Politeness Poll & Query

[HollyinNNV]

I have been thinking a lot about how to post messages in such a way so as not to offend folks. I noticed that, in writing and speaking, I often "dis" myself before offering up suggestions or advice. KWIM? I might say, "well I don't have a literature degree, but my experience with the Aeneid..........blah, blah, blah." In writing I do the same thing, "I haven't had great success sticking to one math curriculum, but currently......blah, blah blah."

 

When my dh has professional letters to write, I often advise that he add some note of humility or note of praise to the addressee. I don't advise that he go as far as the examples above, but he hates it when I advise him this way. (He usually goes along with it. But, I don't think he likes it!)

 

Anyways, I was reading Aeneid today and the main character basically does the exact same thing (a humbling comment before a request) and I thought, wow there is a good precedent for this. But then I thought, isn't it just patronizing? Wouldn't the listener think, yeah right, what do you really want.

 

Then I was wondering about some of the more famous fiery posters in our group. (or they produce fiery reactions :D) Sometimes I'll read a post that produces a strong response that I didn't feel so strongly about and I'll wonder if they just prefaced it by saying..........Just my opinion and you might disagree........or My dh never agrees with this but.........

 

But, then that type of tone might be considered condescending and patronizing???????

 

So, I'd love to hear you diverse and wonderful thoughts about this (no-I mean it, really). Because I would love to understand myself and my different-thinking dh better.:D

[LisaNY]

Interesting questions. I could not answer the poll, because I can't "peg" myself within those options.

 

It is always good to be humble, IMO. Being humble doesn't have to mean you need to be self-effacing every time you respond to someone or share your thoughts & opinions. A person can speak with authority on a subject and yet do it in such a way that is not arrogant or condescending. Unless of course you are arrogant to begin with, and in that case, there's not much that can be done. ;)

 

My conversations differ, depending upon my knowlege and experience.

 

If I am confident that I know something about a subject, I don't feel that I always have to preface my statements with, "I don't have a ________degree, but I've done this, or experienced this..." for fear of being construed as arrogant. I just share what I know, in the hopes that it will be helpful to others.

 

If I don't feel that I know all that much about a subject, or if I am only going on my own limited experience with something, I say so - especially with fellow homeschoolers. I don't want to sway someone with an opinion that is only based on my personal experience.

 

I would never want to come off as a know-it-all on a subject, even if I *do* know a lot about a subject. Speaking with confidence on something is different than speaking as a know-it-all. I know many dear people on this board whom I respect greatly both for their knowledge AND their ability to share it in such a way that is always kind and considerate. :001_smile: (I would hope that my posts reflect the same kindness. If they don't - Everyone! Here's your chance to let me know! :smash:)

 

About your take on your dh's letter-writing. Personally, I don't think your dh needs to preface his letters with genuflections - especially in a professional letter. It should be polite, but straightforward, IMO.

[GraceinMD]

"...a soft answer turns away wrath...."

 

I don't think of myself as humble, but I think it's possible to soften advice/comments so that it's more accessible to the listener (whether verbal or in writing).

 

Women tend much more to say, "I think..." or "I feel...." and I find myself often taking out those qualifiers when I'm posting - because I actually type them in many sentences! [i think that] Too much of that can come across as weak, though. I would also view it as somewhat weaker in a man, probably (although it's hard to say without a specific example).

 

Finally, I'm going to post back later a letter of recommendation that was written about an ancestor of mine - it is one of the most self-deprecating letters you'd want to read - but I think (ack!) it reflected a sense of humility that may be lacking today. (Sort of the "everyone thinks they're a filmmaker because they can post on YouTube!")

 

...and a funny: we were talking at dinner last night about how you might be different if you didn't believe in Christ, and ds 11 said, "Well, I might be less humble." Two beats later, he got it. :)

[elegantlion]

I do try to preface my online comments and I guess I do that in real life. I am a fairly blunt thinker and honest (or maybe opinionated) about things. It has come across harsh with people that don't know me well. Plus y'all can't see the sarcastic look on my face. I have found in the past, that anytime I don't add a drop of humilty I usually end up eating crow, or somthing nasty like that.

