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What would you like to see in a CM/Classical curriculum?


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Would anyone please share with me some important points they would like to see covered in a prepared Charlotte Mason/Classical style curriculum?

 

I am (slowly) working towards this, but would love some feedback about what others would find important to be included.

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hmmm ... I will be thinking on this ...

 

Offhand, I am assuming the standard elements of CM are covered. What would help me enormously would be truly ecumenical materials, or ecumenical alternatives, in all subjects. By ecumenical I mean readings and materials that are usable by persons of all faiths, including secular faiths such as secular humanism.

 

This might include some background or ideas for teaching classics, such as Pilgrim's Progress, that are also Christian; for reading the KJV to children who are not exposed to the Bible stories in their daily lives and, esp. when young, may not be prepared for the violence and complex morality in the Old Testament. For instance, a CM/Classical program that helped schedule readings from the Wisdom books and from Jesus' parables, esp. in the early years, would be so valuable to me. If it could include wisdom literature from other cultures, that would be such a help.

 

For history, the option of a history that starts the story about 15 billion years or so would be great. I am reading sections from K12's Human Odyssey to my 7-year-old; this is really a fascinating series, and to my mind qualifies as living literature.

 

For science readings, we are unable to use materials that proclaim that Nature can be used to study God. To be blunt, I find this idolatrous; though I know many disagree, and I am not judging this; however, I can't in good conscience teach such a view. Also some of the older texts have explained some natural disasters in terms of the wrath of God, which I find unacceptable. There are some wonderful living science books -- one I'm working with now is Margaret Morley's Seed-Babies, which is nifty; and there are H.A. Rey's Constellation books for Astronomy; &c. -- that meet the bill and often do not deal with ages of the universe & evolution & other controversial topics.

 

For artist and composer study, I like SCM's idea of working from a book of images by an artist, or a CD of compositions, with some latitude of selecting the images that resonate with the family. But it might be better to have specific selections.

 

Also, if scheduling sheets are provided, space(s) to note each week what trait(s) are being focused on would be helpful, to keep this in mind.

 

Finally, including some restorative and encouraging reading for mama would be appreciated very much! Maybe selections from Charlotte's writings? and other inspiring quotes ... again, ecumenical -- so if a particularly Christian piece is used, maybe another selection could have a Buddhist, secular humanist, or other perspective. Perhaps this is asking too much, but it would be so encouraging to have a little reading or quote each week on the work of growing & educating our little ones.

 

thank you for asking this ... I will think more on it. Blessings,

ana

Edited by serendipitous journey
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I was intending on keeping the curriculum secular but easily adapted for those who would like to add religion. I know this may make the curriculum not as appealing for some Christian CM/Classical users who like having the Bible integrated into all subjects, but I don't feel prepared to add this component for many reasons. I would, however, leave the schedule open with a time slot for religion which could be filled by secular homeschoolers in whatever way they choose. I'll list some books as optional because they are not secular, but these would not affect the overall curriculum for that level.

 

...I could create an optional study of all religions that could be spread out over the years. I've been trying to create something that pays attention to other cultures, so some of this is built into it already.

 

...Sorry, these thoughts are rather scattered as I'm thinking as I type...

 

Virtues will be integrated throughout the curriculum with some emphasis on this falling under the citizenship category. I would mark (as well as I can...others could offer me notice in this area if they'd like) as many books that are included with notice of any offense they may cause, although the overwhelming majority will be chosen not to cause offense. These few books, of course, would not affect the curriculum for that level. (For example, some secular homeschoolers may prefer to skip Pilgrim's Progress and Catholics may prefer to skip Fierce Wars and Faithful Loves.)

Edited by Kfamily
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Authentic CM technique paired with modern living books.

 

Yes to secular with a side of religious/cultural study.

 

A focus on family learning as "an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

Book choices at varying levels for those of us who keep out kids together for the content subjects.

 

Real handicrafts. No paper, throw-away crafts.

