Classical Conversations Challenge questions!!! Please HELP ME!

[livingmydream]

Okay, so we are very Charlotte Masony here. I despise textbooks and rigorous academics. My kids learn alot but we are very natural about how we do it. Now, that being said, my son is adamant that he wants to become a doctor.

He is 13. He also struggles with spelling, writing and Math. I can't even begin to imagine what I need to do to prepare him for college. Then I heard about the Challenge program. I am thinking that it would be the best thing to help prepare him for a very rigorous college education, but it freaks me out and kindave makes me sick to my stomach, because it is so against the grain of what our family does. My husband thinks it may help him to focus better and do better in school, which I agree with to a point, but I don't want school to be a chore and something he hates. I want my kids to love to learn and not despise it...

 

So...

for those in the highschool challenges,how long does it take your kids to do all their school work each day? Does it take longer for assignments or are those included in the school day? I want there to be room for free exploration and learning for him. I don't want him to be doing academic stuff constantly...I will continue on with Charlotte Mason education for all my girls, but he is the only boy and the oldest and I feel so responsible to make sure he has a strong education to be able to support a family. (he wants a large family :)and especially if he wants to go into medicine.

 

How flexible is the program? Is there room for me to be able to throw in other CM methods and teaching through out the week? Can we do extra things each week or is all the work for the challenge program going to be a big enough load on it's own?

 

Another question with the Math... we do Teaching textbooks, but he has even been struggling with that this year. Saxon seems like major overkill, but that could just be my own opinion...I also think Apologia is dry and super textbook, but I think the labs would be great for him, though I prefer living books and kitchen table and backyard experiments. Maybe I just need to change my whole attitude and embrace the fact that if he is going to college we need to get over it and get used to the textbook aspect...

Thanks for letting me ramble... any insight is so greatly appreciated!!! I am kindave a nervous wreck right now... if we decide to go this route for highschool then this year 8th grade, I really need to work with him at home to prepare him for the challenge program.

[TammyS]

I'm getting ready to enroll my 13 yo son in Challenge 1, if they manage to get some other boys enrolled in the program (right now it's only girls, and he would hate that). I come at it from a slightly different perspective of loving rigorous academics (though only liking textbooks as far as they serve that, not as ends to themselves, and I also love living books), but HATING busywork. I want our work to be academically rigorous, but always with a point, never just for producing reams of paper. Therefore, when I started exploring Challenge my concern was that it *support* our academics, because we really didn't need more help in the academics themselves. I hope that makes sense.

 

What I learned when I went exploring that makes me hopeful that we will be able to start Challenge in September are these things:

 

-Challenge is not a school. The learning is done at home. Challenge is a place where the kids get together to dialectically enhance what they have been learning together. So, they aren't doing a math lesson at their Challenge session. They are talking about the math lessons they have been doing that week, and sharing what has worked, what hasn't worked, etc. and are able to get help from the tutor should they need it. They get an opportunity to learn math more deeply by seeing how other kids in the rooms approached the same problems.

 

-You do not have to use the CC curriculums. You do need to make sure that your child is on *roughly* the same level in whatever curriculum you use, so that they can participate in the discussion, but it doesn't have to be the same curriculum. So while they recommend Saxon, if you like TT, you can stay with that. Just make sure you are in approx the same level. My son will be going into Challenge 1, where they do Alg 1. But he's finished Alg 1, so he'll be ahead, doing Alg 2. That's ok. He's also already signed up and paid for his online Latin 2 course (second half of Wheelock). The Challenge 1 course is based on starting Henle 1. That's ok, though. His previous Latin will get reinforced and he'll have the opportunity to dialog about what he's seeing. I really dislike IEW, philisophically, so we are going to use CW just like we have been doing. Which is fine. They aren't there to take a writing class, but to share their writings and get different perspectives on it. I was also told by the director that you don't have to even read the same books that they read for their lit selections. I wouldn't go changing all of them, but if one or two look problematic for you, then changing should be fine (I need to read it, but I doubt that I want my son to read "Star Ship Troopers" and will probably sub something for it).

 

-Challenge is a lot about community. The group is limited to 12 so that they can become close over time and really grow intellectually. It is very helpful to kids to see other kids working as hard as they are.

 

I will say that if your son really wants to become a doctor, he is going to have to get used to textbooks. Textbooks aren't bad. Stupid textbooks used stupidly are bad. They are a tool like anything else. Hammers aren't bad just because some people use them to bash other's brains out.

