A "Dear Tibbie" post, on behalf of a WTM boardie. All advice welcome!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

*A board member asked me to post this on her behalf so she could anonymously benefit from the amazing wisdom and advice of the Hive Mind. I will post her replies to your comments, as well.

 

Please be generous, please be kind, please be wise, and above all please remember that this is not Tibbie Dunbar's problem but somebody else's! :001_smile:

 

The letter:

 

Dear Tibbie,

 

I don’t read psychology books and after a lifetime of dealing with this person – whom I will call J – I still don’t have a clue.

 

J has a history of drug use and heavy drinking, although the drugs have been only in the distant past. I don’t know if it is because of this, but every so often (recently, with more frequency) J’s view of reality and situations seems a little...off, which makes it rather difficult to have a logical/rational conversation – not all the time, but enough.

 

The drinking makes it worse but J has always been manipulative (I guess). If you say or do something this person doesn’t like, J will stop talking to you. But then a few days later, after third-party intervention, J will say “Why weren’t you talking to me? I didn’t know you were that upset.” The words “I am sorry” have come out of this persons mouth less than 5 times in 25 years (at least directed towards myself; I can’t speak for J’s other relationship). And the other littler things – pouting/making you miserable/guilting you till the situation changes to what J wants. If the situation can’t/doesn’t change, J will go along with a nasty attitude or just not participate (also with a bad attitude). Occasionally, J will say it’s time for a change and does change the behavior…for a few days at least, then it’s back to normal.

 

J is also becoming forgetful – always had “selective amnesia”, but lately it is different. J’s parents had Alzhiemers and now this person is so scared to death of the thought of it, trying to suggest getting help starts the cycle all over again (see previous paragraphs).

 

T knows how J deals with me and how our relationship is but has never done anything about it. Even when I am asking J to please remember an important thing I said, which T knows I said, T will walk out of the room and not back me up or anything. T has often said T will talk to J for me, but rarely follows through on that. I am always in the wrong/the bad guy for not just going along with J.

 

I feel like I am alone in trying to move past a mountain that takes whatever shape necessary to keep me in place.

 

There are two reasons which brought this whole thing to the forefront of my life:

1) 1- J is possibly threatening my livelihood (our relationship is even more tied up in the family-owned company and we recently brought in certain trusted outsiders). J’s “alternative reality” and manipulation is affecting how J deals with the outsiders and my job is gone if they leave. J has even told my mom to go find a job outside our company (like it’s not going to be around). I will admit it, I am moderately angry about this.

 

2) 2- J has been like this since I was little and I am worried about how J (and T’s) relationship will be with DS and how much worse I will feel in the future. Right now, I am non-existent when DS is in the room with J. I could mention that I robbed a bank and J would be like “Mm, that’s nice.” (True story). J will also get upset when I interrupt J and DS to deal with something with DS. I do NOT want DS to deal with whatever I’ve been dealing with my whole life (is there even a name for it?)

 

For myself and DS, what sort of relationship would be healthy with J (and T) and how do we get there??

 

Signed,

Invisible

[Jean in Newcastle]

1. Look for another job. I don't say this lightly but to be proactive.

 

2. Unless you are living with this person, limit your contact with this person to work for right now. Limit his contact with your ds.

 

3. If you find another job, then limit your contact with this person even further.

 

4. Read the Boundaries book. It doesn't matter if you've never read any other psychology books. This isn't about psychology but about healthy parameters.

 

5. Don't be manipulated. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Ignore not being talked to. Stop asking for 3rd party interventions. If communication is needed for your job, see number 1.

 

6. Write down important things to tell J and give them to him. Keep a copy for yourself.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Jean in Newcastle

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thank you, Jean!

 

(bump)

[kalanamak]

She might learn something from Al Anon.

[elegantlion]

I would also look into resources on bipolar. Some of those symptoms sound similar to what I have seen in my limited experience with an untreated individual. I also agree ab out al anon.

