Homeschooled teen forced to live in family chicken coop

[Denisemomof4]

Unfortunately there are many many cases where foster/adopt children are not treated the same as biological children or treated well at all. This isn't outside the realm of possibility and first and foremost the child's welfare has to come first and IF the tip is found credible and there is evidence that the child is in immediate danger, they will be removed immediately. The child is believed first and foremost and that is how it should be. However investigations take time, and a child's life could be in danger if they are with an abusive parent while an investigation goes on. People complain that they are taken too early when it turns out to be something else not abuse-related, but then they complain if little action is taken in the beginning when it turns out to be abusive. What is the lesser of two evils?

 

I just want to mention that even the professionals tell parents they can NOT parent their troubled adopted kid like the others, adopted or bio. You can NOT discipline them the same way either. And to make things appear even worse, ignorant people judge the mom for keeping the troubled child on a tighter reign or for having to treat them differently.

 

In my own experience with my own RAD, people don't understand why dd12 gets so much freedom while my RAD doesn't. They couldn't possibly understand that freedom ALWAYS sets my RAD up for failure and actually makes HER feel unsafe. To those NOT in the know who are looking in, it would look like what you describe. To my close friends and everyone who knows me and also has fostered, adopted, or raised mentally ill kids, they understand and handle things the same way.

 

And even my RAD kid will thank me for the lengths I have gone to. She knows I work hard to not set her up for failure and I also work hard to make her feel safe. She understands she can't handle freedom, I'm not punishing her, I am looking out for her best interest. We talk about this stuff All The Time. She knows full well she is not parented differently because she is adopted, she is parented the way SHE needs to be parented.

[Denisemomof4]

Just as likely? Really? After a 6 week investigation?

No, it isn't "just as likely".

 

i know you are very eager to jump on people and start problems. If you look at my later response, I MENTION THAT IT LOOKS LIKE THERE MAY BE GUILT SINCE ARRESTS WERE MADE WEEKS AFTER THE INVESTIGATION BEGAN.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I just want to mention that even the professionals tell parents they can NOT parent their troubled adopted kid like the others, adopted or bio. You can NOT discipline them the same way either. And to make things appear even worse, ignorant people judge the mom for keeping the troubled child on a tighter reign or for having to treat them differently.

 

In my own experience with my own RAD, people don't understand why dd12 gets so much freedom while my RAD doesn't. They couldn't possibly understand that freedom ALWAYS sets my RAD up for failure and actually makes HER feel unsafe. To those NOT in the know who are looking in, it would look like what you describe. To my close friends and everyone who knows me and also has fostered, adopted, or raised mentally ill kids, they understand and handle things the same way.

 

And even my RAD kid will thank me for the lengths I have gone to. She knows I work hard to not set her up for failure and I also work hard to make her feel safe. She understands she can't handle freedom, I'm not punishing her, I am looking out for her best interest. We talk about this stuff All The Time. She knows full well she is not parented differently because she is adopted, she is parented the way SHE needs to be parented.

 

But surely your daughter is not locked into a chicken coop or outhouse, or forced to wear a shock collar, or made to dig trenches in the summer heat while her siblings supervise.

 

I really think you're arguing for the wrong side here, Denise.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

i know you are very eager to jump on people and start problems. If you look at my later response, I MENTION THAT IT LOOKS LIKE THERE MAY BE GUILT SINCE ARRESTS WERE MADE WEEKS AFTER THE INVESTIGATION BEGAN.

 

I am not starting a problem. You and someone else keep ignoring facts to make it sound as if these parents were somehow wronged. The investigation was handled well (on the surface at least), and AS REPORTED, there is no reason to start questioning whether the daughter is lying.

 

In addition, claiming that it is "just as likely" that parents charged with serious abuse are being victimized by their children is out of line, and effectively claiming that abuse allegations are lies close to 50% of the time.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But surely your daughter is not locked into a chicken coop or outhouse, or forced to wear a shock collar, or made to dig trenches in the summer heat while her siblings supervise.

 

I really think you're arguing for the wrong side here, Denise.

 

Exactly. Treated/parented "differently" does not mean treated/parented "worse", which is what occurred here.

