Share in my anguish

[Supertechmom]

UGHGHG It's been a year. My oldest, 9th grade, is still trying to finish up. I was extremely busy this year with my own necessary return to college and left him to do a lot on his own. (he was more than ready for it but apparently had a huge lack of time readiness/management bite him in the butt) And then *I* forgot to make sure the work was on my desk as asked. So I do accept full responsibility for running into the first of AUGUST finishing up school.

 

The biggest problem is when asked, it's always the last paper, finishing it up, almost done, just a minute. Then when I am standing there waiting for the paper to be put in my hand THEN we discover it is not done, not ready,and it's actually 3,4 ,5 papers still left. We are handling those issues and have a plan in place for this coming school year to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

But I don't know what to do about his grade for English. But English is his weakness, he did the first year of a great books study and had blast reading/discussing the books but hates the writing part. Probably why he can't get it done. He has learned his lesson. He knows he is sorely lacking in study skills/time management and has agreed to study with me to learn how and allow me to help him (something he was adamantly against last year) Paper quality wise they run A's, B's. Done on time through the year, he would have come out with a low A, high B . But I don't want to reward the slackness. I want to give him C. It is what he deserves for being late and not doing it when he was supposed to.

 

HOWEVER my dilemma is

 

1) he wants to go to very selective schools for engineering and I am afraid a c will hurt his GPA too much to be selective. Which I really feel like OH well TOUGH COOKIES but since I did play a part in that I didn't keep him on track better, I feel that may be too harsh.

 

2) IF he was in school around here, he would not have read such rigorous books making the papers much easier and combined with the fact that (And this is from a lit teacher here in the local school) he would have been given at least 3 rewrites per paper to bring his grades up and would have been given extra credit to offset any deductions for turning in late papers. IT is pretty darn impossible to get a grade lower than an A around here. And he would have written maybe at max 6 papers in the advance class.

 

In contrast, my kid did 12 original papers 2-4 pages each, 1 research paper and 12 historical narrative papers, no rewrites, no revisions (NO i didn't grade and allow him to rewrite until he made an A paper, I taught him to write an A paper in middle school and I expect him to do so)

 

So that's my anguish. I feel he should get a C. I feel that in comparison that would be unfair because he will be in competition against kids who had multiple opportunities to get good grades and he only had one shot. I feel that is real life and TOUGH COOKIES. I feel guilty that I didn't stay on track better and keep him from getting so far behind. But TOUGH COOKIES, he had a schedule he knew when what was due, TOUGH! Did I mention he's extremely bright and this is probably the very first year, he's ever had material that pushed him and stretched him and showed his brilliant mind that he needed to actually pick up a book and study? We used the Great books, college books for everything else, so it was a big learning year. BUT TOUGH COOKIES! ;):glare:

 

 

So WWYD? I made mistakes, he was hardheaded, we both learned and grew but it is going to chap my hide to put down A and bother me to no end to put down a C. and B seems like a cheap shot. Is pass/fail acceptable for English lit??:lol:

 

Shew, Thanks for reading that far. I feel better for letting it out though I still dont' know what grade to put down. UGHHGUGG

[goldberry]

Wow...I thought I was tough! ;)

 

It sounds like your son earned the grade even though he was late. Especially since you admit you played even a small role in the delay.

 

I vote for the A.

[regentrude]

I would not expect a 9th grader to adhere to a schedule without somebody supervising in a consistent manner. This is work ethic I would expect from a college student. A young high schooler needs more guidance.

Your son has done a huge amount of work. I would assign the grade solely based on mastery and quality of his output, not on meeting the deadline.

Apparently, he achieved the goal you set for mastery of English. So I'd grade the English, and help him to be better organized the next school year.

[EKS]

I wouldn't give him a C simply because he was slow with the papers. I would give him the grade he deserves for the actual work he did and, next year, structure your homeschool differently so that this doesn't happen again.

