Need help with 10th grade, long

[RhondaM.]

My 16 year old is very bright, interesting, but for the most part unmotivated to get his work done. Not that he considers what he does with his time as goofing off. He would rather be on the internet reading about environmental issues, playing his guitar or his keyboard, listening to history lectures and a number of other interesting things. He is so interested in so many educational things that I cannot get him to stay focused on his work.

 

So I have devised ways to keep him accountable. Plus everything we are doing this coming fall he has an interest in.

 

Here is what we are using for curriculum.

 

Biology - Holt Biology. I have the SE and the TE. The One Stop Planner cd is on it's way.

Illustrated Guide to Home Biology Experiments plus the lab kit and a microscope. Planning to work in Science Roots as well.

 

History - History Odyssey. I went through the lesson plans and pulled out all the literature and writing assignments. That left me with just the history readings, How to Read a Book (and workbook) and Rulebook of Argument to schedule out for the year. (we will use some of the writing assignments. I have scheduled time for writing, but not specific assignments)

 

Literature - Epic of Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, the Oresteia, Oedipus Cycle, and some or all plays in Aristophanes (Clouds, Wasp, Birds), Metamorphoses and The Aeneid.*

For these I'll have literature guides and other helps from Kolbe as well as History Odyssey. Plus I have the Teaching Company lectures for Homer and Greek Plays. Oh, and *Fagles Iliad and Odyssey audio so we can read along.

 

Writing- Classical Writing Diogenes, doing both books in one year, using the CW paper evaluations as needed.

 

Math- Holt Geometry with math tutor.

 

Guitar with tutor.

 

Henle Latin w/ Memoria Press guide (wish I could afford to sign him up for their class!)

 

All of this will be a VERY full load for us!

 

Here are my accountability plans.*

 

First of all I have enrolled him in Kolbe Academy as well as their Evaluation Service, even though you can see that we will not really be doing Kolbe. This way I will be able to send them 12 papers throughout each 9 weeks for them to grade (history compositions) plus 2 graded papers every 9 weeks for each subject.

 

We can call Kolbe at anytime to ask questions. So my plan is so have my son write down his questions (this will come in handy for Latin I hope.) and talk to them a couple of times a week, just so he feels as if he is touching base with someone other than myself.

 

Besides that I have contacted a science tutor who I plan to have him meet with 2x a month to go over any concepts he is having problems with.

I also have a friend who has said she will be his 'councilor', calling him a couple of times a week and taking to him about his course load.*

 

I will personally be involved in most subjects, not just sending him off to work.

My youngest child is going to public school this year so I will be able to devote all of my time to him.*

 

So, between math, science and guitar tutors, Kolbe and CW evaluations I don't know what more I can do.*

 

I've thought of giving his a weekly allowance based on how much work he accomplishes each week.

 

So...is this enough work, enough accountability??

 

I would really appreciate some feedback on this. I am scared to death that 10th will be no better than 9th. This kid IS college material, but he just drags his feet so hard!

 

Thanks in advance,

RhondaM.

[Starr]

:bigear:

[Chris in VA]

My 16 year old is very bright, interesting, but for the most part unmotivated to get his work done. Not that he considers what he does with his time as goofing off. He would rather be on the internet reading about environmental issues, playing his guitar or his keyboard, listening to history lectures and a number of other interesting things. He is so interested in so many educational things that I cannot get him to stay focused on his work.

 

Y'know, he sounds like an unschooler to me. On his own, without prompting, rewards, grades, or being accountable to someone else, he learns environmental science, 2 musical instruments, history...nearly a full curriculum. Probably not what you want to hear.

 

I don't know about your plans, but I would say use as many of his interests to plan his work as you can. Internal motivation is always best. IOW, make "his work," HIS work. Sounds like he has a lot of drive in the topics he chooses, and he isn't choosing things like crummy video games or girls.

[RhondaM.]