[Coffeetime]

But surely your daughter is not locked into a chicken coop or outhouse, or forced to wear a shock collar, or made to dig trenches in the summer heat while her siblings supervise.

 

I really think you're arguing for the wrong side here, Denise.

 

I don't think she's really arguing for the parents. ;) I think she just wanted a little more evidence (based on her own personal experiences) and got jumped on rudely by someone. And now she's trying to help this person understand WHY she wanted more evidence. That's how I see it, at least. :001_smile:

[clarkacademy]

I don't think she's really arguing for the parents. ;) I think she just wanted a little more evidence (based on her own personal experiences) and got jumped on rudely by someone. And now she's trying to help this person understand WHY she wanted more evidence. That's how I see it, at least. :001_smile:

 

 

:iagree:Anyone who has read the things Denise has posted or privately spoken to her know she is the last to stick up for an abuser. Due to her unique parenting situation she also knows how a child can be crazy in their lies and damaging with their words. She is no longer wearing blinders that every child is totally honest because sadly she knows differently.

[Aelwydd]

I found a video: http://www.myfoxal.com/story/19001118/2012/07/11/chicken-coop-case-teen-allegedly-wore-a-shock-collar

At one point, the reporter says that the mother told authorities that 'she was doing what the bible told her to do'...:crying:

 

Hmph. Aren't they always?

[Parrothead]

:iagree:Anyone who has read the things Denise has posted or privately spoken to her know she is the last to stick up for an abuser. Due to her unique parenting situation she also knows how a child can be crazy in their lies and damaging with their words. She is no longer wearing blinders that every child is totally honest because sadly she knows differently.

:iagree:

Hmph. Aren't they always?

Yes, more often than not. :glare:

[at the beach]

Where is the rush to judgement? CPS started investigating this case in May, removed the child, did further investigation, and arrested the parents in July.

 

I just want to point out that CPS doesn't arrest people. In addition to the CPS case and investigation, because these parents have been arrested, there would have also been a criminal investigation by law enforcement that resulted in criminal charges and the arrests. The children's services case and the criminal case are separate cases in different courts.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I just want to point out that CPS doesn't arrest people. In addition to the CPS case and investigation, because these parents have been arrested, there would have also been a criminal investigation by law enforcement that resulted in criminal charges and the arrests. The children's services case and the criminal case are separate cases in different courts.

 

You are correct, and the sheriff's department was involved from the start of the investigation.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Also, it is not typical for people who have their children removed by CPS to have a criminal case. Most never do though we foster parents who have to deal with the ramifications of the abuse/neglect get quite angry for our children about it.

 

Six weeks, investigations by two entities? Both deciding there is a case against the parents. The child was likely being abused. I don't think it is "Just as likely" the parents are the victims. I still do think it is very likely the child was troubled. It is possible they just picked on her; but it seems more likely that they escalated because they couldn't remediate her behavior. BUT it doesn't mean her behavior was EXTREMELY bad either. I know that I've gotten frustrated about pretty little things that they just wouldn't stop. In time, I decided 7months or 15months isn't very long considering.....

[Denisemomof4]

But surely your daughter is not locked into a chicken coop or outhouse, or forced to wear a shock collar, or made to dig trenches in the summer heat while her siblings supervise.

 

I really think you're arguing for the wrong side here, Denise.

 

Of course not!!! And, myy dd is happy and loves her family the best she can.

 

Now they are saying this girl dug trenches in the heat while the siblings watched? That is abusive on ALL the kids!

 

I am not arguing on any side. I know pepple who don't know better regularly judge adoptive parents when their adopted kid is treated differently, and that kid is treated differently IN THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST and BY THE EXPERTS ADVICE. But CLEARLY that doesn't apply to the family spoken of above, if everything is true.

 

But about kids being treated differently in other cases, I can understand how outsiders perceive things and I am so sad for the parents who are harshly judged for doing what must be done to help the child. It is commonplace in the adoptive communities that certain kids MUST be treated differently, and outsiders harshly judge.

