LisaKinVA Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) This references a thread I posted earlier here Anyhow, after my dd and I talked, apparently a small cadre of girls in this group talked with my dd (dd was pretty upset). Anyhow, one of the girls "shouted out" in the bathroom that Girl X's mom "cheated" to make Girl X "win" and beat dd... this was heard by another mom, a coach, and several other girls. :scared: Girl "x" and her mom had already left...and now I am counting the days until Saturday. Trying to get up the nerve to email the head coach...ugh. This is a summer-swim program (not year-round), it's supposed to be for fun. :tongue_smilie: UPDATE in #18!! Edited August 4, 2012 by LisaK in VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unicorn. Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I would email the head coach. I doubt he/she would want the team to be known for cheating in any way. Hugs to your dd. That really stinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 This references a thread I posted earlier here Anyhow, after my dd and I talked, apparently a small cadre of girls in this group talked with my dd (dd was pretty upset). Anyhow, one of the girls "shouted out" in the bathroom that Girl X's mom "cheated" to make Girl X "win" and beat dd... this was heard by another mom, a coach, and several other girls. :scared: Girl "x" and her mom had already left...and now I am counting the days until Saturday. Trying to get up the nerve to email the head coach...ugh. This is a summer-swim program (not year-round), it's supposed to be for fun. :tongue_smilie: Yikes! I hope it all gets straightened out soon, especially for the girls' sakes. A coach may need to do a sitdown with all of them and clear the air. I would email or phone the coach and give them the whole story as you know it so that he/she can be prepared to deal with it. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 I just e-mailed the coach... we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 How much do you volunteer. Is this something where you have chosen to fulfill your minimum parent hours. This is fine-- I only devote extra time to one thing, everythingelse I just fulfill requirements--I might do a little more if I happen to be standing there when something in going down, but otherwise I keep my involvement in most activities minimal except for one. That's what I can handle. This is not a judgment on whether or not you are deserving fair treatment because of time put in. However, it can be tricky in how it will affect how you are percieved if you speak to anyone about this. I realize in a perfect world parent volunteer hours should not be an issue in a kids' activity, but I have also experienced some really cliquish behavior among parent volunteers. How is your league organized? I used to manage a summer team. Most parents would not know, but the managers were not the coaches supervisors employment wise--the board was. So, it's tricky who you talk to. This is the kind of situation that would blow up in my face if I tried help my dd get what she deserved. I'm terrible with social interaction. So, the most I would do is focus on the "appearance of impropriety" issue and suggest next year each child's lap counting has to be done by an adult who is not the child's parent. I am assuming that there is more than one parent volunteer counting. The stroke and turn judge issue is harder to get around. If you want to be a stroke and turn judge or referee go get the required training. In my league every team had to supply X number of offcials for each meet. It was always a big deal recruiting parents to be trained for this. There was no easy way to keep an official who is assigned a specific meet from officiating during his/her child's event. That would be a logistical mess. This is summer league not club. So, just recruiting enough parents to be trained in officiating is hard. The cost of participating in club is significantly higher and the posted results go into a national database. You are talking about summer where the program ends and no results mean anything besides what's printed in the local manual and record book. But the summer league still tries to run meets properly and have properly trained officials and making sure that happens is harder when it's not club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Anyhow, one of the girls "shouted out" in the bathroom that Girl X's mom "cheated" to make Girl X "win" and beat dd... Seems like the problem is with the set-up. No one should be in the position of judging their own children in a sport or other event. Not because they would necessarily cheat, but because it puts them in the position that you have here...having to defend themselves against the accusations of children. It's not fair to anyone, including the judge/ref. If I were the coach, I would state that we are NOT going to revisit the decision, that all judge/ref decisions are final. Then I would make a policy change to make sure no parent is ever put in that position again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Just to clarify...the event was a swimathon-type event (swim as many laps as you can in one hour). I was out of town, they needed help counting the laps, I'm pretty sure no one thought about any impropriety. The "prize" is bragging rights, and a little award at the end of the year. This was my main reason for wanting to let it go. Without proof (as in I was there, or dh/another adult was there *also* counting laps and saw dd lap Girl X repeatedly, I will advise to let something like this go... we can't prove anything, and while I *do* believe my dd, I can't PROVE to outside people she did something). My suspicions regarding the other thing with this mom are only suspicions. I have only shared those with my husband, and no one else. My concern now, is that we have a group of 9-10yo girls talking/yelling about how a mother "cheated," and I'm praying it doesn't escalate..., that we can shut this down, but I'm afraid it may blow-up anyhow. My dd will look like she has a case of sour grapes...the girls will get catty, pick sides...and this will turn into something very ugly heading into finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 For fun or not, kids know what's fair and what isn't. It sounds like they're policing their own. The mom should have known that would happen. Her DD is going to get the brunt of it, and it's the mom's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Seems like the problem is with the set-up. No one should be in the position of judging their own children in a sport or other event. Not because they would necessarily cheat, but because it puts them in the position that you have here...having to defend themselves against the accusations of children. It's not fair to anyone, including the judge/ref. If I were the coach, I would state that we are NOT going to revisit the decision, that all judge/ref decisions are final. Then I would make a policy change to make sure no parent is ever put in that position again. This is common practice in swimming. It would be too expensive to hire independent stroke judges and two timers for every lane, for every event, in every meet. Every event has 3 volunteers per lane. Those are parents, friends and sometimes even other swimmers. Swimming is already a crazy expensive sport, I can't imagine teams having to foot the bill for independents judges ontop of those fees. Until you get to the higher level events there is no way to avoid using volunteers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besroma Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I hope things don't get too crazy. I am sorry for your daughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 The coach replied, asking how many laps dd did, vs. Girl X...this is what makes it dicey...because the difference is significant. Based upon the official count, dd did 52 laps (104 lengths), and Girl X did 53 laps (106 lengths). DD knows she lapped Girl X at least 4 times, which would mean 56/57 laps to 53 laps (112 lengths, if you start from the official 52, and 114 lengths if you start them "even.") This is a HUGE difference, I can see being off a lap, but 4? That's a lot of laps to miss... I really don't want to bring this up the chain of command, and I feel like I should email or call the mom to apologize for what was said at the pool. DD was doing okay after we spoke, but when Girl X said that "maybe" my dd "could try to beat her next year..." it triggered a very intense response with someone who already felt "cheated." IYKWIM. I still don't think what the girls wound up "doing" was good, though...it's a pretty hefty accusation for 9-10yo girls to make against an adult... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Please don't apoligize to cheater mom. I'm begging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Ninja Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 There is probably no way to know what really happened at the swim a thon. In the future you can try to be around. Your presence may diffuse any attempts at cheating should they arise. I have had to deal with cheating parents at swim team. It's not fun but they were always discovered once people and the coach started watching. One dad who was responsible for entering the times and dqs into the computer at meets refused to enter his dds dqs because he said they were wrong. Uh, no. Judge de isions are final unless appealed properly. We all saw what she did and even she got out of the pool and announced that she was going to be Dqed for what she just did. The dad and mom denied that she had changed her stroke during the event and announced it was a bad call that needed to be ignored. No, wrong again. Yes she would have broken a team record that my dd set several years earlier and her parents wanted her to break records, but they need to be broken fairly. You can't swim a lap of free during the fly event and not expect to be disqualified. These parents tried to cheat in other ways too. He made a lot of "mistakes" when entering times that resulted in his daughters winning events even though we all knew who placed and we had the times recorded. Sigh. I did a lot of double checking and reentering of data that year before the coach relieved him of computer entry duty. They were only on the team for two years before changing teams. Everyone was on to them so they couldn't cheat anymore. It's hard. I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Until you get to the higher level events there is no way to avoid using volunteers. I see. Isn't there some way to get creative with the volunteers? Or have multiples so that they confirm each other, or something? If not, then I guess the kids are just going to have to be told that these people are volunteers and they might make mistakes sometimes and the kids will just have to deal with that reality. Of course, if someone exhibits a pattern of mistakes, I would look into it, but I am inclined to give adults the benefit of the doubt over children and to consider cheating so serious that I think you should be pretty darn sure before accusing an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Seems like the problem is with the set-up. No one should be in