flasks and beakers on smoothtop? which brand to buy?

[PeterPan]

Ok, hopefully this doesn't sound nutty. If the labs we're looking at for physical science say to use a bunsen burner with a flask or beaker, can we do that on a *smoothtop stove* turned down really low? I saw a "lab hot plate" in the HST catalog, but I don't want to buy that if a stove works just as well, mercy.

 

I googled and found something about home brewers doing it and using something in-between. Never done that before, don't know. :D

 

Maybe it depends on the quality of the glass in the beakers and flasks? Is there a brand to use or avoid? Home Science Tools seems to have their own brand that is significantly less for something it claims is roughly the same thing. Any suggestions or opinions or bad brewing experiences? :)

[go_go_gadget]

I can't answer your question, but the mom in me can't pass this by without warning you to be very, very careful about using a cooking area for chemistry experiments. End of PSA, and I hope someone can help with your question. :)

[Mom22ns]

I've done that with the glass beakers from HST. I got away with it, but I don't know if it is really safe or not. I have alcohol and butane burners now, so I don't do it any more.

[Cindy in FL.]

We got Pyrex from Amazon and haven't had any problems.

 

Cindy

[PeterPan]

We got Pyrex from Amazon and haven't had any problems.

 

Cindy

 

You mean you've used pyrex from amazon on a smoothtop stove and haven't had a problem? Or you mean pyrex on amazon has turned out to be a good deal and good quality? Just wanted to make sure I understood.

[PeterPan]

I've done that with the glass beakers from HST. I got away with it, but I don't know if it is really safe or not. I have alcohol and butane burners now, so I don't do it any more.

 

Ok, you're killing me. WHY would you buy alcohol or butane burners if you were happily using the stove before?? You know what's screwy is I can't even REMEMBER if we did anything with a flame when I was in school. Nuts, I don't think we did anything as cool as the stuff I have planned with dd. I think they skirted the flame thing entirely. I took AP Chem and physics but skipped regular chem and physics and physical science entirely. Needless to say I had a few holes in my experience. :lol:

[PeterPan]

I can't answer your question, but the mom in me can't pass this by without warning you to be very, very careful about using a cooking area for chemistry experiments. End of PSA, and I hope someone can help with your question. :)

 

Gooda pointa! This is a basement kitchen, an alternate thing. Probably the whole area will become a lab. But you're right, I had forgotten there might need to be a little cleaning before dh laid his nicely grilled porkchoppies where we had been working. Good point!

[Mom22ns]

Ok, you're killing me. WHY would you buy alcohol or butane burners if you were happily using the stove before?? You know what's screwy is I can't even REMEMBER if we did anything with a flame when I was in school. Nuts, I don't think we did anything as cool as the stuff I have planned with dd. I think they skirted the flame thing entirely. I took AP Chem and physics but skipped regular chem and physics and physical science entirely. Needless to say I had a few holes in my experience. :lol:

 

We got the alcohol burner first. It let us take some things outside that needed ventilation. Then we got the Butane for a camp stove. It gets much hotter than the alcohol burner and again allows us to work outside which is my preference for Chem labs if the weather is ok. We've also done chem lab in the garage when it was too cold outside, but not really safe anywhere inside :D

 

I remember using a bunsen burner in high school, but I don't remember for what. I used them a lot in college. I love making labs fun and exciting and flame adds excitement.:001_cool:

[jibaker103]

Elizabeth may I ask where are you getting your ideas for physical science labs? Also where are you ordering your supplies from?

[PeterPan]

Elizabeth may I ask where are you getting your ideas for physical science labs? Also where are you ordering your supplies from?

 

Ideas nothing. I got the lab manuals for the Prentice Hall Concepts in Action text and the BJU physical science, and chopped 'em up, correlated 'em, and put 'em into a notebook by weeks. I'm ambitious! :D

 

Seriously, she's one who remembers stuff she does. Science isn't her favorite subject, so I figured we'd shake things up this year and see what happens. When she was younger we used the textbook as a spine or syllabus and did kits and models and things instead. Then we tried traditional textbook study, total flop. She could do it, but it took tons of time and sucked her soul dry as the Mohave. Why I can't get my history-lover interested in mitochondria is BEYOND ME. Believe me I tried! So we're going back to what has worked in the past. We'll do stuff and read/discuss just enough to fill in the cracks. If it works, it works and I'm golden. If it doesn't, I tried.

