Jump to content

Menu

Dd14 being sent home from camp. Wwyd?


Recommended Posts

Dd14 left yesterday morning with our youth group for camp. Pastor called tonight-- she has snuck off from the group several times and found a "boyfriend" (lots of other groups at this camp), and lied a lot about what she's been up to. Camp goes till Friday, but we're driving 3 hrs each way tomorrow to pick her up.

 

Lots of boy-crazy stuff this year, moodiness, attitude, etc. She's a challenging child with some issues. I thought she was doing better lately. She was excited about camp. I don't know why she would look for trouble.

 

What kind of consequences would you impose?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, I wouldn't push it too far. I know families that have and it was disastrous. Being sent home might be enough, maybe even too much. I wish they had just worked with her. The stigma of being sent home might alienate her from youth group, and isn't that counterproductive to why she is there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would first listen to her side of the story, see what she said about the choices she'd made and why, how they worked out, how she felt about it, how she'd handle such things moving forward. Only then would I consider whether the lessons had already been learned, and therefore whether there would be explicit and/or defacto (e.g. you may find I'm not willing to do X for you for a while, because of trust, or less money for X because we spent it on camp, etc.) consequences. For my family, the "little talk" and the defacto stuff has served me well. YMMV.

 

Whether or not this is your style, I'd reserve judgement until I heard her side of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. - I don't know your family situation but I also would have her spending a lot of time with her dad. I think that girls that age need to bond with dads - not in a creepy way - but to see what an honorable man really is like.

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. - I don't know your family situation but I also would have her spending a lot of time with her dad. I think that girls that age need to bond with dads - not in a creepy way - but to see what an honorable man really is like.

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

:iagree: Typical punishment/banishment from anything is often counterproductive at this age. It gives the child more time to justify why you are so horrible. Keeping them an active part of the family will go a long way in (hopefully) eventual attitude adjustment. I think that you'd have much less impact in anything you do if your dd were a few years older.

 

Praying for you both.:grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

Jean, you are such an incredibly wise woman!! :grouphug:

 

OP, so sorry for the situation. I do agree that holding her close in a supportive manner is the way to go. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

P.S. - I don't know your family situation but I also would have her spending a lot of time with her dad. I think that girls that age need to bond with dads - not in a creepy way - but to see what an honorable man really is like.

 

:iagree:

 

Jean - will you tomato stake me? I want to be wise like you when I grow up. :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dd14 left yesterday morning with our youth group for camp. Pastor called tonight-- she has snuck off from the group several times and found a "boyfriend" (lots of other groups at this camp), and lied a lot about what she's been up to. Camp goes till Friday, but we're driving 3 hrs each way tomorrow to pick her up.

 

Lots of boy-crazy stuff this year, moodiness, attitude, etc. She's a challenging child with some issues. I thought she was doing better lately. She was excited about camp. I don't know why she would look for trouble.

 

What kind of consequences would you impose?

 

Leaving camp was the consequence. But I sure wouldn't make the rest of the week fun and games. There'd be chores and no extraordinary outings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leaving camp was the consequence. But I sure wouldn't make the rest of the week fun and games. There'd be chores and no extraordinary outings.

 

:iagree: And I like Jean tomato-stake idea.

 

Am I the only one wondering how she snuck off several times, and found a "boyfriend" in a day and a half? Perhaps camp is a little too chaotic and under-supervised if this is the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree: And I like Jean tomato-stake idea.

 

Am I the only one wondering how she snuck off several times, and found a "boyfriend" in a day and a half? Perhaps camp is a little too chaotic and under-supervised if this is the case.

 

:iagree:

 

I also agree with Joanne and Jean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree: And I like Jean tomato-stake idea.

 

Am I the only one wondering how she snuck off several times, and found a "boyfriend" in a day and a half? Perhaps camp is a little too chaotic and under-supervised if this is the case.

 

:iagree:Makes me think of the time I went to venturer camp and another girl and I snuck off at night. She knew a guy in a town near to the camp so after campfire we pretended to go off to bed, but really snuck out of th tent, behind the tree line and over the fence, then walked 45 minutes down the highway to this town where we were able to call him from a payphone. We didn't go back to camp until the next am, he drove us back, we snuck back in and went about the day like nothing happened. No one ever caught us because no one bothered checking on us once we said we were headed to bed. If the camp has too much freedom/lack of supervision teens can get some really stupid ideas in their heads very quickly. Over all I was a good kid, but that stunt could have had dire consequences and no one would have even noticed until it was too late.