[Denisemomof4]

I don't think she's really arguing for the parents. ;) I think she just wanted a little more evidence (based on her own personal experiences) and got jumped on rudely by someone. And now she's trying to help this person understand WHY she wanted more evidence. That's how I see it, at least. :001_smile:

 

That's absolutely correct. Thank you. But like I said in another post which was ignored, someone (Tibbie?) said how the investigation took place and THEN there were arrests. That does show guilt on the parent's part. If they did treat the child like that..... Then they get what is coming to them.

[Denisemomof4]

Also, it is not typical for people who have their children removed by CPS to have a criminal case. Most never do though we foster parents who have to deal with the ramifications of the abuse/neglect get quite angry for our children about it.

 

Six weeks, investigations by two entities? Both deciding there is a case against the parents. The child was likely being abused. I don't think it is "Just as likely" the parents are the victims. I still do think it is very likely the child was troubled. It is possible they just picked on her; but it seems more likely that they escalated because they couldn't remediate her behavior. BUT it doesn't mean her behavior was EXTREMELY bad either. I know that I've gotten frustrated about pretty little things that they just wouldn't stop. In time, I decided 7months or 15months isn't very long considering.....

 

:iagree:

 

My opinion about the parents can be the victims here is no longer one I hold. If that matters.:tongue_smilie:

 

I can understand parents WHO KNOW NO BETTER, thinking that they will get stricter and stricter in the hopes of making a break through with the child. Unfortunately what the parents don't know is that never works. Clearly, when this happens, this happens when parents have NOT educated themselves on how to handle their kid's crazy and disruptive behaviors. Or if they did, they just decided to ignore what they read.

 

What happened to this child is wrong on every level and we can all agree on that. We can also agree the parents were horrid people to resort to such measures.

[cin]

Denise, as a fellow adoptive parent, I understand exactly where you were coming from. I have seen situations that would make some boardies' hair curl. And no, I won't share them. That would definitely send the moderator into overtime! When a story has an older adoptee involved, ANYTHING is possible. Even if the parents are determined to be guilty, I will still have a small percentage of doubt. Some of those kids have 2 personalities (not technically). They clean up and can come across SO believable. The fact that they homeschool adds more doubt for me. Homeschoolers can be targets for neighbors and CPS. I'm not saying that they always are, but if you get the wrong CPS worker, you're doomed.

 

In this particular situation, I have not read all the links, so I can't form an opinion yet. I just wanted to let you know, Denise, that I understand what you were saying.

Edited July 13, 2012 by cin
she changed her view, so I changed the tense.

[cin]

 

In addition, claiming that it is "just as likely" that parents charged with serious abuse are being victimized by their children is out of line, and effectively claiming that abuse allegations are lies close to 50% of the time.

 

ChocolateReign, have you ever been around a family with a RAD child? Like many other psychiatric disorders, there is a spectrum, so not all children exhibit all the symptoms. But here is a list.

 

Symptoms, Causes and Research

 

 

Symptoms

 

•Intense control battles, very bossy and argumentative; defiance and anger

•Resists affection on parental terms

•Lack of eye contact, especially with parents - will look into your eyes when lying

•Manipulative - superficially charming and engaging

•Indiscriminately affectionate with strangers

•Poor peer relationships

•Steals

•Lies about the obvious

•Lack of conscience - shows no remorse

•Destructive to property, self and/or others

•Lack of impulse control

•Hypervigilant/Hyperactive

•Learning lags/delays

•Speech and language problems

•Incessant chatter and/or questions

•Inappropriately demanding and/or clingy

•Food issues - hordes, gorges, refuses to eat, eats strange things, hides food

•Fascinated with fire, blood, gore, weapons, evil

•Very concerned about tiny hurts but brushes off big hurts

•Parents appear hostile and angry

•The child was neglected and/or physically abused in the first three years of life

 

These are the reasons that some of us don't take stories about adoptive children being abused at face value. Especially if the child is adopted when they are older.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

ChocolateReign, have you ever been around a family with a RAD child? Like many other psychiatric disorders, there is a spectrum, so not all children exhibit all the symptoms. But here is a list.