 

If it works, my plan is to keep going the following year with the Illustrated Home Guide books. If it doesn't work, don't know. :lol:

[PeterPan]

We got the alcohol burner first. It let us take some things outside that needed ventilation. Then we got the Butane for a camp stove. It gets much hotter than the alcohol burner and again allows us to work outside which is my preference for Chem labs if the weather is ok. We've also done chem lab in the garage when it was too cold outside, but not really safe anywhere inside :D

 

I remember using a bunsen burner in high school, but I don't remember for what. I used them a lot in college. I love making labs fun and exciting and flame adds excitement.:001_cool:

 

You're so wild! :lol: I hadn't thought much about ventilation beyond the fact that I knew there would be a hood available. There's a hood over the stove and it vents to the exterior. You're right that flames WOULD enhance the fun, till the toddler got involved. :auto:

 

Guess I'll have to look at the labs very carefully and see. I don't RECALL seeing anything outlandishly explosive or dangerous when I went through them. They're meant for classrooms, so you'd *think* they'd have been checked for all that. I'm not pulling them from the internet or from a wildman's guide to chemistry. :lol:

 

(such a book should exist, right? maybe the illustrated guide is?)

 

So anyway, this is the BJU labs plus many of them from PH CIA. Should be pretty tame stuff, right?

 

Hold it, you're doing your labs over a CAMP stove??? I've looked at those, because I keep trying to convince dh he wants to camp. :D

[jibaker103]

Ideas nothing. I got the lab manuals for the Prentice Hall Concepts in Action text and the BJU physical science, and chopped 'em up, correlated 'em, and put 'em into a notebook by weeks. I'm ambitious! :D

 

Seriously, she's one who remembers stuff she does. Science isn't her favorite subject, so I figured we'd shake things up this year and see what happens. When she was younger we used the textbook as a spine or syllabus and did kits and models and things instead. Then we tried traditional textbook study, total flop. She could do it, but it took tons of time and sucked her soul dry as the Mohave. Why I can't get my history-lover interested in mitochondria is BEYOND ME. Believe me I tried! So we're going back to what has worked in the past. We'll do stuff and read/discuss just enough to fill in the cracks. If it works, it works and I'm golden. If it doesn't, I tried.

 

If it works, my plan is to keep going the following year with the Illustrated Home Guide books. If it doesn't work, don't know. :lol:

 

I am using PH Concepts in Action and I have the lab manual. When I looked in it I became completely overwhelmed! I will try again on a day I am calm and collected, lol. Do you have any recommendations on which ones I should take a closer look at. The only thing I remember from high school science is dissecting a fetal pig!

[Mom22ns]

For Physical Science I used labs from PH CIA and just a couple of DIVE labs (one in particular that gave a very satisfying small explosion):lol:

 

For Chemistry this year I'm using the Illustrated Guide. I have picked my labs and made my supply list, but I really didn't examine them carefully to check for ventilation needs and excitement level... maybe I'd better double check just to make sure they live up to previous standards.:D

 

The camp stove I got for camping and the fact that it is much hotter and able to be used for labs was just a bonus. If you can rig that the other way around... ;)

[PeterPan]

I am using PH Concepts in Action and I have the lab manual. When I looked in it I became completely overwhelmed! I will try again on a day I am calm and collected, lol. Do you have any recommendations on which ones I should take a closer look at. The only thing I remember from high school science is dissecting a fetal pig!

 

Well I can tell you what I did, and you see what you think. One, I ripped out all the labs for both books and started correlating them by topic. The Bob Jones ones are, in general, actually harder (if you can imagine), so they CIA ones suddenly seem less intimidating.

 

Two, it took me quite a while to figure out that all that print is on the pages because they have this preparatory thought process they're wanting to get out. Name slips my mind of who here on the boards used CIA, but I *think* she said it's supposed to lead to write-ups or something. (see corners being cut) So the meat is in the middle. You read it and then fill in the blanks at the beginning. Then you do the lab and fill in the blanks at the end. Screwy compared to say BJU which is set up chronologically, just read and plow. Not CIA, lol. I like thought thought process in CIA though.

