Sonlight VS TOG

[homeschoolmomof6]

Hi everyone!

I just joined the boards today. I'm a homeschooling mom of 6 and have used Sonlight for the past 11 years. I've done every core from 2-530. Honestly, as much as I love Sonlight I'm starting to get a little bored with it. Can someone compare Sonlight and TOG for me. My oldest graduated last month, so I still have 5 at home ranging in age from 8-17.

Thanks!

Amanda

[historybuffmom]

I too love Sonlight and I too found I needed to take a break. In my case, I was a die hard Sonlighter for 7 years. Found as my oldest entered high school he needed his history more time efficiently packed. Sonlight had done its job--he loved history and saw the big picture. So his freshman year we started with Stobaugh's "For such a time as this" World Lit/World History, Rhetoric his sophomore year and American Lit/American history this past year as a junior. The literature and history curriculum complement and refer to one another. Very reasonably priced. Critical thinking questions are great. But there are some weaknesses. In the three programs of Stobaugh's that I've used he provides student examples that would be typical of a college graduate student's writing so the student really can't relate. And the amount of work he asks of the student seems to assume this is the student's only subject. So you the mom need to go through and pick and choose what your student will do.

 

 

 

 

World Lit/history was great. I cannot recommend the rhetoric course. Some good ideas. But the teacher's manual was useless. American Lit/history had great focus on world views and good critical thinking questions but found many of the writers he chose were obscure and to the student often cryptic. In hindsight I should have skipped some of his chapters and I think it would have been much better. I had forgotten one of Sonlight's guidelines I'm sure you know--you control the curriculum, don't let the curriculum control you.

 

 

I too am new to the forum and started a thread the day before you joined asking for feedback on Sonlight's British Lit because I'm coming back to Sonlight for my son's senior year and want some ideas of what to keep, what to pare down etc. If you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them. If you want to respond, the thread started 7/8/08, 10:41pm.

[homeschoolmomof6]

Thanks for your reply. I replied to your post regarding Sonlight British Literature.

Blessings,

Amanda

[momee]

No Planning! That was the huge difference I experienced when I switched to SL from TOG.

 

What have we missed? Philosophy...writing aids...mapwork...evaluations...hands on suggestions...wrapping in of the youngers.

 

I'm still in the eval stage of whether we'll stay. I think we were learning at a bit of a different level with TOG but I need to give it a bit longer to say for sure.

 

I do LOVE not having to have made a library run in order for school to happen though, and I love not spending my Sunday afternoons reserving books or making a schedule of work to do for history.

HTH I know I go back and forth so much in this post it's probably of no help, just trying to share my experience...

[momofkhm]

I have no idea who wrote it. But I'm sure it was from this board. I had to edit it to fit in the allot space.

 

First of all, have you looked at the topics covered for each curriculum. There are only so many weeks in the year and "The Ancients" is a broad topic. Both SL and TOG cover ancient history, but they don't focus on exactly the same topics. Sonlight 6 goes on to include the Middle Ages. That may be a plus for your family. Would you like to cover all of that history in one year? If so, then I would choose SL. If you want to spend more time on just anicent history, then I would look at TOG. If I were trying to choose I would look at that first.

 

Then take a look at the core resources for each program. SL uses SOTW books 1 & 2, and the G. Foster books. TOG uses different spines depending on the level (LG, UG, D, R). They also included SOTW I on their new redesigned schedule so you can use that if you want to; it is listed as an alternative resource. They do not use it as a core book. I don't think TOG includes any page numbers for the G. Foster book. SL doesn't list alternative schedules for any other books either.

 

The third thing I would look at: What kind of environment causes our family to thrive? This can be a tough analysis. There's a temptation to glance back over how things have worked or not worked in the past, and to be hopeful that we will "turn over a new leaf" in the future. Some programs require more planning than other programs. There are benefits and costs involved. Please take a look at your other subjects for the year. If you are planning to design your own science program from scratch, you might want to have a pick-up-and-go history program. You'll need balance.

