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The most selective colleges have the endowments to make up for any loss of Federal financial aid (only a small fraction of their students even qualify for Pell Grants and such). Run-of-the-mill colleges would need to figure out a way to cut costs or they would have to close their doors.

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The mega rich and highly gifted would be the only one attending.

 

There would be fewer professors needed, so I don't know if their wages would be affected.

 

Class options would start dropping, small private schools would likely close unless they have another way to fund academia (sports, benefactors etc).

 

Degrees would be more specific to the industry. The 'must have a bachelors degree to apply' for a delivery job, would likely go away and more trade schools, internships and 'learn on the job' opportunities would reappear.

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There would be lots of technical schools, beauty schools and for-profit colleges that would go out of business. I believe they receive the majority of their revenues from govt funding.

 

For regular private colleges - some people wouldn't be able to go, but there would be lots that would be just fine (because they have endowments that provide financial aid rather than the government).

 

For regular public colleges - (do you count state aid? they receive a significant state funds) and yes some would not be able to go.

 

Places that are very popular would be fine (ivy league for example), the very very small colleges (less than 1000 students) would probably be hurt.

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They would stop building pretty new buildings. :001_smile: My dad did not have grants and such to go to college, but if he would have actually gone (long story) it would not have cost a great deal compared to the salary he would have made upon exiting. My dh did not qualify for much in gov't aid, but the college wanted him due to grades, his valedictorian status, and so on, so they gave him an almost free ride to school.

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Colleges would have to learn how to economize like the rest of us. Young adults would have to grow up a little faster. New options would be invented for folks who don't graduate high school with tens of thousands of dollars. People wouldn't use college as an excuse to extend government assistance etc.

 

I used student loans, so I can't say I have anything against them. But I was a fairly serious student. I graduated with a lot of debt (which I paid off early). If I had it to do over, I might have gone to a much cheaper law school.

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I'm pretty sure the colleges would just be filled with high-paying foreign students and the mega-rich.

 

I don't know about that.....I can't think of a single one of ds's friends or our relatives, that didn't rely heavily on financial aide/pell grants and such.

 

It may be location based. Here, job loss has hurt the economy severely. I know for a fact that 3 of ds's friends couldn't go to college without pell grants (very poor families-no jobs for teens to pay their own way).

 

 

 

On the other hand dd13 goes to a very expensive private school (she has a scholarship). These families will have no problem paying for college. They are paying more for a year of private elementary school than a year in most colleges, so yeah! they can afford it.

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If the gov't stopped giving loans, more people would apply for loans through the private sector.

 

Ooh, that's a good point. I'll bet a whole new private, for-profit loan industry would spring up quickly. Not quite sure what that would look like, though--I can't see banks being thrilled about giving unsecured loans for tens of thousands of dollars to students, especially in this economy with such uncertain job prospects for new graduates. There would be an opportunity to make money there, though, so I'm sure someone would jump on it.

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I had a discussion about this recently with a friend who speculated that the reason costs continue to rise at colleges is because the colleges feel they can get an unlimited supply of $ from government. I do think that if that was gone they would need to restructure and reduce costs to attract business and survive. Hefty salaries would hopefully be reduced.

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I had a discussion about this recently with a friend who speculated that the reason costs continue to rise at colleges is because the colleges feel they can get an unlimited supply of $ from government. I do think that if that was gone they would need to restructure and reduce costs to attract business and survive. Hefty salaries would hopefully be reduced.

 

Government loans actually aren't unlimited in amount to students. But in the articles that I link below, one points out that since 2005 the government is backing those private education loans.

 

I didn't realize that prior to the mid-to-late '70's, educational loans were eligible to be discharged in bankruptcy. The rationale behind the government loans not being discharged in bankruptcy was that the taxpayers were actually the lenders, so the borrower had a special obligation to them. This was extended to private educational loans, too, and those come from for-profit corporations. In 2005 Bankruptcy Reform, I believe Congress extended government backing to private educational loans.

 

Below is something I just read, link is at the end to the full article.