 

Symptoms, Causes and Research

 

 

Symptoms

 

•Intense control battles, very bossy and argumentative; defiance and anger

•Resists affection on parental terms

•Lack of eye contact, especially with parents - will look into your eyes when lying

•Manipulative - superficially charming and engaging

•Indiscriminately affectionate with strangers

•Poor peer relationships

•Steals

•Lies about the obvious

•Lack of conscience - shows no remorse

•Destructive to property, self and/or others

•Lack of impulse control

•Hypervigilant/Hyperactive

•Learning lags/delays

•Speech and language problems

•Incessant chatter and/or questions

•Inappropriately demanding and/or clingy

•Food issues - hordes, gorges, refuses to eat, eats strange things, hides food

•Fascinated with fire, blood, gore, weapons, evil

•Very concerned about tiny hurts but brushes off big hurts

•Parents appear hostile and angry

•The child was neglected and/or physically abused in the first three years of life

 

These are the reasons that some of us don't take stories about adoptive children being abused at face value. Especially if the child is adopted when they are older.

 

And what does this have to do with the price of beans?

Just because a child is adoptive, you cannot assume they have RAD.

Just because parents are accused of abusing an adoptive child you cannot assume they are innocent because the child is lying.

In this case, CPS received a tip. They went to the home with the sheriff's office. They found enough reason to get an order to remove the child. After additional investigation (roughly 6 weeks after the first visit), it was determined evidence was found to arrest the parents for abuse.

 

Why is RAD even part of this discussion?

[cin]

And what does this have to do with the price of beans?

Just because a child is adoptive, you cannot assume they have RAD.

Just because parents are accused of abusing an adoptive child you cannot assume they are innocent because the child is lying.

In this case, CPS received a tip. They went to the home with the sheriff's office. They found enough reason to get an order to remove the child. After additional investigation (roughly 6 weeks after the first visit), it was determined evidence was found to arrest the parents for abuse.

 

Why is RAD even part of this discussion?

 

Well, actually it has nothing to do with the price of beans. But it DOES explain WHY some of us were not willing to immediately jump on the 'horrible parents' wagon. Some of us have personal experience with RAD, either through our own adoptions, or those in our circles.

 

The girl is 15, and was adopted in 2007, which means she was adopted around 10 yrs. RAD is more common and tends to be more severe in children who are older when they are adopted. It does not mean that she IS RAD, just that the odds are higher. It does not mean that she is lying, it just left some of us with a bit of doubt. For that matter, Innocence Project proves that just because charges were filed or someone has been arrested does not mean that they are guilty.

 

We didn't say that she DID have RAD, we just took it into consideration when we read the article. And our opinions were not well-received, so I thought I'd let you and others know WHY we had those opinions.

 

 

 

:leaving:

[Denisemomof4]

Denise, as a fellow adoptive parent, I understand exactly where you were coming from. I have seen situations that would make some boardies' hair curl. And no, I won't share them. That would definitely send the moderator into overtime! When a story has an older adoptee involved, ANYTHING is possible. Even if the parents are determined to be guilty, I will still have a small percentage of doubt. Some of those kids have 2 personalities (not technically). They clean up and can come across SO believable. The fact that they homeschool adds more doubt for me. Homeschoolers can be targets for neighbors and CPS. I'm not saying that they always are, but if you get the wrong CPS worker, you're doomed.

 

In this particular situation, I have not read all the links, so I can't form an opinion yet. I just wanted to let you know, Denise, that I understand what you were saying.

 

Although very few will understand this response of yours, Cin, I agree with you 100%. I have seen so much from adoptive and foster moms, have my own story, read about so much on my online forums. I know how believable these kids are. I know the damage they can cause. It is truly Mind boggling.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Denisemomof4
Spelling

[zimom]

Although very few will understand this response of yours, Cin, I agree with you 100%. I have seen so much from adoptive and foster moms, have my own story, read about so much on my online forums. I know how believable these kids are. I know the damage they can cause. It is truly Mind boggling.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

It is commonplace in the adoptive communities that certain kids MUST be treated differently, and outsiders harshly judge.