the position of judging their own children in a sport or other event. Not because they would necessarily cheat, but because it puts them in the position that you have here...having to defend themselves against the accusations of children. It's not fair to anyone, including the judge/ref. If I were the coach, I would state that we are NOT going to revisit the decision, that all judge/ref decisions are final. Then I would make a policy change to make sure no parent is ever put in that position again. :iagree: It just keeps the situation above reproach. I have always excused myself when asked to referee an event in which a child of mine is a contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) I see. Isn't there some way to get creative with the volunteers? Or have multiples so that they confirm each other, or something? If not, then I guess the kids are just going to have to be told that these people are volunteers and they might make mistakes sometimes and the kids will just have to deal with that reality. Of course, if someone exhibits a pattern of mistakes, I would look into it, but I am inclined to give adults the benefit of the doubt over children and to consider cheating so serious that I think you should be pretty darn sure before accusing an adult. Parents are usually honest. You find a lousy one in the bunch every once in a while, but for the most part, the volunteers are great. Parents aren't usually in the position to judge, time or count for their own kids but it happens on occasion, especially in something like a swim-a-thon. With so many people watching every event, you would think that people wouldn't do such a thing as blatantly lie, but it can happen. Some people are also just a bit 'sloppy'. Then, just like in this situation, if no one says anything, it just keeps occurring over and over until someone is willing to stand up and voice their concerns. For timing, there are always 2 timers or a wall timer backed up with a person doing it manually. For Stroke judges, there is just one for each lane as there really isn't a lot of room on the deck of each pool for them to pace with the swimmers. That would be 12 judges pacing, to have a double check for each of 6 lanes. Just like in any sport, referees can't catch every slight on the field. Edited August 5, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 For fun or not, kids know what's fair and what isn't. It sounds like they're policing their own. The mom should have known that would happen. Her DD is going to get the brunt of it, and it's the mom's fault. :iagree:Good for those girls for calling it like it was, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 The coach pulled me aside today to tell me he had taken care of it. He is crediting Kathryn with 116 lengths (58 laps). He said he has watched her in practice (along with Girl X), and knows she can pretty much out-distance any girl in her age group on the team. She is a natural distance swimmer, finds her pace and keeps it nice and steady (vs. speed up/slow down seen in most of the others). He had no doubt about Kathryn's "win" in this area. I was just so relieved about all of this. It really reinforced my confidence in her coach, too. Because I have seen this in my daughter, and I had told Kathryn that her coaches *know* how she swims, how the other girl swims, and they would know the problem. Personally, I'm hoping Kathryn will attempt the 400 and 800 free next year... the coaches might be quite surprised at how she performs :D Thank you everyone for your support! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Glad to hear the coach worked it out. I hope the other mom doesn't do anything when he finds out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 Glad to hear the coach worked it out. I hope the other mom doesn't do anything when he finds out. The coach said it was "on him." He'd take the heat for it... So, he's trying his best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I'd still be worried about her being vindictive. Some moms (and people) can sink low. Glad the coach will "take the heat". But there might be things that happen beyond this swim season. I sound paranoid. I guess having managed a summer team was an eye opener to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besroma Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 The coach pulled me aside today to tell me he had taken care of it. He is crediting Kathryn with 116 lengths (58 laps). He said he has watched her in practice (along with Girl X), and knows she can pretty much out-distance any girl in her age group on the team. She is a natural distance swimmer, finds her pace and keeps it nice and steady (vs. speed up/slow down seen in most of the others). He had no doubt about Kathryn's "win" in this area. I was just so relieved about all of this. It really reinforced my confidence in her coach, too. Because I have seen this in my daughter, and I had told Kathryn that her coaches *know* how she swims, how the other girl swims, and they would know the problem. Personally, I'm hoping Kathryn will attempt the 400 and 800 free next year... the coaches might be quite surprised at how she performs :D Thank you everyone for your support! Lisa Congrats! So glad it all worked out. I am sure you have one happy daughter!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I'm so glad to hear that the coach was fair, did the right thing, and is standing up for your dd. The other mom did her daughter such a disservice on so many levels. I'm glad she didn't get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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