 

If you purchase SL's core, they will send you everything that you need to use their level 6 program. All of the books will be in your house. They will also include a schedule that tells you exactly what to do everyday in order to "line up" the history books, readers, and read-alouds. If you buy the mark-it maps and the timeline books, their instructors guide tells you which DAY to color and cut out Marco Polo and stick him in your timeline book. They will tell you which DAY you are supposed to find Gaul on the map. If you purchase the LA guide, they will tell you exactly what topic your child should write about and which days they should write.

 

TOG has a focus that is a bit different. They now sell book packages; just like with SL, you can buy all of the books that you will need for the year. BUT TOG still provides choices. If you download their sample week, you will see on page two that they offer alternative literature books that can be read for the week - Mara, Daughter of the Nile. First of all, you NEED to come to grips with how you feel about that. Because I believe that it symbolizes the ROOT of why people either love or hate TOG. There are choices. SL does not offer any alternative resources. They schedule or list nothing that is not included in the core. TOG abounds with choices - even the redesign. If you are secretly convinced that there is a "way" to "cover" ancient history, then you are going to be frustrated by TOG. There is NO WAY to do everything she has offered. The redesign helps; they have taken the time to pull out one core book in each area for each topic. Basically what they are saying is this: If you cover THIS material then you have done a great job teaching ancient history. You can think of it as buying the SL "core" package. It's everything you need. However, they include the extra material for the folks who love to pick and choose. Believe it or not, that can be tough for some people who secretly want to do it all.

 

SL schedules each book. They have taken the time to divide all of the books up so that the reading is balanced from week to week. Some kids thrive on this. Some kids prefer to read one book and then read the next book. Most readers and read-alouds are scheduled over several weeks. Obviously, the spines are also scheduled over several weeks too.

 

TOG is different. Most literature books are finished in just one or two weeks. No page numbers are scheduled. This can be overwhelming; some kids thrive on it. If your child needs to be told what to do every day, then you will have to divide the books up over the days.

 

Another thing that I would pay close attention to is the discussion questions. SL does a great job of providing reading comprehension questions for each book. Take a look at their sample. For the history books, they give you an overview that tells you what was covered in the chapter. For the literature they ask general comprehension questions for each chapter that your child reads. These are great for teaching your children the art of narration. This is a great way to move toward discussing a book and its themes. However - and here's where I'm going to have to beg for mercy from those who love SL ... I have plenty of SL guides. These discussion questions have NOT helped me to move toward having a "big picture" discussion with my kids at the end of the book. I want to move a sixth, seventh, and eighth grader in the direction of literary analysis. What is the author really trying to say here? Take a look at the TOG sample that lists the discussion questions for the Golden Goblet on page 18. These are much more open ended to me. *I* like this. It helps me. It's what my kids need in their education right now.

 

If you child has done a lot of narration and they are READY to start discussing themes in a book, you might look again at TOG. If they haven't done narration and short chapter-by-chapter analysis then I would lean toward SL. You can't do one without the other. AND please understand either program can EASILY be tweaked to include the other. If you prefer to have the daily discussion stuff laid out for you and you prefer to run the "end of the book" discussion on your own, then I would lean toward SL. If you prefer to run the daily discussion on your own and want the "end of the book" discussion laid out for you, I would lean toward TOG. Once again, there's no *right* way to do this. They're both good. It depends on what you need for next year for your student.

 

TOG doesn't list Read Alouds. You can use books as read-alouds, but they don't offer suggestions. SL wins in this area, IMO. :-) SL provides great books and terrific guidance. You will have a wonderful year.

