Degree of Doubt (article on college)

[Gwen in VA]

http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0617/Bachelor-s-degree-Has-it-lost-its-edge-and-its-value

 

This is one of the more interesting articles on college I have read. It mentions many things we have discussed on the Board -- too many degree-holders, not enough jobs, requirement inflation, cost, certificates, importance of work ethic, and general confusion about what makes a good worker and what good is a college education anyway.

[creekland]

So, someone got paid to take all of our discussions and compile them into one article? ;)

 

My guys are still headed for degrees. I saw absolutely nothing in the article to suggest they'd be better off doing otherwise (unless they wanted to be a chef or a welder - though I wonder whether the culinary school chap will have "success" for the value of his program) and many points showing how they need an education to be competitive. My two older guys are going with the flow and expecting to get more schooling than just a Bachelors.

 

But college isn't for everyone and never will be. Put folks into college classes who don't want to be there and you can end up with an empty classroom. ;) I suspect that's part of the reason so many places want a Bachlors as their basic requirement even if they don't need the material studied. It shows the degree holder was able to attend class and take tests successfully often enough to get the degree. Perhaps they'll show up to work and get projects done on time too.

[Candid]

I did find it amusing that their first counter example is someone training to be a chef like that's a sure thing to go into.

[creekland]

I did find it amusing that their first counter example is someone training to be a chef like that's a sure thing to go into.

 

And they are likely paying a ton for their education.

[Jane in NC]

I did find it amusing that their first counter example is someone training to be a chef like that's a sure thing to go into.

 

A community college near me offers an Associate's degree or a certificate in their culinary program. So while it is not a four year degree, we're still talking post-secondary education.

 

And that seems to be the heart of the matter. The article mentions that not all jobs require degrees. True. But employers may require them or use a degree as the tipping point between two otherwise equally qualified candidates. Further, if high schools in the US offered more technical training so that students could graduate with work ready or apprenticeship ready skills, then perhaps attending a post-secondary program may not be needed.

 

Factories of old needed line workers who did repetitive tasks. There was a story on NPR in previous months about workers who are essentially using computerized tools (things like CAD) on the fly to make decisions as they work. While a degree is not needed, not everyone has the old fashioned engineering mindset to handle this sort of job. Again, it seems that some sort of post-secondary training is needed--or a high school tech training program that may be geared to specific industries.

[Caroline]

It is interesting that you bring up the tech training in high school. "Career ready" is one of the buzz phrases in common core. I teach at a high school that really should have more tech training available. We send less than half our grads to college, mostly due to financial and immigration issues. These kids need to graduate with CAD, culinary, cosmetology, plumbing, HVAC, auto tech, etc training. They need these things more than precalc. Solid math skills, higher level reading skills, (the average HVAC manual is at a higher Lexile level than most college engineering textbooks,) basic science foundations, basic business foundations--that's what they need. In my school, we are working to implement those things with the Common Core, but there is very little funding available. I think these things are so important. However, current high school graduation requirements leave little room for these things.

 

 

A community college near me offers an Associate's degree or a certificate in their culinary program. So while it is not a four year degree, we're still talking post-secondary education.

 

And that seems to be the heart of the matter. The article mentions that not all jobs require degrees. True. But employers may require them or use a degree as the tipping point between two otherwise equally qualified candidates. Further, if high schools in the US offered more technical training so that students could graduate with work ready or apprenticeship ready skills, then perhaps attending a post-secondary program may not be needed.

 

Factories of old needed line workers who did repetitive tasks. There was a story on NPR in previous months about workers who are essentially using computerized tools (things like CAD) on the fly to make decisions as they work. While a degree is not needed, not everyone has the old fashioned engineering mindset to handle this sort of job. Again, it seems that some sort of post-secondary training is needed--or a high school tech training program that may be geared to specific industries.

[rockala]

I think one should explore an understanding of world economics to get the whole picture before they embark on college. College will never be a gurantee that you will have a job. There is much more that goes into building a solid employee than that. Some degrees are very job specific and others are more open-ended. Our dc may switch so it is hard to know at the start where they will end up.

 

For this reason, one book I am having my daughter read as part of a business type class is Midas Touch. I may not agree with it all, some parts are light and others heavier, but one part really put in writing how much the government has to do with making the world go round so to speak. A friend asked me to read it as she embarks on her own business and I was hesitant, but am glad I did.