 

If it was my dd my response would be determined on where she snuck off to and what exactly is meant by her having a "boyfriend". Given that it is a bible camp their idea of boyfriend and sneaking off maybe different from me. Was it that she just didn't stick with teh group in each session and went elsewhere but still on camp grounds? or did she completely leave camp. Was she found hanging out with a guy alone, or kissing etc.

 

If she was simply ducking out of sessions to hang out with someone on camp grounds, and just hanging out not making out, there would be no further punishment beyond being sent home from camp. If she was leaving campgrounds completely, or being inappropriately intimate with this guy than certainly I would be tomato staking her.

 

Last year at family bible camp ds13 kept ducking out of things. He very well could have been accused of sneaking out etc, but really he just wanted to talk with new friends rather than sit through chapel etc. Not okay for bible camp but in the grand scheme of things pretty minor imo.

 

The lieing regardless of whether the rest of her behaviour was fairly innocent would face consequences though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree:

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

I agree with this too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

:iagree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have gotten some good advice. Leaving camp and the humiliation of having your parents pick you up is probably worse than any punishment you could think up. Although, I couldn't help wonder as I read this, who paid for camp? We have an understanding here that if DH and I pay for an activity and a child misses out due to poor behavior/choices the money spent must be worked off in chores. That may or may not be appropriate in your family culture. Still, I'd be tempted to at least charge for the gas to pick her up.

Edited by BLA5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the tomato staking. Also, my response would be based on her behavior after I went to get her. If she was contrite, clearly aware of her mistakes, and understood why it was wrong, I would probably not add too much beyond the early dismissal and tomato staking.

 

However, if she was defiant, full of complaints about why this whole thing was someone else's fault, trying to lie to me about what had really happened, then my response would probably differ.

 

Mistakes made due to poor choices and inexperience can usually be "fixed", but those made intentionally and unrepentently are much more difficult to "cure". If this was the case, then we would be likely to visit (and perhaps do a little work) at the local shelter for battered women, at the hospital I know of that takes charity cases and often has very sick infants born to young teens. I would try to give her first hand, personal knowledge of the additional consequences of sneaking around with guys, and explain that once a person gets in too deep, no one can save them from the natural consequences of their actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would want more details first. I assume the adults will explain exactly what happened when you get there.

 

If there is adequate supervision, it would have taken a lot of effort on her part to sneak off, and that would spell defiance to me. If there was minimal supervision, I would question allowing my child to ever go back to a camp like that.

 

Just some perspective on my part.....my 14 and 12 year old boys are off at camp this week and my DH went to help supervise. I have a problem with teens just going off to camp without me knowing WHO is watching them, what the expectations are, and what kind of supervisory conditions are in place. We do NOT allow them to go to our church camp because I feel it is too lax. They go to boy scout camp because it is far more structured and our troop older boys model good behavior AND my DH is there.

 

As for punishment. I personally would want to have a long talk with her, find out exactly what she was thinking and have her tell me why that might not be a good idea (sneaking off with some boy she just met, disobedience to the rules, things that might have happened not only with the boy, but also just safety issues, why having all the kids just wander off creates more work for those in authority, how she might have handled it if she were in charge and someone did what she did, etc....) Then she might get the birds and the bees talk all over again from me and the more eye rolling the more graphic I would get! :lol: All cell phones and communication devices would be taken away and she would be on restriction for an amount of time I deemed necessary based on the above discussion.

 

Dawn

 

Dd14 left yesterday morning with our youth group for camp. Pastor called tonight-- she has snuck off from the group several times and found a "boyfriend" (lots of other groups at this camp), and lied a lot about what she's been up to. Camp goes till Friday, but we're driving 3 hrs each way tomorrow to pick her up.

 

Lots of boy-crazy stuff this year, moodiness, attitude, etc. She's a challenging child with some issues. I thought she was doing better lately. She was excited about camp. I don't know why she would look for trouble.

