Co-op class = high school credit?

[Sue G in PA]

We are considering joining a co-op next year. It is for all ages and there will be 3 classes for each age group. The high school classes include a very hands-on environmental science class taught by a former public high school teacher (the man sounds like a great teacher, but hates textbooks, tests, etc.). The other 2 classes are Government w/ Speech/Debate and American Lit. Here is my question (bc I cannot wrap my brain around this). How could I possibly give my child 1 credit for each of these classes when each is only 1 hr. to 1 1/2 hrs. ONE DAY each week? The woman teaching Government said she would give 1/2 credit for speech as well as 1/2 credit for government (or even a full government credit). There wouldn't be much homework (perhaps some reading or a bit of research to prepare for the debates). :confused: If each credit = 180 hrs. this simply does not compute. Am I missing something here? Thanks for your help!

[laughing lioness]

How could I possibly give my child 1 credit for each of these classes when each is only 1 hr. to 1 1/2 hrs. ONE DAY each week? The woman teaching Government said she would give 1/2 credit for speech as well as 1/2 credit for government (or even a full government credit). There wouldn't be much homework (perhaps some reading or a bit of research to prepare for the debates). :confused: If each credit = 180 hrs. this simply does not compute. Am I missing something here? Thanks for your help!

 

Common practice. I don't really see the point as the concept of a Carnegie Unit (a "credit") is to show that the student has spent X amount of time learning and understanding the material.

The fact of the matter is that most co-ops can't/don't assing grades, or keep transcripts, the parent does.

Does the course meet for 24/36 weeks? Start from there and fill in until you have the course you can, in good conscious, give 1/4 (what's the point?), 1/2 or full credit.

A carnegie is between 120-180 hours- I've read both.

[Sue G in PA]

That was kind of my thought as well. I couldn't in good conscience give a full credit for those classes unless other work was being done at home. I want dd to take the Government simply for the debate/speech aspect. She is already taking Government as part of MFW next year so this will be a nice tie-in. American Lit, same thing. The science class will cost extra and I'm just not sure about it. Thanks!

[Love_to_Read]

I taught science experiments in a coop setting...twice a month...and my thought was that it was a good supplement for kids who might not have access to the same materials at home. Shrug. But I was astounded by the number of students who weren't studying that science at home. I guess I can see why some of them came anyway, just as socialization/enrichment even though they were in a different science at home, but I sure hope no one was claiming it as a stand-alone credit! Since yours is being taught by a former teacher of the subject, I'd find out whether there is an assigned textbook and such. It's theoretically possible there could be enough weekly assignments for it to count, but it would be a committment for that to be your science, your daily full time science course at home supplemented by weekly labs at coop.

[Jenny in Florida]

I agree with The Lioness.

 

I've never done the co-op thing at the high school level, but I've used curricula or online resources that are designed to be half credit courses and added to them at home to create a full credit.

 

So, if the co-op is doing environmental science for an hour a week, why not find a text or other resources on the same subject and have your student work through those at home?

[Love_to_Read]

Re-reading your OP...the man hates textbooks and tests...well, in that case, you'd have to pick your own text and figure out grades. So yeah, it would be a lot of legwork on your part. But for environmental science...if he gave you a syllabus, you might be able to cover the topics each week with reading and writing on them. You might have your student journal what happened in lab. I suppose the reading could also be done after the experiments...see it first, then learn more about it...almost like an unschooling approach in which you generate the interest first and follow it (until the next lab day on a new topic). It could be a really great hands-on experience, or it could be a really shoddy year...I guess I would want to see a syllabus to compare quantity of info covered with whatever textbook brand you would normally choose to do science on your own. Experiments are expensive, so it may be cheaper as a group...it's just a lot of work to get yourself correlated with him...but it might be worth it.

[Sue G in PA]

That is a good idea. We never get around to doing ALL the labs associated with our science curriculum. We could use this science class for that purpose and I could have my dd read through and do the written work for Apologia Physics. I guess that might work? The other classes I figured I would count as supplement...and could possibly use the debate portion of Government as that 1/2 credit of speech (counting the research and prep time at home).

[shanvan]

Common practice. I don't really see the point as the concept of a Carnegie Unit (a "credit") is to show that the student has spent X amount of time learning and understanding the material.

The fact of the matter is that most co-ops can't/don't assing grades, or keep transcripts, the parent does.

Does the course meet for 24/36 weeks? Start from there and fill in until you have the course you can, in good conscious, give 1/4 (what's the point?), 1/2 or full credit.

A carnegie is between 120-180 hours- I've read both.