 

"Risky lending caused private student loan debt to balloon in the past decade, leaving many Americans struggling to pay off loans that they can't afford, a government study says.

 

Private lenders gave out money without considering whether borrowers would repay, then bundled and resold the loans to investors to avoid losing money when students defaulted, according to the study, which is being released Friday.

 

Those practices are closely associated with subprime mortgage lending, which inflated the housing bubble and helped bring about the 2008 financial crisis." http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/07/...rtgage-lending

 

Here's a link to the report the above article was based on: http://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/2...dent-Loans.pdf

 

Also, interesting to me (this is an older article and pretty strong in its opinion):

 

"Bankers are capitalists. They assess the borrower's risk and apply variable interest rates, currently up to about 12 percent and sometimes higher. Why should the U.S. government act as their debt collectors? I thought that bankers wanted the feds out of their affairs.

 

Back in the day, private student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy, just like any other unsecured consumer debt. Many lenders got around that law by issuing loans through nonprofits, which usually kept them out of bankruptcy court.

 

The Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005 straight-out exempted private loans from bankruptcy and from the normal business risk of loan default. Lenders could levy whatever terms they wanted on student and parent borrowers, and threaten them with permanent servitude if they couldn't pay." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_1...rs-like-crooks

 

Great question, OP!

Edited by Violet
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Ooh, that's a good point. I'll bet a whole new private, for-profit loan industry would spring up quickly. Not quite sure what that would look like, though--I can't see banks being thrilled about giving unsecured loans for tens of thousands of dollars to students, especially in this economy with such uncertain job prospects for new graduates. There would be an opportunity to make money there, though, so I'm sure someone would jump on it.

 

Private sector loans are already available. My very limited understanding is that student loans are NOT covered under a bankruptcy.

 

Everything I "know" is from a radio show (Neal Boortz?) earlier in the week. He discussed the possibility that the President could change that particular part of the bankruptcy law, allowing student loans to be folded in with other bankruptcy debt.

 

And there you have it, folks. (:D) Students WOULD be able to claim their loans, so because everyone would be doing it, there would be little deterrent from graduating, then claiming bankruptcy to remove that student debt. Poof.

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More people would get private loans.

 

Right now, people can't get much in federal aid anyway. Some qualify for Pell Grants. Some qualify for subsidized loans (gov't pays the interest while the student is in school). Some qualify for federal work study (student job while in college). Anyone can get federal unsubsidized loans, but the max is $5500 freshman year (goes up a little for later years). That max is the same for subsidized loans too.

 

Needless to say, the above is not all that is needed for almost any private school, but the schools do just fine ($5500 doesn't go far into a $40,000 tuition bill). If you were to pull federal aid, private companies would get more loans. College apps are up considerably - partially due to a higher number of students in the US (population having gone up, but not so many new college openings) and partially due to more foreign students wanting a US education. That's not going to change if federal aid goes away. There might be a really small blip for some schools (perhaps schools who shouldn't still be in business anyway - for profits come to mind) and there may be some students who wouldn't be able to attend due to not qualifying for private loans (and this would only affect community colleges and other state schools as these kids couldn't afford otherwise anyway), but I doubt it's a significant percentage in the overall picture.

 

Private loan companies would probably start charging more.

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Lowering costs wouldn't change it either. I went to a state school. I worked the entire time, but I couldn't even earn half of what it cost in a year.

 

This is not why I asked this question, but my we have been after my oldest child for several years to get a summer job and start saving money for college. She wouldn't do it, and now, as she enters her senior year of high school, she's panicking about paying for college. She finally got a job a few weeks ago but realized that, with our limitation of 12 hours a week once school starts, she will only be able to save $3500 before she starts college. She told me last night, "That's not enough, and you guys won't help me!" I said, "Woah, wait a minute, we told you we would completely pay for community college for two years and then kick in that same amount for the next two years at a university." She scoffed at that amount of money, and I pointed out that when I graduated (16 years ago) it cost $8,000 to attend my alma mater. The cost is now $21,000. In 16 years, the cost has gone up by more than 150%, and wages have actually fallen in that time. College is simply not affordable anymore.