 

Three, and this was my one moment of brilliance. I got dd to sit with me and read through all the supply lists in the BJU stuff to see where the PH CIA added extra, etc. That means she has actually been through the lists, recognizes these names, and is starting to feel some ownership, like this actually what SHE'S doing. Previsualization. :D

 

The PH CIA *text* looks really tough, from the samples I've seen online, but the labs aren't terrible. They seem more like just doing, predicting, inferring. BJU's labs actually have them doing lots of math in the labs. That math gets done for CIA in the textbook. So you're going to be fine. Just give yourself permission to do it imperfectly. Or maybe I have something different from what other people have? http://www.amazon.com/PHYSICAL-SCIENCE-CONCEPTS-ACTION-EARTH/dp/0130699756/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1342313190&sr=8-7&keywords=concepts+in+action+physical+science This is what I have.

 

So you haven't bought your supplies yet either? I'm still doing my scouting. You know you could just do something else for the labs. DIVE has suggested labs, doesn't it? Or LoriD had made posts about chem and physics kits she used for labs. Then you could have a kit for the supplies.

Edited July 15, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

For Physical Science I used labs from PH CIA and just a couple of DIVE labs (one in particular that gave a very satisfying small explosion):lol:

 

For Chemistry this year I'm using the Illustrated Guide. I have picked my labs and made my supply list, but I really didn't examine them carefully to check for ventilation needs and excitement level... maybe I'd better double check just to make sure they live up to previous standards.:D

 

The camp stove I got for camping and the fact that it is much hotter and able to be used for labs was just a bonus. If you can rig that the other way around... ;)

 

Ok, logistics question here. The burners on the camp stove are kind of large, right? HST and other places talk about a micro burner. Does that matter? How does the stove getting small enough a flame for the beaker? You just leave it low and it works? And do you use the grating of the camp burner or a stand above that? Or you make a rip roaring fire from your camp stove and having the ring stand several inches up in the air with the beaker? Now I know why your version is so exciting! I clearly had missed the potential here! :lol:

 

So where are the explosive labs? Everything I'm seeing is so tame. :D

[Mom22ns]

Hmmm, DIVE has one that created a small noxious explosion, flame, bang smoke all fun. There used to be a sample of it on their website, but he has switched the sample to something innocuous instead.:glare:

 

PH was pretty tame. I don't remember anything exploding. The first day I did a demo where we dissolved some aluminum foil in Copper Chloride. Smoke, bubbling, dissolving. We looked for all the fun we could find and found quite a bit. I haven't looked through my CIA for awhile to refresh my memory though.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Momto2Ns

[TheHomeScientist]

Other than the obvious issue of using lab chemicals in a food preparation area, you should be fine using borosilicate glass vessels (Pyrex, Bomex, Borosil, etc.) on a stove burner or hotplate. There are two issues: the actual temperature of the heat source and how fast you heat up and cool down the glass.

 

If you're heating the glass vessels with a gas flame, use a wire gauze between the flame and the vessel to protect the vessel. The gauze spreads the heat, preventing hot spots from developing on the bottom of the vessel.

 

Most electric heat sources (stove burner, hotplate, etc.) don't reach temperatures high enough to damage the glass, although it still doesn't hurt to use the wire gauze to spread and moderate the heat. Place the cool vessel on the burner before you turn on the heat. Use a low setting to heat the vessel gradually, and you should be fine.

[PeterPan]

Other than the obvious issue of using lab chemicals in a food preparation area, you should be fine using borosilicate glass vessels (Pyrex, Bomex, Borosil, etc.) on a stove burner or hotplate. There are two issues: the actual temperature of the heat source and how fast you heat up and cool down the glass.

 

If you're heating the glass vessels with a gas flame, use a wire gauze between the flame and the vessel to protect the vessel. The gauze spreads the heat, preventing hot spots from developing on the bottom of the vessel.

 

Most electric heat sources (stove burner, hotplate, etc.) don't reach temperatures high enough to damage the glass, although it still doesn't hurt to use the wire gauze to spread and moderate the heat. Place the cool vessel on the burner before you turn on the heat. Use a low setting to heat the vessel gradually, and you should be fine.

 

Ooo good, that's exactly what I needed to know! Thank you!!! :)

[Cindy in FL.]

Sorry for the vagueness of my prior post. I've used Pyrex beakers on my smooth top stove with no problem. I ordered them from Amazon for a fair price. I have Amazon Prime, so I tend to use Amazon whenever possible/reasonable.

 

Cindy

[jibaker103]

Thank you Debbie and Elizabeth for the information, it definitely helps! I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind:

1. How many labs should be completed during the year? How many are you planning or did you do?

2. I was looking online and it seems the most expensive item is the triple-beam balance. Is that where the digital scale comes into play instead? Can I use a food or postage scale instead?

