# Math: Compare Saxon, Horizons, and CLE for me?

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:confused: I am using Horizons and I need more in the TM and more fun manipulatives. I like the colorful workbook and short lessons, but I feel like DD is struggling with the constant skipping around combined with the fact that the lessons are very short. She is struggling with understanding bar graphs and place value. (She can add 2 digit numbers by columns no problem...I think she just does not understand why.) We don't get to it everyday and sometimes miss a week and that just compounds the problem considering the spiral format. What would you suggest?

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I am interested in a comparison of Horizons and CLE. I have used Horizons as a supplement to Singapore off and on for the last year. My dd would like to be more independent which is why I am thinking about maybe switching to CLE.

Jan

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• 5 months later...

Bump

:lurk5:

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I used Saxon 1 last year for about 4 months and then switched to Horizons 1 for a few weeks, and then picked Saxon back up.

Horizons TM only gives you the concept that is to be covered with each lesson and gives some manipulatives ideas that can be used (but not included).

Saxon's TM is scripted, so it gave me the confidence that I was actually teaching, using correct "math wording". It takes me thru teaching concepts, "building" as we go. It gives me the ability to teach my child math. With Horizons I was not doing that. All I was doing is talking my dc thru the worksheets, I'm not a math teacher, so I wouldn't know how to present a concept, use correct wording, or use manipulatives in the correct fashion.

The best example I can give is that Saxon uses "some, some more stories, with manipulatives, learning doubles, 1+1=2, 2+2=4...and so on... with that then, the child knows even numbers, and then doubles + 1 fact are easily introduced.

It amazes me they how they can take one concept and build SEVERAL other concepts on that one initial one.

I definitely would not know how to present this...

HTH

BTW, I haven't done CLE

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I have used Horizons with both children as a summer review book, and have used CLE for several years now.

I prefer the instructions in CLE. They are extremely clear for kids that are able to teach themselves. Mostly I check and teach them anything they're really missing, but that's rare for my two.

The pages of CLE are also less "dense," usually four pages per lesson with a lot of white space. I haven't compared the number of problems, but I think they're about the same.

My only regret with CLE is that they are still working on Algebra in their Sunrise format (far superior). My older one will be ready for Algebra about this time next year, so I've made plans to transition to a combination of Math-U-See and Life of Fred.

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I switched from Horizons to MUS, in case anyone was wondering. No plans to supplement. I tried getting Horizons back out, but it just skips around to much. I can't stand it. Plus DD does not want additional math work after MUS, and I see no reason to force her. I think CLE sounds really good. With Saxon, so many people hate it that I was afraid to try it. Plus, I was told it has an incremental approach like Horizons (sounds like I was wrong about that).

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Lovedtodeath, I hope you don't mind me resurrecting your post. I'm trying to make a final decision about moving from A Beka to CLE and was hoping for additional input. I'm glad you found something that you are happy with.:)

I have used Horizons with both children as a summer review book, and have used CLE for several years now.

I prefer the instructions in CLE. They are extremely clear for kids that are able to teach themselves. Mostly I check and teach them anything they're really missing, but that's rare for my two.

The pages of CLE are also less "dense," usually four pages per lesson with a lot of white space. I haven't compared the number of problems, but I think they're about the same.

The teacher instruction was one specific point I was weighing in considering Horizons so these comments were very helpful. My house is very busy at times, and I need to know dd8 can proceed without me if need be. I also think CLE has great fact drills incorporated in the light unit that Horizon lacks and my dd needs this.

I don't hesitate to try new things but I'm slow to make a final decision. I tried CLE and love it. Now I think I'm just looking for someone to push me over the CLE cliff--so to speak. :D

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Lovedtodeath, I hope you don't mind me resurrecting your post. I'm trying to make a final decision about moving from A Beka to CLE and was hoping for additional input. I'm glad you found something that you are happy with.:)

The teacher instruction was one specific point I was weighing in considering Horizons so these comments were very helpful. My house is very busy at times, and I need to know dd8 can proceed without me if need be. I also think CLE has great fact drills incorporated in the light unit that Horizon lacks and my dd needs this.

I don't hesitate to try new things but I'm slow to make a final decision. I tried CLE and love it. Now I think I'm just looking for someone to push me over the CLE cliff--so to speak. :D

I haven't tried Horizons or Saxon either, but I'm switching my DD to CLE from R&S Math. I *love* R&S math, but they switch to textbook form in 3rd grade and I think my DD will do better in workbooks. I also like that CLE promotes independent work, which is what I'm trying to move my oldest into more and more through her 3rd grade year. They also seem to be a bit more rigorous than even R&S, which I'm not as concerned about, but at least I know we won't be going backwards! I'm still trying to decide about switching my youngster to CLE in the early years. I like how integrated the flashcard drill program is in CLE, but that seems like a minor reason to change, since everything else is working fine.

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You doubtlessly know I've been using Saxon 1 with my daughter. She can do the work, but we've reached a point (lesson 27, I believe) where she is required to have the doubles memorized (2+2=4, 3+3=6, and so on); if she does not memorize these, she cannot continue with the book. Because my daughter is only 4.5, I don't feel that I should force her to memorize these; however, now we cannot use the book anymore, know what I mean? This frustrates me about Saxon. It did not provide any creative ways for me to teach her the doubles facts. I supposed I could search the Internet for fun ideas and who knows, I might do that (and make it fun!). Otherwise I liked Saxon, though the constant repetition might frustrate some children. My daughter reached a point where she was irritably saying, "I already know how to do that!" :glare:

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in my search for math that would "have it all".