 

Yep. This is why we don't participate in co-op classes. They don't fulfill the requirements and yet suck up time and usually provide plenty of drama (not the coursework type). Whenever Ds has taken a course at our local homeschool group it has not accomplished any of my goals and I have ended up having to do the teaching anyway while he still attempted to meet the teachers expectations which were not my goals for the subject. Frustrating.

 

In an effort to convince us to participate in co-op classes I am constantly being told that if Ds would just take them he would get high school credit (accompanied with a wide-eyed incredulous look) because it's being taught by a real teacher (they appoint one teacher instead of taking turns). I feel like a broken record stating over an over to these women that it is the time and mastery that make any course of study creditworthy and not the magical teacher or co-op. Ironically, some of these people know I am a real teacher (have my degree and certification for k-8 and English).

 

Now there are some parents who I know will assign the appropriate work at home to make the co-op class credit worthy, but the vast majority I speak with will not even investigate if the amount of homework, class time, etc, meet requirements. Somehow they are under the impression that all they need to do is send their dc to the magic teacher. When I explain I get a blank look. We haven't been involved witht he local co-op for the last 5 years and I have to wonder if the leaders of this group are actually perpetuating this idea in an effort to get more families to participate.

 

Sometimes the parents giving me all the advice on how to make high school easier have children who are several years away from high school age. I can only hope they will be better informed by the time their Dc reach 9th.

 

[shanvan]

I taught science experiments in a coop setting...twice a month...and my thought was that it was a good supplement for kids who might not have access to the same materials at home. Shrug. But I was astounded by the number of students who weren't studying that science at home. I guess I can see why some of them came anyway, just as socialization/enrichment even though they were in a different science at home, but I sure hope no one was claiming it as a stand-alone credit! Since yours is being taught by a former teacher of the subject, I'd find out whether there is an assigned textbook and such. It's theoretically possible there could be enough weekly assignments for it to count, but it would be a committment for that to be your science, your daily full time science course at home supplemented by weekly labs at coop.

 

I hate to say it, but I'm sure some claimed it as a credit. The whole taking a high school co-op for socialization thing bothers me since it creates a lack of seriousness, respect for the coursework and the teacher (at least it did at our local co-op). It's one of the reasons we left. I was tired of spending my time preparing lessons for kids who were told by their parents that the purpose was to get out and socialize.

[8filltheheart]

Yep. This is why we don't participate in co-op classes. They don't fulfill the requirements and yet suck up time and usually provide plenty of drama (not the coursework type). Whenever Ds has taken a course at our local homeschool group it has not accomplished any of my goals and I have ended up having to do the teaching anyway while he still attempted to meet the teachers expectations which were not my goals for the subject. Frustrating.

 

In an effort to convince us to participate in co-op classes I am constantly being told that if Ds would just take them he would get high school credit (accompanied with a wide-eyed incredulous look) because it's being taught by a real teacher (they appoint one teacher instead of taking turns). I feel like a broken record stating over an over to these women that it is the time and mastery that make any course of study creditworthy and not the magical teacher or co-op. Ironically, some of these people know I am a real teacher (have my degree and certification for k-8 and English).

 

Now there are some parents who I know will assign the appropriate work at home to make the co-op class credit worthy, but the vast majority I speak with will not even investigate if the amount of homework, class time, etc, meet requirements. Somehow they are under the impression that all they need to do is send their dc to the magic teacher. When I explain I get a blank look. We haven't been involved witht he local co-op for the last 5 years and I have to wonder if the leaders of this group are actually perpetuating this idea in an effort to get more families to participate.

 

Sometimes the parents giving me all the advice on how to make high school easier have children who are several years away from high school age. I can only hope they will be better informed by the time their Dc reach 9th.

 

 

 

May I say that I couldn't agree w/a post more??? For those w/high academic standards or competitve goals, keeping the home in homeschooling is probably a better plan. ;)

[homebody2k]

Our Co-op offers amazing classes - but they are really the discussions (history, speech) or the experiments with some review(science). The kids are expected to do the "real work" at home. But the discussions that the kids engage in at co-op are priceless....

every co-op is different - and I would ask more questions of the leaders - don't miss a great opportunity based on what someone said,someone said the classes were going to be - talk to the class leaders...:thumbup:

[Sue G in PA]

Many of my friends used co-op classes to fulfill a credit...using it a stand-alone class w/out supplementing at home. It had me shaking my head. Some co-op classes around here are fairly rigorous...having the students do the majority of the work at home during the week and using the co-op class for discussion making it, quite possible, credit worthy. This is my plan for co-op this year. The MFW curriculum we use schedules "light" Fridays making this quite do-able for us and I think the benefit will be great (hands-on science that I cannot provide, debate, speech, etc.). I just couldn't see using it to fulfill a credit all on its own. Thanks for the feedback.

