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Engineering - ABET certified?


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From the engineering license people:

 

"Generally, states licensing boards require P.E. candidates to have at least a bachelor's degree from a program accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Commission of ABET. The ABET Web site allows you to search for accredited programs (select EAC in the "accredited by" field).

 

If your degree is not from an accredited program, most states require your credentials to be substantially equivalent to that of a graduate of an EAC/ABET-accredited program. NCEES offers a Credentials Evaluations service that compares the education of foreign-educated candidates (as well as those earning engineering degrees from domestic, non-ABET accredited programs) to established criteria standards."

 

"Licensed engineers also enjoy more career options. As a P.E., you would be able to perform certain tasks, such as

 

•Stamp and seal designs

•Bid for government contracts

•Be principal of a firm

•Perform consulting services

•Offer services to the public

Steps to become a P.E.

While each state licensing board has its own laws regarding engineering licensure, there is a general four-step process for licensure candidates:

 

1.Earn a degree from an ABET-accredited engineering program.

2.Pass the FE exam.

3.Gain acceptable work experience (typically a minimum of four years). In most cases, this must be completed under the supervision of a P.E.

4.Pass the PE exam in the appropriate discipline."

 

It is more important for some engineers than others. DH is not a PE, but has a PhD in aerospace, and that has been enough for him to design wings of planes that are now flying. My DBIL and DSIL are both civil engineers. They both need to be PEs for their jobs.

 

All of that to say, I wouldn't send my kid to a non-accredited engineering program. I wouldn't even let him take classes at one if he wanted to be an engineer. (Ok, if MIT lost its accreditation tomorrow, I would still let him go to school there. MIT won't lose its accreditation, though, so that is really a non-issue.)

 

They are a new program. ABET accreditation takes less than two years.

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Yes, ABET certification is important for engineering (not as mandatory for computer science, but still worth looking at). The vast majority of good engineering programs have ABET certification and there are reasons to be concerned if a school doesn't have it.

 

Just to give you one example, take a look at this certification and licensing information from California. This a huge document, but page five shows how differently graduates of ABET and non ABET schools are treated in professional licensing. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf

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For various reasons, I have been investigating California Baptist University for my son who is interested in studying engineering. They have a College of Engineering, but it doesn't look like the school is ABET certified. Is this important? They have only had a College of Engineering since 2007.

 

I would see ABET as an absolute must. I cannot imagine an industry recruiting graduates from an unaccredited school.

 

I would also encourage looking into schools with strong co-op programs. Co-oping as an engineering student is win-win. The pay is excellent (ds made close to 2/3 of his BS salary during his co-op yr) and the experience is likely to lead to better job offers upon graduation. In ds's graduating class, the only engineering students w/job offers prior to graduation were those w/co-op experience. Many of ds friends w/o co-op experience were still w/o engineering jobs several months after graduation. Ds, otoh, received 4 excellent offers. (GPA was also vital. No one w/a GPA below 3.5 received job offers.)

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From the engineering license people:

 

 

 

 

 

It is more important for some engineers than others. DH is not a PE, but has a PhD in aerospace, and that has been enough for him to design wings of planes that are now flying. My DBIL and DSIL are both civil engineers. They both need to be PEs for their jobs.

 

All of that to say, I wouldn't send my kid to a non-accredited engineering program. I wouldn't even let him take classes at one if he wanted to be an engineer. (Ok, if MIT lost its accreditation tomorrow, I would still let him go to school there. MIT won't lose its accreditation, though, so that is really a non-issue.)

 

They are a new program. ABET accreditation takes less than two years.

 

That's pretty much what I thought.

 

Yes, ABET certification is important for engineering (not as mandatory for computer science, but still worth looking at). The vast majority of good engineering programs have ABET certification and there are reasons to be concerned if a school doesn't have it.

 

Just to give you one example, take a look at this certification and licensing information from California. This a huge document, but page five shows how differently graduates of ABET and non ABET schools are treated in professional licensing. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf

 

Interesting document.