 

What kind of consequences would you impose?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also find myself wondering about how this came to be in a day and a half. I would be pulling her closer to strengthen our bond, and I would look for some understanding from her about what she did.

 

But, I would give it a good 36 hours. I wouldn't expect anything but anger and defiance and excuses on the way home. I don't know her at all (obviously) but many teens would be feeling embarrassed etc and prime for lashing out.

 

So, get her side of the story, maybe just let it be for a bit, and then figure out how to make it better.

 

Is it possible she got there and hated it and figured out a way to get herself home? That is the sort of thing my brother would have done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Jean and the idea of "pulling her in close" to you. And, I mean in a *pleasant* way. Not indulging her, but working together and talking. Also, when my dd recently had to lose a privilege and be home, I made a point to hang out with her once the work was done. We made dinner together and watched some movies together. I made a point of letting her know that noone is perfect. We all choose things we shouldn't, but we also all have to pay consequences of our choices and I hugged her and let her know that I know how hard that is because I've been there myself. In a very few short years, she will be gone from your home. I do not think that coming down from a dictatorial point of view will help: "You will NOT do xxx" because as soon as she is out of your sight, she may very well do just that. I think it is more important to help them look beyond the moment...because that is what she was doing, acting in the moment. At this age, we have to help them THINK and see how the results of their choices *could* play out and teach them to consider these things before making those choices. This could include talking about relationships but also I think it's important to point out that many of the missing person stories we hear on the news DO involve teens/young adults who were in places at times that were not something seen as *normal* to their friends and family. kwim? Sneaking around with people you do NOT know could lead to SERIOUS and *life altering* consequences and they need to realize that.

 

On a different tack, I would ALSO have some serious questions for the leadership in charge at the camp. I attended and chaperoned for a camp that was very loose and provided many opportunities for kids to get into trouble because it was neither organized nor run well. I also worked at a camp that, although there are always kids who will find a way, they really had to WORK at getting into trouble because every minute of the day was accounted for. Even if it was *free time*, we counselors were held responsible to KNOW what our kids were doing during their *free* time and to be certain they were where they said they would be. So, I do feel there is a place to address this. She is FOURTEEN. In that short of a time span, I could see maybe wandering off *once*, but multiple times? Something isn't right.

 

Hope this makes sense...haven't had my second cup of coffee yet!

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Jean and the idea of "pulling her in close" to you. And, I mean in a *pleasant* way. Not indulging her, but working together and talking. Also, when my dd recently had to lose a privilege and be home, I made a point to hang out with her once the work was done. We made dinner together and watched some movies together. I made a point of letting her know that noone is perfect. We all choose things we shouldn't, but we also all have to pay consequences of our choices and I hugged her and let her know that I know how hard that is because I've been there myself. In a very few short years, she will be gone from your home. I do not think that coming down from a dictatorial point of view will help: "You will NOT do xxx" because as soon as she is out of your sight, she may very well do just that. I think it is more important to help them look beyond the moment...because that is what she was doing, acting in the moment. At this age, we have to help them THINK and see how the results of their choices *could* play out and teach them to consider these things before making those choices. This could include talking about relationships but also I think it's important to point out that many of the missing person stories we hear on the news DO involve teens/young adults who were in places at times that were not something seen as *normal* to their friends and family. kwim? Sneaking around with people you do NOT know could lead to SERIOUS and *life altering* consequences and they need to realize that.

 

On a different tack, I would ALSO have some serious questions for the leadership in charge at the camp. I attended and chaperoned for a camp that was very loose and provided many opportunities for kids to get into trouble because it was neither organized nor run well. I also worked at a camp that, although there are always kids who will find a way, they really had to WORK at getting into trouble because every minute of the day was accounted for. Even if it was *free time*, we counselors were held responsible to KNOW what our kids were doing during their *free* time and to be certain they were where they said they would be. So, I do feel there is a place to address this. She is FOURTEEN. In that short of a time span, I could see maybe wandering off *once*, but multiple times? Something isn't right.

 

Hope this makes sense...haven't had my second cup of coffee yet!