Y'know, he sounds like an unschooler to me. On his own, without prompting, rewards, grades, or being accountable to someone else, he learns environmental science, 2 musical instruments, history...nearly a full curriculum. Probably not what you want to hear.

 

I don't know about your plans, but I would say use as many of his interests to plan his work as you can. Internal motivation is always best. IOW, make "his work," HIS work. Sounds like he has a lot of drive in the topics he chooses, and he isn't choosing things like crummy video games or girls.

 

On one hand I agree with you. He has learned tons on his own about all ares of science and can discuss things very intelligently.

 

But, except for all the conversations (and there are many every day) about his various interest there is not much output. No papers, noworksheets, no hours that can be counted. Nothing I can even test him over.

 

I do cater to his interest. I always manage to have on hand what he is interested in.

 

But to let him just unschool? I wish it could work. Thankfully thought he does have an interest in each subject.

 

And yes, I realize that this is a discipline issue. Discipline is hard when there is nothing to ground him from. He has no outside interest. Few friends. Very quiet. He keeps to himself and just learns.

[TechWife]

We had a very difficult 9th grade year in our house as well. I had a lot of thoughts running through my head as I read your post, so my response may be equally as long. :)

 

First and foremost - have you worked out a four year high school plan with your son? If you have not, I think this is the first thing you need to do and he needs to be involved in the process. This will help you determine whether or not you are giving him enough work.

 

If I understand you correctly, you don't think your son is motivated to get his work done and your solution is to hold him more accountable through various means. Motivating teens is really tricky because, in my experience, we really can't do it. They have to do it themselves. Whether or not outside accountability is the answer depends upon the individual person. Does your son think that outside accountability will motivate him? Does he think the allowance based upon work done will motivate him?

 

My 16 year old is very bright, interesting, but for the most part unmotivated to get his work done. Not that he considers what he does with his time as goofing off. He would rather be on the internet reading about environmental issues, playing his guitar or his keyboard, listening to history lectures and a number of other interesting things. He is so interested in so many educational things that I cannot get him to stay focused on his work.

 

I'd have to agree with him - he's not goofing off.

 

So I have devised ways to keep him accountable. Plus everything we are doing this coming fall he has an interest in.

 

Here is what we are using for curriculum.

 

What was your primary consideration in choosing curriculum - his interests or the accountability?

 

Did you involve him in the choices of study subjects and curriculum?

 

Does he think these additional measures will help him get his work done well and in a timely manner?

 

Biology - Does he have to have biology? If not, what about environmental science, perhaps even having him take the AP exam. If he has to do biology, how about letting him pick & choose some experiments? Perhaps a combination of experiments that you require and ones he chooses himself would benefit him & allow him to customize the course a bit.

 

History - Incorporate lectures into the program since he enjoys listening to history lectures. Let him find lectures that he wants to hear, or work with him to find them. Don't forget that documentaries are a possibility as well.

 

Literature - Have you thought through your rationale for choosing the books that you have? Is there a mix of books he would be interested in and ones that he'll just have to get done? Did he have any input? Are you going to watch any films based on the books before or after you read them?

 

Writing - does this method of instruction suit his style? Is there a different program that might better suit him?

 

Guitar - have you left him enough time to practice his guitar? Ask the tutor to set a guideline for how much he should practice each day.

 

Latin - Does he want to or need to learn Latin? Can you choose a program that focuses on the application of Latin in science, which seems to be one of his interests? What does he think about Latin? Is there another language that he'd rather learn? Also, will the colleges he's thinking about take Latin as a second language? Some do and some don't. Be sure to check into this.

 

All of this will be a VERY full load for us!

It is a very full load. Don't forget to keep the big picture in mind. He is a person first and a student second. There is so much more he needs to learn other than academics. Have you left any time for him to pursue his own interests? What about a hobby? Does he have time to get a job? What will you expect out of him as far as chores are concerned? What about having time to be with friends?

