Jump to content

Menu

Do you ever feel you're wasting your time posting?


Recommended Posts

Okay, maybe I'm too sensitive...but I can't help but open up this conversation. I've been posting here for a few years now, and although I don't post nearly as often as others, I think I'm known by at least a few as a "regular" by now.

 

I mostly just read the boards and have learned more here than from any homeschool group I could have ever joined irl. I love the Hive, but there's an aspect that has bothered me for a long time now. The problem is that when I do take the time to post in reply to someone's thread I quite often feel completely ignored in the conversation. Can anyone relate to what I'm saying here, or is it just me?

 

Having this happen is like being at a social gathering trying to join in conversations, but no one will talk to you or even respond to your comments. It's like standing in the middle of a party, drink in hand, yet no one acknowledges that you're even there. I tell you, there are times that I feel all alone in a sea of people. Once in awhile I get positive feedback on suggestions I make, curriculum I've had success with, etc. But it's the joining in on conversations that have already started that I get bugged the most about. (NOTE: Quite often when I start a thread I do get wonderful support and replies, so I'm not feeling COMPLETELY ignored. :D)

 

Because of this I have a couple of suggestions to consider: If someone has chimed in with something nice to say or input to add to the conversation, maybe once in awhile try to acknowledge that they're there. If someone takes time to share about a curriculum or offer suggestions of some sort, at least let them know that their efforts in sharing are appreciated.

 

This may come across as self-centered, I realize, but I really don't mean it to be so. I'm just saying how I feel at times, and I wonder if there are others that often feel ignored as well.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 252
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Lucinda, this topic comes up quite often by posters with all sorts of post counts. I guess you can say that I post a lot (:D) but I've heard the crickets chirp on many many occasions, not just when I'm posting a reply to something but sometimes when I've posted a new thread and get ZERO replies. People usually reference posts that are really different from any others, are the first to say something before everyone else chimes in, are worded in a way that is particularly memorable or is controversial. Some OPs (MariannNOVA comes to mind) do try to go back and respond to every single individual. I'm afraid that while I read and value all input, I don't always do that - often because contrary to what some believe, my time on here is limited.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm afraid that while I read and value all input, I don't always do that - often because contrary to what some believe, my time on here is limited.;)

 

Oh Jean, thank you for your comments. I realize completely that none of us can acknowledge every post. I just think that at least once in awhile people could acknowledge others' posts and give some validation or some sort of encouragement, appreciation, etc.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume it was read and thought about, but not commented on (at least by those who don't have me on ignore.) That may be my own fantasy, but I'm sticking with it.

 

I often hesitate to post because sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my breath on the K-8 board. But I do anyone, because I don't want to short someone who really is open to suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On every forum I have been on this comes up. It seems like it is a nature of the beast sort of thing. For me I post stuff and just like a minute to say my piece and don't really worry if crickets chirp..however I have responded and it stopped a conversation and no one posted..that made me feel a little bad but life goes on. I think for the most part the Hive is listening but everything here moves so fast that it is hard to acknowledge. I know I read tons and respond only to a few but I value all the stuff I take away. :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I do feel that way on occasion, but I have been on these boards for so many years (and the board before it) that it seems to happen to everyone at one time or another.

 

I did love your analogy about the drink in hand at the party:lol: And I also could relate to Jean's post about crickets chirping, but I also get the crickets chirping in the field feeling when I talk to my kids sometimes too:tongue_smilie:

 

You are a valued (and recognized) member here. :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gently, to answer your original question, yes it's a waste of time to post here. Sometimes, all I really feel like doing is wasting time, so it's perfect. However, don't look to this board for personal affirmation or to feel noticed and valued. You will not find that here. If you never posted again, the vast majority of the people on here wouldn't notice (they wouldn't notice me either). Don't feel bad about that! Just realize the truth of it. Do NOT invest emotionally into being affirmed here. This is not the place to find your value. If you did get your affirmation here, I would call that unhealthy.

