Orton-Gillingham (Dyslexia)

[zenjenn]

So we have had an opportunity come up. One of my neighbors - and also a homeschooling mom of teens - has an M.A. in education and just finished Orton-Gillingham training. She is doing an internship and was seeking a student with dyslexia in the neighborhood she could work with. She was looking to charge $20 an hour, mostly to cover the cost of the training and intern program (This is all through a local K-12 school for dyslexia - we have it because the state of Alabama does not test for or deal with dyslexia at all in the public schools.) They are bringing in a scholar from a university out of state once a month to meet with the interns and discuss the progress of their students.

 

I had not heard of Orton-Gillingham prior to this. My daughter is, I guess, only mildly dyslexic. We had an evaluation done and I guess I am putting it this way because we have not had the struggles I hear some kids having, where they literally can't read or write without serious intervention. (For example, when I pulled my daughter from public school in 1st because her needs weren't being met, we had the eval and I looked into the private dyslexia school but her issues I do not think were severe enough to warrant the expense. The school's tuition was NOT cheap, to say the least.)

 

We have made a lot of progress - she is a VERY fluent reader and can write adequately, but we have had, and continue to have, issues. I try my best but a lot of it feels like stabbing in the dark.

 

I think with what I've been doing, we have been making progress and I have no doubt that we can get her to a point where she is academically functional enough to succeed in going to college, for example, but my main feeling is that her struggles are holding her back from reaching her potential. For example she is very bright and creative and has lots of stories to tell, but obstacles with spelling and the physical act of writing prevent her from getting them down on paper. We do WWE one year behind (WWE2 last year in 3rd grade) and the reading and comprehension questions/oral summaries were pretty much entirely trivial, but then doing the dictation is like *pulling teeth*. Weird directional sense issues cripple basic math operations and geography awareness (she will mix up north, south, east, west - will add when she's supposed to subtract and vice versa even though she conceptually understands addition and subtraction perfectly.) But since she has been scoring "average" in even areas I consider her *problem areas* I guess it wasn't on my radar to invest in something extra.

 

So now we have this opportunity. This woman would like to work with my daughter 2-3 times a week so even at her reduced rate, it's not totally cheap.

 

Curious if anyone has experience with Orton-Gillingham with their dyslexic child - especially a child that is already reading fluently. As of now we are moving ahead but of course it is an investment of time and money and it's not always easy to come up with either. When I've looked up info on this methodology I am finding VERY mixed information and very little personal experience. I'd love to hear about experiences of what to expect, or how I can/should participate or get something out of this as well.

Edited July 31, 2012 by zenjenn

[Dobela]

The difficulty writing sounds like dysgraphia to me.

[zenjenn]

When I say writing, it's really mostly the spelling that is crippling, but there are some writing issues too. Since learning cursive last year, that has improved dramatically.

 

I found it interesting that Orton-Gillingham emphasizes the use of cursive - and apparently a certain *type* of cursive where all the letters start in the same place on the line - and always from the bottom. My daughter has always been a bottom-to-top writer even with manuscript, and with cursive has an inclination to start at the bottom even when she "shouldn't", resulting in redundant strokes. This woman didn't know why Orton-Gillingham used a cursive that started at the bottom for all letters but it made me wonder if there is something about the way the dyslexic brain works that makes that more intuitive somehow? :confused:

[Dobela]

When I say writing, it's really mostly the spelling that is crippling, but there are some writing issues too. Since learning cursive last year, that has improved dramatically.

 

I found it interesting that Orton-Gillingham emphasizes the use of cursive - and apparently a certain *type* of cursive where all the letters start in the same place on the line - and always from the bottom. My daughter has always been a bottom-to-top writer even with manuscript, and with cursive has an inclination to start at the bottom even when she "shouldn't", resulting in redundant strokes. This woman didn't know why Orton-Gillingham used a cursive that started at the bottom for all letters but it made me wonder if there is something about the way the dyslexic brain works that makes that more intuitive somehow? :confused:

Several months ago we had a long discussion about cursive and from the bottom strokes on this forum. I can't find the link though, so I am hoping someone can jump in and share it with you. It was fantastic.