[QueenCat]

1. Look for another job. I don't say this lightly but to be proactive.

 

2. Unless you are living with this person, limit your contact with this person to work for right now. Limit his contact with your ds.

 

3. If you find another job, then limit your contact with this person even further.

 

4. Read the Boundaries book. It doesn't matter if you've never read any other psychology books. This isn't about psychology but about healthy parameters.

 

5. Don't be manipulated. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Ignore not being talked to. Stop asking for 3rd party interventions. If communication is needed for your job, see number 1.

 

6. Write down important things to tell J and give them to him. Keep a copy for yourself.

 

She might learn something from Al Anon.

 

:iagree:With all of the above. If J is the parent of ds, be sure you are documenting issues well, should you need them for legal reasons. I would be on a serious job hunt right now, without letting the current boss know about it. Drama in the workplace rarely has good outcomes.

[La Texican]

:iagree:With all of the above. If J is the parent of ds, be sure you are documenting issues well, should you need them for legal reasons. I would be on a serious job hunt right now, without letting the current boss know about it. Drama in the workplace rarely has good outcomes.

 

I mostly lurk a lot but this is a really confusing post. *You, relative J,and your mother have a business. *You just brought in more participants. *Now J's issues are driving off the *necessary new associates? It's your family members you really can't override them from running the business into the ground. *If it's *your decision that's a different question. *If it's a family business you might be worried that your elderly family members being run over into the ground by J. **It sounds like J & T might be your sibling and your father, since you're worried about their relationship with your son who adorz one of them. *If it's your dad's business and he told your mom to get another job you wouldn't be saying you're angry about it. * **

 

About your son, they adore J but you want to protect him from J. (?) *I've had similar feelings between wanting what's best for my kids and struggling to decide if flawed relatives who love them is better or censoring them from their lives is best. *You really have to weigh your ability and strength to step in against the pros and cons when you weigh this risk of your son's relationship with J.

 

I don't think J's The parent of OP's ds because quote (below)

 

Saying J has been like this "since I was little" makes it sound more like and older sibling or cousin or the dad stepdad, aunt, uncle, grandparent. **

 

2) 2- J has been like this since I was little and I am worried about how J (and T’s) relationship will be with DS and how much worse I will feel in the future.

 

I'm asking questions to clarify so the advice posted can be more appropriate. *

[QueenCat]

I don't think J's The parent of OP's ds because quote (below)

 

Saying J has been like this "since I was little" makes it sound more like and older sibling or cousin or the dad stepdad, aunt, uncle, grandparent. **

 

 

I missed that when I read the original post the first time... I think you're on to something here........

[virtual_twins_mom]

Yep, this is a mess. It's hard to just walk away from family, and having to work with a problem family member is even tougher. I agree about getting the Boundaries book. Know what is acceptable to you and not acceptable to you. Deal with others based on that. If you are a Christian, pray, pray, pray. As for medical issues, once you've voiced your observations to that person, leave it be. Blessings, Babette

[happyhomemaker]

I definitely second what Jean said about looking for another job and distancing J from your ds. You need to be in a place where you and your ds are in no way dependent on J. Depending on how old ds is, you might need to have a frank talk about J's actions and habits.

 

T sounds like a people pleaser and someone who is uncomfortable with conflict. Keep a relationship with T if you want, but don't depend on T and don't count on T to help solve the problem with J.

 

Also knowing the family connection of T and J to you and ds would help people when giving advice.

 

It's hard to help someone who is in denial about what's going on, as J seems to be. The best thing you can do now is protect yourself and your ds and be there for J if he/ she decides to let someone help. :grouphug:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I hope Invisible is benefiting from these comments! Bumping this before I finally go to bed; be back tmrw.

 

Thanks, all.

[Little Nyssa]

I also found the post unclear-- to me it makes a difference if the people mentioned are family or not, and I can't understand it. Anyway, :grouphug: to Invisible,

and kudos to Tibbie for the Dear Tibbie forum!

Edited July 15, 2012 by Little Nyssa

[Lang Syne Boardie]

(I'm still up. Folding laundry, found some ironing, when do moms sleep...anyway, here is an update from Invisible, see below. Tibbie D.)