 

I have had seasons when I invested too much (time, emotions, ect) into an Internet board, just to realize that it was pointless. It helps to take breaks. Maybe some time away from the board is in order?

 

((hugs))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:grouphug: I know exactly what you mean, and I hope I've never 'ignored' you. You are a well known 'face' to me. It used to upset me a lot at one time, but I've simply adjusted my expectations. While I feel quite a connection to a number of people here, I realise that this isn't real life, and I don't really 'know' anyone. At times I've wanted to walk away from these boards and never come back, but then I realise that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. This forum is a fabulous resource for homeschoolers.

 

Best wishes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally relate, OP. I have started to wonder if it is due to my username being Arabic sounding. I almost wanted to try a different username to see if I got more input. Im not calling anyone racist or prejudiced, but sometimes these things are in our subconscious.

 

I can't believe I just shared those thoughts. :$

But it is a very fast paced board, so I don't let the lack of acknowledgements bother me most of the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm... Threads strike me differently. Some are, as you say, conversational. Others are informational. I think of this forum as a bulletin board. I stick stuff on and contribute, often without the expectation of a reply.

 

When I am the one seeking information, I always sit back and read & ponder the replies that come in. I may ask for clarification or additional information. I try to remember to say thanks, though it's typically a blanket, "Thanks, everyone!" I agree with Jean, MariannNOVA is really the best at acknowledging replies.

 

There are times when I toss a comment into a banterish thread, which may appear to go unaddressed. That happens in real life, too.

 

Sorry that you are feeling left out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lucinda, I do know what you mean. I find the boards to be very impersonal in this way. I am one who tries to respond to everyone who posts on a thread I start (that may be why I post relatively few new threads, as it can get very time-consuming to thread-sit :tongue_smilie:). I don't necessarily get upset if other posters don't respond to one of my posts but I do get cranky sometimes if the OP doesn't respond, at least with a general thanks to everyone responded. I know threads can get out of hand and sometimes a particular post was the answer for the OP, the one that resonates and ends the discussion for that person. But, still...people took the time and effort to respond and good manners dictate that a thanks is appropriate. If you have 100 responses or if a thread goes hot, no one expects an individual thanks, of course, but a general thanks shows better i-manners than thread abandonment. :lol:

 

That said, I will say that sometimes a new post makes it onto an old thread and I never get an e-mail. If I don't happen to be online to see it, it will go unanswered. I don't know if that's a quirk of the e-mail system here at WTM or what but I do know that quite a few times I have clicked on my stats and seen answers floating there as unread that I never saw...sometimes posted days later, sometimes weeks, months...

 

We've all been there. I just think it's part of the impersonal world of internet message boards. In real life, how many people really would just hear you say something and walk away without a word? Not many in my world anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gently, to answer your original question, yes it's a waste of time to post here. Sometimes, all I really feel like doing is wasting time, so it's perfect. However, don't look to this board for personal affirmation or to feel noticed and valued. You will not find that here. If you never posted again, the vast majority of the people on here wouldn't notice (they wouldn't notice me either). Don't feel bad about that! Just realize the truth of it. Do NOT invest emotionally into being affirmed here. This is not the place to find your value. If you did get your affirmation here, I would call that unhealthy.

 

I have had seasons when I invested too much (time, emotions, ect) into an Internet board, just to realize that it was pointless. It helps to take breaks. Maybe some time away from the board is in order?

 

((hugs))

 

:iagree:

 

To me, this is more satisfying than watching TV, but no substitute for the emotional connection you can find with people who are present in your life. That said, I understand that real and lasting relationships can be made online, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gently, to answer your original question, yes it's a waste of time to post here. Sometimes, all I really feel like doing is wasting time, so it's perfect. However, don't look to this board for personal affirmation or to feel noticed and valued. You will not find that here. If you never posted again, the vast majority of the people on here wouldn't notice (they wouldn't notice me either). Don't feel bad about that! Just realize the truth of it. Do NOT invest emotionally into being affirmed here. This is not the place to find your value. If you did get your affirmation here, I would call that unhealthy.

