s/o Teaching Innocent Tween/Teen Girls Defense Mechanisms

[Katy]

On the topic of 12 year olds in modest dresses who just look a little *too* good, or too old...

 

 

How do you teach your daughters defense mechanisms when it comes to men? My parents were really good at a lot of things, but this particular topic wasn't one of them.

 

Athol Kay's Blog (Mostly about married teA, NOT SAFE FOR WORK) had this thread a couple of weeks ago about Child Beauty Pageants and at the end sort of got into teaching pretty girls to be rude to men who made advances to them.

 

The idea of teaching boundaries is one thing, but teaching girls to be rude seems.... wrong??? idk. Please tell me what your thoughts are on this?

[Parrothead]

Men coming on to young (or any age) ladies who have already said "No, thank you," deserve all the rude they get. Along with knee in the groin if need be.

[jenangelcat]

The biggest thing is to teach them that rapists are often people they know and are already fooling around with.

 

The more important thing is to teach boys not to rape. It's not consent until someone actually says yes and then consent is removed the minute someone says no.

[Chris in VA]

On a lighter note, my girlfriend at college had a perfect defense mechanism against guys hitting on her at bars--she'd pick her nose.

[Katy]

On a lighter note, my girlfriend at college had a perfect defense mechanism against guys hitting on her at bars--she'd pick her nose.

 

 

hahahahaha :lol: I wonder why I never thought of that.

[Katy]

I dont even know what to say. Of course its perfectly ok to be rude to someone making unwanted unwelcome advances.

 

But at the same time I dont think most girls need to be taught defense against "men".

 

Im sort of baffled here.

 

I think you must have led a much more sheltered life than I have.

[Mimm]

I looked older through my younger teens and it led to some uncomfortable situations that my parents didn't even attempt to prepare me for. I hurt the feelings of a couple teen boys simply from not knowing what to say and was very flustered at the attentions of some older men. (Older than me... like being hit on by someone in their late 20s who didn't realize I was 14.) I do think coaching girls to be gracious but firm in turning down unwanted attention is important. And to recognize when someone simply isn't getting the message and how they need to be very clear and yes, even rude. After all, it's very rude to keep pressuring a girl when she's tried to brush you off politely.

[kubiac]

But at the same time I dont think most girls need to be taught defense against "men".

 

 

I grew up in a big city, and the street harassment from older teenagers and full-grown men began when I was about 10 years old. I wish I'd had the slightest idea how to react when it was scary, and a more realistic awareness of what the hell was going on when it later began to seem flattering.

 

I grew up sheltered and I've always been a bit of a social-emotional late bloomer, and I was like a lamb to slaughter. It wasn't something I would have dreamed of asking or telling my parents about and so I was on my own.

[Karen in CO]

Men coming on to young (or any age) ladies who have already said "No, thank you," deserve all the rude they get. Along with knee in the groin if need be.

Exactly.

I have taught my girls from a very small age that when they say "no," that they have the right to expect whatever it is to stop. I never suggest they hug relatives. I try really hard to make sure they learn to speak up for themselves and to believe that they have rights.

 

I've also worked hard with my older dd to keep communication open. She's told me about confused feelings she's had about boys and their comments and looks. We talk about body image and self-awareness and self-consciousness. I don't want them feeling flattered by every jerk that that tells them they have pretty eyes. I want them to judge their own value for themselves and not by what others say.

 

I also send them to weekly judo classes where they throw around and get thrown around by boys so they will feel very confident in their own strength and physical power if they ever need to reinforce a "no" with a well-placed knee.

[angela in ohio]

I think you must have led a much more sheltered life than I have.

 

Ditto.

 

I've been talking to my girls about this since they were about age 12. I've explained it to dh, and he backs me up. A very small percentage of grown men are just disgusting perverts. Most women I know, no matter how attractive they are considered or what their upbringing, have several stories about inappropriate advances by much older men. I didn't know what to do about such things at that age, and I want my dds to be prepared. They see their loving gentleman of a father and some lovely, well-raised respectful boys they know, and so I don't worry that it will warp them against men in general. Instead, I think it helps them to know the difference and not hold the actions of a few against men in general.