 

I am slowly trying to build out additional books on business, so they can understand the greater importance of having the piece of paper. In my work, about the only thing it says to our hiring dept is if they have a degree they should be teachable. An interview will let them know if their personality makes them teachable or not.

 

These types of components in a person, if they are entreprenurial in spirit or teachable as an employee will help them flesh out how they want to live their life and that is important to their success and happiness. The college degree is not the be-all-end-all gurantee for success and happiness in life. With dd applying this year I have to remember that I also want to have a happy well-adjusted adult in the end. ;)

 

 

Kathy

[creekland]

It is interesting that you bring up the tech training in high school. "Career ready" is one of the buzz phrases in common core. I teach at a high school that really should have more tech training available. We send less than half our grads to college, mostly due to financial and immigration issues. These kids need to graduate with CAD, culinary, cosmetology, plumbing, HVAC, auto tech, etc training. They need these things more than precalc. Solid math skills, higher level reading skills, (the average HVAC manual is at a higher Lexile level than most college engineering textbooks,) basic science foundations, basic business foundations--that's what they need. In my school, we are working to implement those things with the Common Core, but there is very little funding available. I think these things are so important. However, current high school graduation requirements leave little room for these things.

 

We're there too... Where I went to school, eons ago, we had a tech track for kids who wanted it. They spent half their day in school taking just the academic courses they needed and spent the other half learning diesel mechanics, construction, hair dressing, etc, and graduated after having an internship at a shop somewhere. They were ready to work and many had jobs prior to graduation. They had to keep up their grades in their academic classes or they weren't allowed to continue in the tech classes, so there was incentive.

 

Then the gov't came around and broke what didn't need to be fixed. Now those kids have to take so much in academics NOT related to their jobs that fewer succeed and there's less time for it all. And where I teach we don't even HAVE the option other than a handful of shop classes (nowhere near the same). It's frustrating.

[Matryoshka]

I did find it amusing that their first counter example is someone training to be a chef like that's a sure thing to go into.

And they are likely paying a ton for their education.

 

Answers are in the related article linked at the bottom of the first one:

 

"When he completes the program, Jenkins will have paid $28,000 to lay the foundations for a career in fine cuisine, where average yearly earnings start at $33,000 and can grow to $85,000-plus. From being part of the 34 to 44 percent of students who drop out of college, Jenkins could become part of the 27 percent who, without any degree, earn more than the average bachelor's degree holder."

 

Sounds like a fairly reasonable return on investment, actually... and there's not a lot of sure things in any field these days.

[creekland]

 

"When he completes the program, Jenkins will have paid $28,000 to lay the foundations for a career in fine cuisine, where average yearly earnings start at $33,000 and can grow to $85,000-plus. From being part of the 34 to 44 percent of students who drop out of college, Jenkins could become part of the 27 percent who, without any degree, earn more than the average bachelor's degree holder."

 

 

 

I think the problem is in the bolded part. Where can one live comfortably on 33K per year and still pay off any debt (he may not have any, but if someone did...)? And if that's average, how many earn less? It'd be better to see a median range as well as the mean.

 

I'm sure this works out great for those who get up to 85K plus, but I suspect part of the reason for the high default with for profit places is due to the average grad.

 

That said, I've no problem with someone choosing to be a chef as a career. I, personally, detest cooking and am glad others love it enough to work in restaurants. ;)

 

I'd only have one of my kids go this route if they had already worked in a restaurant and knew exactly what they were getting into. The successful grads from our school who choose this route have done just that. One has been quite successful. Those with only home cooking experience coupled with Foods classes in high school who decide to become a chef have less success and can end up with a bit of debt and no certificate or job. Some community colleges also provide good paths for culinary careers for less cost.

 

It'd be interesting to see the overall success rate (living wage and able to pay off debt, if any) of various paths.

 

(Like Jane, I also count this as post secondary education. I don't limit that to 4 year degrees.)

[Barb_]

There has to be something that sets those who are able to obtain jobs, post Bachelor's,apart from those who are resigned to be over-educated baristas and bartenders. I believe it's this:

 

There is much talk among his classmates about grading curves and easy classes. Like Hughes with his lengthy degree odyssey, many have transferred one or more times, juggled work and classes, "stopped out," then re-enrolled. For them, there has been no idyllic campus life discussing heady ideas on the green: The prevailing attitude has become "just get the piece of paper."

 

More people are walking away with degrees than in years past, but the piece of paper is simply a way to make it over the first hurdle. There is no faking intelligence, competence, maturity and work ethic.