easier for them to take away all the freedoms of the bill of rights. Much like people of one religion or no religion honoring the rights of others to believe as they would like.

 

Why the people of this country fear our government, I'm not sure. Maybe it is because we are such a young country and much of our patriotism comes from defending democracy. In this country, it is almost instinct for a young kid to pick up a stick or other toy and say "bang" and pretend it's a gun. Is it like that in other countries? So much of our heritage and culture is tied up in fighting wars and the Wild West.

:iagree: with all of this. I grew up with guns in the house. Twice a year they came out for cleaning, instruction in use, a LONG lecture on gun safety, when to and not to use a gun, and finally a few rounds off in the back yard (btw, this was IN town and at a can backed by a tree...never had a cop come by, never had a neighbour upset with it).

 

I know plenty of people that do not have guns in their homes, but will support the right to bear arms. And I agree that there is that fierce American independency ingrained in us.

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If there were guns in the house, why on earth weren't boys that age taught how to respect them and handle them correctly?! These weren't little kids. They were old enough to know better! I get very, very angry at parents that allow guns in the house, but neglect to teach their kids about them. That is like setting them up for a disaster. If you don't like the thought of your kids ever handling guns, then they shouldn't be in your house. If you are ok with them being in your house, than your kids had better learn better gun safety.

 

I'm using the word you generically there. Please don't take all that personally.

 

This part I agree with. But I literally get barfy in my throat at the mere thought of DS holding a gun.

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We don't have guns to protect our property. Most burglaries happen when houses are empty or perceived as empty. Someone who is looking for an easy target is not going to break into a house with cars in the driveway and lights on upstairs. Most criminals are at least smart enough to not want to risk their lives over a TV or an iPad.

 

Someone kicking in your door at dinnertime or coming in through your child's window in the middle of the night is not there to rifle through your jewelry box. If someone comes into my home when it's obvious that we're here (and it's always obvious that we're here when we have four kids about), the most logical assumption is that we are the target, not our property. Now, the person could be high as a kite and not thinking logically, but that's not exactly reassuring, is it?

 

I'll echo a poster upthread: if someone invades my home, my only regret will be having to clean up afterwards.

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This part I agree with. But I literally get barfy in my throat at the mere thought of DS holding a gun.

 

Would it make a different if it were a BB gun or pellet gun? Truly asking. Most kids that I know that were taught gun safety start on one of those as a safer option.

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Just wanted to chime in here and say that the most I ever hope to do with our gun is scare someone with it. :).

Here's my basic thought process: if someone is lurking outside, I call the police, let the dog out of her crate :D , get the gun and try to keep an eye on where they are, staying between them and my kids at all times. Should someone actually get in, I would do the same (depending on time factor, the dog may not get let out lol). I would only point it at them to get them to leave us alone. Hopefully the cops would arrive quickly. none of these things have ever happened, and I highly doubt anything ever will - I pray that is the case!

I don't give a carp if they take possessions. I want our family to be safe.

 

Well, there is a school of thought which says that if you don't really intend to shoot (if the situation goes that way) you should not have the gun in your hand at all. It will only make a very dangerous situation because it can escalate things, or the person can get the gun away from you and use it. Yes, it might scare the person, but the dog is probably as effective - but a really scared person can be unpredictable.

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Well, there is a school of thought which says that if you don't really intend to shoot (if the situation goes that way) you should not have the gun in your hand at all. It will only make a very dangerous situation because it can escalate things, or the person can get the gun away from you and use it. Yes, it might scare the person, but the dog is probably as effective - but a really scared person can be unpredictable.

 

Robbers sometimes shoot dogs. If they think you have a gun, they are less likely to do something like that.

 

FWIW, my sister has a gun partly for self-protection (she lives alone in a rural area) and partly so she can shoot any critters that might bother her dogs. She breeds German Shepherds, so her dogs' safety is important on several levels.

 

Maybe an international difference I'm picking up is that foreign robbers are so much more peaceful than American ones? I believe that if anyone busts into a house without being 100% sure that nobody's home, he's ready and willing to hurt the people he may encounter in there. Maybe Canadian robbers are more polite and friendly, I don't know. But US law is pretty clear, and criminals know it. We are allowed to shoot someone who busts into our homes. Period. If you know that and you bust in anyway, then I'm sorry, but I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

That said, I've never been robbed, nor have my parents, nor any of my family. Some have been burgled, but never when the people were home. The only people I personally know who have been robbed were accosted on the street by a criminal with a gun (and my friends were unarmed). However, I would believe that there are some neighborhoods where robberies are not very uncommon.