 

I don't think men pick girls out because they are particularly beautiful. I think they look for weak targets.

 

Like pp, we work on open communications. I've drilled into their heads that it is the *men* who should be ashamed, and that they can tell me anything. So far the only stories have been about refusing respectful advances by good boys, but I'm glad to know they are telling me.

 

I'm feeling pretty confident that they will make good choices about men in general, because they have a daddy who tells them how valuable they are every day, and they see a respectful relationship modeled in many marriages in their lives.

Edited July 27, 2012 by angela in ohio

[Catwoman]

On the topic of 12 year olds in modest dresses who just look a little *too* good, or too old...

 

 

Perhaps reminding your dd to mention to any older boy or man that, "You know I'm 12 years old, right?" might be helpful. I would think that the vast majority of men who hit on too-young girls are assuming that the girl is considerably older than 12, so reminding them of her age would eliminate a lot of problems.

 

If a man is fine with the idea that she's only 12, well, then I think some major (and LOUD) rudeness may very well be in order, because at that point, he's not a guy who made an innocent misjudgment; he's a pervert.

[Katy]

I looked older through my younger teens and it led to some uncomfortable situations that my parents didn't even attempt to prepare me for. I hurt the feelings of a couple teen boys simply from not knowing what to say and was very flustered at the attentions of some older men. (Older than me... like being hit on by someone in their late 20s who didn't realize I was 14.) I do think coaching girls to be gracious but firm in turning down unwanted attention is important. And to recognize when someone simply isn't getting the message and how they need to be very clear and yes, even rude. After all, it's very rude to keep pressuring a girl when she's tried to brush you off politely.

 

I was like this too...

 

I grew up in a big city, and the street harassment from older teenagers and full-grown men began when I was about 10 years old. I wish I'd had the slightest idea how to react when it was scary, and a more realistic awareness of what the hell was going on when it later began to seem flattering.

 

I grew up sheltered and I've always been a bit of a social-emotional late bloomer, and I was like a lamb to slaughter. It wasn't something I would have dreamed of asking or telling my parents about and so I was on my own.

 

Yeah, I didn't have the slightest idea how to deal with it either, and at the time my parents were so overwhelmed with other issues that I never brought things to them.

 

 

Exactly.

I have taught my girls from a very small age that when they say "no," that they have the right to expect whatever it is to stop. I never suggest they hug relatives. I try really hard to make sure they learn to speak up for themselves and to believe that they have rights.

 

I've also worked hard with my older dd to keep communication open. She's told me about confused feelings she's had about boys and their comments and looks. We talk about body image and self-awareness and self-consciousness. I don't want them feeling flattered by every jerk that that tells them they have pretty eyes. I want them to judge their own value for themselves and not by what others say.

 

I also send them to weekly judo classes where they throw around and get thrown around by boys so they will feel very confident in their own strength and physical power if they ever need to reinforce a "no" with a well-placed knee.

 

Martial arts does seem like a good idea. Sounds like you're teaching very good boundaries. :001_smile:

 

Ditto.

 

I've been talking to my girls about this since they were about age 12. I've explained it to dh, and he backs me up. A very small percentage of grown men are just disgusting perverts. Most women I know, no matter how attractive they are considered or what their upbringing, have several stories about inappropriate advances by much older men. I didn't know what to do about such things at that age, and I want my dds to be prepared. They see their loving gentleman of a father and some lovely, well-raised respectful boys they know, and so I don't worry that it will warp them against men in general. Instead, I think it helps them to know the difference and not hold the actions of a few against men in general.

 

I don't think men pick girls out because they are particularly beautiful. I think they look for weak targets.

 

Like pp, we work on open communications. I've drilled into their heads that it is the *men* who should be ashamed, and that they can tell me anything. So far the only stories have been about refusing respectful advances by good boys, but I'm glad to know they are telling me.