 

However, I do believe that there is an area where TOG shines. It is helping our family move toward having independent learners. It is designed to encourage this. In the overview section of each year's plan, Marsha lays out a "possible schedule." This is included in the overview material that is on-line if you purchase Year One Redesigned. My older children are moving toward thinking of their assignments in terms of weeks and not days. This can be a tough transition, but TOG is a great tool if you want to move in this direction. It's funny, the very thing that many people HATE about TOG - no daily schedule - is the thing that I LOVE about it. On Fridays I sit down with each of my kids and tell them what they need to accomplish for the next week. They sit with a blank planner page and divide up the assignments and lay out their week. The TOG discussion questions for The Golden Goblet is ONE set of questions for the whole book for a reason. The idea is that you need to schedule a day in your week when the student is going to come to you PREPARED to have a discussion about the entire book. They have the questions ahead of time. You just hand them the page before they start the book. They are required to be responsible to plan their week so that they are ready to meet with you on the designated day AND they are ready to have a discussion. I see this as a huge life skill that needs to be in each of my children's "bag of tricks." The history questions are designed to be used the same way. The idea is that the student will have this discussion on maybe Wednesday afternoon. After this discussion - but usually in the same session - you help them to lay out their writing assignment for the week. They will have Thursday and Friday to write and polish their writing assignment.

 

Honestly? It reminds me of taking a college class. Remember how the professor would give you a syllabus at the beginning of the semester. He would tell you what chapters to read BEFORE you came to a particular lecture? Of course I was supposed to DO this so that I came to the lecture with a vague notion of the topic. I should do the reading so that I come with questions to be answered.

 

Did I do this? No. I would show up with no clue about the material. His lecture would be my initial introduction to the topic. I would read the chapter afterward. I want to develop different habits in my kids. TOG is designed to assist me in this.

 

The cost? I have to plan their assignments. This takes time. My kids are ready for this level of accountability so I'm willing to do the extra work. I can focus on the things that I want to focus on while minimizing the things that I want to minimize.

 

We also have a terrific library. The TOG pages lay out people and events at a glance. I can easily run subject searches on my libraries web-site to generate extra picturebooks on the topics of the week; I LOVE doing this. I can also do this with SL, but I've had to dig through the books to find the people and topics.

 

TOG provides hands-on project ideas. SL doesn't. You can easily add these to SL if you like doing them. Some people hate doing hands-on stuff and are annoyed by a curriculum that suggests them.

 

TOG's site is full of extra on-line info to go with each week of work. Some people have no interest in rabbit trails.

 

My final analysis - they are both terrific programs. Really!

 

Like I said above, I had it on my hard drive. They are not my thoughts. I've never used SL. Drolled over it, but never used it.

[homeschoolmomof6]

Momee,

Thanks for your reply. Lesson planning isn't really my strong suit. I like Sonlight because I can just pick up the IG and go with it. Lots to think about.

Blessings,

Amanda

[homeschoolmomof6]

Thank-you for digging the response off your hard drive for me. I have a lot to think about. I like Sonlight in that everything is already laid out for me and I don't have to search for books at the library , but I love the idea of hands on projects for the youngers and more indepth writing and philosophy for the olders.

Blessings,

Amanda

[johnandtinagilbert]

I make copies of the assignments pages (which are laid out per level UG, LG, D, R) and highlight what assignments they will have to do.

 

I make copies of the reading lists (which are also laid out per level) and highlight what they will read. I may say, "You must read one of the following 3, you choose", or I may say, "Read what is highlighted."

 

I print out the maps from the provided disk.

 

I print out any student sheets that go along with the literature suggestions (basically reading comp. using different formats to answer ?? (venn diagrams, story boards), which is great preparation for writing tool usage or they're crossword puzzles)

 

All of these things are provided to me, I don't have to create any of them, so personally, I wouldn't call this lesson planning. I consider lesson planning when I have to do the research and separate each item into individual lessons. Everything is provided, I simply print it out, or make the copy. My preference is to do this ahead of time and place all copies in file folders labeled, for example Y1 U4 Wk28 (Year 1, Unit 4, Week 28) I separate all given materials this way and simply pull out the week's folder.

 

I do lesson plan by choosing which projects we'll do and make a supply list.