[Supertechmom]

I would not expect a 9th grader to adhere to a schedule without somebody supervising in a consistent manner. This is work ethic I would expect from a college student. A young high schooler needs more guidance.

Your son has done a huge amount of work. I would assign the grade solely based on mastery and quality of his output, not on meeting the deadline.

Apparently, he achieved the goal you set for mastery of English. So I'd grade the English, and help him to be better organized the next school year.

 

Okay!! I just didn't want to be that homeschooler that gives out the a's no matter the performance. Hubby thinks I am being way too easy on him.

 

What would be realistic time management skills for high schoolers? I think what threw me was he was ready for the challenge material wise and I just lumped in the time skills with it, not realizing they are separate abilities. We learned that this year.

 

This is the hardest part of homeschooling to me. knowing what the right expectations are for highschoolers.

[Supertechmom]

I wouldn't give him a C simply because he was slow with the papers. I would give him the grade he deserves for the actual work he did and, next year, structure your homeschool differently so that this doesn't happen again.

 

We've made changes! I just took him at his word one time too many that he was done or finished or about to be and then we were so far behind and you can do nothing but keep on going.

 

I wouldn't let him skip any work because I didn't want him to think he could procrastinate and get out of work but I also didn't want to be too easy either.

[Joani]

What do you mean by a B being a cheap shot?

 

I'd give him exactly what his grade turns out to be, disregarding lateness. If it's a low A, it's an A. If it's a high B, it's a B.

[AK_Mom4]

OK - so.... have you been marking his papers all along with "C"'s for being completed late? Or were you just not grading them?

 

If you've been marking his grade down all along for each late paper, then -yeah, give him the "C". He knew he had it coming and had the grade in his face each time to help him improve for the next paper.

 

But..... if you have NOT been giving him that regular feedback... not grading them and handing them back, I mean.... then it would certainly not be reasonable to expect him to have improved getting things in on time. In that case, give him the "A" he earned and give yourself the "C" for not holding his feet to the fire in the first place.

[AHASRADA]

We're in a similar situation; ds with zero time management skills, a busy frazzled mom who dropped the ball on holding him to a strict schedule. Two subjects will be done by 10/1, another 2 by 1/1, and the last 2 have been pushed to 7/1 of next year. :tongue_smilie:

 

The difference is that all of his courses are taken through distance learning schools. None of the 3 schools we are using are penalizing him for his lateness. 2 schools do charge extension fees for more time, and we as parents could make him work to pay for those extensions, but his grade is unaffected.

 

His academic consequence is that he won't have time to earn as many credits over his HS career as he would have if he had finished his courses on time, or he'll have to add another year. Both tough, natural consequences, but not grades.

 

And yes, I am already holding myself to a higher standard of guidance for his time management.

[Supertechmom]

OK - so.... have you been marking his papers all along with "C"'s for being completed late? Or were you just not grading them?

 

If you've been marking his grade down all along for each late paper, then -yeah, give him the "C". He knew he had it coming and had the grade in his face each time to help him improve for the next paper.

 

But..... if you have NOT been giving him that regular feedback... not grading them and handing them back, I mean.... then it would certainly not be reasonable to expect him to have improved getting things in on time. In that case, give him the "A" he earned and give yourself the "C" for not holding his feet to the fire in the first place.

 

Oh I get a c for sure for not staying on top of it. We set a great pattern the first semester and then it just fell apart the second one. I thought he was on track to do the work when he was supposed to and then found out too late he wasn't. He gave a great appearance of work being done.So we have done a lot of making up work the last 3months. I am making him do the work because that is what we had agreed to do at the beginning. But then I wasn't sure how to grade that. Hubby wants me to give him zeros on every one that he didn't do when he should have. I told him that was way too harsh and since we both went to the same highschool he said Tough Cookies!!:lol: (yea, we would never have dared been late and didn't have teachers remind us either. You got a sheet with the outline and due dates and that was that. Turn it in on time, do it right, or take the zero! See why I am confused on expectations? :001_huh:)

[Supertechmom]

We're in a similar situation; ds with zero time management skills, a busy frazzled mom who dropped the ball on holding him to a strict schedule. Two subjects will be done by 10/1, another 2 by 1/1, and the last 2 have been pushed to 7/1 of next year. :tongue_smilie:

 

The difference is that all of his courses are taken through distance learning schools. None of the 3 schools we are using are penalizing him for his lateness. 2 schools do charge extension fees for more time, and we as parents could make him work to pay for those extensions, but his grade is unaffected.