 

O-G is considered the best method for remediating dyslexia. I'd absolutely jump at this opportunity if you think the neighbor and your child would work well together.

:iagree: There may be gaps in your child's learning that are not showing up yet due to her age. Also, a good O-G program will also help with spelling. While my son's spelling is not great, it is 1000x better after working with an O-G tutor than it was before. I still hear him working thru the phonetic rules for some words when required to write. And that price is amazingly cheap.

[RamonaQ]

Several months ago we had a long discussion about cursive and from the bottom strokes on this forum. I can't find the link though, so I am hoping someone can jump in and share it with you. It was fantastic.

 

:iagree: There may be gaps in your child's learning that are not showing up yet due to her age. Also, a good O-G program will also help with spelling. While my son's spelling is not great, it is 1000x better after working with an O-G tutor than it was before. I still hear him working thru the phonetic rules for some words when required to write. And that price is amazingly cheap.

 

This is a golden opportunity. If you like the neighbor, I would ABSOLUTELY go for it. Likely the spelling will be helped. FWIW, O-G tutoring around here is anywhere from $75-$175/ hr.

[zenjenn]

This tutor explained how the method starts with re-learning the alphabet in a new way, and how it sometimes appears excessively simple to an older student.. but I explained it to my daughter and put a positive spin on it and I was really pleased to see her react in a very receptive and positive manner. I don't think she would have last year - she would have taken it *personally*. Even though her dad is dyslexic and we handle the topic sensitively and with encouragement, she has in the past gotten defensive about it. (I blame her little sister, unfortunately. Little sister is gifted with no learning disabilities and can sometimes be *smug* about being *better* than her big sister. Naturally we came down on that seriously and hard but the words spoken were not forgotten and the reality that she is out-performed by her baby sister is not lost on DD#1.)

 

I think she has gotten to the point that her spelling deficiencies are starting to make her self-conscious. (She's 10 - more self-awareness is sinking in.) She is willing and ready to try anything that will help which I think increases the chance of success by 1000%.

Edited July 31, 2012 by zenjenn

[Quiver0f10]

This is a golden opportunity. If you like the neighbor, I would ABSOLUTELY go for it. Likely the spelling will be helped. FWIW, O-G tutoring around here is anywhere from $75-$175/ hr.

 

:iagree: I would love an opportunity like this!

[merry gardens]

...Curious if anyone has experience with Orton-Gillingham with their dyslexic child - especially a child that is already reading fluently....

I have. While I bought the Orton-Gillingham program we use (Barton) for the child who had severe dyslexia at the time, I use it with my others. One probably has mild dyslexia and he was reading well when we started, we have uncovered and resolved some problems. Even in two whom I'm quite sure aren't dyslexic, the program has been good. Their spelling falls above average yet the lowest of the standardized test scores. For my readers, I use it for spelling and we've seen some improvements on standardized tests in spelling.

 

Orton Gillingham programs provide strong English language instruction. At the advanced levels it even gets into the origins of English and the influence from foreign language. I'm private prep-school and college educated, yet I've learned tons of information from our Orton-Gillingham based program too.

 

In my mildly dyslexic and non-dyslexic children, we go through Barton (the O-G based program we use) MUCH faster. It takes far less than half the time to cover the material. In the first level of the program, some of accomplished in one day what it took a couple of months for my severely dyslexic child to do! It might not take as long as you expect for your neighbor to work with your dd, so it might not cost too much overall-- but it also might not give the teacher-in-training much experience teaching someone with dyslexia.