 

Tara

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Ooh, that's a good point. I'll bet a whole new private, for-profit loan industry would spring up quickly.

 

Start up? It's already been there for years. Private loans are the only way people can rack up those huge debt amounts. Federal loans have a reasonable max.

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This is not why I asked this question, but my we have been after my oldest child for several years to get a summer job and start saving money for college. She wouldn't do it, and now, as she enters her senior year of high school, she's panicking about paying for college. She finally got a job a few weeks ago but realized that, with our limitation of 12 hours a week once school starts, she will only be able to save $3500 before she starts college. She told me last night, "That's not enough, and you guys won't help me!" I said, "Woah, wait a minute, we told you we would completely pay for community college for two years and then kick in that same amount for the next two years at a university." She scoffed at that amount of money, and I pointed out that when I graduated (16 years ago) it cost $8,000 to attend my alma mater. The cost is now $21,000. In 16 years, the cost has gone up by more than 150%, and wages have actually fallen in that time. College is simply not affordable anymore.

 

Tara

 

Make sure she checks with her guidance counselor to see if there are other affordable options based upon her stats and such. For my older two guys, going to cc, then a 4 year would have been their most expensive option or equal to other options. They did well with scholarships, both merit based and need-based. For middle son, going to cc first would have severely hindered his desire to go to med school afterward (where cc first is frowned upon).

 

CC first is a good option for many, esp those who don't qualify for scholarships and who are mainly looking for "a" degree (not something specific - specialty - whatever), but there are other options worth looking at before deciding upon one particular route.

 

Of course, pending what one wants to do, cc alone might suffice and ours sure has programs that beat their for-profit counterparts in cost.

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It's already happening, though. I mean, with students now labeled as "dependents" of their parents until 24 (!?!), they can't get loans or grants unless their parents are also broke or dead, or they are married. My brother was finally trying to apply for his first financial aid ever at 23, and I think they gave him like $200 in subsidized loans. :glare: He can get unsubsidized ones, but as he's only allowed to work 20 hours a week during the school year, I don't know how he'd pay on those plus his own expenses.

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They would stop building pretty new buildings. :001_smile:

 

Buildings are typically paid for by alumni donations. That's why you see names on them like "William Gates Computer Science" (a real one at my alma mater even though he never attended the school).

 

The big expense are the professors who are making $$$$ and getting very cushy benefits in exchange for only teaching 1 or 2 classes per term.

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As much as I would love, love, love all 3 of my children to attend my alma mater, it simply isn't even remotely in the budget. I went to a smaller but very respectable Christian college that now cost over $40K per year. My BFF's son will go there next year and will live at home. He has several scholarships, but even with that, his tuition alone will be about $8K. Not too bad for a $40K school, but he will still need a loan.

 

We have told our kids we will pay tuition for the local 4 year college, state school, at under 10K per year. They will need to live at home or pay their own living expenses. Anything above that they will need to cover through their own funds or scholarships. We might even encourage CC first. Now, if they show a bent towards something that the local 4 year school cannot provide, we will see what we can do, but we won't take out more than we can handle easily and we won't encourage them to either.

 

Dawn

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And who is going to lend thousands of dollars to an 18 year old?

 

My guys have gotten quite a few offers in the mail. We haven't needed them so haven't checked into them, but they've arrived. There are many companies offering loans. They give a lower interest rate if there's a co-signer (they state they do anyway), but that just implies a higher rate without one.

 

I don't know the personal finances of kids at school, but based upon what I can deduce, some of them are getting loans without needing their parents to qualify - esp for some of the for profit places. The cost of these places is higher than what they can get with federal loans alone.

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They did well with scholarships, both merit based and need-based.

 

She definitely won't qualify for merit aid. Her grades are ok but her ACT score is absymal (I'm honestly worried about her ability to even be accepted to a university, it's so bad), and has remained so despite taking prep classes and retaking the test.