 

On the last thread that we had, I mentioned that my children were being inappropriate and that I was uncomfy with what they were doing. I also could think of only one thing to stop it and that would have required me to possibly upset a lot of people (people I like and consider a main support). I talked to an elder and he said that people may not understand but they'd forgive and get over it. I immediately put my idea into place. The very first night, a 15yo (whose family has also adopted a few kids, two with attachment disorder, possibly RAD) questioned me like I had three heads. I told her, "Brother C said the friends would forgive us." SHe responded, "but your kids may not." OUCH! I didn't even get mad though. 1) she's a child and 2) I have to do whatever it takes to help them! And I do believe that this will help them long term.

 

BTW, it has gone *very* well (been about 5 weeks). The first week, the kids were a bit pout-ish about it. After that, they and the friends made it fun :) We had an incident last week but I just corrected it and it ended fine. I now need to come up with a great idea for when training new foster parents...

 

Anyway, I know the 15yo isn't the only one that thinks it is just mean and that the kids will resent me. I also know she (and anyone else) is wrong. The kids simply do better with stricter limits and with more clarity. And learning to attach to me (which means they can't be allowed to be superficially intimate with others) is pretty high on the list. And we still have such a long way to go.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, actually it has nothing to do with the price of beans. But it DOES explain WHY some of us were not willing to immediately jump on the 'horrible parents' wagon. Some of us have personal experience with RAD, either through our own adoptions, or those in our circles.

 

The girl is 15, and was adopted in 2007, which means she was adopted around 10 yrs. RAD is more common and tends to be more severe in children who are older when they are adopted. It does not mean that she IS RAD, just that the odds are higher. It does not mean that she is lying, it just left some of us with a bit of doubt. For that matter, Innocence Project proves that just because charges were filed or someone has been arrested does not mean that they are guilty.

 

We didn't say that she DID have RAD, we just took it into consideration when we read the article. And our opinions were not well-received, so I thought I'd let you and others know WHY we had those opinions.

 

 

But if someone actually fully read the article, they could easily see that the sheriff's office and CPS didn't jump to conclusions. We had certain posters talking about relying on tips/lack of investigation when in reality that wasn't the case here.

I don't get the point of jumping and yelling RAD without a reason to do so.

[Denisemomof4]

On the last thread that we had, I mentioned that my children were being inappropriate and that I was uncomfy with what they were doing. I also could think of only one thing to stop it and that would have required me to possibly upset a lot of people (people I like and consider a main support). I talked to an elder and he said that people may not understand but they'd forgive and get over it. I immediately put my idea into place. The very first night, a 15yo (whose family has also adopted a few kids, two with attachment disorder, possibly RAD) questioned me like I had three heads. I told her, "Brother C said the friends would forgive us." SHe responded, "but your kids may not." OUCH! I didn't even get mad though. 1) she's a child and 2) I have to do whatever it takes to help them! And I do believe that this will help them long term.

 

BTW, it has gone *very* well (been about 5 weeks). The first week, the kids were a bit pout-ish about it. After that, they and the friends made it fun :) We had an incident last week but I just corrected it and it ended fine. I now need to come up with a great idea for when training new foster parents...

 

Anyway, I know the 15yo isn't the only one that thinks it is just mean and that the kids will resent me. I also know she (and anyone else) is wrong. The kids simply do better with stricter limits and with more clarity. And learning to attach to me (which means they can't be allowed to be superficially intimate with others) is pretty high on the list. And we still have such a long way to go.

 

It is hard to block comments and judgment out but you will learn that ignorant outsiders aren't worth the mental drain. How easy it is for those NOT in the know to judge!

 

I want to encourage you to keep being strong. I know you have done your own research, felt your own shock, experienced your own kid's pain. I know you know this will be the most DIFFICULT road you will ever travel. Keeping in mind that all kids respond differently, I think it is pretty common knowledge that MY RAD kid is on the more extreme side. Still, she thanks me for mostly not setting her up for failure. I say mostly because I *STILL* make the mistake of treating her normally, as if she had a normal infancy with no abuse, a healthy attachment, and just plain stimulus and nurishment as a baby. Just last week we had a full day AT HOME and only with OUR IMMEDIATE FAMILY and she didn't have her regular "cocoon" time to decompress. I thought because it was "only us" and we were at home all day........ And when she failed, acted out in strange and horrific ways..... I should have known better. It has been eight LONG, LEARNING years and I *STILL* failed her.... Because I thought all would be ok.