 

I would love to see something that helps to instill and build good habits. I do not know how you could execute that but I personally feel that poor habits are the biggest reason people feel a CM education is beyond their ability to maintain. Maybe daily or weekly focus areas for the HS parent to reflect on? Maybe specific ideas to incorporate with the kids that would come regularly throughout the year to have a sort of snowball effect for increasing good habits and relative comfort with a CM lifestyle as the year progresses?

 

If I think of anything else, I will post again.

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Kfamily, do you have a copy of When Children Love to Learn? If so, I want history to be exactly as Jack Beckman describes it in the last paragraph of p. 164. :tongue_smilie: (No, really, I am serious...)

 

And yes to art prints being provided. I want 6 artists per year, with 6 works studied per artists.

 

Get crackin'! :D

 

Now you have me curious....what does he say? :)

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Authentic CM technique paired with modern living books.

 

Yes to secular with a side of religious/cultural study.

 

A focus on family learning as "an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

Book choices at varying levels for those of us who keep out kids together for the content subjects.

 

Real handicrafts. No paper, throw-away crafts.

 

I would love to see something that helps to instill and build good habits. I do not know how you could execute that but I personally feel that poor habits are the biggest reason people feel a CM education is beyond their ability to maintain. Maybe daily or weekly focus areas for the HS parent to reflect on? Maybe specific ideas to incorporate with the kids that would come regularly throughout the year to have a sort of snowball effect for increasing good habits and relative comfort with a CM lifestyle as the year progresses?

 

If I think of anything else, I will post again.

 

:iagree:

 

The more I've learned and read of CM and her various followers, the more I really like it. The problem for me has been that it's so downright old-fashioned - the writing style of the books, both about the philosophy and many of the original "living books" is just not for me. Ambleside and some of the other CM curricula I've seen are really not for me because of those reasons, but I feel like the philosophical kernel there of living books, books with voice, forming good habits, studying nature, being outside in the early years, narrations, etc. etc. are so strong and seeing an updated, modern feeling curriculum that does this would be really nice. Even just a modern style book laying out CM as a curriculum in the style of TWTM would be nice.

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Now you have me curious....what does he say? :)

 

Ooh phooey! I knew someone would ask. :lol: I didn't type it all out because my laptop's video card is kaput and DH took his to work, leaving me with just my li'l old' phone to communicate with you all. :nopity:

 

Here is part, the main point, which represents his opinion that history should be "'the unifying discipline of choice' due to our belief that all aspects of life fit under its broad sweep."

 

"...as the student ponders the Renaissance, she will be challenged by the works of Donatello and Titian (art), the thoughts of da Vinci (science, medicine, technology), and the words of Petrarch (poetry). Thus, we employed a learning methodology that was history-driven and thematic in nature."

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Even just a modern style book laying out CM as a curriculum in the style of TWTM would be nice.

 

See if your library has When Children Love to Learn! It was a breath of fresh air for me!

 

"We can also fit in with our historical period--no need to try to make school or home turn back the clock. It would be a disservice to children to bring them up as Victorians with a misty idea that they'll live in a rose-covered cottage in a friendly, safe village, for instance.

 

We were told to be 'in the world, but not of the world.' Charlotte Mason thought that schools and educational programs had a duty to keep up with the thinking of their times. No use fighting battles fifty years old! What do these children face today? What will they face tomorrow?....It was intrinsic to her philosophy that a curriculum would stay relevant to a child's background and up to date while not ditching old treasures."

 

"People like Charlotte Mason are rare and vital. They contribute both stability and community as they maintain the clear infrastructure of truth in their work; yet life bubbles up in them with freshness. Their response to actual life and persons creates a relevance and newness to their work without sacrificing the roots. This approach contrasts with a more usual trend toward a deadening legalism that squeezes out new ideas.

 

She pointed out the limitations of a set curriculum plan as well as is value. Every year new books are published, and they need to be considered. Children in various countries benefit by some of the same books and yet need others that relate to their own culture and prepare them for life in it."

 

Now just get the book cuz my fingers r tired! :lol:

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I won't say your history cycle has to be 4 years (it could be 5 or 6), but one of the things I don't like about AO (going from memory here) is my perception that such a short time is spent on ancients and then it drags out SO long the 1700s and 1800s, and then again seems to whip through modern quickly.