 

I have had seasons when I invested too much (time, emotions, ect) into an Internet board, just to realize that it was pointless. It helps to take breaks. Maybe some time away from the board is in order?

 

((hugs))

 

Yes, yes, yes! I had a board break for around a year and no one missed me. OK, a little while after I left someone posted asking about a possible substitution in a recipe I posted but that was it. :lol:

 

These boards are helpful. I get a lot of good information and answers for very specific questions here. But feel appreciated and validated? That comes from family and IRL friends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can stop a thread completely. It can be going along nicely and then I post something and then WHAM! It's dead. It's a gift...

 

HAHA! I totally thought I was the only one :D

 

When that happens--particularly on a high-traffic contentious thread, I like to think that I got in the final word, and there really wasn't much to be said or argue with after that ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gently, to answer your original question, yes it's a waste of time to post here. Sometimes, all I really feel like doing is wasting time, so it's perfect. However, don't look to this board for personal affirmation or to feel noticed and valued. You will not find that here. If you never posted again, the vast majority of the people on here wouldn't notice (they wouldn't notice me either). Don't feel bad about that! Just realize the truth of it. Do NOT invest emotionally into being affirmed here. This is not the place to find your value. If you did get your affirmation here, I would call that unhealthy.

 

I have had seasons when I invested too much (time, emotions, ect) into an Internet board, just to realize that it was pointless. It helps to take breaks. Maybe some time away from the board is in order?

 

((hugs))

 

 

Oh my, yes!!!

 

That really helps me. There are many times when I have felt this way. I have had to shake off that loser feeling!

My husband and I have decided that there are "the cool guys" for EVERYTHING. Golf, chess, sewing, racing cars, techie gurus, cooks, message boards, you name it; this is life. I am not a cool guy here. It's ok. I sometimes feel like I know you people. I am not sure that is healthy. Sometimes I also feel like being on this board is a waste of time in general. I have a list of 10 reasons why it is a waste of my time including: the time I realize I spend on here each day, curriculum hopping it can lead to, comparing my kids to others, comparing myself to others and really the list goes on. I have come to the conclusion that I am actually addicted to this darn website. Sigh.......

Edited by Momma H
Well, my I phone won't scroll down to finish typing! Aagg, now I am really a loser!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, yes, yes! I had a board break for around a year and no one missed me. OK, a little while after I left someone posted asking about a possible substitution in a recipe I posted but that was it. :lol:

 

These boards are helpful. I get a lot of good information and answers for very specific questions here. But feel appreciated and validated? That comes from family and IRL friends.

 

Actually, I missed you. I remember you'd posted a long piece about teaching science that I copied and printed out and found very inspirational, then the next thing I knew, you'd gone - you were a 'Guest'. I was very pleased to see you again when you returned :001_smile:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree:

 

To me, this is more satisfying than watching TV, but no substitute for the emotional connection you can find with people who are present in your life. That said, I understand that real and lasting relationships can be made online, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I'm very glad to be exceptional then :D Or, rather, to be blessed by having met exceptional women on here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, I feel the same way sometimes. Ok many times. I do know that it's probably not personal. No one is really trying to snub me or ignore me, but it's hard to make that feeling go away. Like others have said, its hard to respond to evereyone in a thread. I certainly haven't ackowledged everyone individually the times i have created threads so I shouldn't expect others to. I really wish there was some kind of "like" feature for posts so people could know they've been heard without others having to type out responses to each post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am so sorry if I have ever not responded to a reply for one of my posts. I got SO much great advise/responses to my last post about my DD oral surgery, that I couldn't physically reply to everone.