[fromupnorth]

I'm a trained OG tutor and I'm passionate about children that have trouble writing (dysgraphia). OG is the gold standard for teaching struggling reads and the bases for program like Barton. If your children isn't dyslexic it may not be the appropriate solution. It's a great program for the right kids but it's not for all kids. Dysgraphia is not just difficulty with handwriting. Dysgraphia can stand alone or it can co-exist with other difficulties often dyslexia or ADD. My son is very dysgraphic with a little of all of the types, with a little bit of dyslexia (his reading speed and comprehension is significantly above grade level - but decoding and oral fluency accuracy is below grade level). I'd posted about the numerous types but it's too lengthy for here. Dysgraphia is also know as disorder of written expression.

 

OG is not a curriculum but a multisensory philosophy to teach reading that involves an explicit systematic approach where the student practices skill to automaticity. For my son with dysgraphia writing is not the gate way to learning. Putting a pencil in his hand is actually an interference to learning. He is 17 and next year will graduate high school with 64 college credits, however, if you look at something he penned vs typed vs dictated you will believe they are from three completely different people with a very different understanding of the material presented. And he read over 3 hours a day.

 

Look at National Center for Learning Disabilities (.org). They have videos entitled Ask the Expert, one is on dysgraphia. Also ldonline.org has some fantastic information.

 

Hope this helps in your journey.

[Pen]

For my son with dysgraphia writing is not the gate way to learning. Putting a pencil in his hand is actually an interference to learning. He is 17 and next year will graduate high school with 64 college credits, however, if you look at something he penned vs typed vs dictated you will believe they are from three completely different people with a very different understanding of the material presented.

.

 

I would love more detail on that...and examples of his penned vs. typed vs. dictated. I'm assuming penned is the worst, typed in between and dictated best? But maybe it is something different. I sometimes get this feeling with my child. Even in math it seems like he does better answering oral problems than writing them--that sometimes the pencil stops the thinking. What then is your take on writing programs, O-G or other ones, for the dysgraphic child?

 

You did not explicitly say so, but do you mean that you think O-G, while a great help with reading, does not particularly help writing? If not, what, if anything, do you think does help writing (all aspects, but especially the ones that cannot be fixed by substituting a keyboard for a pen) for a dysgraphic child? Should we be teaching them to dictate? Or what? How did you get yours to be able to do whichever thing it is he does best that has allowed him to do what he is doing despite his dysgraphia?

Edited August 2, 2012 by Pen

[zenjenn]

You did not explicitly say so, but do you mean that you think O-G, while a great help with reading, does not particularly help writing?

 

I'd like to know this too. That description sounds very similar to my daughter.

 

Though one distinction I might make is that she wants and likes to write. If I showed you samples of her writing, some of you would probably think I am nuts. Her writing does not appear problematic for a rising 4th grader. What you don't see is how *long* it took her to write or how disconnected it is to what she is capable of orally. Several people have suggested to me that she is 2E - but I don't want to have unrealistic expectations of her, either. I am constantly engaged with an inner dialogue with myself - telling myself that I am not doing enough to help her vs. telling myself I am expecting too much of her and that she is performing average in some areas and I am being a crazyparent for thinking she needs to be above average in everything. But when I see even on her standardized tests listening and reading comprehension at 99th percentile and and phoneme awareness barely scrapes average, it feels like a huge disconnect there.

Edited August 2, 2012 by zenjenn

[fromupnorth]

I just typed a reply that took so long I lost it. So I'll try and do it in chunks.

 

My son writes about 8 words per minute from memorized text. When he is creating the content it's about half of that. After we figured what was going on I thought we could teach him to type. So we started a typing program and he did 15-20 minutes 4/5 day a week. When he began he was typing 20 wpm and after six months he was at 21 wpm. So then we started scribing (high school) and he was so fast that noone could keep up with him. So then we went and got Dragon Naturally Speaking. I don't know what his speed is I just know the results are more in line with his knowledge of the content and he's not frustrated.

 

He now uses all three forms of writing. He's had a professor, where he was an active participant in class, be very generous in grading some of his short response. (He doesn't capitalize, spell is horrible and he has do use of punctuation). This is all about the working memory but that's another email. For most short answer response or short reflections he types. (He's created his own typing form and his speed has increased). Then for longer papers (over 3) he dictates.