 

His academic consequence is that he won't have time to earn as many credits over his HS career as he would have if he had finished his courses on time, or he'll have to add another year. Both tough, natural consequences, but not grades.

 

And yes, I am already holding myself to a higher standard of guidance for his time management.

 

 

We can wallow in misery together then. :). I'm glad to know that they aren't affecting his grades. I wasn't sure what to do as I want to just bump him in the head for not following the way we did things last quarter. And myself for thinking he could handle less supervision. His consequences are that he obviously didn't get a summer which was filled with a ton of geeky work he wanted to do and didn't get his driver's permit because school is not finished. I don't get any break either becuase I have to close out his year and get everything ready for the next one which would have been done in May.

 

So yeah, we aren't going to let this happen again either. I just never realized time management was a separate issue from the ability to do the work. One would think they would go hand in hand.

[brandigirl]

Give it to him.

[TranquilMind]

 

 

In contrast, my kid did 12 original papers 2-4 pages each, 1 research paper and 12 historical narrative papers, no rewrites, no revisions (NO i didn't grade and allow him to rewrite until he made an A paper, I taught him to write an A paper in middle school and I expect him to do so)

 

:eek:

Give that kid an A and a hug!

 

I'm going to read this to my kid so he sees how hard other kids have to work! Maybe I won't get so much complaining!

[bugs]

Out of curiosity, did you have clear expectations (read - did you write these out?) on due dates? Did you say/write for instance, "late papers will result in a drop in letter grade"? I agree that you shouldn't be so harsh because of his immature organizational skills. If he earned an A for the work he completed, he earned an A.

 

So, next school year both of you work on organization/study skills.

 

BTW, if he were a Sr in high school or in college, I would agree with your husband.

[kiana]

Out of curiosity, did you have clear expectations (read - did you write these out?) on due dates? Did you say/write for instance, "late papers will result in a drop in letter grade"? I agree that you shouldn't be so harsh because of his immature organizational skills. If he earned an A for the work he completed, he earned an A.

 

So, next school year both of you work on organization/study skills.

 

BTW, if he were a Sr in high school or in college, I would agree with your husband.

 

Yes, this.

[Supertechmom]

Out of curiosity, did you have clear expectations (read - did you write these out?) on due dates? Did you say/write for instance, "late papers will result in a drop in letter grade"? I agree that you shouldn't be so harsh because of his immature organizational skills. If he earned an A for the work he completed, he earned an A.

 

So, next school year both of you work on organization/study skills.

 

BTW, if he were a Sr in high school or in college, I would agree with your husband.

 

 

I did but it went in one ear and out the other. He knew but just ....it all just fell apart that last quarter. No real reason beyond he wasn't ready to follow a syllabus without handholding and I thought he was and found out the opposite. Live and learn. When you don't think they can, they surpass what you thought and when you think they can, they fall all over themselves. It is hard to know the line of too hard and too easy. They don't put that in the manual!

[elfgivas]

:grouphug: i think being clear on the goal is good. being clear on how to get there is good.

 

in the end, my goal is that i am trying to raise healthy, happy adults who are a pleasure to be around, who are working as close to their potential as possible, are self-sustaining, and emotionally mature.

 

i would not want to be the one who placed a large rock in their path on purpose, and then wondered why they stumbled.