 

The first day of each week, I hand the children all pages that belong to them, we read the overview and general introduction (right out of the curriculum) and they're off. They are responsible to make sure their work is finished by the discussion day. We will actually start writing down their divisions for the older ones this coming year, but they have just done it up to this point b/c I provide plenty of time on their school schedule for them to finish.

 

Using the provided list, we have a vocab day as a group, and a geography day, where they look things up, I'm there to help if necessary. They work independently and we have a discussion on the last day of our week.

 

I print a lot of copies, but my prep time is limited to reading the teacher's notes provided, and I Choose to read the literature or any books I think look particularly interesting b/c I happen to like historical fiction and history.

 

As for read alouds, I like to use the LG books and take really long periods of time to read through one novel from the rhetoric section (if appropriate).

 

Finally, many of the books are used over weeks at a time (at least in Ancients they are), and only a few pages are assigned each week. I say that b/c I really don't spend too much time dealing w. the library (you could buy the books from TOG), and although I may highlight 4 books, those books might only make up 15 pages of independent reading. For example, we have been in Ancient Rome for some time and we have used the same core and supplements the entire time. The only books I have had to go to the library for were the literature suggestions. There are enough options that if I can't get it from the library, I just don't do it and I am certain we are still getting enough. There were other options, but I have found over time, when we did all the books, we really were repeating the same info again and again. When she says alternate, she means it :)

 

Having said all of that, a friend has used both, now uses TOG and she said the big differences were:

SL is not as hands on b/c the lack of projects given

TOG ties together the big picture better

TOG does require more time (doing the stuff I mentioned), but she didn't consider that lesson planning, she just calls that preparation.

 

She loved the biographies SL offered, so she just bought them and uses them. She felt like having things scripted served a purpose during a season, but she is no longer in that season. SL is wonderful, TOG fits her family better now.

 

Hope that helps. Best wishes on your decision....I hope you find what is best for your family :)

 

ps my children are 2-ds dialectic, dd UG/occasional dialectic, dd LG/UG, ds LG

[homeschoolmomof6]

Thank you so much for your imput. I think the only way I'll figure out which I want to use this year is to order TOG Year 1 and look over it. We just finishe a Sonlight 3/4, 100, 400 split with Sonlight, so I'd like to go back to World History with either TOG Year 1 or Sonlight. Do you happen to know what Tapestry of Graces's return policy is in case I order it and don't like it?

Blessings,

Amanda

[johnandtinagilbert]

but you can get 3 weeks of year one for free. It's on the Y! portion of the site. The site is big (too big IMO), but the info is great and the free trial may help you make sense of it all. The Forums are very helpful too.

[homeschoolmomof6]

Great! I'll check there first. Thanks for the information.

Blessings,

Amanda

[Denise in PA]

Wow- the threads were well written and very helpful too! I especially enjoyed reading someone's TOG opinion saved on her hard drive (I plan to save it too).

 

I have never taught from Sonlight only Learning Adventures from Dorian Holt and now TOG for the past three years. Yes, I do order books from my local library on-line but that is the only "preparation" needed. My kids absolutely love the planning stage each Friday (sometimes on Mondays - your choice). Sitting around the kitchen table - where else - we briefly discuss the topic for the following week and then assign readings and questions. My older teens usually print out the family's TOG student pages from a handy CD and then off they go. Armed with their assignments written in their own planner they now OWN their weekly educational calendar. We schedule what day they will come to me for literature and history discussions and then must prepare. They really like the freedom to master their time and probably not having me to "badger" them to complete their homework! Will they be able to handle college in a couple of years? I believe they will, in large part to TOG!

[homeschoolmomof6]

Thanks, Denise!

I looked over the sample lesson plans and I think I'll make the jump to TOG this year. I'll have kids in all three levels, but I think I can make it work.

Blessings,

Amanda

[harmonyartmom]

We were a SL family until four years ago when we made the switch to TOG.

Here 's my "nutshell" answer.

