Lying to catch lying?

[Kathryn]

A mom that I know doesn't see a problem with this and I'm wondering if I'm off in my opinion here. She was asking about what to do about her six-year-old son's constant lying and said this:

 

"Thing is, he thinks we have video cameras hidden through the house which makes it easy to get him to own up to things he has done wrong (long story short, he saw the video monitor in his sister's room and was convinced there are more). All we have to do is say we are going to check the cameras and he will fess up. He understands we punish for the lying itself. That it's the worst part of all and is the reason behind punishment."

 

I cautioned her about lying in order to catch lying, especially when it's something that he's obviously going to realize one day and that it would probably cause him to not trust them and invalidate the lesson they're trying to teach. She responded:

 

"See, and I've thought about that too Kathryn, but we "lie" about Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, etc... If I can use the thought that we have a few hidden cameras in the house to get the truth out of him when his sister starts crying in the other room and he goes into the whole "I have no idea what happened, I didn't touch her and I was no where near her" and I say "okay I'll check the cameras" and his reply is "okay okay okay, I was trying to play with my _______ and she took it from me and I pushed her down" then I'm going to."

 

I just don't see the lie to create fun childhood memories as comparable to lying to catch him in the act of lying which you then punish because you say lying is wrong. Am I weird in thinking this? What do other think?

[Marylou]

She's setting her son up to not trust them in the future.

[kricau]

Man that's a tough one ??? She has a point, we do lie about Santa, ToothFairy, etc... But hidden cameras LOL I don't know, it just feels wrong to me. I think she needs to sit down and reason with him, ask him how he would feel if little sis had to go to the hospital for something he did to her.And when he doesn't tell the truth right away, it makes it worse. My kids fight with each other too. But deep down they love each other and when one of them gets hurt, the other feels bad.

 

I think there is a book about this, maybe Bearenstain Bears???

[MindyD]

Practically speaking, it's going to backfire on her one day. She'll say "Okay, I'm going to check the cameras," and he'll say, "I don't care!" Then what will she do? This one could have bad natural consequences for her.

[*********]

Well, dh and I *don't* lie to our kids. We don't do tooth fairy, Santa, etc.

 

Because lying is wrong.

 

Sure, we use discretion in answering questions sometimes. But we don't lie.

 

Honestly, I think she's being a hypocrite.

[K&Rs Mom]

Well, dh and I *don't* lie to our kids. We don't do tooth fairy, Santa, etc.

 

Because lying is wrong.

 

Sure, we use discretion in answering questions sometimes. But we don't lie.

 

Honestly, I think she's being a hypocrite.

 

:iagree: except with the hypocrite part - clearly she's okay with lying (re: santa), so why would the camera lie be different than the others? I think it would be more hypocritical to claim she doesn't lie to dc, when she does lie about the characters.

 

On the original question of lying to catch a lie, it sounds a lot like the parents who spank to stop kids from hitting. :001_huh: Not uncommon, but really doesn't make any sense if you think about it at all.

[Cassy]

My kids believe that I really have eyes in the back of my head :tongue_smilie:. Well, OK, maybe DS13 has cottoned on by now.

 

:D

[oasis]

Well, dh and I *don't* lie to our kids. We don't do tooth fairy, Santa, etc.

 

Because lying is wrong.

 

Sure, we use discretion in answering questions sometimes. But we don't lie.

 

Honestly, I think she's being a hypocrite.

 

:iagree:

[Starr]

Her cameras don't show what led up to the behavior. :(

[SKL]

At some point she's going to say "I'm gonna check the cameras" and he'll say "yes, let's, because then you'll see I was telling the truth." That will be the end of that.

 

I don't know if a kid will connect grown-up lying to kid lying. Little kids don't really see us as the same species, do they? They accept the unspoken rule that adults get to do stuff kids don't get to do, including stuff they get punished for. So honestly, I wouldn't lose sleep over that. I just think they ought to find a more reliable method that won't backfire.

 

Not that it's any of our business how they discipline their kid . . . .

 

When my kids seem to be lying but I'm not 100% sure, I just say "God knows whether you're telling the truth," give general admonitions to everyone, and move on to the next thing. Fact is, I don't always know "who started it" etc., and there's not much I can do about that.

[kolamum]

What about saying you've got eyes in the back of your head? ;)

[WishboneDawn]

Wow.