 

Some things that others who have been in Challenge in different places say makes a difference to whether your Challenge experience is good or bad:

 

1. The director is really key. If the director is good, the experience will be good. If the director is flaky or disorganized the kids won't get nearly as much out of it as they could. If you don't really like the director and don't get satisfying answers to your questions, you might want to pass.

 

2. You can ruin CC for yourself by trying to add to much to it. It is a fair amount of work on it's own, and if you try to add tons to it you will be miserable. It works best when you use CC as the core of your homeschooling and only add things to it as extras and be willing to take those extras out if they are taking too much time.

 

3. One of the biggest things that you can do to help your kid succeed and enjoy CC is to focus your efforts on their organizational skills. In turn, having CC with which to practice organizational skills is tremendously helpful when they go to college.

 

4. Understanding that most of their learning will still be done at home and that CC is more like a study group, not a class. A lot of what they will get out of CC is going to be slightly intangible at first. One of the biggest things they will get out of CC is an increase in their communication skills.

 

I hope that helps with your decision making! :grouphug:

[purplelily]

Another alternative would be to join some type of debate/speech group, that way he would learn the debate skills, research skills, and presentation skills. That the doctor would have to use.

[livingmydream]

Thanks for the detailed response.

Since most everything is done at home and the majority of it is to get the kids together to learn/ discuss, use their brains etc... is that really worth the $$$$ spent? Along with having to purchase all the curriculum at home too?

 

Maybe a separate club or science lab class would be best???

[G5052]

We're long-term CC people and this will be my fourth year with a kid in Challenge. TammyS outlined it very well.

 

From my experience, the key to satisfaction with Challenge includes buy-in with the majority of approaches/curriculum choices and a director than can handle the components of the program and classroom management. If you don't have both of those elements, it will be a long, frustrating year. Of course other things can happen, but those are the biggies.

 

And yes, mixing and matching local activities and online classes may be a better choice for some families. Challenge works best as a whole. Next year I'll have one in Challenge and one doing online classes through two different providers for subjects that I'm not strong in.

[TammyS]

Thanks for the detailed response.

Since most everything is done at home and the majority of it is to get the kids together to learn/ discuss, use their brains etc... is that really worth the $$$$ spent? Along with having to purchase all the curriculum at home too?

 

Maybe a separate club or science lab class would be best???

 

I think whether it is worth the money or not depends on your home and local situation. One of the things that I am placing a high value on for my son is the dialectical part. I believe good communication skills on difficult, high-level topics (ie., not just chit-chat) to be exceedingly important. If I had 8 kids who talked to each other about their school work all the time, or a local situation with enough high schoolers of approximately the same academic persuasion, I might not value CC as highly, because the fact is that I am already doing most of what they have academically in my day-to-day homeschool. But what I don't have is a lot of high schoolers in my area who I can trust to be committed to keeping up with a year of stuff, or even a semester (sidebar: I have had a number of unfortunate experiences with co-ops that basically boil down to the parents were not committed to seeing things through, making the kids get their work done, etc. I will not involve myself in another co-op again unless it includes a substantial financial buy-in from the parents to weed out the uncommitted. In this way, I believe the cost of CC to be a benefit, at least for my local situation.) And my two children are 13.5 and 21 months.

 

Whether or not CC is worth it to you boils down, I think, to this series of questions:

 

1.WHAT are you looking to get out of it?

 

2.What are your options for achieving those goals? This is REAL options, that include what you can afford time/money wise, as well as whether or not you can count on others to be committed, if a co-op is in your plans.

 

3.Given your goals and options, what is the best fit for your family?

 

Honestly, while I am hoping that CC works out locally, I would not do it if there were a group of families in my area that I felt could provide the group, dialectical experience with commitment.

 

I hope that helps. I would love to hear more from you as you think out your options. It might give me ideas. :)

[G5052]

I will not involve myself in another co-op again unless it includes a substantial financial buy-in from the parents to weed out the uncommitted. In this way, I believe the cost of CC to be a benefit, at least for my local situation.

 

Even with the financial committment, you can get into a situation where the majority of students are not completing their work because of not making the assignments a priority at home, objections to certain topics/books, difficulty with the subject, etc. etc. Discussion and debate doesn't work very well then.

 

I had hoped to continue with CC to the end, but it just hasn't worked out for us in terms of getting the dialetical content consistently. We also hit the point where the level of some of the seminars wasn't working.

Edited June 23, 2012 by GVA

[TammyS]

I had hoped to continue with CC to the end, but it just hasn't worked out for us in terms of getting the dialetical content consistently. We also hit the point where the level of some of the seminars wasn't working.