 

What is the benefit of Kolbe if he isn't using their materials? The paper grading? I guess if that's something you feel you need it's probably worth it to you.

 

As far as the science tutor goes, it sounds like a great idea. Is this person active in the science community as a scientist or is this a science teacher? The first would be a much better option and would enable him to have a mentor to talk about not only questions he may be having with his class, but also to talk about current events in science, etc.

 

My son would not go with the counselor idea AT ALL. He would be to embarrassed to talk to one of my friends about problems he might be having with his school work. Have you also considered that you might be putting your friend in an awkward position? What does your son think about this?

[JanetC]

All of this will be a VERY full load for us!

 

I've BTDT on the lots of input, not much output thing. My advice is to take baby steps.

 

What is the biggest worry you have? If it's writing, add lots of accountability around writing. Then if math comes next, do math. Etc. Work up one subject at a time.

 

Going straight from "low output and little accountability" to "lots of work, on a strict schedule" is a set-up for failure. Yes, that might be the end goal, but it will take time.

 

The other thing I would do is schedule the days by the hour, to make sure you are not over-scheduling beyond his abilities, leaving no breaks or time for unstructured activities. The first few weeks of schedule-by-the-hour are for learning how long things take and when the most productive hours of the day are, and adjusting accordingly.

 

--Janet

[TechWife]

But, except for all the conversations (and there are many every day) about his various interest there is not much output. No papers, noworksheets, no hours that can be counted. Nothing I can even test him over.

 

The conversations are great output and you can certainly give grades based upon that. Some criteria might include whether or not he has a solid grasp of the topic at hand, how is connects it to other topics/disciplines, does he go back and do more reading/research based upon the things that come up in your conversations, etc.. You can also count the hours that he spends reading & researching. Worksheets and tests aren't the be all and end all of grading. As for tests, occasionally say something like - "I need to record a grade for science so I need you to write an essay (or report, or research paper) on the economics and social impact of nuclear waste disposal (or whatever he's been talking to you about).

 

And yes, I realize that this is a discipline issue. Discipline is hard when there is nothing to ground him from. He has no outside interest. Few friends. Very quiet. He keeps to himself and just learns.

 

Discipline is hard at this age - he's going to work much better if he's motivated & he has also reached the age when he has to motivate himself.

 

:tongue_smilie:The teen years aren't always a lot of fun when it comes to schooling, I know.

[Wildcat]

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Edited January 6, 2023 by Wildcat

[MicheleinMN]

I just wanted to say how glad I am to see you!!!!!!!!! :lol::D

[Wildcat]

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Edited January 6, 2023 by Wildcat

[elegantlion]

I'm in a similar boat with output. I've googled a few participation rubrics and plan to use those in some instances.

 

I also asked about oral exams last year, I can't find the thread right now, but Ester Maria (miss her) and Regentrude gave me some helpful tips on dealing with oral grades.

 

This page on Bloom's Taxonomy also has some great ideas on alternative sources of output. I plan on going through these with ds and basing some grades off certain exercises. I haven't fully decided how, some of that will be up to ds.

[RhondaM.]

We had a very difficult 9th grade year in our house as well. I had a lot of thoughts running through my head as I read your post, so my response may be equally as long. :)

 

First and foremost - have you worked out a four year high school plan with your son? If you have not, I think this is the first thing you need to do and he needs to be involved in the process. This will help you determine whether or not you are giving him enough work.*

 

If I understand you correctly, you don't think your son is motivated to get his work done and your solution is to hold him more accountable through various means. Motivating teens is really tricky because, in my experience, we really can't do it. They have to do it themselves. Whether or not outside accountability is the answer depends upon the individual person. Does your son think that outside accountability will motivate him? Does he think the allowance based upon work done will motivate him?*

 

Yes, we have a 4 year plan for the most part. He knows he wants to go into something with science but he does not know what.*

 

Yes, he feels that outside motivation will help him. Including my friend as councilor. Or someone as councilor. When I mentioned talking to Kolbe and a science tutor and a councilor he actually looked a little relieved.