 

She's focused on the wrong things. She's focused on stopping the lying, not on building character so her son will feel compelled to tell the truth. She's also focused on him not lying in their house. It's an easy lesson to learn that she doesn't have video cameras everywhere and so he can lie when he's out and about.

 

It's very easy and lazy parenting. The kind we've all done from time to time but I hope I would be too embarrassed to admit, let alone justify, to a friend.

[Dory]

Wow, even if you son comes away from this with the thought that only grown ups can lie, I don't think that would be the lesson his parents are wanting to teach him.

We don't lie to our kids. They have known from the start that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy are all just made up and used to help make things more fun. We have taught them the difference between make believe and real life. I see them lieing as an opportunity to help them develop their character. I have had a few talks with my oldest about lieing, who it hurts, how it affects others, and if it really did help him any. I don't want them not to lie, just cause they will get caught, I want them not to lie, because they know the harm it can do.

[Word Nerd]

I just don't see the lie to create fun childhood memories as comparable to lying to catch him in the act of lying which you then punish because you say lying is wrong. Am I weird in thinking this? What do other think?

 

Honestly, I don't see much difference between the two. Both are lies that parents may try to justify for one reason or another.

[EducationX2]

I don't see it as comparable either. And I'm teaching my daughter the same thing. Sorry, but there are times in life where you have to "lie", either by omission, or little white lies, or what have you. Life isn't black and white. For example, when a child gets a gift from an elderly relative and the gift is... well, you know how those gifts can get sometimes. :tongue_smilie:What happens when that relative says to the child "Do you like it?" Do you teach your child to be honest no matter what? I've taught my daughter that sometimes in order to spare the feelings of those around us we have to hide the truth a little. Which, to be technical, is lying. As my daughter so sweetly informed me. :lol:

 

It's the intent behind your statement that matters.

[SKL]

For the record, my parents "lied" to me about Santa Claus, and I still grew up a very honest person.

 

I recall my mom saying "I would rather hear nothing than hear a lie." That said, I caught her in an occasional lie. When much older, I realized why she told those lies, e.g., "I don't know why my dd would make that up, I never said you were __." :tongue_smilie:

 

I did have some siblings who were less particular about honesty than I was, so who knows what really makes the difference?

 

I do believe it depends on the age of the child. I think that up to around age 4+/-, kids can't really understand the moral/psychological problem of lying. When my kids seemed to be telling "big ones" at that age, I just said "uh huh" or pointed out why that was extremely unlikely. Now they are 5 and I focus on (a) not intimidating them into lying and (b) telling them that I can't trust anything they say if they tend to lie. I also never lie in front of them or to them. When it comes to Santa and such, I say "that's what they say" and stuff like that.

[Dory]

I don't see it as comparable either. And I'm teaching my daughter the same thing. Sorry, but there are times in life where you have to "lie", either by omission, or little white lies, or what have you. Life isn't black and white. For example, when a child gets a gift from an elderly relative and the gift is... well, you know how those gifts can get sometimes. :tongue_smilie:What happens when that relative says to the child "Do you like it?" Do you teach your child to be honest no matter what? I've taught my daughter that sometimes in order to spare the feelings of those around us we have to hide the truth a little. Which, to be technical, is lying. As my daughter so sweetly informed me. :lol:

 

It's the intent behind your statement that matters.

 

I was always taught that it's an opportunity to find something interesting about the object to talk about instead of lieing. Like, It's so colorful, it reminds me of your garden Grandma, Thank you. (my grandma had a strange way of putting colors together). Or the color of this shirt matches my eyes perfectly, thank you! (which it did, and I was thankful to be loved and thought of which is what gifts are about). In other words, even if we didn't find something to our taste, it was a chance to see it through their eyes and pick out what it was that drew them to that gift.

[justLisa]

I was always taught that it's an opportunity to find something interesting about the object to talk about instead of lieing. Like, It's so colorful, it reminds me of your garden Grandma, Thank you. (my grandma had a strange way of putting colors together). Or the color of this shirt matches my eyes perfectly, thank you! (which it did, and I was thankful to be loved and thought of which is what gifts are about). In other words, even if we didn't find something to our taste, it was a chance to see it through their eyes and pick out what it was that drew them to that gift.