 

Do you mean the other kids weren't keeping up? Or the tutor? Or, I guess I'm not sure what you mean.

[G5052]

Do you mean the other kids weren't keeping up? Or the tutor? Or, I guess I'm not sure what you mean.

 

If the majority of the class isn't doing the work, classtime is difficult, to say the least. It isn't as meaningful for the few that do it, and there can be classroom problems while the rest of the class stands by for an hour while the few participate with the tutor. Imagine being one of the few who read the book and having to discuss it with the tutor while the other ten listen.

 

And if the tutor is not functioning at the dialectic level themselves, the time in class is not going to be at that level most of the time. In our experience, Latin and logic were especially tough that way. Questions brought to class weren't answered, and we were pretty much on our own at home to make it what we wanted.

 

Certainly YMMV.

[love2read]

Do you mean the other kids weren't keeping up? Or the tutor?

Not op, but we found both of those were true. The tutor didn't know Latin, was teaching a very watered down version of it and that incorrectly. She didn't prepare well and the kids weren't doing all of the work. Discussions always fell flat. They go through the books quickly and in my experience it's more of a skimming.

 

It's really important to observe the group and the tutor that your dc will get. It's a lot of money and you won't be getting it back if you drop out, which is what we did.

[TammyS]

Not op, but we found both of those were true. The tutor didn't know Latin, was teaching a very watered down version of it and that incorrectly. She didn't prepare well and the kids weren't doing all of the work. Discussions always fell flat. They go through the books quickly and in my experience it's more of a skimming.

 

It's really important to observe the group and the tutor that your dc will get. It's a lot of money and you won't be getting it back if you drop out, which is what we did.

 

Did you talk to the tutor's superior about the tutor's inability? Did it do any good?

 

This *is* one of my concerns.

[Kim in SouthGa]

some thoughts from a first time tutor :D

We have always participated in outside classes of various varieties, from mom-taught coop classes to (supposedly) rigorous professionally taught classes. We have decided that CC is a better fit for us for several reasons. First, I felt like I lost all authority over the subject when my son had a "real" teacher. Second, I found that most of the professionals, usually retired public school teachers, had a very difficult time adjusting to the homeschool way of doing things (meeting only once or twice a week, focus on real learning instead of teaching to the test, flexibility, etc). I have also found that the classes were not nearly as rigorous as what I expected, with the exception of a lit class taught by a college prof. This is just my experience in the area we live. I'm sure there are many coop and other classes that are outstanding, just not in my town. Third, I missed the freedom to go off on bunny trails, take time off when we needed for travel, sickness, etc, skip what I thought was silly, etc. With CC, I am still the teacher. My dd joined Challenge B in January of last year. Her tutor always reinforced this, and always told me that if we had sickness, etc and couldn't get an assignment done, just let her know. Ideally, CC wants the parent reading along with the student and discussing things at home. At minimum, the parent is expected to proof-read and edit papers and administer math and science tests, as well as give the actual grade for each class. The more involved the parents are, the better. CC is not a one day a week drop off school, and it is not about checking a box. The focus is on learning the tools of learning.

I know it seems expensive; however, I paid over $400 for just one class this year (chemistry and lab). It was taught by a professional and the papers were all graded and he was given a final grade. That said, I don't feel like he learned all that much, and we are having to work through some things this summer, take more quizzes and tests, and come up with our own grade. So even though a lot of people worry about how the tutor will be with CC, you have the same issue with other teachers.

Also remember that people value what they pay for (usually). Parents will be more likely (not certain to) make sure their kids are keeping up when they are paying for it as opposed to a free or very low cost coop class. At least that has been our experience. I know there are exceptions, though.

I have really missed being involved in what my oldest 2 are doing-with 4 kids ages 5-16, it has been too easy for me to pass it off to someone else whenever possible. That's the main reason I agreed to tutor-to force myself to read everything they are reading and be more involved. And get an education myself!! I will have my 16 year old and my 13 year old both in Challenge I.

I would suggest going to the CC website and listening to all the mp3 recordings about Challenge. Leigh gives a great breakdown of what is expected in each seminar.

[amtmcm]

So...

for those in the highschool challenges,how long does it take your kids to do all their school work each day? Does it take longer for assignments or are those included in the school day? I want there to be room for free exploration and learning for him. I don't want him to be doing academic stuff constantly...

 

 

This depends on the child. My DD15 can whip out a 2 page essay in 20 minutes. In Challenge B and up there are typically 2 papers written every week. When DD15 was in Challenge B, that course was a very small part of her weekly work. But we saw other students who struggled to keep up.