 

He also has a notetaker. This was very important in pre-calc and college Chem.

[fromupnorth]

Long story....

When my son was in 7th grade his math teacher, unbeknownst to me, told my son that although he was one of her top students she wasn't recommending him for honor algebra because he never showed all his work and what he did was illegible. I've coach my son's Knowledge Bowl team and what I found interesting was one of the team members was a math nerd (I say that lovingly - I'll call him Joe). When a math question came up Joe would start to work on the problems but my son would come up with the answer first and he did it all in his head. Joe would never have got it done before the time limit was up.

 

About a year ago we found Efofex.com. It's a math and science program for kids after algebra. Check it out. It's been amazing. He used it for both his precalc and college chem classes. They had never seen the program but he went to both professor and demonstrated it and neither of them had a problem with him using it. (This was also coordinated through disability services.)

[fromupnorth]

Yes my son is 2E. He has a verbal IQ in the 99th percentile. His reading comprehension is very high (can't find it) but his decoding skill/word attack is at the 26th percentile putting his overall score in the 70th percentile and his overall writing in at the 39th percentile - a 40 point differential in his IQ and academic performance is extremely frustrating for him.

 

That said OG is a multisensory approach that in it's purist form requires the student to write all of the dictated word with paper and pencil. Susan Barton (Barton program) realizes that sometimes the act of writing can get in the way of student learning to read. Many OG tutors feel that the importance of writing can't be overlooked. Part of OG is writing sentences as well. So depending on the tutor they may or may not be sensitive to the struggles of a dysgraphic student. I think part of that will be what their previous experiences have been. I'm really sensitive to a dysgraphic child because of my son. Usually new tutors are less like to stray from what they've been taught.

 

I tutor 4 student (2 with official dx and 2 undergoing testing) that I think are dysgraphic and dyslexics - to varying degrees. Yes I have them write but not always. Sometimes they spell orally, other times in the sand/salt, sometimes with tiles, on the white board - that easier,. I really mix it up and I'm very observant of their writing fatigue. I've also recently purchased old-fashioned cartridge pens for calligraphy - they like those. It also help with pressure on the page, positioning of the hand, starting at the bottom - it doesn't work well then. I've also purchased an old manual typewriter but have to get it fixed. Some of the research says that learning to type on an manual typewriter helps them because of the resistance of the keys it creates a stronger muscle memory.

 

OG will help with the phonemic awareness.

Edited August 4, 2012 by fromupnorth

[fromupnorth]

Yes my son is 2E. He has a verbal IQ in the 99th percentile. His reading comprehension is very high (can't find it) but his decoding skill/word attack is at the 26th percentile putting his overall score in the 70th percentile and his overall writing in at the 39th percentile - a 40 point differential in his IQ and academic performance is extremely frustrating for him.

 

That said OG is a multisensory approach that in it's purist form requires the student to write all of the dictated word with paper and pencil. Susan Barton (Barton program) realizes that sometimes the act of writing can get in the way of student learning to read. Many OG tutors feel that the importance of writing can't be overlooked. Part of OG is writing sentences as well.

 

I tutor 4 student (2 with official dx and 2 undergoing testing) that are dysgraphic and dyslexics - to varying degrees. Yes I have them write but not always. Sometimes they spell orally, other times in the sand/salt, sometimes with tiles, on the white board - that easier,. I really mix it up and I'm very observant of their writing fatigue. I've also recently purchased old-fashioned cartridge pens for calligraphy - they like those. It also help with pressure on the page, positioning of the hand, starting at the bottom - it doesn't work well then. I've also purchased an old manual typewriter but have to get it fixed. Some of the research says that learning to type on an manual typewriter helps them because of the resistance of the keys it creates a stronger muscle memory.

 

OG will help with the phonemic awareness.

