Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I have been doing a lot of thinking and evaluating ds's math and I think I want to go a different direction or maybe just deeper into it then traditional Math. I was looking at Beast Academy for dd and started looking at AOPS for ds but now I am worried we are too late in the game to utilize this program. Can I just jump in to Intermediate Algebra without ds using the previous courses? Or should I back track and double up to get him up to level? Also how are the books scheduled, a book a year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Candid Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 They have placement tests, I'd use them to determine where you are going to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 You can start at any time without having used the other books, but you need to make sure you have covered the material that was covered in the preceding volumes. Intro to Algebra is done before Intermediate Algebra, and it covers a lot more than a traditional algebra 1 course, so I would look at the TOC and make sure your student has covered all topics with his program. As for scheduling: you can do one of the books in one year (with the possible exception of intro to Algebra which is the hardest and longest of the books). It is also possible to get done with Intermediate Algebra in less time than a year. The online class moves very fast. I recommend that you go to Diagnostic tests and do the pretest so you know whether the book is suitable for your student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

JanetC Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 It is also possible to get done with Intermediate Algebra in less time than a year. The online class moves very fast. I recommend that you go to Diagnostic tests and do the pretest so you know whether the book is suitable for your student. I'll second the opinion that the online classes are very fast. If your student can self-teach, or if you have the background to teach it, going at the student's pace is best to start. On the other hand, if the student is learning way to fast for teacher to keep up, these classes are for you! Don't just do the "pretest" for the book you are considering. Where appropriate, do the "post-test" for the book beforehand. For example, the pre-test for the algebra book is easier than the post-test for the pre-algebra book. Use both types of tests to determine placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Kathy in Richmond Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Have you seen the placement recommendations on the AoPS website? They apply to the textbooks as well as the online courses. Note that their Algebra1 and Algebra2 courses both use their Intro to Algebra textbook, while their Algebra3 course uses their Intermediate Algebra book. Don't just do the "pretest" for the book you are considering. Where appropriate, do the "post-test" for the book beforehand. For example, the pre-test for the algebra book is easier than the post-test for the pre-algebra book. Use both types of tests to determine placement. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 According to to AOPS recommendation page, if my ds has finished Algebra I (not using their program) then he should do the Into to Number Theory and Counting & Probability then refresh with Intro to Algebra 1 since there is some Algebra 2 being covered it it. If I do this should I call this an Algebra 2 course Using all 3 books in a year)? Ds took the diagnostic pre test for Intermediate Algebra and missed 2 problems but took the post test for Introduction to Algebra and missed a good portion. I am thinking he needs to do the Intro to Algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Kathy in Richmond Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 According to to AOPS recommendation page, if my ds has finished Algebra I (not using their program) then he should do the Into to Number Theory and Counting & Probability then refresh with Intro to Algebra 1 since there is some Algebra 2 being covered it it. If I do this should I call this an Algebra 2 course Using all 3 books in a year)? Ds took the diagnostic pre test for Intermediate Algebra and missed 2 problems but took the post test for Introduction to Algebra and missed a good portion. I am thinking he needs to do the Intro to Algebra. Your son probably needs to use the second half of the Intro to Algebra Textbook, which is the equivalent of most standard Algebra 2 classes. It's a full credit by itself, and you can label it as Algebra 2 on his transcript. (The next book, Intermediate Algebra, is more or less the college algebra component of a typical precalculus class. Their Precalculus text contains the rest of a typical precalculus class and much more.) The Number Theory and C&P courses are optional. Together, they would make an additional year's worth of coursework (@ 1/2 credit each). Whether or not to take them is totally up to you and your son. You can move forward using the AoPS alg-geom-precalc-calculus sequence either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Sebastian (a lady) Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 What I've found helpful is to compare the weekly topics for the online courses with the tables of content for the Intro to Algebra and Intermediate Algebra books. This made it more clear that the content of a traditional algebra 1 course would be covered in the first 13 chapters of the Intro to Algebra book. Algebra 2 is the rest of the Intro to Algebra book. Using the Number Theory and C&P books are great if you can get to them. But I think they are more appropriate to students using the faster pacing of the online courses. For us, getting through chapter 13 was a full year affair. (We tried to do a lesson each day, doing both the sample problems and the end of lesson exercises. At the end of the year, I moved us to an older edition Dolciani algebra textbook for more work on manipulating polynomials, because I didn't think it had been mastered by my kids yet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 Your son probably needs to use the second half of the Intro to Algebra Textbook, which is the equivalent of most standard Algebra 2 classes. It's a full credit by itself, and you can label it as Algebra 2 on his transcript. (The next book, Intermediate Algebra, is more or less the college algebra component of a typical precalculus class. Their Precalculus text contains the rest of a typical precalculus class and much more.) The Number Theory and C&P courses are optional. Together, they would make an additional year's worth of coursework (@ 1/2 credit each). Whether or not to take them is totally up to you and your son. You can move forward using the AoPS alg-geom-precalc-calculus sequence either way. This sounds good. I am waiting for a personal recommendation from AOPS but this is probably what they will say. Can you do Introduction to number theory alongside Intro to Algebra? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Kathy in Richmond Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Can you do Introduction to number theory alongside Intro to Algebra? Sure, as long as he has already learned beginning algebra. My daughter enjoyed their number theory class while simultaneously studying algebra 2 at home with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Trilliums Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 My older son did Saxon Alg 1 in grade 8 and AoPS Geometry in Grade 9. Toward the end of Grade 9 he wanted to work on Alg 2 as well. He started with the public school Alg 2 book, Holt. Older son didn't care much for Holt, so he switched to the AoPS intro to Alg. which I already had for my younger son who is working through Alg 1. He started on Ch. 10 to review quadratics and is now on CH. 16. We aren't sure what he will do for the 2012-13 school year. He has been considering going into Precalculus at the public school. Kathy--I appreciate reading your comments on the AoPS Intermediate Alg book because we were unsure if he needed that entire book before going into Precalculus at the ps. He does pretty well on precalculus placement tests (just random ones we have come across on the web) but not having done the AoPS Intermediate Alg book had us wondering if he was missing out on a big chunk of Alg. 2. He is still using Holt as a guideline for concepts to be covered. IN any case, completing the rest of AoPS Intro to Alg before classes begin will be be a bit of a push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 I got a response back: **Our Introduction to Algebra book covers most of the material a typical school includes in Algebra 1 and Algebra 2, plus various topics that schools don't include at all. Our curriculum is designed for students who are looking for a greater challenge than they can typically find in a typical curriculum. That said, our collection of Introduction-level books should give your son a strong foundation that will serve him well in his later studies. However, he'll have to be ready for a much greater challenge than he's had in the past. One reason you might want to start with Introduction to Algebra is that the next level of Algebra (our Intermediate Algebra) is a really tough place to start with the AoPS curriculum, since we assume that by that point students have a lot of experience with the sort of problem-solving challenges we offer in our Introduction-level books (but which students are unlikely to find in other curricula). ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Sebastian (a lady) Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I would say that's a good summary of our experience. I really like how my kids have to develop a sense of when to apply different techniques. We haven't always moved fast, but I think the learning has been deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 I would say that's a good summary of our experience. I really like how my kids have to develop a sense of when to apply different techniques. We haven't always moved fast, but I think the learning has been deep. You mention you might not move fast. This was mentioned in another post on this thread. This brings the question of if you don't move fast through the book can you fit in all the necessary High School math? I can see from what others have said and the response I got that Introd. to Algebra will give 2 credits in HS math so taking long (2 yrs) will not matter much...but what about the other books? Will a year be enough to cover the Intro to Geometry for the average student? Can Intermediate Algebra count as Trig? I am worried I might be setting my son up to fail if he is just an average math student and he attempts these books. However I know what he does learn from them will be immeasurable in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 You mention you might not move fast. This was mentioned in another post on this thread. This brings the question of if you don't move fast through the book can you fit in all the necessary High School math? I can see from what others have said and the response I got that Introd. to Algebra will give 2 credits in HS math so taking long (2 yrs) will not matter much...but what about the other books? Will a year be enough to cover the Intro to Geometry for the average student? Can Intermediate Algebra count as Trig?. Many people begin the AoPS series way before 9th grade and thus have more time to go slowly. (Intro to Algebra is the first, and the series is recommended for students starting in grade 6... that was before they came out with the prealgebra book). We did Intro to Geometry in a single year (partly overlapping with Intermediate algebra). No problem there. Intermediate Algebra does not count as trig, because it only has a brief trig intro; the major part of trigonometry is included in the precalculus book. But Intermediate Algebra does cover many topics that are normally included in precalc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Kathy in Richmond Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 You mention you might not move fast. This was mentioned in another post on this thread. This brings the question of if you don't move fast through the book can you fit in all the necessary High School math? I can see from what others have said and the response I got that Introd. to Algebra will give 2 credits in HS math so taking long (2 yrs) will not matter much...but what about the other books? Will a year be enough to cover the Intro to Geometry for the average student? Can Intermediate Algebra count as Trig? I am worried I might be setting my son up to fail if he is just an average math student and he attempts these books. However I know what he does learn from them will be immeasurable in the long run. You should be able to complete the geometry text in one year. As for precalculus, you'd definitely want to use both the intermediate algebra text (for the college algebra component) and the precalculus text (for the trig and complex numbers components). You can skip selected sections of those books if you are pressed for time. In this thread (post#5), I gave my 'bare bones' version of a precalculus syllabus utilizing the AoPS textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

JanetC Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I realize I didn't put the links for the pre and post tests. If you go to each books individual page, such as this one: http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=intro:algebra Click on the "Diagnostic Tests" tab. The pre-test is to see if there are any missing pre-requisites. The post-test is to see if there is any new material to be learned from that book. As I said, I found the pre-algebra post-test to be much more challenging than the intro-to-algebra pre-test. So, do consider both the post-test of the book before, and the pre-test of the book you are considering. Number theory and Probability are not in the algebra-geometry-pre-calc sequence and don't have the same need to know the previous level in depth. But, for deciding on which algebra book, looking at both tests is valuable. To understand why they have Number Theory and other courses outside the standard core curriculum, read "The Calculus Trap": http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=calculustrap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 You should be able to complete the geometry text in one year. As for precalculus, you'd definitely want to use both the intermediate algebra text (for the college algebra component) and the precalculus text (for the trig and complex numbers components). You can skip selected sections of those books if you are pressed for time. In this thread (post#5), I gave my 'bare bones' version of a precalculus syllabus utilizing the AoPS textbooks. Very helpful, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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