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Robbers sometimes shoot dogs. If they think you have a gun, they are less likely to do something like that.

 

FWIW, my sister has a gun partly for self-protection (she lives alone in a rural area) and partly so she can shoot any critters that might bother her dogs. She breeds German Shepherds, so her dogs' safety is important on several levels.

 

Maybe an international difference I'm picking up is that foreign robbers are so much more peaceful than American ones? I believe that if anyone busts into a house without being 100% sure that nobody's home, he's ready and willing to hurt the people he may encounter in there. Maybe Canadian robbers are more polite and friendly, I don't know. But US law is pretty clear, and criminals know it. We are allowed to shoot someone who busts into our homes. Period. If you know that and you bust in anyway, then I'm sorry, but I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

That said, I've never been robbed, nor have my parents, nor any of my family. Some have been burgled, but never when the people were home. The only people I personally know who have been robbed were accosted on the street by a criminal with a gun (and my friends were unarmed). However, I would believe that there are some neighborhoods where robberies are not very uncommon.

 

 

It would be very unusual, almost even unheard of, for a robber to shoot someone in a home.

 

Professional robbers don't generally carry weapons. It's just considered dangerous - they will either get a homeowner who tries to escalete things, and if they get caught they will be in for much more serious legal trouble. In general they do try to avoid meeting people, but that doesn't always work out. Sometimes they make an error, or there are some that deliberately break into a different part of the house while people are home - say a basement or the upstairs at dinner time. Apparently that is quite a successful tactic, there is no alarm and people are distracted.

 

A lot won't bother to go into a house with a dog at all.

 

The more dangerous type of person would be teens or those on drugs, because those people aren't really thinking clearly. There were a couple of teens who beat up an elderly man in his home in my city recently to steal his car. I would say that or knives seem to be most common in that kind of scenario, but even then they usually just run off rather than try anything.

 

I'd say it probably is a difference, because if you are a robber and you know the home-owner might pop you off without a word, you might try to get your shot in first.

 

I do think the idea that someone willing to steal your stuff is also willing to kill you or hurt you isn't necessarily true. A lot of people seem to have a distinction between the two, for whatever reason.

 

My street has had quite a few break-ins over the last few years, and there are a few reasons for that unique to my area. My next door neighbour woke up to find a guy rooting through her stuff. He shone his flash-light on her and told her to stay put and went back to going through his stuff. :glare: No one has ever been hurt in these incidents though.

 

In any case, I agree that having a gun to scare someone might work. THe question is whether the risks it brings to the situation are in proportion to that. I think any professional I know who uses a gun would say, don't have it unless you will really use it.

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It would be very unusual, almost even unheard of, for a robber to shoot someone in a home.

 

Professional robbers don't generally carry weapons. It's just considered dangerous - they will either get a homeowner who tries to escalete things, and if they get caught they will be in for much more serious legal trouble. In general they do try to avoid meeting people, but that doesn't always work out. Sometimes they make an error, or there are some that deliberately break into a different part of the house while people are home - say a basement or the upstairs at dinner time. Apparently that is quite a successful tactic, there is no alarm and people are distracted.

 

A lot won't bother to go into a house with a dog at all.

 

The more dangerous type of person would be teens or those on drugs, because those people aren't really thinking clearly. There were a couple of teens who beat up an elderly man in his home in my city recently to steal his car. I would say that or knives seem to be most common in that kind of scenario, but even then they usually just run off rather than try anything.

 

I'd say it probably is a difference, because if you are a robber and you know the home-owner might pop you off without a word, you might try to get your shot in first.

 

I do think the idea that someone willing to steal your stuff is also willing to kill you or hurt you isn't necessarily true. A lot of people seem to have a distinction between the two, for whatever reason.

 

My street has had quite a few break-ins over the last few years, and there are a few reasons for that unique to my area. My next door neighbour woke up to find a guy rooting through her stuff. He shone his flash-light on her and told her to stay put and went back to going through his stuff. :glare: No one has ever been hurt in these incidents though.

 

In any case, I agree that having a gun to scare someone might work. THe question is whether the risks it brings to the situation are in proportion to that. I think any professional I know who uses a gun would say, don't have it unless you will really use it.

 

Just for clarification, are the above comments specific to Canada?

