Crazy idea (?) to motivate an unmotivated student??

[bkpan]

DS (15yo) is wonderful in many ways and intelligent enough to do really well in his studies, BUT :banghead::banghead: the kid is so lazy and unmotivated it drives us crazy. I really believe that it drives him crazy too! We have talked and talked about this, and he really believes that he has no self-discipline and that he never will... like he just does not believe that he can change!

 

Believe me, we have tried lots of tough love type consequences and he has little to no social life, so natural type consequences have not made a dent.

 

SO, my mom, his nana, says the other day that she was reading about some kid who totally got turned around in direction by being offered $$ for As. Normally, I would think really bad idea, but desperate times certainly cause you to think outside of your box, so to speak, ya know?

 

So nana is willing to offer ds $50 for every A he makes in his tutorial and at home this year if we will let her.

 

What says the hive? Horrible idea or would you be willing to let her do it to see if it might make the difference in him believing that he CAN change and be a more diligent student if he decides to.

 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and advice, ladies.

 

Kim

Edited July 13, 2012 by bkpan
silly typo

[PeterPan]

Well my dh would have an issue with the $$ for grades thing; I do not. However before I did that I would do some checking into whether there's a REASON for his demotivation. Sometimes what you're seeing is undiagnosed ADHD. People think of ADHD too narrowly and expect the kid to be hyper and fidgety. There are subtypes (inattentive, hyperactive, etc.), but there's also an aspect called Executive Function. It's sort of the secretary part of the brain. It controls their ability to organize, initiate activities, pursue a course of action efficiently, etc. etc. Kind of sounds like a demotivated kid when it's not working right, eh?

 

There are good books on executive function (No Mind Left Behind, etc.), and it's a topic we've discussed on the boards here before.

 

So whatever, just something to pursue.

[Greta Lea]

He would like to be different, but feels out of control with it? Yep. That's not just choosing to be "lazy".

 

I've got 2 boys like this. Different issues causing this, but it's helpful to the person to know what causes them to feel this way *and* helps them learn how to deal with it. If that makes sense.

[regentrude]

So nana is willing to offer ds $50 for every A he makes in his tutorial and at home this year if we will let her.

 

What says the hive? Horrible idea or would you be willing to let her do it to see if it might make the difference in him believing that he CAN change and be a more diligent student if he decides to.

 

You will get different opinions; I personally find it a bad idea.

I teach at a university, and one big problem is that students want to be rewarded for everything they do: they read the assigned reading only if there are points for reading quizzes, and they do the homework only if they know it will be collected and graded. A large fraction is completely externally motivated and we have to jump through hoops to give them rewards for doing what they should be doing because they want to learn.

 

I see this as a continuation of a trend that starts in kindergarten with stickers and gold stars and continues throughout high school. I am very against this and do not think a student who is paid for grades will ever learn to work well out of intrinsic motivation, for the pleasure of doing a good job.

[PeterPan]

Ok, here's the real deal with rewards. IF there's something actually wrong (undiagnosed problems) he may or may not be able to pull it together and achieve the target. Your relative is totally assuming he CAN achieve the target. Has it occurred to you how negative a process this is going to be if he CAN'T??? Rewards are GOOD. But rewards are given for achievable goals. They aren't given for some pie in the sky thing. IF he stretches one time and makes some extraordinary effort, that doesn't mean he has the foundation of skills to achieve it consistently, in a balanced way. And if it's a small, do-able next step for him developmentally, he wouldn't NEED such an exhorbitant reward.

 

My dd had extreme challenges with typing due to some fine motor issues. Once I finally found a method that would work for her and knew it was in reach with just a little bit of diligence, I offered her a very nice reward ($1 per wpm for any month where she had an increase of 5+ wpm). Rewards are good! But that was a small step that I knew she could make because I had set a foundation. No foundation, no acknowledgment of the problems, you're just setting everybody up for failure. And failure sounds like what he's already had a chunk of.

 

BTW, after she made her progress, dd never bugged me for the reward, believe it or not. The success was it's own reward. I still owe her $150, lol, but the point is her success was its own reward. You're looking at too big a step. You take small steps and STRUCTURE HIM FOR SUCCESS. And when it's not working, you get outside help.

[marbel]

He would like to be different, but feels out of control with it? Yep. That's not just choosing to be "lazy".

 

I've got 2 boys like this. Different issues causing this, but it's helpful to the person to know what causes them to feel this way *and* helps them learn how to deal with it. If that makes sense.