3. Where do you buy your chemicals? Is there a cheat sheet to convert the technical names to everyday ones?

4. Amazon sells some stuff a lot cheaper than HST. Are there any brands or types of items I should avoid?

 

I appreciate any information anyone has!

[PeterPan]

Well I have a triple beam balance, and I sort of wish I hadn't bought it. We used it maybe a couple times in elementary. I'd get a proper digital scale that measures to .001 and be done with it. HST had one for $60-ish.

 

I'll tell you what I did, and you can laugh at the contortions. If you go to the chemistry sets listed at elementalscientific.net http://www.elementalscientific.net/store/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=17 you find set breakdowns for the Illustrated Guide to Home Chem Experiments. Nut that I am, I figured I ought to buy things with a view to what we'd use again if we go that route in a year or two, kwim? Happily, the lists I had for my labs coincided nicely on the hardware and glassware. I didn't *buy* from them, because I didn't need everything right now. But I'm just saying I looked to see if I was headed the right direction and if the pieces of glass I was plunking out for this year would at least get re-used. If that makes sense, lol.

 

Then I basically just opened up HST's website and ordered it all. My money is gone and my dh doesn't know. :D I just don't have energy to compare every. single. thing. I've concluded it's possible to substitute about anything if there's no money. Nothing says it has to be beakers. A lot of the chemicals occur in other forms like bleach or epsom salts. I was just kind of at that tired point where I figured it needed to be done. So I looked at HST and when I saw a review by Julie in KY for the item I bought it. :D

 

Oh, I only bought 1/2 year's worth, and still my money is gone. A lot of it was hardware stuff like beakers and graduated cylinders and things. I'm trying to think if there was anything screwy or that HST didn't have. Turns out magnesium chloride is de-icer. Calcium carbonate chips are broken up chalk. Ethyl alchohol they had but it was expensive. I'm thinking we might have some around somewhere. Lauric acid I couldn't figure out. Something about it comes from coconut. It's for a density lab, so probably something else would work fine. On the spring scales, I don't like the green flat ones (my toddler destroys them), so I splurged on the tubular ones. Hopefully they're good. Carbon grains I never figured out.

 

That took me to the 1/2 way point on my list of things that were used by CIA that were *not* on the BJU PS list. Then CIA and BJU switch over to chemicals. I figure I'll buy those at christmas when they run another 10% coupon.

 

On the glass, I went with the HST, because at this time the pyrex, best as I could tell, is 50%+ more. I figure dd is likely to break stuff anyway, lol.

 

It just takes some time to work through the lists in each lab and see what you need. Or your tm will have compiled lists. I'm really proud of myself for doing it. I feel more on top of it. I always wondered how those "super moms" thought up cool science stuff. Now I'm realizing they just bought the kits from HST, duh... Basically EVERYTHING from the physical science section and chem sections of HST applied. I liked that I wasn't sorting through lots of other stuff I didn't need. Pretty much there was one choice and it was what the curriculum was calling for. It was more just finding that item rather than a difficulty of chosing between items, if that made sense. (most of the time)

 

You can do this! :)

[Mom22ns]

Thank you Debbie and Elizabeth for the information, it definitely helps! I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind:

1. How many labs should be completed during the year? How many are you planning or did you do?

We shoot for one lab/week. I do additional "mini-labs" and demonstrations

2. I was looking online and it seems the most expensive item is the triple-beam balance. Is that where the digital scale comes into play instead? Can I use a food or postage scale instead?

I use two digital scales. One is a food scale that measure to .1 grams. The other one is a digital pocket scale that measures to .01 grams

3. Where do you buy your chemicals? Is there a cheat sheet to convert the technical names to everyday ones?

I buy most of my chemicals through HST. I don't know of a cheat sheet, but some lab books such as the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry give options for alternative places to find some things.

4. Amazon sells some stuff a lot cheaper than HST. Are there any brands or types of items I should avoid?

Not that I know of. I price shop quite a bit.

 

I appreciate any information anyone has!

 

Good luck!

 

I hadn't checked Amazon for lab supplies so I went and checked prices agains HST for my list for this year. Amazon was cheaper on one out of 33 items that I'm buying and as much as double the price for several. YMMV

Edited July 15, 2012 by Momto2Ns

[jibaker103]

Thank you both, I don't what I would do without you!!!

 

Before I start breaking down your advice and researching, I would like to ask what you all think of this kit?