 

One thing that I didn't like about a boxed-CM program we tried was ALL the copywork. It was joy-killing.

 

I don't know the appropriate "CM" answer to this... but I have yet to figure out how to develop skills, particularly writing skills on a CM path. My oldest has long been sick of written narrations and I have struggled taking him into other kinds of writing. I might want the opposite of Alte Veste Academy - maybe I want the older books with more updated methods for writing, LOL. Actually it's not so much that I have to have older books, but I want books that engage. For several years we had a pattern of stretching ourselves with challenging, engaging input, but our output skills lagged behind. I still don't know the best way to close the gap.

 

Another thing is I don't want too much information that I have to weed through. With 5 kids, I need open and go as much as possible. I know it sounds anti-classical but I really don't have time to think a lot during the school day. There's just too much to do.

 

Lastly, I love the idea of a prepared music and art resource. Was it the Home Education Tutor that did that (I might have that name wrong)?.... I remember being hugely disappointed in the quality of the music - otherwise it would have been great.

 

P.S. Some of my thoughts may just be our own pulling away from CM, so feel free to ignore!

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I won't say your history cycle has to be 4 years (it could be 5 or 6), but one of the things I don't like about AO (going from memory here) is my perception that such a short time is spent on ancients and then it drags out SO long the 1700s and 1800s, and then again seems to whip through modern quickly.

 

One thing that I didn't like about a boxed-CM program we tried was ALL the copywork. It was joy-killing.

 

I don't know the appropriate "CM" answer to this... but I have yet to figure out how to develop skills, particularly writing skills on a CM path. My oldest has long been sick of written narrations and I have struggled taking him into other kinds of writing. I might want the opposite of Alte Veste Academy - maybe I want the older books with more updated methods for writing, LOL. Actually it's not so much that I have to have older books, but I want books that engage. For several years we had a pattern of stretching ourselves with challenging, engaging input, but our output skills lagged behind. I still don't know the best way to close the gap.

 

Another thing is I don't want too much information that I have to weed through. With 5 kids, I need open and go as much as possible. I know it sounds anti-classical but I really don't have time to think a lot during the school day. There's just too much to do.

 

Lastly, I love the idea of a prepared music and art resource. Was it the Home Education Tutor that did that (I might have that name wrong)?.... I remember being hugely disappointed in the quality of the music - otherwise it would have been great.

 

P.S. Some of my thoughts may just be our own pulling away from CM, so feel free to ignore!

 

Well, in fairness, I think CM was wrong on reading and spelling, and we have gone another way for science and that won't change even if Kfamily's CM curriculum is perfectly lovely. I do believe in copywork/narration/dictation but we add to that as well, to allow for more creativity and variety.

 

Maybe the best idea is to seamlessly integrate all the various subjects while simultaneously making it flexible enough that users can take what they like and leave what they don't of CM methods without losing the overall benefits of the program.

 

Easy-peasy, right!? :lol:

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We do half our year before winter break and half after winter break. Years that are divided into trimesters stink, because the middle trimester is split in two. So, one thing that I strongly prefer is quarters over trimesters. I would really like eight weeks and an exam week to make a 9 week quarter. I also like that to divide my composer, artist, and poet studies. So, 4 of each in a year.

 

I am very happy with the CM-ish/ classical-ish work that we will be doing this year. I created a lesson plan/ core book that seems to be working well. I turned a word doc to landscape, let my little man pick a background color, typed The Well-Nourished Mind across the top, underneath this I typed Overview of Weekly Topics for Recreation, Recitation, and Reproduction, and inserted 6 text boxes. I like this style of Guide.

 

Text box 1 is narrow and runs about 2/3 of the page with the words artist, composer, poet, life skills/ handicraft, nature walk, and unstructured play/ masterly inactivity. Text box 2 is wide and also runs 2/3 of the page. It has space for memory work in English grammar, cultural geography, political geography, science, Latin, and Farsi. Running underneath and the length of boxes 1 and 2, box 3 goes to the bottom of the page and is my space for dictation. Box 4 begins at the top runs 3/4 of the way to the bottom and is where I will place the poem that the little man is working to memorize. Box 5 is in the little space below box 4 and has space for the title of the literature book he will be working on with room underneath to check off 2 days of narration and 2 days of reading aloud. Text box 6 is narrow and runs the length of the doc for spelling words.