 

But I know what you mean, if you take the time to reply to someones questions, then it would be nice to get an acknowledgment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I understand that real and lasting relationships can be made online, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

 

It is also a matter of how much an individual poster puts out there. There are posters who seem to write about all the intimate details of their lives on these boards (warts and all, lots of private stuff) and there are posters who are all business (curriculum choices and very little personal info). I do not expect to make close, intimate friends on the boards because I'm not putting myself out there that way. It's hard to form relationships based on the superficial. I am sometimes shocked at what people write about here but people have different filters and levels of comfort with message boards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm very glad to be exceptional then :D Or, rather, to be blessed by having met exceptional women on here.

 

You are exceptional --:grouphug: -- I have been blessed by our communication.:grouphug:

 

Gently, to answer your original question, yes it's a waste of time to post here. Sometimes, all I really feel like doing is wasting time, so it's perfect. However, don't look to this board for personal affirmation or to feel noticed and valued. You will not find that here. If you never posted again, the vast majority of the people on here wouldn't notice (they wouldn't notice me either). Don't feel bad about that! Just realize the truth of it. Do NOT invest emotionally into being affirmed here. This is not the place to find your value. If you did get your affirmation here, I would call that unhealthy.

 

I have had seasons when I invested too much (time, emotions, ect) into an Internet board, just to realize that it was pointless. It helps to take breaks. Maybe some time away from the board is in order?

 

((hugs))

 

 

I have to agree with shannon.

 

That being said, there have been times, many times, when I have responded to a thread and someone else will say essentially what I said but only her response will get rave reviews and my essentially the same answer will be ignored --that's what you mean, isn't it?

 

I have learned to 'let it go.' And, I have to go back to what shannon said - the healthy thing to do is to learn to let it go. This is for all intent and purpose, a real time bb that could be hanging on the wall in Starbucks. There are times when 99% of my communication is with the people here, and then there are weeks when I fall off the face of the earth and no one notices. Put it all in perspective (and this took me awhile to do), and like it for the great info and support one can find here.

 

And, thank you to everyone who said that I am a 'good responder' -- I truly make an effort to acknowledge individuals who take the time to respond to me -- but, I also sit here till heaven only knows what time on an almost daily basis trying to chill before I go to sleep.

 

:grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lucinda, this topic comes up quite often by posters with all sorts of post counts. I guess you can say that I post a lot (:D) but I've heard the crickets chirp on many many occasions, not just when I'm posting a reply to something but sometimes when I've posted a new thread and get ZERO replies. People usually reference posts that are really different from any others, are the first to say something before everyone else chimes in, are worded in a way that is particularly memorable or is controversial. Some OPs (MariannNOVA comes to mind) do try to go back and respond to every single individual. I'm afraid that while I read and value all input, I don't always do that - often because contrary to what some believe, my time on here is limited.;)

 

I think that alot of what the OP writes about is really just the 'nature of an online bb'

 

 

In red, :iagree:

 

And :iagree:, that MariannNOVA is something else.:lol::lol::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:grouphug: OP, I recognize you (and I've always loved your avatar)! Your analogy of the drink in hand at the party rings so true for me! But I do agree with what everyone is saying - getting your self-worth from these boards isn't such a hot idea.

 

I also feel as though I "know" so many of you and really do enjoy coming on here to see what is happening with everyone.

 

I know that very often I'll be reading a thread and agreeing with someone or laughing at something funny that they've posted but I won't actually respond to it because then I'd be posting all day saying things like "Oh, I know what you mean!" or "That is hilarious!" or some other fluff likethat that is just cluttering up the thread. I do wish we had agree buttons (like on Ravelry) - it would make it easier to let someone know that their post has been read and appreciated.

 

Now I'm going to be checking this thread all day to see if I killed it. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe you could try adding a little "P.S." to every comment with something like your opinion on wearing shoes in the house, or teA, or BooKs, or kilts, and you might receive more of a response! :D

 

I totally understand what you mean! There are many times I've felt invisible. I agree with AuntieM - I started thinking of the forum more as a bulletin board.

 

When I've started a thread, I've definitely tried replying to everyone who responded, but I also didn't want to appear as though I was just trying to bump up my own thread. :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really wish there was some kind of "like" feature for posts so people could know they've been heard without others having to type out responses to each post.