 

I would not spend the time or money to get a degree from a program that is not accredited. I also wouldn't consider an engineering technology degree.

 

That's good to know.

 

I would see ABET as an absolute must. I cannot imagine an industry recruiting graduates from an unaccredited school.

 

I would also encourage looking into schools with strong co-op programs. Co-oping as an engineering student is win-win. The pay is excellent (ds made close to 2/3 of his BS salary during his co-op yr) and the experience is likely to lead to better job offers upon graduation. In ds's graduating class, the only engineering students w/job offers prior to graduation were those w/co-op experience. Many of ds friends w/o co-op experience were still w/o engineering jobs several months after graduation. Ds, otoh, received 4 excellent offers. (GPA was also vital. No one w/a GPA below 3.5 received job offers.)

 

Is there a place that lists the schools with co-op programs?

 

It's a good thing, but our situation is complicated by the fact that my husband teaches at a Christian university with a tuition exchange program. Ideally, he could go to a school tuition-free if we get the tuition exchange. We are trying to find good candidates within those parameters, if possible. My husband's school only has a pre-engineering transfer program.

 

Thank you everyone for your help!

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You'll probably need to investigate each school individually. Co-op depts should be easily found searching a college's website. Colleges w/active co-oping are going to have businesses that are on campus interviewing and recruiting students meaning that they are actively seeking out the students vs. the students have to be the only one doing the seeking. (It is also a good sign of the reputation of the school's program w/in the different industries b/c an industry is not going to recruit from schools that produce workers that are not high performers.)

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Hi Running,

 

I would suggest calling the Dean of Engineering at CBU and asking about the accreditation progress. My son's best friend is an engineering student at CBU and absolutely loves the program and is gainfully employed this summer at the Mojave Spaceport. He started his studies knowing that he was going in on the ground floor of a new program, and CBU expects to be fully accredited before this young man graduates (probably a year and a half from now). If your husband's tuition exchange program works out of state, you might want to consider LeTourneau University in Longview, TX. LeTU has a great engineering program and is fully accredited. My son will be a junior there in a few weeks.

Blessings,

April

 

 

 

 

For various reasons, I have been investigating California Baptist University for my son who is interested in studying engineering. They have a College of Engineering, but it doesn't look like the school is ABET certified. Is this important? They have only had a College of Engineering since 2007.
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Is there a place that lists the schools with co-op programs?

 

It's a good thing, but our situation is complicated by the fact that my husband teaches at a Christian university with a tuition exchange program. Ideally, he could go to a school tuition-free if we get the tuition exchange. We are trying to find good candidates within those parameters, if possible. My husband's school only has a pre-engineering transfer program.

 

Thank you everyone for your help!

Hi,

 

Here's one list of coop schools that I found through a google search:

 

http://www.waceinc.org/institutions/unitedstates.html

 

Also, you might inquire at schools that your child is interested in if it would be possible to do a coop semester even if they don't have a formal program.

 

Brenda

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Hi Running,

 

I would suggest calling the Dean of Engineering at CBU and asking about the accreditation progress. My son's best friend is an engineering student at CBU and absolutely loves the program and is gainfully employed this summer at the Mojave Spaceport. He started his studies knowing that he was going in on the ground floor of a new program, and CBU expects to be fully accredited before this young man graduates (probably a year and a half from now). If your husband's tuition exchange program works out of state, you might want to consider LeTourneau University in Longview, TX. LeTU has a great engineering program and is fully accredited. My son will be a junior there in a few weeks.

Blessings,

April

 

I emailed the admissions department. You're right. CBU expects to be fully accredited by this fall.

 

Hi,

 

Here's one list of coop schools that I found through a google search:

 

http://www.waceinc.org/institutions/unitedstates.html

 

Also, you might inquire at schools that your child is interested in if it would be possible to do a coop semester even if they don't have a formal program.

 

Brenda

 

Great idea!

 

You might look at George Fox in Oregon, which is ABET accredited, depending on what exchange you have (George Fox is a CCCU school).