 

I must not be very creative. I have never considered saying thank you I like your gift lying. Or what about "do I look fat in this?" :lol:

[UmMusa]

Honestly, I don't see much difference between the two. Both are lies that parents may try to justify for one reason or another.

:iagree:

 

For the OP: the mom is wrong to lie. Even with teenagers, it is recommended that if you know they've lied to you about where they've been to just say it upfront in the conversation. It builds trust. They recommend you don't carry on a conversation trying to 'trap' them into getting caught.

[K&Rs Mom]

I don't see it as comparable either. And I'm teaching my daughter the same thing. Sorry, but there are times in life where you have to "lie", either by omission, or little white lies, or what have you. Life isn't black and white. For example, when a child gets a gift from an elderly relative and the gift is... well, you know how those gifts can get sometimes. :tongue_smilie:What happens when that relative says to the child "Do you like it?" Do you teach your child to be honest no matter what? I've taught my daughter that sometimes in order to spare the feelings of those around us we have to hide the truth a little. Which, to be technical, is lying. As my daughter so sweetly informed me. :lol:

 

It's the intent behind your statement that matters.

 

We do teach them to be honest no matter what. In the gift situation, if they really, really can't think of even one good thing about it (at least "I like the color" or "I've never seen anything like it" ;) ), we tell them to say: "It was nice of you to think of me" - because it was.

[Rivka]

Oh great, we can fight the Santa wars in June, too. :tongue_smilie:

 

Of course there is a difference between pleasant fantasies like Santa, kind untruths like "no, I think dinner tastes just fine," and convincing your son that he's living with the Stasi.

 

The first two are not manipulative, and they're done with kind intent. The hidden camera lie is instrumental - it's lying to get something you want. It's lying to manipulate someone to act in a way they otherwise wouldn't choose to do. There's no way to frame that as a good thing.

 

Instrumental lies (to get something, to stay out of trouble) are what I'm trying to teach my child not to tell. I'm not trying to steer her away from lovely fantasies or kind social untruths. (In fact, I burst with pride when a kid came to her birthday party without a present and she said, "Just your being here is a present!" Do I think she really felt that way? No, which is why I was so proud.) So I would be particularly careful about avoiding instrumental lies to her.

 

Now, if this person is in the habit of threatening her kids with "Santa's watching... if you do that one more time, I'll write to Santa... Better be careful or Santa won't bring you any presents..." then yes, I agree, lying about cameras is no different than that. But in that case I think she should cut both of them out, not justify one with the other.

[Guest submarines]

Oh great, we can fight the Santa wars in June, too. :tongue_smilie:

 

Of course there is a difference between pleasant fantasies like Santa, kind untruths like "no, I think dinner tastes just fine," and convincing your son that he's living with the Stasi.

 

The first two are not manipulative, and they're done with kind intent. The hidden camera lie is instrumental - it's lying to get something you want. It's lying to manipulate someone to act in a way they otherwise wouldn't choose to do. There's no way to frame that as a good thing.

 

Instrumental lies (to get something, to stay out of trouble) are what I'm trying to teach my child not to tell. I'm not trying to steer her away from lovely fantasies or kind social untruths. (In fact, I burst with pride when a kid came to her birthday party without a present and she said, "Just your being here is a present!" Do I think she really felt that way? No, which is why I was so proud.) So I would be particularly careful about avoiding instrumental lies to her.

 

Now, if this person is in the habit of threatening her kids with "Santa's watching... if you do that one more time, I'll write to Santa... Better be careful or Santa won't bring you any presents..." then yes, I agree, lying about cameras is no different than that. But in that case I think she should cut both of them out, not justify one with the other.

 

:iagree:

[Cassy]

Oh great, we can fight the Santa wars in June, too. :tongue_smilie:

 

Of course there is a difference between pleasant fantasies like Santa, kind untruths like "no, I think dinner tastes just fine," and convincing your son that he's living with the Stasi.

 

The first two are not manipulative, and they're done with kind intent. The hidden camera lie is instrumental - it's lying to get something you want. It's lying to manipulate someone to act in a way they otherwise wouldn't choose to do. There's no way to frame that as a good thing.