 

I'll be reading Aenid later this year, I'll keep at eye out for that. You have just enhanced my literature studies!

 

Just my .02 :tongue_smilie:

[shalom22]

I try to humble myself anytime I am conveying something in writing or in speech. But I think when a comment or suggestion is submitted in the written form that it is important to be very aware of the words used. I usually take time and reflect what I am wanting to convey and find myself rewriting my comments many times. Even when it involves a business letter. I don't think that I need to make humbling statements in the letter, but my words are chosen carefully. Using the written word is difficult to convey strong beliefs or knowledge, since you don't have inflection of voice or facial expressions to go along with it.

 

But that doesn't mean that I always succeed in coming across humble though...;)

[WTMindy]

I think it is only patronizing when you are not being genuine. To make a humble comment really only works when it is authentic and not just a rhetorical tool to make your point. But, there are very few things that attract me more to a person than genuine humility in their advice.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I try to come across as helpful and I try not to patronize the person I'm writing to by watching the words I choose to use. If I have something to say to someone IRL that is difficult, I do it face to face. It's too hard to read the "tone" of a letter.

[HollyinNNV]

I

It is always good to be humble, IMO. Being humble doesn't have to mean you need to be self-effacing every time you respond to someone or share your thoughts & opinions. A person can speak with authority on a subject and yet do it in such a way that is not arrogant or condescending.

The difficulty for me is writing in a tone that does not sound arrogant.

 

 

I would never want to come off as a know-it-all on a subject, even if I *do* know a lot about a subject. Speaking with confidence on something is different than speaking as a know-it-all. I know many dear people on this board whom I respect greatly both for their knowledge AND their ability to share it in such a way that is always kind and considerate. :001_smile:

I respect it, too!

 

About your take on your dh's letter-writing. Personally, I don't think your dh needs to preface his letters with genuflections - especially in a professional letter. It should be polite, but straightforward, IMO.

 

Yes, polite, but straightforward! I agree. I don't suggest he use genuflections. But, sometimes straightforward can look less than kind in print. Too bad that smiley faces aren't professional-looking!

 

Thanks so much for your response!

Holly

[Jenny in Atl]

I think it is only patronizing when you are not being genuine. To make a humble comment really only works when it is authentic and not just a rhetorical tool to make your point. But, there are very few things that attract me more to a person than genuine humility in their advice.

 

Nicely said!

[Myrtle]

 

But, then that type of tone might be considered condescending and patronizing???????

 

So, I'd love to hear you diverse and wonderful thoughts about this (no-I mean it, really). Because I would love to understand myself and my different-thinking dh better.:D

 

 

In fact there are few things some people love more than being offended.

 

And some people do not get offended by statements directed at them personally. In fact, they don’t even have a problem making offensive statements about other groups and people not even on this board. As a rule, some posters strongly prefer to get offended on behalf of other people.

 

On some internet forums (surely not this one!) to accuse someone of being offensive usually has the effect of silencing the person, of getting him or her to quit. This usually works because the "offensive" statement is usually a minority opinion.

 

John Stuart Mill says that it is often those whose opinions are part of the majority ones that rely on invective to silence their interlocutors.

 

So what offends me? Someone who responds with the "how dare you/shut up" card played by being offended rather than examining and challenging the assertion with "how so?" or "what do you mean by that?".

 

Furthermore, censoring ourselves lest we be accused of offending someone, has the negative side effect of ruining otherwise interesting conversations. In the words of one blogger:

 

I have an idea; how about we drop all this politically correct bull****? How about we all talk to each other openly and honestly without making certain words off limits and without deeming certain subject taboo? How about we eliminate the fear of offending our fellow man and replace it with an honest attempt at understanding our fellow man? Go ahead, ask me anything. I won’t cry and I won’t tell you what a bad person you are. In return, however, I might want to ask you a couple of questions. Please don’t pistol whip me because you didn’t like my phrasing. Real tolerance comes from education, so let’s all quit being afraid to raise our hands in class.