 

I'm feeling pretty confident that they will make good choices about men in general, because they have a daddy who tells them how valuable they are every day, and they see a respectful relationship modeled in many marriages in their lives.

 

I think you're right, and especially in cities, a certain percentage of disgusting perverts are more open about it.

 

Perhaps reminding your dd to mention to any older boy or man that, "You know I'm 12 years old, right?" might be helpful. I would think that the vast majority of men who hit on too-young girls are assuming that the girl is considerably older than 12, so reminding them of her age would eliminate a lot of problems.

 

If a man is fine with the idea that she's only 12, well, then I think some major (and LOUD) rudeness may very well be in order, because at that point, he's not a guy who made an innocent misjudgment; he's a pervert.

 

This is a good idea.

 

Thanks everyone!

[LibraryLover]

What sort of men do you mean? Nervous teen boys at weddings, or reform Bat Mitzvah parties asking your dd to dance? My dds know they can say, "No thanks", and have that be the end of it. They can also say yes to group dances...where a circle of boys and girls just dance to pop music. That seems safe to me. I did once watch a 14 year old boy try to 'pick up' my 13 yr old dd at a gathering at an Aunt's home. Nothing special going on, not a wedding or fancy party, no music, just dinner and chit chat. She was totally cool. "I don't date. I only go to the movies with my siblings or parents, or with groups of friends."

 

If she were 16, I'm sure she'd say "I am not allowed to date" to this particular boy. She said, "He thinks he's this braniac, but I could tell he pushing his 'intelligence'. <insert her eyes rolling> He just wanted to talk about how smart he was. He really wasn't that smart. Who told him he was so smart? Did he think I was impressed with him because I was a hser?"

 

She totally cracked me up with that.

 

My oldest dd is a master at breaking eye contact, and leaving the scene. She does it well.

 

Are you asking about young women in danger? A person who means to harm is the greatest danger and evil.

 

My sister (10 years younger than I), says that women going out together watch out for each other. On many occassions they have asked to see the licenses of men trying to come on to one of them, or trying to seperate them from the group. They have even written down pertintent info. Although, asking for an ID is enough to put good men on notice. Bad men looose interest. Most men are decent.

Edited July 28, 2012 by LibraryLover

[MomatHWTK]

I still remember an adult man who approached me at the mall when I was there with friends- not sure if a parent had brought us or if I was over 16 and drove myself. I had NO IDEA how to handle a man complimenting me on my body. Gah!

 

So, I will probably be a little more proactive with my own DD who is looking to have inherited the same shape. (Note- That shape gave out several years ago on this model so I no longer have to worry about myself.)

[Parrothead]

Im not sheltered and I dont think "men" are a group that I need to teach my dd to be afraid of.

 

 

Im a little offended on behalf of men here.

 

I do think there are a lot of ways you can protect yourself against creeps. But Im not sure picking your nose in a bar is a wise choice. If you are old enough to hang out in a bar you are certainly old enough to know other ways of staving off unwanted attention.

Only the OP is talking about children,. not young ladies in a bar.

 

And it is hard to stave off unwanted attention when unscrupulous persons drop a mickey in a drink. Sometimes it takes more than a simple "no".

[Dory]

I grew up in a big city, and the street harassment from older teenagers and full-grown men began when I was about 10 years old. I wish I'd had the slightest idea how to react when it was scary, and a more realistic awareness of what the hell was going on when it later began to seem flattering.

 

I grew up in a small town and had the same problem. Only with mine, my lack of knowing an appropriate way to respond usually ended with me in some very unhealthy situations with men much older (actually illegal).

 

Exactly.

I have taught my girls from a very small age that when they say "no," that they have the right to expect whatever it is to stop. I never suggest they hug relatives. I try really hard to make sure they learn to speak up for themselves and to believe that they have rights.