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree: Great advice IMO!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, it would depend on her behaviors before camp. Did she do things like sneak off and hang out with people you didn't know? Maybe she was looking forward to camp because she knew she would be out from under your watchful gaze. Maybe it was a wild streak and she'll feel remorse, realizing just how inappropriate that behavior is. Not all teens find such behavior okay. She may have just given herself a reputation in her youth group and with her leaders that will take a long time to repair. I think she has some serious consequences coming up ahead of her. I do think her parents should step up and do something appropriate, like telling her she can't go off with friends anymore. If she goes to youth group, I would walk her to the door and drop her off, then be there to pick her up when it's over. That could backfire, so i don't know. I just think she should have some her freedom curbed so she can understand that with freedom comes a certain responsibility. She showed she isn't yet ready for such responsibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant to also add that I would not be opposed to requiring her to work off the money spent on the camp and the gas to pick her up early. Again, it is the tone and manner in which you levy the consequences. Many times, our choices DO have financial repercussions and often THOSE are the things we remember and do not revisit. It will need to be a LOVING lesson and not an ANGRY one though...or the true lesson will be lost in the emotions. :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would DEFINITELY have her work off the cost of camp and gas. And, I agree with tomato staking-when teens pull away I believe we really need to pull them back to us, even when it is the LAST thing they want (or quite honestly the last thing that *I* want. :glare:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think going home from camp early would be a pretty good punishment.

 

I second the advice spend loads of time with her dad. Mine wasn't around much in late middle/early high school and I found teen boys gave attention. But I wish my dad had been around instead.

 

And find an activity to keep her busy. A sport or music thing. SOmething with lots of weekly lesson times, weekend responsibilities. I had a mom tell me way back when mine were tiny that her teens involved heavily in a sport were focused and doing ok. The one with nothing was bored and got into trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have gotten some good advice. Leaving camp and the humiliation of having your parents pick you up is probably worse than any punishment you could think up. Although, I couldn't help wonder as I read this, who paid for camp? We have an understanding here that if DH and I pay for an activity and a child misses out due to poor behavior/choices the money spent must be worked off in chores. That may or may not be appropriate in your family culture. Still, I'd be tempted to at least charge for the gas to pick her up.

 

I was wondering about this too. I know camps around here are over the $200 range. I would think there needs to be some restitution of some sort. I do agree that being sent home is the consequence to her behavior and, agree too, that I'm surprised they took that step so quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

P.S. - I don't know your family situation but I also would have her spending a lot of time with her dad. I think that girls that age need to bond with dads - not in a creepy way - but to see what an honorable man really is like.

 

:iagree: I try to do bonding things with the kids weekly and encourage my dh to do the same, it does seem to be making a difference.

 

Being sent home was likely very embarrassing, and might be the wake up call she needs. Sometimes kids think mom and dad need to lighten up, but when someone outside the family gives a consequence, then something clicks. I hope that is true for your dd. This parenting thing can be hard sometimes. :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" she has snuck off from the group several times and found a "boyfriend" (lots of other groups at this camp), and lied a lot about what she's been up to.

 

Lots of boy-crazy stuff this year, moodiness, attitude, etc. She's a challenging child with some issues.

 

I agree with the tomato staking and even if you were planning on having a relaxing week I would turn it into a deep cleaning the house week.

 

The parts above are what concern me the most. 14 is old enough to know the scary parts of going off with a boy she may have just met. Church camps are great but some of the teens that are there have had tough backgrounds and aren't very pure and Jesus like. They go because their family feels they need to find God, not that they are already believers and followers. I would research some articles about what has happened to young girls when they put themselves in situations that they think is save but really isn't. I remember reading an article when I was in college that was very eye opening to a very young innocent girl. I was very careful after that not to put myself in a position that would allow anything to happen to me. I was also very careful my friends didn't wander off with a guy we didn't know during parties.

 

Your daughter may have put herself in a very dangerous situation. She needs to know what could have happened. You have to have some very blunt conversations with her if you want her to be safe in the future.

 

The biggest consequence from this that my kids would have to live with is no more teen activities unless DH or I could chaperon. She has shown she won't listen to other adults, she would need one of us on any other event to keep an eye on her. My kids know that trust is something I will give them plenty of until they break it. Once it's broken it takes a long time to build back up. I would not trust her to keep herself out of danger for a long while.