 

 

What was your primary consideration in choosing curriculum - his interests or the accountability?*

 

Did you involve him in the choices of study subjects and curriculum?*

 

Ancient history is his favorite time period. He has said over and over that he NEEDS to go through The Rulebook of Arguement which is scheduled right into History Odyssey. He knows the primary spine for HO is a bit dry, but he does not mind. He is used to reading dryer material on his own. I gave him a choice on reading that or several other history spines.*

 

 

Biology - Does he have to have biology? If not, what about environmental science, perhaps even having him take the AP exam. If he has to do biology, how about letting him pick & choose some experiments? Perhaps a combination of experiments that you require and ones he chooses himself would benefit him & allow him to customize the course a bit.*

 

Yes he needs biology. He did environmental this year using Oak Meadow. He did the least he could. He read the text, answered questions often incorrectly, yet could spout of tons of material he learned outside the text that he had learned from videos and reading news articles.

 

How could I possibly do an AP course with him when I cannot get him to study?

 

He is going to love having a microscope. And the toe of experiments in our lab book look like they will interest him. But yes, we can pick and choose.

 

History - Incorporate lectures into the program since he enjoys listening to history lectures. Let him find lectures that he wants to hear, or work with him to find them. Don't forget that documentaries are a possibility as well.*

 

He loves lectures but can only sit and listen for so long. We are doing Teaching Company lectures for literature.

 

*Literature - Have you thought through your rationale for choosing the books that you have? Is there a mix of books he would be interested in and ones that he'll just have to get done? Did he have any input? Are you going to watch any films based on the books before or after you read them?*

 

He wants to do ancient literature. He loves the two of us to sit and read together.

 

*Writing - does this method of instruction suit his style? Is there a different program that might better suit him?*

 

He asked to go back to CW this year. He was very successful with CW Homer when he was younger. He is a good writer as far as style and vocabulary, but needs organizational skills.

Also I feel I can 'teach' CW easier than anything else.*

 

I did try getting him a writing tutor this year. I think we used Write Guide. (mabe it was with someone else) It took him TWO months to write a one page paper on Animal Farm. And I was not happy with the results.

 

Guitar - have you left him enough time to practice his guitar? Ask the tutor to set a guideline for how much he should practice each day.*

 

Well, this year he has had plenty of time to practice his guitar since he has been a true slacker in other areas :-/

 

Latin - Does he want to or need to learn Latin? Can you choose a program that *focuses on the application of Latin in science, which seems to be one of *his interests? What does he think about Latin? Is there another language that he'd rather learn? Also, will the colleges he's thinking about take Latin as a second language? Some do and some don't. Be sure to check into this.

 

Well, he needs 2 foreign language credits. Anything other than Latin will have to be with Rosetta Stone or something like that. He wants to have learned Latin, but no he does not want to put in the time to do it. He understands that the little bit of Latin we did in earlier years has helped him vocabulary wise.

 

I'm more worried about Latin than anything else. Is there a program that focuses on the application in Latin. Science Roots is a Latin/Greek science vocabulary program that we are going to use.

 

 

It is a very full load. Don't forget to keep the big picture in mind. He is a person first and a student second. There is so much more he needs to learn other than academics. Have you left any time for him to pursue his own interests? What about a hobby? Does he have time to get a job? What will you expect out of him as far as chores are concerned? What about having time to be with friends?*

 

Guitar is a hobby. Keyboard is a hobby. He is not very outgoing. Not interested in sports. Not much to do where we live.*

 

I think the kids around here have a problem with him and his soap boxes. They are good kids but not into anything that resembles school stuff and not much interested in the things he is interested in. We have tried to work with him on just relaxing and hanging out and talking about every day things. But it's like he can't. He alienates himself.