 

CC first is a good option for many, esp those who don't qualify for scholarships and who are mainly looking for "a" degree (not something specific - specialty - whatever)

 

I know people have a negative opinion of CC, but I honestly don't get why. I went to CC for two years before transferring to a state university and finishing my degree. CC never hindered me, to my knowledge it did not affect my financial aid, and no one would even know I went to CC because my degree says [state] University. I graduated sixth in my class of 450 kids, and I applied (and was accepted to) the state university I eventually graduated from. They gave me a $500 per quarter merit scholarship even though my GPA was a 4.96 and my ACT score was a 31. That's why I went to community college first. It cost me approx. $1,000 per year, including books. The state university's piddly little scholarship wasn't really going to help me.

 

Unless things have changed significantly, I'm not sure why CC is such a bad thing.

 

Tara

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It would take some time, maybe 15-20 years, but colleges would end up being less luxurious, more bare-bones, with larger classes, and probably a lot more online courses as those are cheaper. Costs would go back down. Humanities degrees would become a luxury item rather than normal.

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Start up? It's already been there for years. Private loans are the only way people can rack up those huge debt amounts. Federal loans have a reasonable max.

 

And I've heard many, many predictions that student loans will be the next big breakdown, now that the mortgage situation has imploded.

 

Many for profit schools (like Univ of Phoenix) get people to enroll and then rack up debt. It's like a pyramid scheme. Univ of Phoenix students alone owe nearly $5 billion! A great segment on this was Frontline's College Inc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

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So they can get loans for 20,000 x 4? I have my doubts. And I'll guess the interest rates are insane.

 

Many of the for-profits aren't 4 years.

 

The kids go and end up with loans - or at least they talk about loans, but state they are "worth it." Those who I see a few years later sometimes mention having to pay off their loans when I ask how things are going. Then there are those who never graduated, end up working very low end jobs, and still will talk about loan payments. In both cases, I assume the loan payments are rather significant if they bring them up in a casual conversation - granted we know each other more than strangers - but we're not best friends.

 

I can only imagine what the interest rates are.

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And I've heard many, many predictions that student loans will be the next big breakdown, now that the mortgage situation has imploded.

 

Many for profit schools (like Univ of Phoenix) get people to enroll and then rack up debt. It's like a pyramid scheme. Univ of Phoenix students alone owe nearly $5 billion! A great segment on this was Frontline's College Inc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

 

It's possible. It's mainly the for profit schools that are the problem, followed by 2 year schools. The default rate on traditional 4 year schools is quite low and the average debt is reasonable with those places too.

 

It would be nice if something could be done to fix the for profit debt problem.

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I know people have a negative opinion of CC, but I honestly don't get why. <snip>

 

Unless things have changed significantly, I'm not sure why CC is such a bad thing.

 

Tara

 

In the case of my oldest, he wants a STEM major and the community college doesn't offer any math classes he hasn't taken in high school.

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The original question was what would happen if the government had no hand in the student loan business. The reason loans are not dischargeable is because the government has a hand in it. I assume that may no longer be the case if the government no longer has anything to do with it and therefore what bank would take that kind of risk for that kind of money? We are not talking about a few thousand dollars.

 

But you're assuming something that is not accurate. There are plenty of private loans out there currently. They are not dischargeable. This was enacted by Congress in 1977 first to protect federal loans, later covering all lenders. Lenders now have the expectation of getting repaid.

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And that would close a lot of doors for a lot of people. My parents could not have gotten a loan. And who is going to lend thousands of dollars to an 18 year old?

 

A lot has changed since your parents went to school. Credit is a lot easier to get. People can do a lot online. Books can be purchased used or borrowed from a library. You can test out of a lot of things. Schools consider student diversity (including financial diversity) to be a priority. It stands to reason that things should be a lot easier now if the schools would be a bit creative. Some schools already do offer online options etc.

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My hesitation with CC is that a lot of the offerings are not transferable. So you pay for two years of CC and only a few of the credits actually transfer.

 

 

Oh, ok. In our state there is an agreement that ALL credits from CC transfer to state universities, and we have just standardized all higher ed schools so that they are all on semesters now, so anything from a CC will transfer as exactly the same credit one would get at a state university. So transferring of credits is not an issue here.