 

How flexible is the program? Is there room for me to be able to throw in other CM methods and teaching through out the week? Can we do extra things each week or is all the work for the challenge program going to be a big enough load on it's own?

 

Same as above - it depends on if the student is able to keep up with the CC work. As a parent, it would be ideal if you stay involved with your son's weekly CC assignments and expand on them at home through CM methods - read a living book about an event or science topic their studying and talk about it together. Have him draw and journal what he's learning about. Verify this with the tutor, but you might occasionally substitute one of your own assignments. For example, he could do something more creative (a series of drawings, a poem, a script) instead of writing an essay. As long as it is related to the same topic/book everyone else is studying he will be able to contribute in class and everyone (including your son) will benefit.

 

Another question with the Math... we do Teaching textbooks, but he has even been struggling with that this year.

 

 

If he's struggling with TT, you may need to backup with something like Key to... or Khan Academy. He's may be missing something foundational like fractions or something else. Does he have his times tables down quickly? When DD15 struggled with homework assignments it was because they took her a long time because she couldn't quickly multiply in her head.

 

As for Saxon, I'm not a fan. DD15 used Saxon Alg 1/2 (when she was 12) and I helped a student with Saxon Adv Math last year. It is way too "jumpy" as I see many describe it on Amazon. Math usually happens first hour in Challenge classes, so you can just sleep 45 minutes longer and take him to class when math is over. :) That's what we're doing this year. Or he can go to class and listen in on the lesson - it will reinforce his math at home.

 

Maybe I just need to change my whole attitude and embrace the fact that if he is going to college we need to get over it and get used to the textbook aspect...

 

 

It would be better for him to be accustomed to using textbooks before he gets to college.

 

 

if we decide to go this route for highschool then this year 8th grade, I really need to work with him at home to prepare him for the challenge program.

 

I read this and thought it's really a shame you can't put him in Challenge A this year, for two reasons.

 

1) Challenge A is very Charlotte Mason-y. The kids spend a lot of time drawing the world for geography and doing nature studies for science. Challenge A also covers Anatomy and they memorize all of the bones in the body and various body systems. This would be VERY beneficial for a future doctor.

 

The Latin will be introduced very slowly in Henle and lay a good foundation. The IEW writing is only fall semester and then spring semester they focus on reading good books and learning how to analyze them and then write their own essays.

 

2) Challenge A and Challenge B is where writing and research is really, really taught. These two Challenge levels prepare students for the upper Challenge levels. IMO, both Challenge A & B cover writing & research, so your son could probably do Ch A and if he does well, then skip to Ch 1 for 9th grade.

[profmom]

We have decided that CC is a better fit for us for several reasons. First, I felt like I lost all authority over the subject when my son had a "real" teacher.

 

With CC, I am still the teacher. My dd joined Challenge B in January of last year. Her tutor always reinforced this, and always told me that if we had sickness, etc and couldn't get an assignment done, just let her know. Ideally, CC wants the parent reading along with the student and discussing things at home.

 

Not to knock Kim at all -- it sounds like she is doing it right! However, while I haven't participated in Challenge, I have watched our local group. What I saw is that, while all the parents are happy that they are "still the teacher," many didn't seem to realize that they needed to stay up with the kids, work with them during the week, teach, and provide feedback to the child, including (especially) detailed feedback on the dc's writing and revisions.

 

The flexibility is listed as a plus, but sometimes this means that things fall through the cracks, especially if the parent isn't keeping up with their part of the teaching. It makes it easy for assignments to be skipped when things are a little busier around the house, etc. Having the flexibility means that there is less accountability.

 

 

The more involved the parents are, the better. CC is not a one day a week drop off school, and it is not about checking a box. The focus is on learning the tools of learning.

 

If you know and understand this going in and the other families know this going in (and you have a very good director), it could be a great year. :)

 

 

Here, our oldest started the Classical Track at The Potter's School before CC came to our area. Yes, we have lost some flexibility -- assignments have fixed deadlines and points are deducted for late submissions (which I consider to be valuable training for college and life). Yes, I am no longer the primary teacher for the online classes, but the accountability is really there. We've been very pleased with the TPS classes, particularly the Classical Track because the class discussions, thinking, biblical worldview, literature, strong writing program, etc. are all there!

 

I'm not really trying to talk you out of the Challenge program, just adding to the discussion and pointing out the importance of parental involvement and high standards in the entire group. (I've seen how uninterested and uninvolved students within the group can drag the class down.) When we researched and considered Challenge B or TPS for our 2nd dc, we ended up deciding TPS's online classes were a better fit for us. We end up accomplishing more and at a higher level.