 

I agree that some people who will steal would never want to physically harm a person. That's why burglars sneak in when nobody is home. Those who would knowingly risk confronting a homeowner are obviously less averse to altercations and willing to intimidate and possibly hurt a victim.

 

Maybe we should have robber sensitivity training down here so we could count on them to be more gentle. Hmm.

 

Not sure how you'd deal with the fact that some home invaders do intentionally rape, beat, and kill their victims. The way I deal with it is to not live in a neighborhood with significant crime. And I just hope for the best. But I don't fault others who safely keep a firearm just in case.

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Well, there is a school of thought which says that if you don't really intend to shoot (if the situation goes that way) you should not have the gun in your hand at all. It will only make a very dangerous situation because it can escalate things, or the person can get the gun away from you and use it. Yes, it might scare the person, but the dog is probably as effective - but a really scared person can be unpredictable.

 

True, true.

I know how to shoot the gun. I will shoot it if I need to, but I would hate to actually do it. (Aiming at a person, that is... I've shot the gun at other stuff for target practice and that doesn't bother me.)

I would prefer not to shoot at all, but I think it is a better alternative than having nothing whatsoever to defend the kids with. Well, aside from the wooden sword Link has, and the metal pole thingy that DH found awhile back (pre-gun) and brought in with just that in mind - self defense. :tongue_smilie:

Of course, I highly doubt I'll ever be in a situation to even need to aim it at someone. :)

As for the dog... Idk. I don't think my dog could effectively scare anyone. She's a labradoodle, so she is big, but she's about as friendly as can be. The only potentially menacing thing about her would be the bruises you can get if she wags her tail against your legs too hard. :D :lol:

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If anything, robbers in the UK are much more aggressive than those in the US. They are much more likely to enter an occupied house: about 10% versus about 50%. The National Post cited Canada's hot burglary rate at around 45%.

 

I'm Canadian, but I think that entering someone else's home against their will is itself a highly aggressive act.

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I mentioned the table thing because when it was talked about on the news they said there are no laws preventing someone from leaving a loaded gun on their kitchen table.

 

For a 12 year old, I hardly think leaving a loaded unlocked gun in a drawer is being safe. If parents think their kids won't find stuff or won't touch stuff they are in denial.

 

They were just being curious kids. Had the gun been secured, unloaded, had a child safety lock, anything it might not have happened. There was no malicious intent on the part of the kids. They were looking at the gun and not knowing how guns work it went off. They hardly went out of their way to use it...KWIM? The parent of the child shot dead said he wasn't against people's rights to have guns, but he think it's his right to be told his child will be left alone in a home with an unsecured gun.

 

this always stuns me. In florida you are held liable if a minor gets ahold of your gun. end of story. You sign something to that effect when you buy the gun, I think. But either way, the owner of the gun would certainly be liable. As it should be.

 

That said, not only do people need to use locks, but kids that age should know how to use a weapon if there is one in their house, or at least how NOT to use one. Our 13 year old has shot every gun we own, and knows how to hold them, all the safety rules, etc. (they are still in lock boxes though, one by the bed and one in the kitchen, and the long guns have trigger locks and the ammo for them is in a third safe, in the closet).

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Just wanted to chime in here and say that the most I ever hope to do with our gun is scare someone with it. :).

Here's my basic thought process: if someone is lurking outside, I call the police, let the dog out of her crate :D , get the gun and try to keep an eye on where they are, staying between them and my kids at all times. Should someone actually get in, I would do the same (depending on time factor, the dog may not get let out lol). I would only point it at them to get them to leave us alone. Hopefully the cops would arrive quickly. none of these things have ever happened, and I highly doubt anything ever will - I pray that is the case!

I don't give a carp if they take possessions. I want our family to be safe.

 

Same scenario here, except the dog isn't crated. I actually had my first "go to the gun safe" incident yesterday. My dh came home at a weird time, and for whatever reason started banging around by the garage before coming inside. The dogs were barking in a scared way, rather than a 'ooh. dad's home" way. I knew it was most likely m DH, but in the past six months there have been a few break ins with people I know, in the middle of the day, so I had to keep that in mind. I put the toddler on my hip, and unlocked my gun safe, and put my hand on the gun, just in case I needed it. Once I saw it was DH (through the window) I closed the safe. I never was in danger of shooting him, as i know you do NOT put your finger on the trigger until you know what you are shooting. But I felt a lot safer than times in the past when similar things happened and I didn't have a gun.