 

We'll check the school out.

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I was a Member of IEEE for approximately 20 years. I am retired now. IEEE and another professional engineering organization previously did the accreditation. IMHO, ABET accreditation is a MUST.

 

To give you just one simple example of what accreditation means to an engineering graduate: In 1985, I was employed as a Consultant, on an hourly basis, by a well known aerospace company in the USA. I am not a university graduate, but my badge had the word "Engineer" on it.

 

I was told the client company had a list of approximately 50 Engineering schools in the USA. If someone employed by that company was not a graduate of one of those 50 schools, their badge did not have the word "Engineer" on it.

 

One of the reasons that we are going to enroll our DD (11) in the Middle School of Texas Tech University ISD (Distance Learning) is that nobody will ever question what school she went to or who issued her diploma.

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One of the reasons that we are going to enroll our DD (11) in the Middle School of Texas Tech University ISD (Distance Learning) is that nobody will ever question what school she went to or who issued her diploma.

 

While I agree with Lanny and all the others that the ABET cert is a must for the field, I and many other experienced homeschooling moms would not agree that enrolling an 11yo in something to achieve a diploma from an "unquestioned" source is needed for college.

 

Many of us have kids on full-ride, full-tuition, or other high-percentage merit scholarships at great colleges with nothing but a mommy diploma that is corroborated by good scores, dual-credit, or outstanding extracurriculars.

 

Just saying, b/c I would hate for a newb to stumble across this post and think that the poster's choice was pretty much what had to be done, not that Lanny said that. ; )

 

Best wishes to Lanny and all of us as we seek the best path for our students.

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Many of us have kids on full-ride, full-tuition, or other high-percentage merit scholarships at great colleges with nothing but a mommy diploma that is corroborated by good scores, dual-credit, or outstanding extracurriculars.

:iagree:

That's exactly what's happened w/us with only a "Mommy Diploma"!

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To all those who have responded to the original posting concerning CBU and ABET accreditation etc... please read below...

 

First, let me identify myself. I am the founding dean of the college of engineering at California Baptist University.

 

1) all degrees at CBU are WASC accredited... with respect to ABET (the important secondary accreditation see below)

 

When one starts a new program from scratch, ABET cannot accredit until after the first graduating class which is then retroactive to the first class. THey cannot send a team visit until the fall after the first graduates and they do not render the final decision until the August or september of the following year after a formative (not punitive) iterative process of accessment and feedback.

 

We have done just that... i.e. 1) our first graduating class was in May of 2011... the self study (600 pages) was turned in July 1 of 2011... our team visit was fall of 2011. 2) After the iterative feedback etc... the vote took place this July but is not revealed to us until this August or September. Note we sought to have BS CE, BS ECE and BS ME accredited this first round.

 

Industry loves our graduates... in ECE two of our grads received in the mid 80's (20k$ above the average starting)... We have had students hired by GE, Southern California Edison, Northrup Grumman, Naval Surface Weapon Center to name a few. Because of the high regard that their engineers placed on our graduates the NSWC pushed through paperwork to allow our grads to be hired at engineering pay grades and classed as a scientist until the accreditation comes in. We placed all but one of our Civil Engineers in our first graduating class (which is in a down market) in either grad school, or employment as an engineer.

 

WE have a strategic advisory board that consists of 27 CEO's or lead officers of their companies that give outstanding feedback.

We require (not recommend) that all of our students have an intern experience prior to graduation. (Dont know of many schools in the country that require this).

We require (not recommend) that all of our students pass a practice FE online exam prior to graduation. Our initial pass rate on the actual FE exam (really needed for Civil Engineers, for example) is 80%! The ones that did not pass are studying and taking again.

Our professors are in the process of completing the development of a curriculum partner program with in which every course we teach will have feedback from two industry people and one other educational institution person at least once a year!

We have active and successful student chapters in ASCE, IEEE and ASME... the IEEE was selected as the chapter of the year for the area (representing many top schools)... not self nominated but recommended by the professional society. We have had students do very well in competitions.