 

I learned YEARS ago to block outsiders opinions. I learned in the past year or so who to block out here. I need to remain strong for my RAD. I fight the fight. Sometimes I fail. When I do, and I will again, I just determine to try harder next time as I learn from my mistakes.

 

I will tell you that eight, six, even four years ago, never in my wildest dreams would I have thought living how I do now would I be ok. But we all are happy, mostly, and keep on finding our way, and better ways. Do I still have my days when I am so overwhelmed that I can't go on any,ore? Yes, but I always find the strength to keep on keepin on.

 

On the outside looking in, I have two dd's who used to be in the homeschool group. Now I have one. dd12 is an extremely easy kid, sociable, loving, trustworthy, lovesactivity, loves people. Dd9 has RAD, looks like the perfect angel at homeschool group, soaks up all the compliments which made her sicker, failed with all the over stimlation, etc. You know how it goes. So I pull dd9 out of group. She thrives. Outsiders, who obviously know the whole story and know better than mom, shaft me for treating adopted dd differently, YET ADOPTED DD NOT ONLY THRIVES, ADMITS HOMESCHOOL GROUP WAS TOO MUCH FOR HER and THANKS me for no longer bringing her. Yet I get chastised and talked about by ignorant gossipers who think they know better. I look at them and wish they DID.;)

 

You simply can't allow stress cracks from outsiders. The stress cracks in the home are overwhelmong enough.:grouphug:

 

My RAD is observing this all. She can spot parents who don't address misbehavior, she can spot mean moms, she can call me on my own mistakes, and she can thank me for fighting a GOOD fight for her. My RAD knows what I have done for her and she can thank me for it. While she is ony one in the home with severe issues, she has been with me for eight years. THIS is what I want you to reflect on. I have had her for EIGHT years. We have come soooooooooooo far in that time. *I* have come so far in that time! I have my overwhelming moments, but I have MOSTLY learned not to let her extreme behaviors affect me, which makes her trust me more as I show strength, and has her act out less.

 

You have a long, difficult road ahead of you. i did not know that I also did years ago. Be strong, though, and know your kids are watching you, testing you, and YOU are THEIR barometer!!! You will fail, but you will learn a better way from your failings. Stay strong and remember that unless someone who has walked a mile in YOUR shoes, they are as clueless as a gnat. IGNORE them completely. It will make you stronger!

 

I do have times when I completely lose it at RAD's extreme behaviors, but I "LOSE IT" outside of my RAD's eyesight and ear shot. i have even done this with board members as I sat outside during a snow storm in my PJ's!!! But in my RAD's presence I was her ROCK. It is so important to remember this! My ONE RAD has been overwhelming to deal with. You have THREE special needs littles.

 

Your kids are going to benefit from your strength and love. Mine has. TREMENDOUSLY.

:grouphug:

 

 

I am wondering....... Was this a rant?;). Sorry... But I have had a flood of thoughts going through me today and your post struck a cord in me. Aren't you the lucky one.:D

[Denisemomof4]

But if someone actually fully read the article, they could easily see that the sheriff's office and CPS didn't jump to conclusions. We had certain posters talking about relying on tips/lack of investigation when in reality that wasn't the case here.

I don't get the point of jumping and yelling RAD without a reason to do so.

 

The first article didn't have as much information as the later ones did.

 

You did some jumping and assuming yourself. You offended more than one person.

[Soror]

Well, this is far from the first older adopted kid to be abused in such a horrific manner. It seems I've heard of at least 2 in the past few months which were very similar- big Christian families and the adopted child/children treated like dogs. It is actually fairly common in abusive households for the abuse to be focused on one child(from my reading anyway). I just read a story this week about a girl who had been locked in the closet and hardly weighed anything, while her 2 sisters were well cared for, neighbors didn't even know she was there as she was never seen.