 

Yes. My son was dx'd with AD/HD inattentive type, slow processing speed, and deficient working memory a few years ago. We are still working with him.

 

He is also a bright enough, and very curious boy who loves to learn new things. But getting him to "work" is very hard. He won't even think to work on Boy Scout stuff, which he loves. I have to be on him constantly. And when asked why, he can only say "I don't know." Sometimes tearfully. He doesn't want to be like that.

 

I don't know about the money thing. I was rewarded with money for As but I don't know if it motivated me or not. I think I used to have strong feelings against it, feeling that people should do something because it's the right thing to do, and for no other reward. As the reality of life has set in, I think I have softened my view on that somewhat. I agree with Regentrude about the problem in general, but think there might be specific instances where it would get a kid over a hump.

 

ETA: LOVE what Oh Elizabeth said above, posted while I was typing.

[bkpan]

Ok, here's the real deal with rewards. IF there's something actually wrong (undiagnosed problems) he may or may not be able to pull it together and achieve the target. Your relative is totally assuming he CAN achieve the target. Has it occurred to you how negative a process this is going to be if he CAN'T??? Rewards are GOOD. But rewards are given for achievable goals. They aren't given for some pie in the sky thing. IF he stretches one time and makes some extraordinary effort, that doesn't mean he has the foundation of skills to achieve it consistently, in a balanced way. And if it's a small, do-able next step for him developmentally, he wouldn't NEED such an exhorbitant reward.

 

My dd had extreme challenges with typing due to some fine motor issues. Once I finally found a method that would work for her and knew it was in reach with just a little bit of diligence, I offered her a very nice reward ($1 per wpm for any month where she had an increase of 5+ wpm). Rewards are good! But that was a small step that I knew she could make because I had set a foundation. No foundation, no acknowledgment of the problems, you're just setting everybody up for failure. And failure sounds like what he's already had a chunk of.

 

BTW, after she made her progress, dd never bugged me for the reward, believe it or not. The success was it's own reward. I still owe her $150, lol, but the point is her success was its own reward. You're looking at too big a step. You take small steps and STRUCTURE HIM FOR SUCCESS. And when it's not working, you get outside help.

 

You know, that did cross my mind, but now I am really rethinking this. He has a younger brother that is dx with ADHD, inattentive type, and another brother which is undx, but I am SURE struggles with this. I just had not imagined this ds with that issue. But, it really might fit him.

 

He is very insightful and I am wondering if, at 15yo, he would benefit by reading one of the ADD books written for adults, like You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy? to see if he thinks it fits him?

 

I do think it might be a real negative if he is offered this incentive and he still can't keep up the motivation to see him through the year.

 

Are there maybe any other threads that address how to help these kinds of kids? Thank you!!

[bkpan]

Yes. My son was dx'd with AD/HD inattentive type, slow processing speed, and deficient working memory a few years ago. We are still working with him.

 

He is also a bright enough, and very curious boy who loves to learn new things. But getting him to "work" is very hard. He won't even think to work on Boy Scout stuff, which he loves. I have to be on him constantly. And when asked why, he can only say "I don't know." Sometimes tearfully. He doesn't want to be like that.

 

I don't know about the money thing. I was rewarded with money for As but I don't know if it motivated me or not. I think I used to have strong feelings against it, feeling that people should do something because it's the right thing to do, and for no other reward. As the reality of life has set in, I think I have softened my view on that somewhat. I agree with Regentrude about the problem in general, but think there might be specific instances where it would get a kid over a hump.

 

ETA: LOVE what Oh Elizabeth said above, posted while I was typing.

 

Your ds does sound very much like my ds. What kinds of things are you doing to "work with him"? Thank you!

[rlugbill]

Admittedly, I have not been above occasionally offering bribes for what I want from my child.

 

However, I don't know you or your child, but many 5 year old boys are just not ready for much in terms of academics. Read "Better Late than Early" by Ray Moore, an early (ironically) homeschool pioneer.

 

One thing I did learn by homeschooling was that children are not naturally lazy and don't want to sit around doing nothing. School assumes that kids are lazy and won't do anything without the proper incentives. I have found that not to be the case. Children can and do learn without grades, stars for good behavior, punishment for bad behavior, etc.

 

I suspect he is not lazy, but he is just not ready for academics right now. He might be more interesting in doing things than in sitting still. I would go with that- do things with him. Build things, teach him to ride a bike, to play ball, to play a musical instrument, etc.

 

At the same time, try to read to him, even if he has to move around some when you are reading. He will eventually learn to like books and reading if you make it an enjoyable experience.