 

We might just end up loving each other after all. Or we might end up hating each other’s guts. But, either way, we’ll be loving and hating for all the right reasons.

[HollyinNNV]

I do try to preface my online comments and I guess I do that in real life. I am a fairly blunt thinker and honest (or maybe opinionated) about things. It has come across harsh with people that don't know me well. Plus y'all can't see the sarcastic look on my face. I have found in the past, that anytime I don't add a drop of humilty I usually end up eating crow, or somthing nasty like that.

 

I'll be reading Aenid later this year, I'll keep at eye out for that. You have just enhanced my literature studies!

 

Just my .02 :tongue_smilie:

 

Paula,

Around line 700, Aeneas suddenly appears before Queen Dido. Here's some of what he says (to her)

 

"Here I am before you, the man you are looking for. Aeneas the Trojan, plucked from Libya's heavy seas. You alone have pitied the long ordeals of Troy-unspeakable-and here you would share your city and your home with us, this remnant left by the Greeks.............

 

around line 724:

 

"What age has been so blest to give you birth? What noble parents produced so fine a daughter? So long as rivers run to the sea, so long as shadows travel the mountain slopes and the stars range the skies, your honor, your name, your praise will live forever, whatever lands may call me to their shores."

 

Holly

[Plaid Dad]

I couldn't answer the poll because my style of communication depends on context.

 

If I am being asked my opinion as an expert on a particular topic, I give it without apology, but I am careful to make clear where my expertise ends. I give that qualification to allow the listener to make a reasoned evaluation of the information they're getting from me.

 

If I am offering unsolicited advice or my opinion in an area where I am not as sure of myself, I tend to qualify my statement - again, not to make the person more open to what I have to say, but in the spirit of full disclosure.

 

I do think that in some business situations, some people will see that kind of qualification as weakness. I call it honesty. I do not trust people who make big promises without acknowledging risk or possible negative factors. Hard sells and bravado of any sort turn me off. I would much rather do business with someone who is open about both the risks and the benefits of what they're offering and who is also honest about their competitors' strengths. That's probably why I'm not in sales...or politics! ;)

[LisaNY]

In fact there are few things some people love more than being offended.

 

 

 

Oh, gosh! Ain't it the truth? :rolleyes:

[Jill- OK]

Furthermore, censoring ourselves lest we be accused of offending someone, has the negative side effect of ruining otherwise interesting conversations.

 

Sure, you can get paralyzed by worry over whether or not you're going to offend someone, and stifle the good interchange that might have happened...but I seriously doubt that the majority of folks fall in that category. :)

 

My personal opinion is that in this day and age, what used to be common courtesy or civility has fallen out of vogue, and/or takes too much time for many folks. It's also generally difficult to be verbally concise and tackle a difficult subject tactfully, and easy to be blunt and coarse. (And a "microwave society" tends toward 'easy', usually).

 

I voted that I usually listen closer if a poster is humble, simply because I trust their thinking more. Not that I won't consider advice from non-humble sources, I just tend to associate thoughtfulness with being well-balanced, and a sharp/global thinker--for the reasons listed above; if you can give well-reasoned advice, and do it tactfully, then you're really on the ball. If you have a reasonable view of yourself, in the great scheme of things...then I believe you have a good overall grasp of the big picture. I value the input of folks who fit this description. (Just being honest).

[Jill- OK]

I think you can over-do the humility thing in business, and look wishy-washy, but I don't think it ever hurts to leave open the possibility (in your mind and sometimes in writing) that you might be wrong.

 

The teaching of Jesus about sitting at the low end of the table and waiting to be called up (rather than assuming a high place and being embarassed when you're asked to shove over) comes to mind. I can think of one time when I carefully checked myself (and my phrasing/tone) before 'informing' a client of something, lol, and it turned out that she actually knew what she was doing, after all. I avoided looking like a know-it-all, and gave her room to say that this was the way she wanted to do it, and still not seem to be questioning her judgement.