We used Saxon K when dd was 3, which she loved. I did skip around in it because she knew some of it. We did RightStart A, B, and C as our main math from that point, which I loved the mental math, but it didn't have enough drill, among other beefs I had with it. So I added in portions of others, so understand that my viewpoint is from that angle-not using any of them completely for a whole year, but using significant parts. Others I just own and studied thoroughly (math is my weak point so I'm obsessive about teaching it and try to glean teaching methods from any programs!)

Saxon 1 and 2 were very, very good, I thought. But after grade 3, the format changes completely! Plus dd needed more spiral. Horizons we used for about six months (over a spring and summer when we finished RS A early). I thought it was very good as far as spiral, color, etc., but when I got my hands on some of the TMs from the older grades (4 and 5), I thought they were lacking in hand-holding for the teacher. A df who has used Horizons all the way through is switching to TT next year (after 4th grade) because the Horizons TM wasn't giving her enough help. Plus if I recall, Horizons ends at 6th grade. I also have a couple of the early levels of R +S, which looks good but not enough spiral for us. At one point I went to a BJU hotel show and spent about 3 hours looking just at the math (I told you I'm obsessed!), plus researched it online a lot, and I liked it except the TM was unwieldy (although the new edition is slightly better) and schoolish.

I was looking for something:

1. spiral

2. rigorous

3. easy to teach, but also something dd could do slightly independently

4. incorporated fact drills

CLE is all of that and more! I started adding CLE1 on top of RSB as a supplement for more drill and written practice (and more work with things RS doesn't cover in as much detail-like graphs, money etc.), then did CLE2 at the same time as RSC. Now we're in CLE3 (dropped the RS), and it's going fine. I did want to do RS because I like the foundation it laid in understanding the math, esp. place value. RS also really taught me how to teach math. I should have done more drill with it though earlier on, because dd's +/- facts are still weak! I have noticed that her multi facts are stronger though, because the CLE has drilled them so well from the beginning! It is almost completely self-teaching so far, which dd loves. I did ask around a lot and check the samples of later grades, and everyone says it continues to be good for self-teaching (not that I don't help her, but she can do a lot of it on her own.) The flash card system is fantastic, PLUS they do a speed drill every day! Dd is not forgetting what she learned because they review it constantly. They introduce things gently, not in big bites. I think CLE is like a combo of Saxon and Horizon, slightly behind level of Horizons (which is pretty advanced.) I like the way they intro the multi facts-zeros, then ones, then 10s, then 2s, etc. It sets them up for success. My ONLY beef is I wish it were a little better with mental math-I think RS and BJU, and even parts of Saxon are better at incorporating the WHY behind the formulas. I really don't want dc to just learn "formulaic" math-it is important to me that they understand why they're doing what they're doing. I also think the word problems are a bit simplistic, so we add in Evan Moor Daily Word Problems for the grade level, which is just one problem per day but they make you think more.

I am doing RSA with ds5, and plan to do RS B, starting to add in CLE1 partway thru B. I will also do more drill with him during RSA than I did with dd. I'm glad she was the guinea pig and that I looked into all the programs so it will be easier with ds. He is more math-oriented than her anyway, so it should be easier. There is nothing wrong with doing CLE only from the beginning-it is thorough. I just personally like some things about RS that I want them not to miss.

I should also add that of all the programs, dd LOVES CLE! Be sure to get the Sunrise edition.

ETA: CLE would not be good for a dc who is frustrated by a spiral approach with constant review. It is like Horizons in that you see a couple problems from each thing you've done in previous chapters EVERY day. It is a portion of new, some drill, and the rest of the lesson is review. I think this may drive some kids crazy that don't want or need the review.

I also forgot to add that I also own the first couple yrs of Singapore, which I laid out side by side with RS, and RS covered everything Singapore did, and in a similar way (part-whole circles, etc.), but with much more hand-holding for the teacher. RS was a bit slower in introduction of some topics than Singapore (ie-multiplication). I also have the whole thing of Miquon math, and I found the same thing with that-RS covered the topics in a way that was much easier to teach for me. Miquon would be great for someone who is very comfortable with teaching math and doesn't mind a more loosely structured math. I can try to answer any questions, if anyone has any!

Edited by HappyGrace
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I am always amazed what DD remembers from Saxon. It does repeat, but she really has picked up all sorts of math vocabulary (pattern, graph, pictograph, etc.). The manipulatives are the best too.

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My ONLY beef is I wish it were a little better with mental math-I think RS and BJU, and even parts of Saxon are better at incorporating the WHY behind the formulas. I really don't want dc to just learn "formulaic" math-it is important to me that they understand why they're doing what they're doing. I also think the word problems are a bit simplistic, so we add in Evan Moor Daily Word Problems for the grade level, which is just one problem per day but they make you think more.

This is something that I've been concerned about as well. Just learning the formulaic math and not the mental/why behind it. I read somewhere on here that a mom uses R&S through 4th grade for mastery and knowing facts/processes down cold and then taking her children back through Singapore for the mental/conceptual component. I believe that CLE would offer the same mastery of facts because of the built in drill. I'm planning on doing the same with my DD, except using CLE through 4th and then spending some time w/ Singapore.

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