 

Here is a photo of mine on my blog. (click on the actual photo and it will be large enough to see details.) Here is an example of a really pretty core book from another blog. Here is the the Tanglewood core book.

 

Mandy

Edited by Mandy in TN
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With CM implementation is key. You can take the book list off of Ambleside Online and use it in a way that is in opposition to CM philosophy. OTOH, you can use very traditional materials with a CM flair. So, for me rather than a just a materials list I really need to put thought and effort into organizing our day according to CM philosophy.

 

When I scheduled our week, I typed everything we wanted to do into a spreadsheet. I divided everything into subject blocks that I highlighted different colors.

Here is how our topics fell this year: Religious Studies & Mythology (yellow), Memory Work (orange), Fine Arts (red), Language Arts (pink), History & Geography (purple), Math (blue), Science (green), and Foreign Language (gray). I then divided the larger subject blocks into topics that could be manageable in smaller units of time: Fine Arts (red)- Composer & Artist, Violin, Mandolin; Language Arts (pink)- Spelling, Grammar, Composition, Reading, Poetry; History & Geography (purple)- Cultural Geography, Political/ Physical Geography, Mapping; Math (blue)- Exploration, Drill, Lesson; Science (green)- Nature Study, General Science; Foreign Language (gray)- Latin Exposure, Farsi Vocabulary.

 

I looked at old PNEU schedules and the commentaries on these schedules. I thought about how many times in a week I wanted to cover each topic and arranged them in a grid where I tried to disperse the color pattern throughout the day. Although I know that we will not follow this schedule exactly in order or minute, we will probably follow which topics to do on which day. It also made me more aware of dispersing the subject matter. So, I keep in mind that I shouldn't continue with the same subject even if I am not sitting there with the schedule in front of me.

 

 

Because even if you keep a topic short, if you are doing several of the same subject topics in a row, it can feel like more like the day is dragging rather than producing mental alertness. For example, although we do Composer & Artist 4x/ wk, Violin 5x/ wk, and Mandolin 5x/wk, we don’t do them all back-to-back. The same is true for our math and language arts topics. Obviously, I try not to do math- exploration, math- drill, and a math lesson all at the same time.

 

 

HTH-

Mandy

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Would anyone please share with me some important points they would like to see covered in a prepared Charlotte Mason/Classical style curriculum?

 

I am (slowly) working towards this, but would love some feedback about what others would find important to be included.

 

Clear copy work and dictation assignments.

Vocabulary, spelling and grammar lessons based off of the history, literature and science topics read about that week, or quarter.

 

Clear narration instruction, whether it be oral or written narration

Notebooking pages

Clear assessments....I would like to see quarterly exam days

Clear memorization projects

Instructions and prompts for picture study

Updated living science books that come with narration assignments

Same as above for Nature Study

 

These are just off of the top of my head....and the reason I have dropped Ambleside Online after many years of using it....I JUST DO NOT HAVE THE TIME anymore to put it together myself, even though I feel my kids would benefit as much as my olders did by a CM type education.

 

I would LOVE a CM program that is more than just a book list and a schedule where I am put to the test to write my own CM type plans and come up with all of the above by myself

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Clear copy work and dictation assignments.

Vocabulary, spelling and grammar lessons based off of the history, literature and science topics read about that week, or quarter.

 

Clear narration instruction, whether it be oral or written narration

Notebooking pages

Clear assessments....I would like to see quarterly exam days

Clear memorization projects

Instructions and prompts for picture study

Updated living science books that come with narration assignments

Same as above for Nature Study

 

 

These are the sorts of things that might interest me as well. A ready-made copywork book would be something I would really be interested in, for example, based on the things we were reading. Or set out memory work.

 

I would love to see a plan that was really flexible with booklists. I think there are so many great books and so many different kids, that there can and should be a lot of flexibility there. I am generally going to tweak that stuff as a see fit anyway, so if the whole program is built around a list it might be something I wouldn't buy.