 

Update #1 from Invisible

 

J is my dad and T is my mom.

 

I suppose I am upset that my mom was warned to get another job but not me (first thing I knew about it was when she told me about job hunting). This from a "dad" who said he wanted me on board to make sure me and DS were taken care of financially and so I could continue homeschooling by working from home. The company was started 3 years ago and I've been working for barely enough to live but the intent was always to bring in these outsiders to make it more profitable and for us to do better salary-wise. So I kept at it, did my time, and now at the cusp of signing this deal, J is losing it.

 

I suppose I should have left a long time ago, but he kept harping on the fact that the company wouldn't have gotten this far because someone else with my skills would have cost them a boatload of money.

 

I feel used, I guess. But if you feel used, doesn't that mean that you blame the other person for their actions? I don't know if I can do that since this is just who J is.

 

I don't know if that makes sense; can you tell I'm confused? :/

 

Is it all me? Am I the one who's being weird about J?

[Little Nyssa]

Is it possible to make sure J gets his yearly medical checkup? Maybe some health problem is making him worse, and maybe something that could be treated. I guess it would be hard to get him to go to the Dr, though...

 

I agree with looking for another job.

 

I do have a relative who worked for a low salary for the family company for years (maybe 15 or 20 years?) and was extremely resentful about it. The company did well, but she was very bitter at having to give up her own profession, which she loved. I don't know how it came about that she did this, whether she was guilted into it or what... all I can say is that it did not have a good effect on her.

 

As to, "if I feel used does that mean I blame the person?" Does it have to? Or, can it be, "yes, I feel used, and perhaps the person had mixed motives, but the situation is getting increasingly difficult and I think it is time to call it quits. I forgive him because he clearly has his own issues he is struggling with, and I'll try not to hold it against him, but I need to get out of this situation."

[myfunnybunch]

J is my dad and T is my mom.

 

That was what I thought the first time I read your post, but didn't comment because it depended on the relationship.

 

I think you need the ability to distance yourself and the flexibility to limit interaction for yourself and for your son that working for your family does not allow. It's time to find another job, or for someone to persuade your father to step back from the business and let someone else take over.

 

I feel used, I guess. But if you feel used, doesn't that mean that you blame the other person for their actions?

 

Feeling used is a normal response to being used.

 

:grouphug: If you feel used, it's a cue to examine your situation to find out if you are, indeed, being used. Understanding that you're being used and choosing to set boundaries is different from pointing fingers or complaining without acting further.

 

There is nothing wrong with appropriately placed blame, in the sense of holding or placing responsibility for behaviors or actions.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Cat

[Night Elf]

T sounds like a people pleaser and someone who is uncomfortable with conflict. Keep a relationship with T if you want, but don't depend on T and don't count on T to help solve the problem with J.

 

:iagree: As I was reading through the post, I was drawn to T's role in this. The OP seems to expect a great deal from T who obviously isn't meeting those expectations. It's time to stop expecting behaviors from T that T is unwilling, an perhaps incapable, of giving. T shouldn't be in the loop.

[Parrothead]

(I'm still up. Folding laundry, found some ironing, when do moms sleep...anyway, here is an update from Invisible, see below. Tibbie D.)

 

Update #1 from Invisible

 

J is my dad and T is my mom.

 

I suppose I am upset that my mom was warned to get another job but not me (first thing I knew about it was when she told me about job hunting). This from a "dad" who said he wanted me on board to make sure me and DS were taken care of financially and so I could continue homeschooling by working from home. The company was started 3 years ago and I've been working for barely enough to live but the intent was always to bring in these outsiders to make it more profitable and for us to do better salary-wise. So I kept at it, did my time, and now at the cusp of signing this deal, J is losing it.

 

I suppose I should have left a long time ago, but he kept harping on the fact that the company wouldn't have gotten this far because someone else with my skills would have cost them a boatload of money.