 

I've also worked hard with my older dd to keep communication open. She's told me about confused feelings she's had about boys and their comments and looks. We talk about body image and self-awareness and self-consciousness. I don't want them feeling flattered by every jerk that that tells them they have pretty eyes. I want them to judge their own value for themselves and not by what others say.

 

I also send them to weekly judo classes where they throw around and get thrown around by boys so they will feel very confident in their own strength and physical power if they ever need to reinforce a "no" with a well-placed knee.

 

This is about what I do too.

 

Only the OP is talking about children,. not young ladies in a bar.

 

And it is hard to stave off unwanted attention when unscrupulous persons drop a mickey in a drink. Sometimes it takes more than a simple "no".

 

:iagree:

[I talk to the trees]

Perhaps reminding your dd to mention to any older boy or man that, "You know I'm 12 years old, right?" might be helpful. I would think that the vast majority of men who hit on too-young girls are assuming that the girl is considerably older than 12, so reminding them of her age would eliminate a lot of problems.

 

If a man is fine with the idea that she's only 12, well, then I think some major (and LOUD) rudeness may very well be in order, because at that point, he's not a guy who made an innocent misjudgment; he's a pervert.

 

:iagree:especially with the bold bit.

[Dory]

The OP is not the only post on this thread worthy of reply.:)

 

 

Where are your young ladies going that this is a big problem? My parents were strict about certain environments. For example, there was no wandering the mall allowed.

 

I agree with library lover.

 

Is bible camp an ok place for kids to be in your mind? That's where I had one of the perverts hit on me. Actually he went well beyond hitting on me.

[mommymilkies]

Men coming on to young (or any age) ladies who have already said "No, thank you," deserve all the rude they get. Along with knee in the groin if need be.

 

:iagree: I teach my kids along the Protecting the Gift line, and they take aikido. My girls can take down full grown men. I am also never away from them where this can happen, but in rare cases that I am, I have taught them what to do.

[stripe]

I grew up in a big city, and the street harassment from older teenagers and full-grown men began when I was about 10 years old. I wish I'd had the slightest idea how to react when it was scary, and a more realistic awareness of what the hell was going on when it later began to seem flattering.

 

I grew up sheltered and I've always been a bit of a social-emotional late bloomer, and I was like a lamb to slaughter. It wasn't something I would have dreamed of asking or telling my parents about and so I was on my own.

 

I remember a creepy old man flirting with me in a grocery store when I was 5.

 

I also remember someone yelling "How much?" out the window when I was outside a bus station, age ten, wearing regular clothes after coming home from school.

 

When I was in college, there was a crazy homeless guy who used to scream "Nice headlights!" at me. He also stationed himself outside my apartment building howling (singing?) for a while but then went away and I never saw him again.

 

And those are just strangers!

 

I've also had several encounters with naked men while outside, minding my own business.

 

So unfortunately, it is an issue, and dealing with men/boys one knows is a lot more complicated for a lot of young women. It's embarassing to tell someone to stop when you know them, but a stranger saying something would elicit a more immediate response of fury. That's important to consider too.

[Artichoke]

Where are your young ladies going that this is a big problem? My parents were strict about certain environments. For example, there was no wandering the mall allowed.

 

For several years I coached JV cheerleading, and it didn't matter where we went or how they were dressed, they almost always attracted male attention. Usually a quick word that they were only fourteen would take care of the approaches. There wasn't a need to be rude but thankfully we never had a guy linger once he knew they were so young. Now the teenage boys;those were a whole other story. :)

[Katy]

:iagree: I teach my kids along the Protecting the Gift line, and they take aikido. My girls can take down full grown men. I am also never away from them where this can happen, but in rare cases that I am, I have taught them what to do.

 

Thanks, I had never heard of that book before. My library has it on the shelf, I'm going to get it today.

[Starr]

This happens in safe places. Like the doctors you work with as a young nurse. It isn't pleasant. Learning how to handle people you work with (if you want to keep your job) is different from how you handle someone you don't know in a bar. It's not right, it's not fair and it happens.

[Katy]

I remember a creepy old man flirting with me in a grocery store when I was 5.