 

 

*What is the benefit of Kolbe if he isn't using their materials? The paper grading? I guess if that's something you feel you need it's probably worth it to you.*

 

As far as the science tutor goes, it sounds like a great idea. Is this person active in the science community as a scientist or is this a science teacher? The first would be a much better option and would enable him to have a mentor to talk about not only questions he may be having with his class, but also to talk about current events in science, etc.*

 

My son would not go with the counselor idea AT ALL. He would be to embarrassed to talk to one of my friends about problems he might be having with his school work. Have you also considered that you might be putting your friend in an awkward position? *What does your son think about this?

 

Yes, Kolbe is simply for evaluations and questions we have as well as helping me with an official looking transcript.*

 

The science tutor is just a teacher. They will talk/review online.

 

My friend is the type to do this sort of thing. He does not know her and I never mentioned it was my friend. I just said I had arranged for a councilor to check in with him. He liked the idea. It is just a thought and I would pay someone to do it if I could find a general tutor. He wants accountability. He wants to do well. He gets so upset that he has not forced himself to work.

 

He wants to go to college ( while at the same time complaining about the high cost of colleges and all that).*

 

I am just so worried about it all.Thanks for your thoughts.

[RhondaM.]

Scheduling by the hour is the plan. That way he has a start and end time.

Thanks.

[RhondaM.]

*

The conversations are great output and you can certainly give grades based upon that. Some criteria might include whether or not he has a solid grasp of the topic at hand, how is connects it to other topics/disciplines, does he go back and do more reading/research based upon the things that come up in your conversations, etc.. You can also count the hours *that he spends reading & researching. Worksheets and tests aren't the be all and end all of grading. As for tests, occasionally say something like - "I need to record a grade for science so I need you to write an essay (or report, or research paper) on the economics and social impact of nuclear waste disposal (or whatever he's been talking to you about).

 

Most of the topics he 'studies' are way over my head. His interest are too many. I can't keep up. He dabbles here and there, learning about geometry (informally) in art and architecture. We spend time going through art books. He listens to classical music. He draws, right now geometrical shapes. He tells me all about Fibonacci numbers, the Pythagoras theory, color and music...and the affects on the brain...he sees all the connections. And this is one small area. There is psychology and astronomy and evolution. He is into politics. He has really been drawn into trying to decide which side he is on on many important issues. He would enjoy a debate class. There are none in our area though. And he would not be welcome unless it was a secular group as he is very outspoken. Adults love talking to him. He'd rather be with adults than kids.

 

Yet he expresses his frustration at not being able to focus on any one thing.

I have no idea how to get a handle on his type of learning.*

I certainly cannot keep up with him in order to know if he has truly learned the material. He can talk about things intelligently. Getting writing out of him in order to evaluate his learning is a huge issue. Hoping that since he requested CW that this problem will resolve itself.

 

Thanks again,

[RhondaM.]

You know, maybe I should take him to the college and talk to a councilor there. I think this is something I should do this summer. Thanks,

[TippyCanoe]

.

[TechWife]

He dabbles here and there, learning about geometry (informally) in art and architecture. We spend time going through art books. He listens to classical music. He draws, right now geometrical shapes. He tells me all about Fibonacci numbers, the Pythagoras theory, color and music...and the affects on the brain...he sees all the connections.

 

Have you looked at The Art of Problem Solving? One of their programs on number theory might be of interest to him. These books might be of interest to him:

 

Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain by Oliver Sacks

This is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession by Daniel Levitan

 

He might also like these books:

Designing Playgrounds

A Blueprint for Geometry

 

There are a lot of possibilities here. I have a list of books related to architecture if you'd like to, I'll post it.

[RhondaM.]

Thanks for list. Have you ever looked at Squaring the Circle: Geometry in Art and Architecture?