[fromupnorth]

I don't think that our children can completely avoid writing so I think it's important that we (usually the Mom) decide what the goal is. What I do know is that the act of writing needs to be separated from the creative part of the process. We've also purchased editing software for my son. One of his evaluators described his editing process like this. When we edit a sentence we read the sentence and use all the rules we know and edit the sentence -- capitalization, commas, spelling, punctuation.... When my son reads a sentence it goes like this.

He read the sentences and applies

Rule 1. Capitalize the first word in the sentence.

Then he reads the sentences again and

Rule 1a. Capitalize all I that are single.

Rule 1a. Capitalize all proper names (His first read if for Names only)

Then he reads the sentence again and does

Rule 1b. Capitalize all titles

Then he reads the sentence again and does

Rule 1c. Capitalize all dialogue

THen he goes to commas.

 

Oh, what else I forgot to say is dysgraphic children often use a mix of upper and lower case letter, so this is the most difficult of tasks.

 

The reality is by this time he see nothing because it says what he wants it to say.

 

My son talks about when he puts a pen in his hand it's like unplugging the rabbit ears on the TV set at his grandparents cabin. It just get fuzzy. Another student I work with says every time he writes a letter he has to visualize what it looks like and then often someone changes the font.

Edited August 4, 2012 by fromupnorth

[fromupnorth]

The other item to consider for some dysgraphic children is an Occupational Therapy evaluation. It's not that it made a huge difference in my son's penmanship in the "classroom" but it helped in some other ways. Susan Hutchinson, author of Handwriting Solutions - http://www.handwriting-solutions.com/, writes

Sue Hutchinson – International OT Consultant It is often thought that continued handwriting practice will improve a Dysgraphic student’s ability to use paper and pencil alone as a useful tool to complete all their written schoolwork. This is rarely the case. While Occupational Therapy can sometimes help to improve a Dysgraphic student’s letter and number formation in isolation and/or in short writing samples, this improvement is, 99.9% of the time, not able to be sustained when kids are actually using their handwriting to complete their written schoolwork. The same thing is true of making kids re-do written assignments to make them more legible. In cases of Dysgraphia, “practice does not make perfect.

 

IN preteen, teens and adults. Dysgraphic students have

difficulties with syntax structure and grammar (Dysgraphia and Dyslexia – dyslexiavictoriaonline.com)

Random (or non-existent) punctuation. Spelling errors (sometimes same word spelled differently); reversals; phonic approximations; syllable omissions; errors in common suffixes. Clumsiness and disordering of syntax; an impression of illiteracy. Misinterpretation of questions and questionnaire items. Disordered numbering and written number reversals.

[zenjenn]

Thank you for taking your time to share all that, fromupnorth.

 

Looking into this I really don't think the description of dysgraphia applies to my daughter. Her writing is quite legible and she enjoys the act of writing. She has never had an issue with punctuation, capitalization, etc. It's issues with dyslexia (particularly spelling) that slows her down so much.

[fromupnorth]

ZenJenn, Orton Gillingham should really help her then. I think that it will be well worth your time and energy and the cost is significantly lower that you would expect to pay with an OG tutor.

 

I'm just going to add a 'little' more about dysgraphia for other that might be following. Mostly I've been talking about motor dysgraphia but not all dysgraphics have illegible handwriting although it's often a red flag. Below is from how Susan Hutchinson describes them. (She defines 5 most other only define 3 - Duell's definition is after Susan's)

 

The 5 Types of Dysgraphia

Dyslexic Dysgraphia

With Dyslexic Dysgraphia a person’s spontaneously written work is usually illegible, copied work is pretty good, and spelling is bad. Finger tapping speed (a method for identifying fine motor problems) is normal. A Dyslexic Dysgraphic does not necessarily have Dyslexia. Dyslexia and Dysgraphia appear to be unrelated but often can occur together.

Motor Dysgraphia

Motor Dysgraphia is due to deficient fine motor skills, poor dexterity, poor muscle tone, and/or unspecified motor clumsiness. Generally, written work is poor to illegible, even if copied by sight from another document. Letter formation may be acceptable in very short samples of writing, but this requires extreme effort, an unreasonable amount of time to accomplish and cannot be sustained for a significant length of time. Writing is often slanted due to holding a pen or pencil incorrectly. Spelling skills are not impaired. Finger tapping speed results are below normal.