 

Instrumental lies (to get something, to stay out of trouble) are what I'm trying to teach my child not to tell. I'm not trying to steer her away from lovely fantasies or kind social untruths. (In fact, I burst with pride when a kid came to her birthday party without a present and she said, "Just your being here is a present!" Do I think she really felt that way? No, which is why I was so proud.) So I would be particularly careful about avoiding instrumental lies to her.

 

Now, if this person is in the habit of threatening her kids with "Santa's watching... if you do that one more time, I'll write to Santa... Better be careful or Santa won't bring you any presents..." then yes, I agree, lying about cameras is no different than that. But in that case I think she should cut both of them out, not justify one with the other.

 

:iagree: I'm so glad there's someone articulate enough to say what I was struggling to express.

[Kelly1730]

Wow, even if you son comes away from this with the thought that only grown ups can lie, I don't think that would be the lesson his parents are wanting to teach him.

We don't lie to our kids. They have known from the start that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy are all just made up and used to help make things more fun. We have taught them the difference between make believe and real life. I see them lieing as an opportunity to help them develop their character. I have had a few talks with my oldest about lieing, who it hurts, how it affects others, and if it really did help him any. I don't want them not to lie, just cause they will get caught, I want them not to lie, because they know the harm it can do.[/quote/]

 

:iagree: Exactly.

[EducationX2]

:iagree: I'm so glad there's someone articulate enough to say what I was struggling to express.

 

:iagree:I was also struggling to say this. Clearly we needed Rivka in this conversation! :D

[LaxMom]

My kids believe that I really have eyes in the back of my head :tongue_smilie:. Well, OK, maybe DS13 has cottoned on by now.

 

:D

 

I was thinking the same. I remember catching my oldest doing something in my mother's kitchen as I walked up the stairs on the other side of the wall from her. I could see her reflected in the French doors. :lol: I'm fairly certain she has come to the conclusion the I cannot see all things by now (she's 23), but she certainly thought I could for a while. In my view, that's "external conscience" before they grow an internal one.

 

I'm not so sure about the camera thing, though. I didn't disabuse her of an assumption she made about my motherly abilities... Sort of along the same lines as telling them mothers always know when they're lying, but not tipping them off about their "tell". I'm not sure that's the same as telling the kids we have cameras all over the house, though.

[Dustybug]

Well, dh and I *don't* lie to our kids. We don't do tooth fairy, Santa, etc.

 

Because lying is wrong.

 

Sure, we use discretion in answering questions sometimes. But we don't lie.

 

Honestly, I think she's being a hypocrite.

 

 

:iagree:

[Kathryn]

Oh great, we can fight the Santa wars in June, too. :tongue_smilie:

 

Of course there is a difference between pleasant fantasies like Santa, kind untruths like "no, I think dinner tastes just fine," and convincing your son that he's living with the Stasi.

 

The first two are not manipulative, and they're done with kind intent. The hidden camera lie is instrumental - it's lying to get something you want. It's lying to manipulate someone to act in a way they otherwise wouldn't choose to do. There's no way to frame that as a good thing.

 

Instrumental lies (to get something, to stay out of trouble) are what I'm trying to teach my child not to tell. I'm not trying to steer her away from lovely fantasies or kind social untruths. (In fact, I burst with pride when a kid came to her birthday party without a present and she said, "Just your being here is a present!" Do I think she really felt that way? No, which is why I was so proud.) So I would be particularly careful about avoiding instrumental lies to her.

 

Now, if this person is in the habit of threatening her kids with "Santa's watching... if you do that one more time, I'll write to Santa... Better be careful or Santa won't bring you any presents..." then yes, I agree, lying about cameras is no different than that. But in that case I think she should cut both of them out, not justify one with the other.

 

Thank you for this. You've articulated my thoughts much better than I was able to do.

[LillyMama]

Wow.

 

She's focused on the wrong things. She's focused on stopping the lying, not on building character so her son will feel compelled to tell the truth. She's also focused on him not lying in their house. It's an easy lesson to learn that she doesn't have video cameras everywhere and so he can lie when he's out and about.

 

It's very easy and lazy parenting. The kind we've all done from time to time but I hope I would be too embarrassed to admit, let alone justify, to a friend.

 

:iagree:

 

This is an interesting perspective, and, I think, a challenging one for us all. It is sometimes tempting to take the easy path, and I would agree that that is what the mom is doing.