 

I also remember someone yelling "How much?" out the window when I was outside a bus station, age ten, wearing regular clothes after coming home from school.

 

When I was in college, there was a crazy homeless guy who used to scream "Nice headlights!" at me. He also stationed himself outside my apartment building howling (singing?) for a while but then went away and I never saw him again.

 

And those are just strangers!

 

I've also had several encounters with naked men while outside, minding my own business.

 

So unfortunately, it is an issue, and dealing with men/boys one knows is a lot more complicated for a lot of young women. It's embarassing to tell someone to stop when you know them, but a stranger saying something would elicit a more immediate response of fury. That's important to consider too.

 

I had many, many similar experiences, starting at age 9 when I went to a baseball game with my parents. I went alone (but in their sight) to get something like a box of crackerjacks and got propositioned by an old drunk guy on the way back. This is exactly what I'm concerned about. In my case, in the most dangerous situation I was riding my bike to my grandparents house in a very nice neighborhood, my mom was a few blocks behind me in the car, with smaller kids who might not bike that far well. A car started circling me. Luckily, a cop drove by, I waved, and the circler left. A week later the same guy (or at least same description, same car) tried to kidnap two 6th graders from a middle school. The person was never caught. Several years later a little girl was killed, and it turned out she had been attacked, and her convicted killer looked exactly like the guy. I can never be certain it was the same person, but my instinct says it was.

 

Except for the guy circling my bike with his car, and a few other creepy things that happened as an adult, that inspired me to call the cops, I never told anyone anything. I just didn't know what to do with that information. I don't want that for my DC.

[Dory]

No Bible camp is always a bad idea IMO. Id never send a kid there. *snort*

 

Look I have two boys ages 12 and 15. I worry about them at sports and scout camp too. Its not just men and girls.

 

No it's not just men and girls. You insinuated though, that the girls were wandering in places that they shouldn't or they wouldn't be getting the unwanted attention. At least that's what I was understanding you to mean.

 

It also isn't always tween and teen girls. I had problems long before I hit puberty.

[Katy]

But the OP is talking about kids.

 

Im confused.

 

Are we talking about perverts who are trying to molest children? Or cat calls on the street? Or guys eying a girl who may be younger than she thinks? Or what?

 

I dont know how to respond bc these all call for different approaches.:confused:

 

I'm talking about all of these situations.

[Mimm]

But the OP is talking about kids.

 

Im confused.

 

Are we talking about perverts who are trying to molest children? Or cat calls on the street? Or guys eying a girl who may be younger than she thinks? Or what?

 

I dont know how to respond bc these all call for different approaches.:confused:

 

Are we required to make different threads to talk about each situation. What's so confusing about the conversation wandering to different scenarios that need to be handled differently?

[mommymilkies]

Thanks, I had never heard of that book before. My library has it on the shelf, I'm going to get it today.

 

It's wonderful. Very eye opening.

[MomatHWTK]

I have had enough life experience to have encountered a few men behaving badly. So, I have started by teaching my DD the boundaries of her body. Who touches, who sees, who comments are up to her to choose. Next we've discuss self-defense, how to run, how to seek help in cases of an actual criminal.

 

The follow up with be the second level of self-defense, how to physically stop an improper advance. As she matures, I'll teach her to recognize some of the words and moves that a unscrupulous person may use to put her in a compromising position. (i.e. He's probably not really interested in showing you his art collection.) Of course, I'm an equal opportunity insulter, so should a woman attempt any of those advances the same lessons would apply (except of course some of the physical defenses).

 

If I catch my sons behaving badly, they will certainly get a few lessons from their momma as well!

Edited July 28, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[stripe]

Well for the purpose of clarity, which this thread lacks, it would be helpful to distinguish what situation is at hand.

 

I cant even figure out what we are discussing at this point- be it molestation at church camp (criminal!) or cat calls on the street (just annoying) or creepy leering men at the mall.

 

Or classmates making inappopriate comments/ touching?