 

the zero grade for late work in school is often a means of maintaining some kind of control and leverage, not of teaching responsibility and time management skills. teachers really have very little power in getting children (and their parents) to comply with a schedule and assignments. this is one of them. because we are homeschooling our own children, we have many different ways of getting them to do what is necessary. so the argument about how it is done in public schools holds little weight.

 

our third child is now fourteen. grade 9 was a watershed year for the previous two, too. fwiw, i'm by no means a soft touch. oldest went to stanford, has a phd and is working as a professor. i'm also not set on telling them who to be. second oldest is an emt, because that's how she is called.

 

i vote for grace and working towards the goals. (yours and his). the problem appears to have been relational (not being honest about work being done, or not), and transitional (from being supervised to not being supervised, thereby requiring more internal motivation, and a different accountability structure).

 

he needs "A's" to get where he wants to go. the question is how to help him achieve that without causing him to fail. so i'd look for options that would achieve that goal. and i'd work on the relationship with him a lot.

 

options:

a) give him a c. (its an option, but i'd not do it, as i think it would be destructive rather than constructive)

b) he could retake the course this year. (again, i wouldn't do it. he did a ton of work and aside from timing appears to have done it quite well. if i did this to any of mine, the quality of their work would fall dramatically)

c) you could grade his work, not his timing

d) you could assign three of the latter papers to be rewritten, offering two rewrites with your very specific comments on the original, and then on the next two drafts. grade the final result, and that will be his year's grade. (this is what i would do if option c did not result in an "a". my goal is mastery because that is what it will take to get where he wants to go.)

e) you could sit down with him and generate ideas and come up with a plan to (i) deal with this current situation, and (ii) address the coming year.

 

go for grace.

 

:grouphug: ann

[Katy]

I would grade based on mastery at that age. Heck, even some of the most difficult college courses I took had no penalty for late papers, and that was in the 90's at a highly selective school.

 

If lateness bothers you that much, set a clear expectation in a syllabus at the beginning of class that papers are due on such and such dates, and lateness will result in ____ penalty, but that he can make up the grade with _____ extra credit.

 

There are almost no public schools that won't give a kid an incomplete grade rather than a lower grade, and won't let them finish and make it up with extra credit over extra time, especially with extenuating family health issues.

 

I wouldn't want to jeopardize chances at college admission.

 

However, I WOULD penalize the lying in a private manner that did not affect grades. It is fine to get behind and feel overwhelmed and need help, but it is NOT okay to lie or gloss over or mislead about it. Hiding things is one way that adults in minor trouble become adults in major trouble. Maybe restriction or less screen time (a day for every time it happened), or if I could come up with some community service opportunity that would teach him that lesson, I would find a way to do that instead.

[Supertechmom]

Thank you everyone for the advice. And thanks for that post Ann as that gave me a better idea of exactly what went wrong and how to fix it for this coming year.

 

.....

However, I WOULD penalize the lying in a private manner that did not affect grades. It is fine to get behind and feel overwhelmed and need help, but it is NOT okay to lie or gloss over or mislead about it. Hiding things is one way that adults in minor trouble become adults in major trouble. Maybe restriction or less screen time (a day for every time it happened), or if I could come up with some community service opportunity that would teach him that lesson, I would find a way to do that instead.

 

Thanks for putting to words what I was still trying to decipher. That is what is bothering me so much! Not so much that he was behind but every time either of us inquired about anything, we were misled. I am highly irritated at that. Then of course my schedule caused me to miss a lot of the go back behind him details because I was under the impression all was chugging along smoothly. So I wasn't as concerned about his school work and spent a lot of my time on the other kids' work. Hubby and I will discuss that point and see what needs to be done about that.

 

Thanks everyone!:001_smile:

[jhschool]

If he did A work, give him an A.

 

What does it matter if he took a little longer?

 

Clonlara (homeschooling accredited transcript helper) School does not care when you finish the work, as long as you finish the work. If you do the work right, you get the good grade.