 

For what it's worth, we talked about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but were always pretty clear that they were pretend, just like all the other characters they might watch on TV. We said, "They're just pretend people we like to tell stories about because it's fun and we like to make you smile and laugh." So just having your kids know about the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus doesn't mean you're lying. It takes a bit more work and creativity to allow your kids to have fun stories and still be honest with them, but it's worth it. We get the best of both worlds- kids who won't question our honesty and kids who still get to play along with the stories of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. So, back to the point, I do think it could be a sign of laziness, or instant gratification, at the least.

 

Thanks for that reminder, I have some areas in my own parenting that could use some inspection. ;)

[Trish]

This can be easily solved.

 

Install the cameras!

 

:D

[Word Nerd]

nt

Edited June 26, 2012 by WordGirl

[Kathryn]

:iagree:

 

This is an interesting perspective, and, I think, a challenging one for us all. It is sometimes tempting to take the easy path, and I would agree that that is what the mom is doing.

 

For what it's worth, we talked about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but were always pretty clear that they were pretend, just like all the other characters they might watch on TV. We said, "They're just pretend people we like to tell stories about because it's fun and we like to make you smile and laugh." So just having your kids know about the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus doesn't mean you're lying. It takes a bit more work and creativity to allow your kids to have fun stories and still be honest with them, but it's worth it. We get the best of both worlds- kids who won't question our honesty and kids who still get to play along with the stories of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. So, back to the point, I do think it could be a sign of laziness, or instant gratification, at the least.

 

Thanks for that reminder, I have some areas in my own parenting that could use some inspection. ;)

 

I'm intrigued by this. Can you elaborate on how it looks for them to know that they're not "real" characters, but still participate in the enjoyment of them? We do them, but we've never been comfortable with them and this sounds like it might be a better solution for us.

 

And thanks everyone for the thoughts. It's really helped me to think about my own interactions with my children.

[Hwin]

My son can't figure out how we know he's lying, so he's determined that we have "Information Eyes." It does get him to fess up. "Mom, did you know that with your information eyes?" Shrug. "What do you think?"

 

FWIW, we don't do tooth fairy, santa, etc, although sometimes he wants to pretend, so we do. (ie he wrote the tooth fairy a note to let her know that I accidentally tossed his tooth in the trash, even though he knows I gave him the quarter.)

[MomatHWTK]

We don't lie about the fantasy characters either. The kids are aware that they "exist" because they've seen them mentioned elsewhere. The Tooth Fairy, etc. are just like any other imaginary friend- the kids can still make up stories even if they know the characters aren't real.

 

 

I agree with the poster who indicated catching the lie doesn't solve the problem. I want to address my child's heart, not just his behavior. Though I admit, sometimes I would love the quick way out of the behavior!

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree:

 

This is an interesting perspective, and, I think, a challenging one for us all. It is sometimes tempting to take the easy path, and I would agree that that is what the mom is doing.

 

For what it's worth, we talked about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but were always pretty clear that they were pretend, just like all the other characters they might watch on TV. We said, "They're just pretend people we like to tell stories about because it's fun and we like to make you smile and laugh." So just having your kids know about the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus doesn't mean you're lying. It takes a bit more work and creativity to allow your kids to have fun stories and still be honest with them, but it's worth it. We get the best of both worlds- kids who won't question our honesty and kids who still get to play along with the stories of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. So, back to the point, I do think it could be a sign of laziness, or instant gratification, at the least.

 

Thanks for that reminder, I have some areas in my own parenting that could use some inspection. ;)

 

We do Santa and the Easter Bunny. I'm not attached to it and would happily not but my family, my DH and his family all do Santa so that's what I've gone along with.

 

The kids have not questioned our honesty as a result when they found out. I don't think their whole view of our honesty rests on a few childhood myths we constructed. I certainly don't question the honesty of my parents because they also did the Santa thing with us.

 

There are good reasons for a family choosing not to do Santa. I can think of more then a few because I'd tend to be on your side of the Santa fence if it were all up to me but I don't think it's an issue with great moral, ethical or relationship implications in a healthy, loving family. To me, again in a healthy, loving family, it's a neutral and good things and warm memories can come from Santa however you choose to handle it.

 

Not lie-catching video cameras though. :D

Edited June 26, 2012 by WishboneDawn