Edited June 24, 2012 by profmom

[G5052]

This type of thing can happen in any paid class including dual enrollment classes. My local friend who was part of a selective co-op that hired superstars as their literature teachers pulled out of it for her younger ones because so few kids actually came prepared for class. At the local community college, there are plenty of horror stories about homeschooled kids who failed to turn in assignments and flunked out. And I've heard similar stories from friends who have gotten involved in a local cottage school. So this isn't just a CC issue by any means. IMHO it is more of a general homeschooling issue. We're so flexible that we sometimes don't take it seriously.

 

What makes it hard though is that if you pay for multiple subjects and commit to a whole year for most of your child's schooling, and if it doesn't meet your expectations, that's quite disappointing. For high school, that has serious ramifications because you're running out of time. Repeating a course isn't always feasible.

 

The lesson to be learned IMHO is that you don't pay for an outside program on the basis of subjects and books alone. :001_smile:

[profmom]

This type of thing can happen in any paid class including dual enrollment classes. My local friend who was part of a selective co-op that hired superstars as their literature teachers pulled out of it for her younger ones because so few kids actually came prepared for class. At the local community college, there are plenty of horror stories about homeschooled kids who failed to turn in assignments and flunked out. And I've heard similar stories from friends who have gotten involved in a local cottage school. So this isn't just a CC issue by any means. IMHO it is more of a general homeschooling issue. We're so flexible that we sometimes don't take it seriously.

 

What makes it hard though is that if you pay for multiple subjects and commit to a whole year for most of your child's schooling, and if it doesn't meet your expectations, that's quite disappointing. For high school, that has serious ramifications because you're running out of time. Repeating a course isn't always feasible.

 

The lesson to be learned IMHO is that you don't pay for an outside program on the basis of subjects and books alone. :001_smile:

 

Right.:iagree:

[Kim in SouthGa]

For more help with accountability, CC offers dual enrollment classes through Bryan college once you get to Challenges III and IV. They have US History I and II, Math, & Bible, with more to be offered each year. (I also heard a rumor that they are working with Patrick Henry, but I have no idea if it is true.) I believe the way it works is that they have some additional assignments to turn in to the college professor, and you pay the extra tuition ($300). My oldest, who is going to be in 11th grade this year, will do Challenge I for 11th then skip to Challenge III next year so he can do the DE US History classes (assuming they will transfer to whatever college he decides on).

 

As for kids/teacher coming to class unprepared, that is just going to happen anywhere. We have tried many different options, from coop to organized professional to online, and have really only had two classes in all that time where I felt like we got our money's worth. One of the reasons we chose CC is so that I have the option to add or take away from it to make it what I want my kids to learn. I have drooled over TPS many times:D but my kids do not want to do more than one or two classes online. (And the price.) My dd really enjoyed being with the same group of kids for the whole day and being able to talk about everything they were learning as a group. Mock Trial last year in B was so much fun, and my dd just grew leaps and bounds. She is especially looking forward to Debate and Spring Protocol. She has been saying all week that she can't wait for school to start back!! Since I am the tutor/director, I'm also going to try to get the kids involved in a volunteer project.

 

I would try to go to a Practicum, and talk to the tutor and parents of other families involved. Find out how they view CC and what their expectations are. That should give you an idea of what to expect. I had no idea going into Challenge B last year that I was supposed to be keeping up with my dd. It was a last minute decision to put her in after some other things were canceled/changed, and I really didn't want to do it but my dh said YES, so there we were. So thankful now.

[TammyS]

Since I am the tutor/director, I'm also going to try to get the kids involved in a volunteer project.

 

I would try to go to a Practicum, and talk to the tutor and parents of other families involved. Find out how they view CC and what their expectations are. That should give you an idea of what to expect.

 

Hi Kim,

 

Our Challenge group is just trying to get started this fall (still waiting to find out if they will get enough kids), so I can't really observe or talk to other parents, because I don't know who they will be.

 

I'm wondering, how would you mitigate a situation in which a majority of the students weren't keeping up, or in which the Challenge director wasn't keeping up?

 

I know that probably some of the students won't keep up, but if most of them don't or the director doesn't, then I am out not only several hundred dollars, but a lot of wasted time as well.

 

Does CC have a method for dealing with persistently slothful students? Worse, how would CC handle a tutor not keeping up?

 

Thanks for any light you can shed!