 

Tara

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She definitely won't qualify for merit aid. Her grades are ok but her ACT score is absymal (I'm honestly worried about her ability to even be accepted to a university, it's so bad), and has remained so despite taking prep classes and retaking the test.

 

I know people have a negative opinion of CC, but I honestly don't get why. I went to CC for two years before transferring to a state university and finishing my degree. CC never hindered me, to my knowledge it did not affect my financial aid, and no one would even know I went to CC because my degree says [state] University. I graduated sixth in my class of 450 kids, and I applied (and was accepted to) the state university I eventually graduated from. They gave me a $500 per quarter merit scholarship even though my GPA was a 4.96 and my ACT score was a 31. That's why I went to community college first. It cost me approx. $1,000 per year, including books. The state university's piddly little scholarship wasn't really going to help me.

 

Unless things have changed significantly, I'm not sure why CC is such a bad thing.

 

Tara

 

It's not necessarily a negative opinion, it's a find the best place for the student opinion.

 

In your case I'd probably be doing exactly what you are doing as it does seem to be the best path, but for other students with other situations cc is not necessarily the best route nor the least expensive.

 

My point was to try to dispel that myth.

 

There are students who I recommend cc to when they ask. And there are others where I suggest considering other alternatives. It all depends on what goal they are looking for and what they bring to the table in terms of grades, extra curriculars, and family financial situation.

 

We are our kids guidance counselors. A good guidance counselor is aware of the many different options and tries to align the student with what is best for them based upon who they are (the student, not the counselor). For many, it's a tricky part of life as most of us bring one (maybe two) paths to the table from experience - yet there are many to be explored.

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In the case of my oldest, he wants a STEM major and the community college doesn't offer any math classes he hasn't taken in high school.

 

Algebra 1 is the highest math course offered at our CC. On top of which, it's reputation is so poor, the credits do not transfer to any of the tier 1 and tier 2 LAC's and UNi's in the state. Only a couple of very poorly ranked regional uni's will take them. So, CC does us not one bit of good.

 

On top of which, even if the CC was a decent one, the programs my boys are looking at automatically "ding" the application if they are attempting to transfer credits for anything more than electives.

 

Faith

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Really? That is crazy. Ours offers a lot of math. I didn't look at all of the catalog, but it offers Calc 1 through Calc 3 and Trig. as well as several others.

 

Dawn

 

Algebra 1 is the highest math course offered at our CC. On top of which, it's reputation is so poor, the credits do not transfer to any of the tier 1 and tier 2 LAC's and UNi's in the state. Only a couple of very poorly ranked regional uni's will take them. So, CC does us not one bit of good.

 

On top of which, even if the CC was a decent one, the programs my boys are looking at automatically "ding" the application if they are attempting to transfer credits for anything more than electives.

 

Faith

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The big expense are the professors who are making $$$$ and getting very cushy benefits in exchange for only teaching 1 or 2 classes per term.

 

What kind of professors are you talking about? There are very few for whom this description is accurate.

Many professors are paid rather poorly, especially in the humanities.

For professors in the sciences and in engineering, salaries at the universities are far below the salaries those people could make with their skills if they went into industry.

An assistant professor who is starting at our university is paid less than the average starting salary of the students we graduate.

Professors who teach only two classes per term are doing research, advise grad students, write grant proposals (aside from nine months basic salary which is paid by the university, any money for equipment, summer salary, postdoc -and many grad student- salaries comes from grants, not from the university), serve as editors for scientific journals (without compensation). Professors who "only teach 1-2 classes per term" still put in at minimum 50-60 hour work weeks.

 

The biggest expense for universities are not instructor salaries, but pensions, benefits and building maintenance.

Edited by regentrude
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Algebra 1 is the highest math course offered at our CC.

 

Wow. Our CC offers several different Trig classes and Calculus 1-3.

 

But I guess we are lucky, because ours also regularly ranks among the best CCs in the country.

 

Tara

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My hesitation with CC is that a lot of the offerings are not transferable. So you pay for two years of CC and only a few of the credits actually transfer.