 

IMHO, it isn't so much that the means is wrong (paying him to get grades), as the goal and the whole approach are not a fit for this child at this particular time. When he is older, he will probably happily learn what he needs to learn. But at this point, it will be difficult for him to learn in a way that he is not suited to right now. So, I recommend parental patience rather than child bribery.

 

I know this is hard for you. I hope things go well for you and your son.

[PeterPan]

Well number one, I'd get him a full, proper neuropsych eval and make sure you actually know what he's dealing with. You'd hate to have him reading and thinking the wrong label. With the scores in-hand and the information from that eval, you'll know what accommodations to make and how to proceed. Private evals tend to be more helpful than ps evals, and it really varies with the psych as to how much time they spend, how much feedback they give. Some give you papers and leave you no clue what to do with the numbers. Some spend a lot of time. Ours went through every single subject and answered literally 5 pages of questions I had on everything from living (chores and the like) to academics to future life. So no, I wouldn't just hand him a book and see if it fits. Get him evals.

 

I also encourage checking vision, just as a matter of course. If you do it through a developmental optometrist, they screen for some extra things.

 

Then head over to the SN board. There's a LOT you can do beyond getting a label. There are some terrific EF workbooks from Linguisystems that might make a radical difference for him. There's OT for sensory (yes, even at his age) if that's an issue. He may be low stim and rising slowly. It's sort of weird to think of an adhd kid who's the inverse of hyper, but there you go. There are things you can do to work on processing speed and working memory. There's technology you can use to improve his ability to self-structure (ipad, ipod is AWESOME for this). There's IM (interactive metronome) to try to work the EF part of the brain. Any time you do games, IM, VT (vision therapy), those Linguisystems workbooks, etc. etc. you can work that EF portion of the brain therapeutically and nudge it.

 

So it's not like he just is what he is and unchangeable, but it's not like some great act of willpower on his part makes it happen either. YOU have to structure his environment for success, then you start doing therapeutically chosen activities to get that portion of the brain to develop. You'll actually see the progress and the improvement in his abilities as you work on it. So definitely check into what you can do to help him. Also remember he's possibly headed for college, where that psych eval letter will open doors to accommodations. They're not an ugly word, accommodations. My dd just took advantage of them and got appropriate accommodations for a lit class she did this summer online. I NEVER would have expected her to do so well in a live, online class like that, given her processing speed issues, etc. The accommodations made a radical difference. It's the difference between a gets left behind every week, feeling like it was a blur and too hard and a kid who enjoys it and wants to take more.

 

BTW, you said he has no friends. Sorry to be utterly literal, but that could mean you're just in a small youth group and he hasn't connected with anyone, meaning I'd branch out and find more pools of youth to try. Or it could mean the ADHD label isn't all there is or that he has some social skills issues. Just saying. So it's why you really want to get the full eval. I put my money where my mouth is. I paid the full amount for our private eval. There are lots of ways to get it done (private, ps, through insurance, blah blah). I just highly recommend it, especially if you can find someone who gives you useful feedback. Ours spent a lot of time with us and went through a lot of issues. It can be game-changing with the right psych.

 

Hope to see you on the SN board. :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, better late than early. Read that when I was first getting started and have a number of books by the Moore's. Problem with that logic and trying to apply it to this situation is he's ALWAYS going to be BEHIND. An ADHD dc is, by definition, typically 30% behind in EF development. So that means when he's 15 he might have the EF equivalent of a 10-12 yo. Yeah, you wait and he's going to develop, but he's still always BEHIND. You want to get in the middle of that process and interject yourself therapeutically with some things to get him more functional. You work the EF portion of the brain and it responds to the work. You give him proper support appropriate to his disability, and he CAN do all those things and will feel SUCCESSFUL and ENJOY it. There's nothing more depressing than not being able to do the things you want to do. It would be one thing if the dc were happily behind, but he's not.

 

Whatever, I'm on a tangent.

[regentrude]

However, I don't know you or your child, but many 5 year old boys are just not ready for much in terms of academics. Read "Better Late than Early" by Ray Moore, an early (ironically) homeschool pioneer.

 

...

I suspect he is not lazy, but he is just not ready for academics right now. He might be more interesting in doing things than in sitting still. I would go with that- do things with him. Build things, teach him to ride a bike, to play ball, to play a musical instrument, etc.

 

This is the high school board and the OP's son is not 5, but 15 y/o.