 

:iagree: Me, too!

 

P.S. I don't wear shoes in the house, because I detest shoes. I like teA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed it too. This is a chilly board for certain.

 

What puzzles me is that I have so much in common with many women here, but nobody seems interested in being friendly with me even in the message board sense.

 

Some of the babycenter and citydata boards are a little warmer, you might want to check them out. Although the babycenter crowd can be wanting in brain cells... I was just reading a thread where a woman was warned not to go out in the texas heat-- or her breastmilk would spoil :001_huh:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed it too. This is a chilly board for certain.

 

What puzzles me is that I have so much in common with many women here, but nobody seems interested in being friendly with me even in the message board sense.

 

Some of the babycenter and citydata boards are a little warmer, you might want to check them out. Although the babycenter crowd can be wanting in brain cells... I was just reading a thread where a woman was warned not to go out in the texas heat-- or her breastmilk would spoil :001_huh:.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is also a matter of how much an individual poster puts out there. There are posters who seem to write about all the intimate details of their lives on these boards (warts and all, lots of private stuff) and there are posters who are all business (curriculum choices and very little personal info). I do not expect to make close, intimate friends on the boards because I'm not putting myself out there that way. It's hard to form relationships based on the superficial. I am sometimes shocked at what people write about here but people have different filters and levels of comfort with message boards.

 

Very true!

 

Because I use my real name/face/etc, I tend not to put too much personal information out for all the world to see. Not sure if that makes a difference to anyone else who posts, but to me I feel more "exposed" this way already. Which is probably why I also stay away from controversial threads even if I have a strong opinion. Hee hee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of the babycenter and citydata boards are a little warmer, you might want to check them out. Although the babycenter crowd can be wanting in brain cells... I was just reading a thread where a woman was warned not to go out in the texas heat-- or her breastmilk would spoil :001_huh:.

 

LLOL

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

(That means I am literally laughing out loud. That is hilarious!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, I feel the same way sometimes. Ok many times. I do know that it's probably not personal. No one is really trying to snub me or ignore me, but it's hard to make that feeling go away. Like others have said, its hard to respond to evereyone in a thread. I certainly haven't ackowledged everyone individually the times i have created threads so I shouldn't expect others to. I really wish there was some kind of "like" feature for posts so people could know they've been heard without others having to type out responses to each post.

 

Oh yes, the LIKE button would be sooooo nice! I wish we could get that feature here.

 

Along with this I just wanted to say that I feel better already just for having made my statement. Reading all the comments here has been like a breath of fresh air. So THANK YOU EVERYONE!! Sorry for the blanket statement, but I sincerely mean it to everyone that's adding to the conversation. Makes me just want to give you all a big virtual ((hug)).

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was just reading a thread where a woman was warned not to go out in the texas heat-- or her breastmilk would spoil :001_huh:.

 

LOL! Does that lady (giving the advice) walk around with icepacks in her bookshelf? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, I wanna be exceptional too!!!:tongue_smilie:

 

You are!:D You made me feel so 'normal' b/c I was stressing about how long to wait till I called back a school where I had left a message a week ago.

 

I called them this a.m. The secretary (a friend told me to ask for her - so I mentioned the friend's name and that kind of opened a door) was very nice, and told me what they wanted me to do so I have done it and now I can wait till next week and see what happens. I HATE the phone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really. I don't think I'm wasting my time posting, even if no one responds or they respond in a rabid way to something I've written.

I look at it this way. If I want to post a reply, then obviously the OP's question resonated with me in some way. Either I have a solution, or the idea of one, or it is a question that I've asked myself before. So, posting a reply is a way for me to organize my own thoughts or get a better grip on what that question really means to me.

 

I met my DH online, so I get the idea of forming relationships online. But I certainly wouldn't expect to form any sort of a friendship on a board like this, or count on a board for validation of my opinions on any subject.