[shanvan]

That is a good idea. We never get around to doing ALL the labs associated with our science curriculum. We could use this science class for that purpose and I could have my dd read through and do the written work for Apologia Physics. I guess that might work? The other classes I figured I would count as supplement...and could possibly use the debate portion of Government as that 1/2 credit of speech (counting the research and prep time at home).

 

After my post/rant about high school credit, I wanted to add that Ds may be doing something similar this year. I am thinking about signing him up for biology labs with a local teacher who will not be teaching at co-ops. He would read/study the text outline and take tests at home. This seems doable, however I don't know the teacher very well and am growing somewhat suspicious of the academic quality based on the names of those who are participating. I hate to say it, but they are parents who would have no problem using a 10 week co-op class for HS credit. So that puts me on the fence.

 

If the co-op courses you are considering line up with your goals, and are serious classes when they meet, and you are willing to put the work into designing coursework at home, then the co-op might be worth it.

Edited June 28, 2012 by shanvan

[laughing lioness]

I hate to say it, but I'm sure some claimed it as a credit. The whole taking a high school co-op for socialization thing bothers me since it creates a lack of seriousness, respect for the coursework and the teacher (at least it did at our local co-op). It's one of the reasons we left. I was tired of spending my time preparing lessons for kids who were told by their parents that the purpose was to get out and socialize.

:iagree:And I've heard too many times to count, "My girls are just going to be stay at home wifes/ homeschoolers so it doesn't matter anyway." ARGH!!!

[Sue G in PA]

We are waiting on the syllabus from this teacher. He was a very highly regarded public school science teacher at a good public school in our area (25 years ago!). Students raved about him. Obviously he has retired but still runs many local science camps, environmental camps, etc. I'm wondering how it would tie in with a Physics curriculum but after I see the syllabus I can go from there and see what text I could use as our main text. The co-op leader has informed him that he will need to develop some sort of test or diagnostic tool b/c students will need "proof" for portfolios, etc. LOL. I'm getting excited about this, actually.

[Sue G in PA]

"My girls are just going to be stay at home wifes/ homeschoolers so it doesn't matter anyway." ARGH!!!

 

How does one truly know? Ugh. Not to take this thread in another direction, but really? My dd isn't a "sciency" kid and I'm fairly certain her future does not include a career related to science, HOWEVER, I cannot in good conscience count a 36 wk/36 hour course as a credit unless there is substantial at home work involved and the co-op class is used as the lab portion or discussion or whatever. KWIM? Even if dd wants to be a stay-at-home mom.

[laughing lioness]

How does one truly know? .

 

Exactly. And furthermore, if they are just homeschoolers, wouldn't we want them as educated as possible to raise our grandkids. Not to mention what a slam it is on what the mom's, and every other homeschooler, is doing! (to paraphrase a scene from an Anne Lamott book, "what the h*ll ever happened to the women's movement?!).

[teachermom2834]

Sometimes a co-op class can be worthwhile and a positive experience but not be credit worthy.

 

Sometimes those things can be counted as an extracurricular or you can add to it to make it a credit. My 9th grade ds will be taking 3 co-op classes next year. One will supplement what we are doing at home and be included in our academic coursework and count towards earning a credit. One class will probably be akin to a book club. One class will likely just be a good personal experience.

 

We can pick and choose classes at our co-op to fit our needs. That's the way I like it. As long as it isn't a huge time suck, there are plenty of experiences that are worthwhile even if not credit worthy.

[shanvan]

Sometimes a co-op class can be worthwhile and a positive experience but not be credit worthy.

 

Sometimes those things can be counted as an extracurricular or you can add to it to make it a credit. My 9th grade ds will be taking 3 co-op classes next year. One will supplement what we are doing at home and be included in our academic coursework and count towards earning a credit. One class will probably be akin to a book club. One class will likely just be a good personal experience.

 

We can pick and choose classes at our co-op to fit our needs. That's the way I like it. As long as it isn't a huge time suck, there are plenty of experiences that are worthwhile even if not credit worthy.

 

Yes, but the Op's original question was concerning credits.

[jessicalb]

I tend to agree with all of the concerns regarding awarding credits for showing up once a week. We have been involved in many co-ops in the past that I just had to decide were not part of our curriculum and were a play time with some educational shine to them, or we quit them.

 

This year I am putting together a 9th grade biology co-op, and one of the things I told the moms was that if we have any problems with extraneous mom drama, kids not participating, disruptive siblings, etc, that I will politely and firmly tell them to leave. My child deserves a good solid biology course with meetings with other invested kids to do labs. I will not shortchange him for the entertainment of others. Crossing my fingers!!! :)

 

Oh, and I wouldn't award a credit for showing up once a week or every other week. We do several hours a week of work on each subject outside of any co-ops we are in. I think that is imperative to make it a "real" credit and to solidly cover the material.