[rlugbill]

Sorry, the OP wrote, " (i5yo)". I misread it as a 5 year old, not a 15 year old. Sorry- "Better Late than Early" does not apply.

[PeterPan]

Sorry, the OP wrote, " (i5yo)". I misread it as a 5 year old, not a 15 year old. Sorry- "Better Late than Early" does not apply.

 

No biggee, I read it that way at first too! :D

[marbel]

Well number one, I'd get him a full, proper neuropsych eval and make sure you actually know what he's dealing with.

 

Agree with this and every word of the rest of the post.

 

We found a neuropsych and had private testing, after advice from several people who'd gone through the school system with poor outcomes. (Does not mean your school system will give you a poor outcome.)

 

We received a detailed report of the issues, along with recommendations for therapies. Our son had tests for visual processing and auditory processing. He had physical and occupational therapy. He had many neurofeedback sessions to help him with his attention. He still sees the psychologist who did the neurofeedback to help him with anxiety.

 

The day we got that report was one of the happiest days of my life, in a way. For so long we knew our son had problems but we couldn't figure them out. We read book after book and everything sounded like him. In some ways he seemed so bright and then other times we'd think, oh, wow, he's just not very smart. It was so confusing.

 

Once we sat down with the neuropsych and he explained the test results, everything fell into place for us. I don't mean as far as what to do - it just explained so many things we'd been wondering about.

 

So, I would never just hand off a book. It could just confuse him and hold him back more.

 

Get the evaluation. For a long time I listened to people who told me not to test my kid, not to risk him being labeled, just accept him as he was. That was terrible advice and I'm sorry we listened to it for 2 years.

 

Feel free to pm me if you want to talk about it more.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I paid my son when he was in grade 4. Something liek 5cents for every 5 words he would have in his composition. His motivation skyrocketed. I stopped once I owed him 5$ for a single composition.

 

Now I pay my kids 20$ if they get a 20/20 on a quiz. It motivates them to go from good to excellent. Otherwise, they're just happy with 'good enough'.

After all, if we're paid to do a job, they can too.

[Dicentra]

You will get different opinions; I personally find it a bad idea.

I teach at a university, and one big problem is that students want to be rewarded for everything they do: they read the assigned reading only if there are points for reading quizzes, and they do the homework only if they know it will be collected and graded. A large fraction is completely externally motivated and we have to jump through hoops to give them rewards for doing what they should be doing because they want to learn.

 

I see this as a continuation of a trend that starts in kindergarten with stickers and gold stars and continues throughout high school. I am very against this and do not think a student who is paid for grades will ever learn to work well out of intrinsic motivation, for the pleasure of doing a good job.

 

Ok, here's the real deal with rewards. IF there's something actually wrong (undiagnosed problems) he may or may not be able to pull it together and achieve the target. Your relative is totally assuming he CAN achieve the target. Has it occurred to you how negative a process this is going to be if he CAN'T??? Rewards are GOOD. But rewards are given for achievable goals. They aren't given for some pie in the sky thing. IF he stretches one time and makes some extraordinary effort, that doesn't mean he has the foundation of skills to achieve it consistently, in a balanced way. And if it's a small, do-able next step for him developmentally, he wouldn't NEED such an exhorbitant reward.

 

My dd had extreme challenges with typing due to some fine motor issues. Once I finally found a method that would work for her and knew it was in reach with just a little bit of diligence, I offered her a very nice reward ($1 per wpm for any month where she had an increase of 5+ wpm). Rewards are good! But that was a small step that I knew she could make because I had set a foundation. No foundation, no acknowledgment of the problems, you're just setting everybody up for failure. And failure sounds like what he's already had a chunk of.

 

BTW, after she made her progress, dd never bugged me for the reward, believe it or not. The success was it's own reward. I still owe her $150, lol, but the point is her success was its own reward. You're looking at too big a step. You take small steps and STRUCTURE HIM FOR SUCCESS. And when it's not working, you get outside help.

:iagree:

I think regentrude and OhElizabeth are both saying the same thing. Even though OhElizabeth started out with offering an external reward system, what she was really doing was teaching her dd how to work for internal rewards - sense of accomplishment, pride, and satisfaction in a skill learned or a job well done.

[Dmmetler]

My DD isn't anywhere near 15 yet, but will shut down if she fears making a mistake. I've found really, really small incentives (I mean like her putting a sticker on a chart as she completes each math problem and the filled chart is worth a dollar, which means a sticker is worth .04-but again, she's 7, so $1.00 is still big money for her :)) for EACH step is more helpful at that point that a big incentive at the end-because if she's not confident enough to do the assignment without freaking out in the start, an incentive at the end is just more pressure.