We require all students to have a cross cultural experience before graduating.

All of our professors have PhD's - from highly respected graduate programs, almost all have industrial experience and they have as a focus teaching young people from a Christian perspective. Note: one of our professors wrote the highly acclaimed book Thriving at College...

WHen the entire class was accessed at their internships the scores ranged from 4.19 to 4.56 out of 5 where 5 was superior... including the life skills of oral and written communication, teamwork and leadership.

Our students have been very competitive in getting into the UC grad schools. For example at one UC where there were 300 applicants and 15 chosen, two of our recent grads got full fellowships.

 

Another important note for several of the comments... when comparing with Letourneau/George FOx etc... our degrees are the BS CE, BS ECE and BS ME... not a BSE with a concentration in those areas... i.e. we give what the UC schools give. We also have the BS E. We are the only CCCU school with BS CE and BS CM (construction management). WE are adding the BS CHem E... we recently hired the former department chair of the number one ranked undergrad Chem E program in the country (Rose Hulman).

 

For further information please contact me directly by phone 951 343 4972 ... if you are not sure do not post suppositions.

 

Thanks for reading this reply.

Edited by DrD
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To all those who have responded to the original posting concerning CBU and ABET accreditation etc... please read below...

 

First, let me identify myself. I am the founding dean of the college of engineering at California Baptist University.

 

1) all degrees at CBU are WASC accredited... with respect to ABET (the important secondary accreditation see below)

 

When one starts a new program from scratch, ABET cannot accredit until after the first graduating class which is then retroactive to the first class. THey cannot send a team visit until the fall after the first graduates and they do not render the final decision until the August or september of the following year after a formative (not punitive) iterative process of accessment and feedback.

 

We have done just that... i.e. 1) our first graduating class was in May of 2011... the self study (600 pages) was turned in July 1 of 2011... our team visit was fall of 2011. 2) After the iterative feedback etc... the vote took place this July but is not revealed to us until this August or September. Note we sought to have BS CE, BS ECE and BS ME accredited this first round.

 

Industry loves our graduates... in ECE two of our grads received in the mid 80's (20k$ above the average starting)... We have had students hired by GE, Southern California Edison, Northrup Grumman, Naval Surface Weapon Center to name a few. Because of the high regard that their engineers placed on our graduates the NSWC pushed through paperwork to allow our grads to be hired at engineering pay grades and classed as a scientist until the accreditation comes in. We placed all but one of our Civil Engineers in our first graduating class (which is in a down market) in either grad school, or employment as an engineer.

 

WE have a strategic advisory board that consists of 27 CEO's or lead officers of their companies that give outstanding feedback.

We require (not recommend) that all of our students have an intern experience prior to graduation. (Dont know of many schools in the country that require this).

We require (not recommend) that all of our students pass a practice FE online exam prior to graduation. Our initial pass rate on the actual FE exam (really needed for Civil Engineers, for example) is 80%! The ones that did not pass are studying and taking again.

Our professors are in the process of completing the development of a curriculum partner program with in which every course we teach will have feedback from two industry people and one other educational institution person at least once a year!

We have active and successful student chapters in ASCE, IEEE and ASME... the IEEE was selected as the chapter of the year for the area (representing many top schools)... not self nominated but recommended by the professional society. We have had students do very well in competitions.

We require all students to have a cross cultural experience before graduating.

All of our professors have PhD's - from highly respected graduate programs, almost all have industrial experience and they have as a focus teaching young people from a Christian perspective. Note: one of our professors wrote the highly acclaimed book Thriving at College...

WHen the entire class was accessed at their internships the scores ranged from 4.19 to 4.56 out of 5 where 5 was superior... including the life skills of oral and written communication, teamwork and leadership.

Our students have been very competitive in getting into the UC grad schools. For example at one UC where there were 300 applicants and 15 chosen, two of our recent grads got full fellowships.