 

I feel used, I guess. But if you feel used, doesn't that mean that you blame the other person for their actions? I don't know if I can do that since this is just who J is.

 

I don't know if that makes sense; can you tell I'm confused? :/

 

Is it all me? Am I the one who's being weird about J?

:grouphug: Sorry, hon. Your parents are quite toxic and it is time to move on. Look into Narcissism. That sounds like what your dad has. It is terrible to have to deal with. Get another job, leave the company and start disentangling yourself and your ds (and dh if necessary) from these people. There is no way a healthy relationship can come from this. :grouphug:

[Blueridge]

(I'm still up. Folding laundry, found some ironing, when do moms sleep...anyway, here is an update from Invisible, see below. Tibbie D.)

 

Update #1 from Invisible

 

J is my dad and T is my mom.

 

I suppose I am upset that my mom was warned to get another job but not me (first thing I knew about it was when she told me about job hunting). This from a "dad" who said he wanted me on board to make sure me and DS were taken care of financially and so I could continue homeschooling by working from home. The company was started 3 years ago and I've been working for barely enough to live but the intent was always to bring in these outsiders to make it more profitable and for us to do better salary-wise. So I kept at it, did my time, and now at the cusp of signing this deal, J is losing it.

 

I suppose I should have left a long time ago, but he kept harping on the fact that the company wouldn't have gotten this far because someone else with my skills would have cost them a boatload of money.

 

I feel used, I guess. But if you feel used, doesn't that mean that you blame the other person for their actions? I don't know if I can do that since this is just who J is.

 

I don't know if that makes sense; can you tell I'm confused? :/

 

Is it all me? Am I the one who's being weird about J?

 

:grouphug: It sounded to me like J was your father, or some male you see as an authority over you. But just look at what he said to you...I bolded it. He may love you in his own way, but he is not showing you love or respect. It is obvious from his statement that he finds you valuable to the company, but was perfectly fine taking financial and emotional advantage of you and your willingness to work cheaply because you are *family*. :glare: This is evidence that your relationship with him is a toxic one as far as business goes. He isn't really helping you by providing you this job. Further evidence that your relationship with him is toxic is the way he minimizes and disrespects you around your ds. You must reclaim your self worth, realize your talents and abilities, and regain your place as protector and provider to your ds. Find a new job as quickly as possible, and lay aside the family loyalties, as difficult as that is to do. Your ds will respect you for it, and so will you, when you take a bold stand and say, 'I will overcome this and be a stronger person'. Allow your ds infrequent visits with J and T as you see fit, always keeping your radar up as protector.

[La Texican]

Crass, but real. *If you need this job to continue homeschooling then you are going to have to be very self sufficient and demanding. *As in you are going to have to stay right on top of this and redirect, redirect, redirect, it's the only was to keep it from going down the crapper. *You are invested in the company you can insist that you have a share in seeing it succeed so you have an inheritance. *It's your blood, sweat, and tears.... If you have that many left to invest.

 

If you don't have that much fight left to give then just be gracious and grateful for the time you took what you could get. *Yes, they paid u peanuts and worked you like a jack9$$ for elephant's wages, but you were able to survive and for a while homeschool. *Maybe at another company you could have made savings. *Maybe if your family were better people you could have home-schooled longer. *But, in this case, at this point, it's done and over. *You would have made different choices if you knew how it would turn out. *You didn't and you can't.*

 

I guess the next question for this thread needs to be, what are you asking? *I missed the question in your post. *I admire the awesomeness of your writing to paint a picture of how it felt to sit where you are. *It was a very evocative piece of writing. *I'm not sure that's helpful. *I'm just giving a compliment where it's due. *Your writing expressed emotional clarity. *Now if we can get some clarity defining your problem and solutions.

[celticmom]

I would be job-hunting but until I found a new job all business related communication with J would be via email or some other documentable method that he could not deny. I would also cc the emails to anyone else who had a valid need to know the information rather than depending on J to pass it on.

 

I think J probably needs to go to the doctor and at the very least have liver function tested.