 

(THat being said, one of the things I have enjoyed about the AO booklists is I have tried books that I would have thought my kids would not like, and they have really surprised me. So I guess too much flexibility might be bad as well.)

 

I also might be more interested in a modular approach rather than one big box. I have never seen a boxed set of anything that I liked well enough to use, or they always seem to have something that might not be suitable, or it is too complicated to meet the needs of kids who are not at about the same level in all their skills. My dd for example is at level or a bit behind with some of her physical writing skills - she's very neat but doesn't have a ton of stamina. But her reading skills are well above level. Her math is kind of in between. I can't easily use a set directed at one level.

 

 

I agree that a good, clear overview of the basics of CM would be a good idea. The idea of the child as a person, of not getting between the child and the object or text, education as the science of relations, and as an environment, disapline, and life, would be a good start IMO. I don't think people can really get CM without those things.

And if the curriculum could use the term "masterly inactivity" appropriatly, that would be great. It often isn't and it makes me question whether the person who wrote the text really has a good grasp of CM.

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Guest emiddleton

I've decided on Ambleside Online this year - we'll start 1st grade in a month - but these are exactly my issues! I don't mean to use only old materials, but I'm having a hard time finding a curriculum that has the same flavor of CM/classical that is also modern. I've thought that I'd like the AO defectors to write a curriculum as they leave, but I don't know where to find that mailing list.

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:iagree:

 

The more I've learned and read of CM and her various followers, the more I really like it. The problem for me has been that it's so downright old-fashioned - the writing style of the books, both about the philosophy and many of the original "living books" is just not for me. Ambleside and some of the other CM curricula I've seen are really not for me because of those reasons, but I feel like the philosophical kernel there of living books, books with voice, forming good habits, studying nature, being outside in the early years, narrations, etc. etc. are so strong and seeing an updated, modern feeling curriculum that does this would be really nice. Even just a modern style book laying out CM as a curriculum in the style of TWTM would be nice.

 

Wow. This sums it up for me. I sense something I love about CM, but feel very turned off by AO, which is the best purveyor of CM curriculum out there. I want something modern, and a book like TWTM with clear layout, excellent literature-based suggestions, etc. would be amazing. I think there also has to be a way to dig into grammar and spelling at an earlier age than AO suggest, without veering into drill and kill. I love old books, and I think there are many great ones out there, but I don't want to be constantly using google books to find the text I'm "supposed to use."

 

I am eagerly waiting to hear more about this!:bigear:

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You ladies are great! This is so helpful, although with an overwhelming number of ideas to think about carefully.:eek:

I'm in Okinawa...so there is a big time change with this distance. It's Saturday morning here, but I will be reading all of this slowly and will try to respond to all of it better soon.

Edited by Kfamily
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Wow. This sums it up for me. I sense something I love about CM, but feel very turned off by AO, which is the best purveyor of CM curriculum out there. I want something modern, and a book like TWTM with clear layout, excellent literature-based suggestions, etc. would be amazing. I think there also has to be a way to dig into grammar and spelling at an earlier age than AO suggest, without veering into drill and kill. I love old books, and I think there are many great ones out there, but I don't want to be constantly using google books to find the text I'm "supposed to use."

 

I am eagerly waiting to hear more about this!:bigear:

 

Why not use AO as an outline but substitute in different books where you want to? There are a number of booklists from SCM and others with more modern texts as well. It isn't such a tight curriculum that doing so causes problems.

 

I would also look at SCM for their grammar and spelling resources if that's what you want. Or, I used English for the Thoughtful child this year which worked very well as an introduction to LA.

 

A lo of the AO books can be bought though - they are provided online to help keep costs down for those with a budget.

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I've copied and pasted everyones thoughts and ideas and put them all together in one document. This way I can print it out and separate the ideas to better organize all of this.

 

I'll post back to this thread when I've come up with a set of basic goals/objectives.

 

(If anyone else has any more thoughts or ideas....)

 

Thank you!!:001_smile:

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This is just a summary of the ideas shared by everyone so far....