Spatial Dysgraphia

Spatial Dysgraphia is due to a defect in the understanding of space. This person has illegible spontaneously written work, illegible copied work, but normal spelling and normal finger tapping speed. Students with Spatial Dysgraphia often have trouble keeping their writing on the lines and difficulty with spacing between words.

Phonological Dysgraphia

Phonological Dysgraphia is characterized by writing and spelling disturbances in which the spelling of unfamiliar words, non-words, and phonetically irregular words is impaired. Individuals with Phonological Dysgraphia are also unable to hold phonemes in memory and blend them in their appropriate sequence to produce the target word.

Lexical Dysgraphia

Lexical Dysgraphia is evidenced when a person can spell but relies on standard sound-to-letter patterns with misspelling of irregular words. This is more common in languages such as English and French which are less phonetic than a language such as Spanish. This type of Dysgraphia is very rare in children.

 

 

Some children may have more than one type of Dysgraphia. Symptoms, in actuality, may vary in presentation from what is listed here.

 

 

From Margaret Kay's website

Deuel (1994) has divided dysgraphia into three subtypes:

 

 

 

• Dyslexic dysgraphia
   
  
  
• Dysgraphia due to motor clumsiness
   
  
  
• Dysgraphia due to a defect in the understanding of space
  

 

In dyslexic dysgraphia, spontaneously written text is poorly legible and spelling is severely abnormal. Copying of written text is relatively preserved, however, and finger-tapping speed on a neuropsychological battery is generally normal.

 

Dysgraphia due to motor clumsiness is associated with poorly legible spontaneously written text, preserved spelling, and poorly legible copying of written text. Finger tapping speed in such cases is generally abnormal.

 

Dysgraphia due to a defect in understanding of space is associated with poorly legible spontaneously written text, preserved spelling, poorly legible copying of written text, and normal finger tapping speed.

[MathNut]

Definitely jump on the opportunity. An OG tutor in our area costs $100 an hour.

 

I have 3 dyslexic children - 2 very severe. One of my children attends a school that costs $56K a year. This summer we've been seeing a tutor for 3 hours a week. It is well worth it to see how efficient this tutor uses instructional time and to see how much my son is learning.

 

Nothing beats 1:1 for these students. even a specialized school can not come close to what this tutor is doing with our son. If your dd is mild - they will likely move at a quicker pace.

 

I think the direct, multisensory instruction will help with spelling - which is the bane of every dyslexic.

 

At $20 an hour, I'd be signing up for an hour a day! Without batting an eyelash.

 

Best,

vicki

[zenjenn]

Update: My daughter started this tutoring.. she has only received two sessions so far and I am already SO excited! This was a great move..

 

The thing is, since my daughter is literate it is very hard to articulate what exactly I think her *problems* are. Even when we had the dyslexia assessment done - the specialist said "Well, she certainly exhibits a lot of the traits/issues consistent with someone with dyslexia..." but she was clearly literate, strong language skills, etc. So when I contacted this tutor it was very much "Well, she just has... *STUFF*." I don't know how to articulate it exactly without just rambling. When I tried to bring it up in school (when she used to attend, K/1, the teachers were very dismissive (of course, in Alabama, the schools don't even recognize dyslexia or do anything about it.)

 

The initial assessment activities the tutor did *immediately* highlighted all the *stuff* I couldn't articulate. You'd never think a parent would be so thrilled to see an assessment that highlights all these flaws in a clear way. Like how she randomly will skip a letter when reciting the alphabet (at age 10, even though she totally knows the alphabet and is reading middle-school novels). How if you ask her to repeat back words (verbally)... they just don't come out quite right. The tutor did this and used nonsense words which REALLY highlighted what I sense with her. And on and on. It makes me think this is actually going to help her! :D She is going 3x a week.

Edited August 23, 2012 by zenjenn