Edited June 28, 2012 by jessicalb
Forgot something, spelling, it's early, etc.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

When I wrote up the discriptions for the intro lit class I'm teaching I tried to be blunt about the workload (5-10 hours/ week).

 

Fortunately last year's teacher was strict about homework. She would send kids out of class who hadn't done the work. I think she may have actually asked one student to change classes for chronic unpreparedness. I like that model.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

True, which is why I spent days writing the course discription for my class this year. I didn't want to set up a mismatch of expectations.

[elegantlion]

Our state specifically says you can count a credit for anything 100 hours and over for homeschoolers. Even though I may use that for a few classes, I think it's exceedingly low. So a 36 hour class, even if you add an hour of homework each week would not fulfill a minimal credit.

 

I like your magic button analogy. I've seen it in real life so many times. I worked for a vet and people would think we had a magic button in back to fix whatever they neglected in their pet for years.

 

My dh was in construction, there is no magic button for a bathroom remodel.

 

I'm having a heck of a time feeling prepared for fall for many reasons. One of them is the responsibility I feel to do this "right" (knowing that varies for everyone). My son is an average student, but I'm not setting him up to do minimal work in anything. But apparently I do many things in life the hard way. :lol:

[KarenC]

I would really rather not because I think it's a waste of time academically. Dd wants to be around more kids though and I do understand that. She will be taking a Presidential Politics class that will fit in with our American Government class. I require 150 hours for a credit. The American Government class will be 1/2 credit. The co-op class will meet for 16 hours. So she will be required to complete 59 hours of work outside of class.

 

She is also taking a photography course, again for 16 hours. We are hoping that more art classes wil be available in the spring. Then we will combine all of the art class into a half credit of fine arts.

 

Karen

[sattlers1]

Absolutely! If the only education the child is going to get is home school high school, it better be a strong education in a wide variety of subjects. IMHO

 

Julie

[sattlers1]

"She is also taking a photography course, again for 16 hours. We are hoping that more art classes wil be available in the spring. Then we will combine all of the art class into a half credit of fine arts."

 

My dd is taking a photography class at our coop this fall and a few other classes. I read it somewhere and it makes good sense, it is also important for them to have outside activities. So some things can be rounded out to count for a 1/2 or whole credit, but some are just good to say, "this child has interests in things outside of traditional subjects."

[jessicalb]

So some things can be rounded out to count for a 1/2 or whole credit, but some are just good to say, "this child has interests in things outside of traditional subjects."

 

I agree with this. Plus it looks kind of suspicious if you give them so many credits (even if they earn them) that they graduate with a lot more than the traditional highschooler. I think it can reduce credibility.

[SkateLeft]

:iagree:And I've heard too many times to count, "My girls are just going to be stay at home wifes/ homeschoolers so it doesn't matter anyway." ARGH!!!

 

Along those lines, it drives me NUTS when people me blow off because they find out that my future engineer is a GIRL. Anyway, that's a whole different soapbox... :tongue_smilie:

 

As a homeschooler venturing into the realm of college admissions, I think it generally does us all a disservice when people award full high school credit for little to no work and expect their kids to apply to college and do well. Sometimes I wonder if that's why some of us have to jump through so many hoops to verify what we've done to admissions folks.

 

I wouldn't award credit for a co-op class unless it required a significant investment in my child's time.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Along those lines, it drives me NUTS when people me blow off because they find out that my future engineer is a GIRL. Anyway, that's a whole different soapbox... :tongue_smilie:

 

As a homeschooler venturing into the realm of college admissions, I think it generally does us all a disservice when people award full high school credit for little to no work and expect their kids to apply to college and do well. Sometimes I wonder if that's why some of us have to jump through so many hoops to verify what we've done to admissions folks.

I wouldn't award credit for a co-op class unless it required a significant investment in my child's time.

 

I think the routine availability of coops and outside classes is far greater than it was a decade ago. Back then, homeschoolers were often asked to provide information because admissions didn't know what home schooling was.

 

I think now they are much more familiar with what it is, but also realize that there are varying levels of quality and preparation, just as there is with B&M schools. Without grades (yes subjective, but also comparable to other recent graduates of the same school) or class standing, it can be difficult for admissions to determine if someone is the sort of student that will thrive at their school.

 

I am not interested in schools that want silly things (like statements from the school that I've met some requirement or a diploma from a company that portrays itself as a guarantor of homeschool quality), but I'm less offended by the idea of presenting SAT2 subject tests. There was a time that I thought this was unfair toward homeschoolers. But there can be quite a quality spread from family to family.