 

What I've also found with this is that she fades it out on her own as she gets confident, so it's not a case where it stays around forever.

 

I suspect that a $50 per A incentive could lead to the same effect-that if he gets one poor grade early on, he could see that as a reason to just not try after that point, because he'd already blown the incentive, while maybe a shorter duration award ($5/week for a 10 week class instead of $50 at the end or something) might be more motivating.

[Tammyla]

A 5 y/old is still a baby...

 

DS (i5yo) is wonderful in many ways and intelligent enough to do really well in his studies, BUT :banghead::banghead: the kid is so lazy and unmotivated it drives us crazy. I really believe that it drives him crazy too! We have talked and talked about this, and he really believes that he has no self-discipline and that he never will... like he just does not believe that he can change!

 

Believe me, we have tried lots of tough love type consequences and he has little to no social life, so natural type consequences have not made a dent.

 

SO, my mom, his nana, says the other day that she was reading about some kid who totally got turned around in direction by being offered $$ for As. Normally, I would think really bad idea, but desperate times certainly cause you to think outside of your box, so to speak, ya know?

 

So nana is willing to offer ds $50 for every A he makes in his tutorial and at home this year if we will let her.

 

What says the hive? Horrible idea or would you be willing to let her do it to see if it might make the difference in him believing that he CAN change and be a more diligent student if he decides to.

 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and advice, ladies.

 

Kim

[regentrude]

A 5 y/old is still a baby...

 

The boy is 15, not 5.

[Mona100]

I paid my son when he was in grade 4. Something liek 5cents for every 5 words he would have in his composition. His motivation skyrocketed. I stopped once I owed him 5$ for a single composition.

 

Now I pay my kids 20$ if they get a 20/20 on a quiz. It motivates them to go from good to excellent. Otherwise, they're just happy with 'good enough'.

After all, if we're paid to do a job, they can too.

 

My daughter believes this too. She looks at school like it is a job.

[bobbeym]

Originally Posted by bkpan

DS (i5yo) is wonderful in many ways and intelligent enough to do really well in his studies, BUT :banghead::banghead: the kid is so lazy and unmotivated it drives us crazy. I really believe that it drives him crazy too! We have talked and talked about this, and he really believes that he has no self-discipline and that he never will... like he just does not believe that he can change!

 

Believe me, we have tried lots of tough love type consequences and he has little to no social life, so natural type consequences have not made a dent.

 

My DS is 14yo and sounds very much like yours. He's a non-medicated ADD-inattentative type with a few hyperactive traits. We chose to hs him after a long history of problems in ps led to a bad choice with severe school and legal consequences. However, most of the time I want to pull my hair out and scream in frustration when dealing with him.

 

His reason for every bad decision is "I don't know". There is so little self motivation for even the things that he excels at that I honestly don't see him going to college, despite what he says his plans are. :confused:

 

We've tried positive reinforcements but they don't seem to work more than once or twice, although from what some others have said, it might be that we're looking too far out and need something smaller and more instantaneous. I think for mine, I'm going to consider offering $1 for each day he completes all of his assignments, to be given out nightly. That'll be just enough for him to get a coffee or snack after youth group on Friday nights. :D

 

I know that I probably didn't really help answer your question or your concerns, but I wanted you to know that you're not alone! :grouphug:

[readinmom]

I have struggled with this issue for many, many years. Oldest ds was brilliant from ages 2-11. He then contracted slacker's disease (no known cure). We asked what would motivate him for better grades and he wanted a small television to watch his movies on. He recieved straight A's for the entire year. Once he got the tv, it was over. Method never worked again.

 

Sit down with your ds and watch the episode from Freakonomics about 9th graders being paid for grades. We watched it as a family and had some good discussions from it.

 

I think that some kids need to mature out of this on their own, but as parents we should still set the parameters of expectations. You can't motivate the unmotivated; but if you discover something that works, you could become a billionaire. :D

 

It's hard, even now, to think about all the great things ds could have done, rather than settle for what he has now. But in the end, it's not my life or my choice. Doesn't stop me from feeling like the world's crappiest parent sometimes!

[Katy]

I agree with getting an evaluation first.

 

Assuming everything is normal and he's just a naturally demotivated kid, I would pick some goals with him and have him work through them step by step. If that didn't work, we might scrape together some money for some sort of out of the family tough experience. Something like NOLS or Outward Bound in Colorado, or some other really challenging thing for adolescents.