 

I actually respond to a question far more than I post. For every post I reply and delete about five. Again, I wouldn't consider that wasted time, because I often solve something for myself that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've spent a lot of time at BabyCenter and I almost can't stand it anymore (don't even get me started on the birth boards. They make me lose my faith in humanity).

 

I don't know how to say this without sounding snobby. . . but, in general, the collective IQ is much higher than anywhere else I visit, and that's why I like it here so much. If I come here for advice or general knowledge, I'm almost certain to get an answer from wise women who have walked in my shoes or just a good solid 'right' answer, KWIM? For the most part, people can disagree on things without the discussion dissolving into personal attacks and hair-flips and dramatic leavings. (notice I said 'for the most part' :lol:).

 

But yeah, sometimes I feel invisible or like I'm a thread killer. And then sometimes I'll say something almost flippantly or in passing and it will get quoted many times over :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel this way quite often, and I've actually stopped responding to a lot of posts. That said, I do read your posts and notice them, and love your advice.

 

Thank you, JudoMom! I feel so validated! Really. Thank you!!

 

:grouphug: OP, I recognize you (and I've always loved your avatar)! Your analogy of the drink in hand at the party rings so true for me! (I'm a visual person, and that was the best description I could come up with that illustrated my point.) But I do agree with what everyone is saying - getting your self-worth from these boards isn't such a hot idea. (Good point, well taken.)

 

I also feel as though I "know" so many of you and really do enjoy coming on here to see what is happening with everyone. (I agree, even though I know this is far from the connections irl.)

 

I know that very often I'll be reading a thread and agreeing with someone or laughing at something funny that they've posted but I won't actually respond to it because then I'd be posting all day saying things like "Oh, I know what you mean!" or "That is hilarious!" or some other fluff likethat that is just cluttering up the thread. I do wish we had agree buttons (like on Ravelry) - it would make it easier to let someone know that their post has been read and appreciated.

 

Now I'm going to be checking this thread all day to see if I killed it. :)

(Nope, it'll probably be me. I have done it COUNTLESS times.)

 

I've noticed it too. This is a chilly board for certain.

 

What puzzles me is that I have so much in common with many women here, but nobody seems interested in being friendly with me even in the message board sense.

(I know exactly what you mean.)

 

Some of the babycenter and citydata boards are a little warmer, you might want to check them out. Although the babycenter crowd can be wanting in brain cells... I was just reading a thread where a woman was warned not to go out in the texas heat-- or her breastmilk would spoil :001_huh:.

 

(ROFL!! That was hilarious!!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally relate, OP. I have started to wonder if it is due to my username being Arabic sounding. I almost wanted to try a different username to see if I got more input. Im not calling anyone racist or prejudiced, but sometimes these things are in our subconscious.

 

I can't believe I just shared those thoughts. :$

But it is a very fast paced board, so I don't let the lack of acknowledgements bother me most of the time.

Without having taken a poll or anything I think you might be reading too much into your user name. We've had several well-loved people here of Arabic descent and practicing Muslims.

 

It is just the nature of the beast (message boards) that people sometimes feel ignored.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can stop a thread completely. It can be going along nicely and then I post something and then WHAM! It's dead. It's a gift...

I've never noticed that you are such a thread killer. I think there is a social group for thread killers. :D:lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't necessarily get upset if other posters don't respond to one of my posts but I do get cranky sometimes if the OP doesn't respond, at least with a general thanks to everyone responded.

That bugs me too. Someone will ask a question (or stir the pot), 50 people will respond and then nothing. Ugh! Why did we waste our time? Oh, well. Again, nature of the beast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without having taken a poll or anything I think you might be reading too much into your user name. We've had several well-loved people here of Arabic descent and practicing Muslims.

 

It is just the nature of the beast (message boards) that people sometimes feel ignored.[/QUOTE]

 

 

:iagree: and i said those very words: the nature of the message board. Lucy_van_Pelt-752010.gifDidn't you read it?????? huh??????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...