 

Another important note for several of the comments... when comparing with Letourneau/George FOx etc... our degrees are the BS CE, BS ECE and BS ME... not a BSE with a concentration in those areas... i.e. we give what the UC schools give. We also have the BS E. We are the only CCCU school with BS CE and BS CM (construction management). WE are adding the BS CHem E... we recently hired the former department chair of the number one ranked undergrad Chem E program in the country (Rose Hulman).

 

For further information please contact me directly by phone 951 343 4972 ... if you are not sure do not post suppositions.

 

Thanks for reading this reply.

 

See my response at the end of the posting.

 

Dr. Donaldson Dean of ENgineering CBU

 

Thank you SO much for jumping into the discussion. This is just the information I am looking for right now, and we will definitely be paying your school a visit in the future!

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if you are not sure do not post suppositions.

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

You sent me a private msg asking me to read your post, which I did. Then when I got to the end of your lengthy post, I found an inaccurate and inappropriate statement.

 

I'm glad that you are proud of your program (as you should be), and I am glad that your students are placing well (as they should be). The very fact that you are pursuing ABET accreditation when you already have such stellar results rather makes our point.

 

The long-timers here, myself included, know that this is a *nice* place where people interested in College and High School don't drop bombshells on one another. We have better things to do, like giving tried and true, honest feedback about the real world we and our kids live in.

 

I believe that if you review all the posts, people are addressing the necessity of ABET accreditation and not specifically commenting on the quality of your institution.

 

Please re-read carefully and re-assess whether there are "suppositions." I find none. Indeed, all the posts gave solid information addressing the questions that arose within the discussion.

 

My post was the most off-topic, because I addressed a potential supposition that a newbie might take away from one of the posts. However, I addressed the issue and the poster kindly and with respect.

 

Thank you for (maybe) listening.

Edited by Valerie(TX)
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The very fact that you are pursuing ABET accreditation when you already have such stellar results rather makes our point.

 

I believe that if you review all the posts, people are addressing the necessity of ABET accreditation and not specifically commenting on the quality of your institution. Please re-read carefully and re-assess whether there are "suppositions." I find none. Indeed, all the posts gave solid information addressing the questions that arose within the discussion. My post was the most off-topic, because I addressed a potential supposition that a newbie might take away from one of the posts. But I addressed the issue and the poster kindly and with respect.

 

Thank you for (maybe) listening.

 

Absolutely. Other than the OP I doubt very many even have a clue what school is even being discussed. (I still don't b/c it is not a name that I recognized and I just didn't pay that much attention to it in general. ;)) I assume that most responses were generic in the vein of "look for these things as representative of a good engineering program" type responses and ABET is one of the most basic.

 

And, Valerie, your post addressing to the parent of younger student that enrollment in "unquestioned" source is not necessary should be addressed.

 

ETA: OP, as you research various programs, the terms co-op and internship may or may not be interchangeable. (google difference between internship vs. co-op and links like this http://campus-to-career.com/2010/10/05/co-op-vs-internship-what’s-the-difference/ are available) I would ask what internship means. 10-12 wk summer internships are not on the same level of work experience as 12 months. This varies from program to program so that is the type of question I would ask.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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ETA: OP, as you research various programs, the terms co-op and internship may or may not be interchangeable. (google difference between internship vs. co-op and links like this http://campus-to-career.com/2010/10/05/co-op-vs-internship-what’s-the-difference/ are available) I would ask what internship means. 10-12 wk summer internships are not on the same level of work experience as 12 months. This varies from program to program so that is the type of question I would ask.

 

I appreciate the advice.

 

 

My post was the most off-topic, because I addressed a potential supposition that a newbie might take away from one of the posts. However, I addressed the issue and the poster kindly and with respect.

 

 

As the OP, I agree that the slightly off-topic post was useful. I plan to issue a "mommy diploma" and have no doubt that my son's achievements will speak for themselves.

 

I also feel that the tone of this thread was helpful and respectful. Thank you to all who have contributed.

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