 

I don't see why you would give him a C. It seems untruthful to give him a C. You would be telling universities that he did C level work.

Which is not true. So be truthful and give him an A. The whole point of homeschooling is you can work at your own pace, and still do well.

[katilac]

I wanted to address your dh's point: that you and he both went to a high school where the deadlines were distributed, and then no reminders given.

 

Is that actually true, though? The teachers may not have nagged or poked, but did they really give long-term assignments and never mention them again? If any aspect of the project is being taught in class, that's a reminder; if the teacher mentions a good source for research, that's a reminder.

 

Even if the teacher remained utterly mum, the situation itself came with built-in reminders; namely, you were in school every day with the expectation that you were working on your various projects, and you were surrounded by students who had those very same deadlines. You were bound to get informal reminders as time went along, as students asked each other how they were coming along or panicked about their lack of progress :D.

 

Just a reminder not to fall victim to the dreaded Back in My Day syndrome.

 

As far as the lying, I would address it, but I wouldn't punish it. He's had the natural consequence of having to do a truck load of work in a short amount of time, and there are so many factors at play here that I think everyone would be best served by discussions on exactly what to do the next time something like this occurs. He was overwhelmed, you were overwhelmed, everyone made some poor decisions, and I would just learn from it and move on.

[bobbeym]

The biggest problem is when asked, it's always the last paper, finishing it up, almost done, just a minute. Then when I am standing there waiting for the paper to be put in my hand THEN we discover it is not done, not ready,and it's actually 3,4 ,5 papers still left. We are handling those issues and have a plan in place for this coming school year to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

In contrast, my kid did 12 original papers 2-4 pages each, 1 research paper and 12 historical narrative papers, no rewrites, no revisions (NO i didn't grade and allow him to rewrite until he made an A paper, I taught him to write an A paper in middle school and I expect him to do so)

 

This could easily be my DS. We've had a major ongoing battle over his misleading us to think he's done more work (we're still trying to finish up Alg 1), then when the deadline has long passed finding out it wasn't even started. :banghead: Like you, a large part of that was due to myself having the expectation he could handle time management on his own without so much guidance.

 

IMO, your DS did a lot of work for a 9th grade year and if they are A papers, give him the A. That's what we ended up doing.

 

However, I have made it very clear to him that we will be focusing on time management this year (his 9th grade). All of his syllabi state "NO LATER WORK WILL BE ACCEPTED" only because I want him to have that expectation that a deadline is not negotiable and he needs to step it up and keep on task. (Of course, if he's truly being a diligent worker and needs more time, I'll give it to him.)

 

This year, I wrote out weekly lessons, indicating when quizzes, tests, and papers were due for his core classes. (His electives are all self-paced, but I'll work with him to set realistic goals for each week.) Each Sunday evening we'll review the week's assignments and plan out how he's going to manage each day. As he fills in his own planner, he'll write down how long he thinks it will take to finish each task. When he's done with the task, he'll have to write down how long it actually took. (He'll be using the timer a lot this year. :D)

 

That allows us to check each evening what was done and hopefully will help him start to learn better time management skills. I haven't told him yet, but as an extra incentive to keeping on task, he'll get $1 each day everything he planned to do is completed. He always wants me to give him coffee money for his weekend youth group and I figured this gives him an easy way to earn it instead.

[angela in ohio]

I would not expect a 9th grader to adhere to a schedule without somebody supervising in a consistent manner. This is work ethic I would expect from a college student. A young high schooler needs more guidance.

Your son has done a huge amount of work. I would assign the grade solely based on mastery and quality of his output, not on meeting the deadline.

Apparently, he achieved the goal you set for mastery of English. So I'd grade the English, and help him to be better organized the next school year.

 

I agree 100%.

 

[Don't forget, though, that if he is applying to selective engineering schools, he is also going to be competing with students who aren't in the local schools you consider. He will be competing with students who go to rigorous schools where they must earn their grades. So I wouldn't make that a factor in my decision.]