 

I have been told this is not the case everywhere, but for sure it is here. Many of the courses are designed for students who need to get up to par with college level work. So the courses are intro to this and that, study skills, basic, etc.

 

Stereotypically speaking.....East coast CCs are like an upper level high school. West coast CCs are like small universities.

 

Our CC (Vancouver, Wa) credits transfer to most universities in our area, including rigorous state school programs like pre-med, law etc. Many, many people start at our CCs for the small class size and quality instruction before university on purpose, not because it was their only choice.

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I'm pretty sure the colleges would just be filled with high-paying foreign students and the mega-rich.

 

:iagree: let's hope not, though. My dh is a college instructor and finances are tight enough at their cc!

 

I am always surprised to hear about cc classes not transferring. Dh teaches cc here in IL and has never had that issue with ANY of his students, most of whom are premed or engineering majors that he keeps in contact with. And he teaches at a tiny college. No prestige here. I guess it depends on what state you are in? Because I had my IL cc credits transfer to Duke and OSU with no problem. Sure it's like high school part 2 for some students, but the same goes for every college I've ever had experience with (and my stepdad was a professor, so I have a long history with them!). Of course things like a phlebotomy class won't transfer, too. Obviously technical classes are different. You have to be ridiculous to think auto mechanics or cosmetology will work to get you in premed at UofI. But the work experience will help.

 

As for professors making tons of money and not teaching...never seen it! I've known some who make great money, but they work their tails off researching and teaching. Even the ones I hated. And contrary to what a lot of people think, tenure is not to fault. Many tenured professors were cut from my dh's cc a couple of years ago due to budget cuts. It might depend on the college or state, but let's not blame that. There is really very little job security in education right now.

 

Many colleges are trying to push out tenure and full time professors and use mainly adjunct professors. Mostly because they pay them FAR less and don't have to pay for benefits. Not different than outsourcing factories, IMHO. Not that some aren't great teachers (a few of my friends and relatives are adjunct), but they are doing the same work and deserve the same benefits. But that's how a lot of colleges are cutting costs for pretty new buildings, while not bothering to cut administrative salaries. So I think if the money is cut, they will cut teachers and student services before they cut building or administration. It's a shame, but that's what a lot of colleges here are already doing.

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I guess I'm confused by what you are saying. I know student loans are not dischargeable.

 

When I took out student loans they actually were from private lenders. But they were protected by the government. They weren't really personal loans in the sense of going to a bank and just asking for money without any sort of security.

 

I don't understand your confusion. I quoted your post that said, "The reason loans are not dischargeable is because the government has a hand in it. I assume that may no longer be the case if the government no longer has anything to do with it and therefore what bank would take that kind of risk for that kind of money?"

 

My response to that was that your assumption--that the loans would no longer be dischargeable--is inaccurate. Student loans are not dischargeable (at this time), whether they are held by the gov't or privately.

 

Private loans still are available for students, although the large majority are now federal (I've read 10% v. 90%). The private student loans are not "personal loans," as they are not secured, and just like the federal loans, they do not fall under the protection of a bankruptcy. Private lenders will continue to give unsecured (guaranteed) student loans because they are likely to be repaid over the course of a person's life.

 

--------------

LOL, now we're posting at the same time! Now it's confusing!

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Great subject! I admit it's an interested question and one I'm not even going to speculate on as I'm not at my best today due to a head cold.

 

DS18 wanted (wants?) to attend a local art school for graphic design. We refused to let him apply as we're not paying for a $90K art degree and DH won't let him get financial aid. Our compromise is that we'll pay for him to earn a trade degree at the local CC and then he can save up the $$ and put himself through the fancy art school if he chooses to do so. I suspect he'll end up getting his media degree from the local school though now that he's seen the benefits of it.

 

DS14 wants to attend an in-state private bible college but I've told him if he wants to make that happen he has to step it up quite a bit. As of right now, he doesn't have the motivation to get the grades he'll need to earn enough scholarships to attend and it's well out of my budget.

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