 

Thanks again,

Rhonda

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, did you ever follow up on your concern of ADHD from several years ago? http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?p=468983&highlight=adhd#post468983 You have quite a few markers for it. Rather than going to your counselor friend, I'd get an actual neuropsychologist eval. A neuropsychologist could do more than your ped did and could point you in some practical directions besides meds.

Edited July 29, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[RhondaM.]

Rhonda, did you ever follow up on your concern of ADHD from several years ago? http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?p=468983&highlight=adhd#post468983 You have quite a few markers for it. Rather than going to your counselor friend, I'd get an actual neuropsychologist eval. A neuropsychologist could do more than your ped did and could point you in some practical directions besides meds.

 

This was his older brother who was a whole different kind of challenge.

Rhonda

[PeterPan]

Ah, gotcha. Well might be worth looking at for this ds too. You certainly have a number of things that would be explained by it, and it often runs in families. You specifically said he's having trouble focusing, isn't organizing his life as well as he'd like, etc. etc.

[TechWife]

Thanks for list. Have you ever looked at Squaring the Circle: Geometry in Art and Architecture?

 

Thanks again,

Rhonda

 

That looks wonderful! Thank you!

[RhondaM.]

I bought this for my son. It is a great looking book and I hope it inspires him. He loves it but I wonder if he will actually use it. It also has lessons for using the Geometers Sketchpad which I have been very curious about.

RhondaM.

[TechWife]

It looks like you could make it his geometry credit, honestly. I've been curious about the Geometer's Sketchpad, too. I find the web site a little too general, or maybe I just haven't taken the time to read through it slowly enough.

 

Have you ever read The Teenage Liberation Handbook?

[TechWife]

What a good idea. At 16, he may be eligible for some duel enrollment classes. Very cool.

[kiana]

It looks like you could make it his geometry credit, honestly. I've been curious about the Geometer's Sketchpad, too. I find the web site a little too general, or maybe I just haven't taken the time to read through it slowly enough.

 

Have you ever read The Teenage Liberation Handbook?

 

That book looks BRILLIANT. Added to my wishlist.

 

If you're interested, I did some googling and found a bunch of info online for the dartmouth course it was written for -- http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/syllabus.html

[RhondaM.]

That book looks BRILLIANT. Added to my wishlist.

 

If you're interested, I did some googling and found a bunch of info online for the dartmouth course it was written for -- http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/syllabus.html

 

Yes, I had found that too. It all looks very interesting.

RhondaM.

[TechWife]

That book looks BRILLIANT. Added to my wishlist.

 

If you're interested, I did some googling and found a bunch of info online for the dartmouth course it was written for -- http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/syllabus.html

 

Thanks for the info - I'm going to add this to my son's list of art possibilities.

[Jann in TX]

You have commented that he needs constant re-direction to stay on tasks that he is not interested in.

 

Unfortunately he still NEEDS to learn those concepts/subjects (like Math :tongue_smilie: )

 

He is definitely a different learner than his brother-- he is able to process more material--BUT he has to make an incredible effort to stay on task. He tends to tune out when he thinks he 'understands' the material--missing some of the details.

 

He does seem to have a positive outlook and an interest in learning new information (of his own choosing that varies from minute to minute--but is more environmental/science related).

 

IMHO a professional evaluation may help you determine how to help him focus on the tasks at hand.

[RhondaM.]

He is definitely a different learner than his brother-- he is able to process more material--BUT he has to make an incredible effort to stay on task. He tends to tune out when he thinks he 'understands' the material--missing some of the details.

 

Oh yes, exactly about the tuning out when he thinks he understands! I think that for the moment he does get it, but then he forgets and can't complete lessons until he talks to you again. He does that to me constantly.

 

He does seem to have a positive outlook and an interest in learning new information (of his own choosing that varies from minute to minute--but is more environmental/science related).

 

IMHO a professional evaluation may help you determine how to help him focus on the tasks at hand.

 

How would I go about having him evaluated? Who does this sort of evaluating?

Thanks Jann.

RhondaM.