 

All I'm saying is...I've never been bitten in the behind when I've decided to be humble. Can't say that for going the other direction. :001_smile:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I try to be honest in all I say - I will qualify this by saying that I'm not always successful in this!!! But generally in dealing with people I will try not to "think of myself more highly than you ought to think". So if I know about something I will say so. I don't put myself out as the world's premier authority on it, but I will tell you what I know. If I only know a little bit about something I will usually keep quiet unless the person is not getting any help from anyone else and then I will give my opinion while adding that this is only something I know a little bit about (but I don't put myself down either). If I am good at something I will say so (if asked - and I don't puff it up when I do - I simply say "yes, I'm good at that."). This disconcerts people at times. They try to test me to see if I really can do what I say I can do!

[genie]

So what offends me? Someone who responds with the "how dare you/shut up" card played by being offended rather than examining and challenging the assertion with "how so?" or "what do you mean by that?".

 

 

 

Loved this post, Myrtle! :thumbup:

[Miss Marple]

Completely agree!

[Miss Marple]

Boy, that's a tough one. So much depends on personality I think. For myself, I'm a "just the facts"/"cut to the chase" type of person. So I don't need someone to soft-pedal anything to me. However, I am realizing that I'm a bit in the minority among my IRL friends. And, as I watch how others relate, I can see the need for prefacing statements with positive, kind words. So I'm trying to learn from them in order to relate better with others.

[HollyinNNV]

I do think that in some business situations, some people will see that kind of qualification as weakness. I call it honesty. I do not trust people who make big promises without acknowledging risk or possible negative factors. Hard sells and bravado of any sort turn me off. I would much rather do business with someone who is open about both the risks and the benefits of what they're offering and who is also honest about their competitors' strengths. That's probably why I'm not in sales...or politics! ;)

 

Yes, in my dh's line of work, there are A LOT of type A personalities. Many of them just about drive me nuts at social functions. One of his colleagues basically told me all about how music works, all the while knowing my degree is in music. Ah well-I "needed" further education.

 

In his job, a majority of people look at honesty and any kind of humility as weakness. It is sad, but true. I try discern where there can be balance.

Holly

[HollyinNNV]

Sure, you can get paralyzed by worry over whether or not you're going to offend someone, and stifle the good interchange that might have happened...but I seriously doubt that the majority of folks fall in that category. :)

 

I do worry a lot. I've left lots of posts unfinished and given up on them. I've followed interesting threads and composed responses in my mind but never followed through with posting them. I've even PM'd people I agree with because I don't want to publicly agree. I've also PM'd people with advice because I don't want to publicly give advice. It is obviously my own personal problem, but I hate people getting angry with me and I doubly hate neg rep.

 

My personal opinion is that in this day and age, what used to be common courtesy or civility has fallen out of vogue, and/or takes too much time for many folks. It's also generally difficult to be verbally concise and tackle a difficult subject tactfully, and easy to be blunt and coarse. (And a "microwave society" tends toward 'easy', usually).

 

ITA! It takes much more time to be thoughtful, PC and civil to a really diverse world of personalities. Even when you think you have been completely civil, someone out there will disagree with your self-assessment.

 

I voted that I usually listen closer if a poster is humble, simply because I trust their thinking more. Not that I won't consider advice from non-humble sources, I just tend to associate thoughtfulness with being well-balanced, and a sharp/global thinker--for the reasons listed above; if you can give well-reasoned advice, and do it tactfully, then you're really on the ball. If you have a reasonable view of yourself, in the great scheme of things...then I believe you have a good overall grasp of the big picture. I value the input of folks who fit this description. (Just being honest).

I do and I don't. It probably depends upon mood. But, sometimes a person who is a little more forthright, like Phred, catches my opinion because he has something different to say.

 

 

Thanks for your very thoughtful response!

Holly