 

I have a feeling this may be the boring way to go about labs but is there anything in this kit that might be helpful in cutting expense or in difficulty that I should keep my eye out for while researching and compiling my lab list?

[PeterPan]

Well I think it's GREAT to get a kit in the sense of getting the small sizes on the chemicals. On the hardware, to me what you're deciding is how much stuff you want them to have to explore with. My dd learns better with that doing, so that's where I'm putting my money. But there's always *another* way of getting there. Like the BJU lab tm was pointing out that you could use fancy weights from HST (hooks, all measured out in metric, come in sets) or you could just use washers or other things you have around the house. I bought something called an overflow can that the BJU lesson on density specifies, but actually the CIA lab gets around it just fine. So that's another way to save money, by asking if you really HAVE to have that thing or if you can substitute.

 

And yes, round about midnight last night I wondered why I was pulling together equipment to fit a lab manual rather than buying a lab manual that came with equipment, lol. But that thought will send you in circles if you let it. :D

[Dicentra]

Just wanted to point out (in case someone was unaware) that "TheHomeScientist" poster is the actual author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments, Mr. Robert Bruce Thompson. :001_smile: Since it's being discussed and there may be questions regarding the equipment, you can get answers right from the horse's mouth! :D

 

(Note: I'm not calling Mr. Thompson a horse - please don't take offense, Mr. Thompson! :D I'm also not affiliated with his company in any way - I just think it's fantastic that he's willing to be a member of this forum and share his knowledge and expertise.)

[PeterPan]

Oh yeah, definitely knew that. :D

[jibaker103]

Ok, I am going in!!!! I will probably surface in a couple of days with my findings and more questions. Thank you all for your information and input, it has been invaluable. If I can return the favor in any way let me know!

[PeterPan]

Good luck! :)

[TheHomeScientist]

Just wanted to point out (in case someone was unaware) that "TheHomeScientist" poster is the actual author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments, Mr. Robert Bruce Thompson. :001_smile: Since it's being discussed and there may be questions regarding the equipment, you can get answers right from the horse's mouth! :D

 

(Note: I'm not calling Mr. Thompson a horse - please don't take offense, Mr. Thompson! :D I'm also not affiliated with his company in any way - I just think it's fantastic that he's willing to be a member of this forum and share his knowledge and expertise.)

 

A horse is a horse, of course, of course.

 

One list of alternative sources for chemicals that people may find useful is http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk/chemicals/

 

It's a British site, but they also include many US companies.

 

Other good companies that sell small quantities of lab chemicals, often at excellent prices, are:

 

http://www.elementalscientific.net (excellent prices; sometimes slow delivery)

 

and

 

http://hms-beagle.com/

 

and

 

http://www.cynmar.com

[Julie of KY]

Just some more thoughts to some of the questions posted...

 

I use my glassware on the stovetop all the time. Technically, it is a extra stovetop burner bought just for chemistry so it can be abused by me, my students, and chemicals. I've never had trouble heating glass on it.

 

I buy all my glassware from HST - generally it's not cheaper anywhere else and I love their service.

 

HST is a good place to buy a few chemicals, but if you are buying much it is cheaper elsewhere. As mentioned above Elemental Scientific sells small amounts of many, many chemicals to individuals at great prices. There service can be very slow however.

 

... Home Scientist has been a great resource over the years as I've taught the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments to many students.

[PeterPan]

Just some more thoughts to some of the questions posted...

 

I use my glassware on the stovetop all the time. Technically, it is a extra stovetop burner bought just for chemistry so it can be abused by me, my students, and chemicals. I've never had trouble heating glass on it.

 

I buy all my glassware from HST - generally it's not cheaper anywhere else and I love their service.

 

HST is a good place to buy a few chemicals, but if you are buying much it is cheaper elsewhere. As mentioned above Elemental Scientific sells small amounts of many, many chemicals to individuals at great prices. There service can be very slow however.

 

... Home Scientist has been a great resource over the years as I've taught the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments to many students.

 

Julie, I so appreciate you taking the time to reply! And I REALLY appreciate all those reviews you made at HST. That must have taken a lot of time! It made it SO easy to sort through things. Well, not easy on my wallet, but at least easy on my brain. I just said if it's what Julie likes, I'm getting it, and boom my cart filled right up. :lol:

 

Well I'm glad to know I'm on the right track! That HST glass is what I got. Now I'm left wondering if the BJU and CIA labs are going to have a bang or if I need to look for a little something for that. :D