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Yeah, but what number of those are from someone they know verses a total stranger jumping out behind a bush or breaking into a house? KWIM? A lot of women it happens to aren't in a situation where they are prepared for the unexpected.

 

most are someone they know. And if the go on dates with a gun in their purse I think they are safer in that situation.

 

But, no, a gun doesn't mean you get to take dumb risks. you have to know how to handle yourself, and the gun, and how to have it where you can get to it, etc.

 

There have been a few times that dh has gone into a convenience store at night, and I've stayed in the car with the sleeping toddler. If I have a weird vibe, or it is darker than I like, or whatever, I have him leave his gun in the car with me, just in case. Not in the glove box, but right next to me. Then when he gets back I just give him back to him to holster.

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This part I agree with. But I literally get barfy in my throat at the mere thought of DS holding a gun.

 

And I've always thought it was a personal choice for people to not be ok with their kids handling guns, but then that would mean IMO that there shouldn't be any guns in the house. It's not safe.

My 8 year old has just started being allowed to handle the pellet gun under strict supervision and being walked through how to put it away properly and safely and the possible consequences if he doesn't. We start with the little stuff. We've practiced with toy guns for years.

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Yeah, but what number of those are from someone they know verses a total stranger jumping out behind a bush or breaking into a house? KWIM? A lot of women it happens to aren't in a situation where they are prepared for the unexpected.

 

My mom was attacked by a rapist at 8.5 mos pregnant while walking in a downtown parking lot around 6pm. She beat him off. When she reported it to the cops, they said he fit the description of a serial rapist they were looking for. Strangers do attack and rape women.

 

Ya know, I don't think too many people would have cried if my mom had had a gun with her and used it that day.

 

My mom's best friend was also raped by a stranger. Unfortunately, it isn't as rare as I wish it were.

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Yeah, but what number of those are from someone they know verses a total stranger jumping out behind a bush or breaking into a house? KWIM? A lot of women it happens to aren't in a situation where they are prepared for the unexpected.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm late to this thread, but I don't get the mindset that would make it mandatory for you to have a gun either. Maybe if I lived in a log cabin in grizzly country, I might consider it. I live urban. No one I know has a gun in their house. I do not think of myself as unsafe or vulnerable by any stretch. I'm going to have to go back and read this thread, because I've spent a bit of time overseas and I question it much like the OP.

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Another thing that worries me is that if someone is having a bad moment, day, week, month, or temporary (or ongoing) lack of mental stability a gun is just too easy. People can claim that won't happen to them, but I have a really hard time believing it. It might be because I grew up with parents who had mental illnesses. Mental instability was an ongoing problem (nothing btw would actually prevent them from obtaining a gun and that fact SHOULD scare people).

 

My brother owns a gun. When he was going through a rough patch and having scary thoughts, he had his wife drive the gun to my dad's house for safe keeping. Then he got some professional help.

 

Yes, occasionally a loon goes nuts and shoots people. I would support laws requiring gun background checks to take into account mental health history. But no, that would not be politically correct. :glare:

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Another thing that worries me is that if someone is having a bad moment, day, week, month, or temporary (or ongoing) lack of mental stability a gun is just too easy. People can claim that won't happen to them, but I have a really hard time believing it. It might be because I grew up with parents who had mental illnesses. Mental instability was an ongoing problem (nothing btw would actually prevent them from obtaining a gun and that fact SHOULD scare people).

 

That does scare me a little. There are some things that should automatically limit whether someone can own a gun.

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Just a couple of thoughts....

 

If the statistic is 1 in 4, as far as I know the right to bear arms has been around a very long time. Does this not indicate that perhaps bearing arms is not necessarily helping?

 

I must admit however that my view is biased. I'm Canadian. I grew up with my dad who owned guns for hunting (which were registered) but I would never choose to own one myself and don't feel a need to own one for protection.

 

Statistics Canada provides the following information:

US homicide rate (2000) 3 X higher than Canaada

US aggravated assault double Canada

US 65% higher robbery (41% using guns versus 16% in Canada)

Canada had 30% more vehicle theft, break-ins and arson

 

I believe that our penal systems are very similar so I don't think we have any greater deterent to violent crime than the US. I don't see that the right to bear arms is doing much to deter violent crime...you may not have your car stolen or your house broken into but I would much rather deal with that then the other possible violent crimes.

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