 

Reasons to stick with something like SL:

1. You don't like to plan and/or don't have the time or energy for it.

2. You feel you have to use the resources they suggest and don't want to hassle looking for alternatives at your library.

3. You have trouble not trying to do "everything".

4. You want little prep each week and don't have time to read teacher's notes.

5. You are a box checker and like to see those boxes checked on the SL plan.

6. You want an answer key in the teacher's notes.

7. You want read alouds scheduled in the plans like SL.

8. Your child just wants to be given the assignment and left alone to complete it. (I had one like that who used SL until 10th grade.)

9. You don't want to make copies/print assignment sheets, maps, literature and history questions, and charts each week for your child.

10. You don't have the time to take the sample in a trial run. (I highly recommend the trial run just so you can see either how you love it or how overwhelmed you are with it.)

 

 

 

Reasons to switch to TOG:

1. You enjoy taking time to look through different resources.

2. You are good at teaching the same thing to everyone, just on different levels.

3. Your kids are able to keep on task or be directed at first to remain on task. (There are no specific pages specified in some literature readings and they will need to be diligent about getting the planning done.)

4. You don't have trouble skipping things on the plan, knowing you will return to them four years in the future.

5. You like activities and hands-on projects planned out.

6. You want art and music appreciation addressed along with history in some way.

7. You like lapbooks that coordinate with your studies all planned out.

8. You want to have weekly discussions planned out for literature, history, geography, and fine arts.

9. If your children are older, you would like to train them to be more responsible for a portion of their own education.

10. You want a curriculum that once you buy it you are going to keep it until you are done homeschooling....keeping it for three uses in theory. (This was a HUGE draw for me and it is going to be great to be done buying curriculum with this year's purchase.)

11. You would like to involve your dh in homeschoooling with the POP Quiz CDs. (My dh LOVES this aspect of TOG.)

12. You want the flexibility to move between levels within a given year. (I loved this component of TOG the first time we went through in the middle years. Some weeks we moved up to the R level and sometimes we moved done to the UG level.)

 

Those are things off the top of my head that I would want to have known before I started with TOG. I think it was a very good decision for our family and we are going to be finishing up our homeschooling years with it....just three more years. Sigh.

 

I may keep it all and go through it again myself when the kids are all graduated and I have some more free time. So much to learn and tie together.

 

Oh, one last thing. So many people shy away from TOG because of the particular spiritual slant. I don't always agree with what is in the plan and if it is not something I want to spend time on, we skip it. On the other hand, having things presented together....history, philosophy, and literature....we have thoroughly enjoyed having the background to our beliefs solidified by a study of Bible scriptures along with history....both in year one and two. For instance in our family Bible study we are reading in Acts and we are to chapter 19 where Paul speaks in Ephesus and refers to the temple of Artemis. The boys remembered having studied about Artemis in year one and then we talked about our studies of the early Christians last year. I love it when that happens and if we were using a secular curriculum for history, we might have missed the whole thing and not been able to tie it together....or weave the tapestry together as Marcia S. says about TOG. I love connections and it seems like TOG has put down the foundations in a memorable way. I didn't find that to be so in SL.

 

That was a long answer. Hope it was helpful.

 

Barb-Harmony Art Mom

[homeschoolmomof6]

Thanks of such a detailed response. Lucky for me my "give me my lesson plans and leave me alone" child just graduated. The other 5, all boys, love the interaction with mom, so I think TOG just might work for us. Now all I have to do is sell my Sonlight stuff so I can afford the TOG stuff.

Blessings,Amanda

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Amanda!

Welcome to the boards. Cheryl quoted from this post; I thought that the original and the responses might help. :001_smile:

 

http://wtmboards.com/K8currApr052006/messages/1070.html

 

I hope that you find/found the answers that you were looking for.

 

Once again - welcome to the boards!

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[homeschoolmomof6]

Wow, thanks Janice! That was great information. And thanks for the welcome.

Blessings,

Amanda