 

 

*Secular but with world culture/religion on the side with some focus on parables/wisdom coming from all cultures

 

*Give history fair time with modern time period and the ancient time period

 

*Real lessons in geography such as compass, latitude, oceans, etc.

 

*Science should have a stonger focus than just nature study with modern living books and narrations to go along with them (Controversial topics can be made optional)

 

*Nature study should not dominate the currriclum and when studied should include narration suggestions

 

*Artist study/Composer study should be ready-to-go with prints/book/cds and should have 4 or 6 per year with prompts for picture study

 

*Handicrafts should be real

 

*Focus on traits, habits and learning atmosphere

 

*Restorative, encouraging quotes for mom

 

*Notebook pages

 

*Vocabulary, grammar, spelling drawn from the books being read

 

*Copywork that is ready-too-go and drawn from the books being read

 

*Clear directions for narrations with some instruction/focus on writing skills that are integrated within the narrations

 

*Memory Work that is ready-to-go

 

*Books/booklists should be flexible with varying levels built in so that subjects can be taught family style

 

*There should be a mixture of modern books with older books but with all books being available and not oop

 

*Modular plans that are written with weekly lessons divided into quarters (9 weeks) with quarter exams included...ready-to-go

 

*Background information about CM and Classical methods should be included and written in a TWTM modern style

 

*Authentic CM methods

 

*Masterly inactivity that is based on real CM research

 

 

WHEW!!! What do you think? Did I summarize this correctly? :lol:

Edited by Kfamily
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I don't think you should avoid evolution or "controversial" science topics in a secular program. If I were buying it, I would expect and WANT them to be there. :001_smile:

 

Yes. I know choosing all or nothing on this issue will be a difficult decision for you, as it will keep some who are stridently for or against teaching evolution from purchasing your program. Honestly though, I don't think you can call your curriculum truly secular if you exclude this teaching. The biggest "aw shucks!" experiences for me as a homeschooler are those where I find a curriculum that would be so close to perfect for me, and would be indeed...if only I were Christian. I am weary of it. That is for sure. I want something that is for me, not one more thing I have to adapt and augment. I have had my fill of that.

 

This is not to rail at you or to be ornery. I just figure you deserve to know that leaving out what many secular people see as elemental and necessary will potentially drive some buyers away.

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I'd want one that was modular - If I wanted the full package, I could get it, but if I just wanted the handiworks, habits and literature it would all work well together as a program (not feel like I was only using a bit of something bigger). BUT it would be very nice if there were modules that covered every aspect of a CM education.

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Options for VSL (visual-spatial learners)!!! in general the CM/classical curricula I've seen are very read-this-vintage-book, copy-these-many-lines. That is akin to torture to my oldest. More visual--living books with pictures, picture books, living science books, documentaries, drawing, art, coloring pages to work on while listening to the less illustrated books, logic/reasoning puzzles, maybe scheduling apps or computer games even--make it modern. I love the CM ideas but all the long read-alouds and tons of copywork (in most subjects--I'm not opposed to some copywork, but not all over) would kill us.

Edited by LittleIzumi
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I think having history not tied in to grade levels would be good. Somewhat like what Milestones Academy does. That way you can choose your grade level, but also pick which time period you want your dc to be studying. It is also easier to combine different ages in history if it is done this way.

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Built in Memory work for the Grammar level students. Complete with flash cards and schedule for review. For example, if they are learning about George Washington, a sentence about Washington. Much like CC memory work, but within context of what you are actually learning. It would include Bible memory and poetry.

 

Beth

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KFamily, your summary was excellent! Thank you for reading the posts and pulling out the main points, and for putting them up: even if you don't get further than making that list, I will have benefited greatly -- I'm bookmarking it and think I may print it out to keep in mind when I plan and when I review our progress ...

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Built in Memory work for the Grammar level students. Complete with flash cards and schedule for review. For example, if they are learning about George Washington, a sentence about Washington. Much like CC memory work, but within context of what you are actually learning. It would include Bible memory and poetry.

 

Beth

 

I'm not sure that I would think of flash cards as a really CM approach.

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