 

Good luck

Melissa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We ended up leaving her at camp. The leaders are great people and I know them well. It is a small group -- 10 kids, 3 leaders; she is now tomato-staked to one of the leaders, the pastor's wife. Both the pastor and his wife have had long, blunt, eye-opening talks with dd. They feel something good is happening between dd and God, and they want her to stay. She won't be more than 2 inches from pastor's wife the rest of the week. They are very wise people and I trust them.

 

I so appreciate everyone's advice and comments, and I take it all to heart. Tomato-staking, lots of good time with dad, educating her on the dangers of this behavior -- going to do all of this. I'm thinking, too, keeping up with all of her activities that are immediately-supervised (like tae kwon do, where I am right there watching), but stopping any that aren't (like youth group, where she mostly boy-hunts from what I hear). I am hoping dh (who is much calmer this morning!) will agree to apprentice her this summer, keep her busy doing work with him.

 

Just to answer the questions about supervision at camp. There are lots of activities to choose from during free time (sports, pool, etc.), and they were allowed to choose as long as they went in groups of at least three. She ditched her group. The second time, they were all going together to chapel, following the leaders, and she slipped away on the way there; they noticed very quickly, but spent about a half hour looking for her. Then at chapel, a boy came and sat next to her - she had obviously met him there during one of her wanderings.

 

This is my third trip through early-teen-girlhood; I hope I make it. :001_smile: First two were easier (or else I've blocked a lot out).

 

Again, thank you so much. You have all helped so much.

 

Wendy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dd14 left yesterday morning with our youth group for camp. Pastor called tonight-- she has snuck off from the group several times and found a "boyfriend" (lots of other groups at this camp), and lied a lot about what she's been up to. Camp goes till Friday, but we're driving 3 hrs each way tomorrow to pick her up.

 

Lots of boy-crazy stuff this year, moodiness, attitude, etc. She's a challenging child with some issues. I thought she was doing better lately. She was excited about camp. I don't know why she would look for trouble.

 

What kind of consequences would you impose?

She has already had her consequences. She has to leave the camp.

 

Honestly, having an almost 16 year old daughter who is very challenging, I would leave this alone and say as little as possible. Just drive home silently. That will say more than anything else you could argue (believe me, btdt).

 

That's what I'd do today....though I would probably have lectured 2 years ago.

 

ETA: I hope they have increased the supervision. Some of the stories here were scary. I'd also wonder if she pre-planned this with the boy since it all happened so quickly. And I'd investigate futher. But that's me. Hope it all works out.

Edited by TranquilMind
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just drive home silently.

 

Be careful with silent treatments. That was my father's course of action when he was mad at me, or disappointed in my actions. It took me YEARS to forgive him for not speaking to me, sometimes for hours or even a day or two at a time. It was awful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe in using natural consequences. Being sent home is definitely a consequence. I would also require her to repay you in some way for the additional 6 hour trip that you had to make to pick her up and the rest of the week would not be any fun. Once things calm down some perhaps a heart to heart would be in order.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tomato-stake her. In an older child, this means that we would be working in the garden together, sewing together, working on projects, volunteering to help others, doing chores - together. As we worked (and we would be working hard), we might talk and we might laugh and hopefully she would start to model my character as a woman even as she is figuring out who she wants to be.

 

P.S. - I don't know your family situation but I also would have her spending a lot of time with her dad. I think that girls that age need to bond with dads - not in a creepy way - but to see what an honorable man really is like.

:iagree: I think a little of both of those is in order. Girls who have solid relationships with both parents tend to act out less. She would be spending her time with both sides to perhaps better understand what she is looking for in a man and better understand how to be have as a girl. I wish like crazy that my parents had done this to me, even though I know I would've fought it somewhat at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Be careful with silent treatments. That was my father's course of action when he was mad at me, or disappointed in my actions. It took me YEARS to forgive him for not speaking to me, sometimes for hours or even a day or two at a time. It was awful.

 

I understand. What I really meant was drive home without LECTURING, which is a huge temptation for me. Maybe it isn't for others. I didn't mean refusing to speak at all.

 

If I drove home silently (not silent treatment but without lectures) it would not only be a major victory for me, as it is so very hard to do, it would be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand. What I really meant was drive home without LECTURING, which is a huge temptation for me. Maybe it isn't for others. I didn't mean refusing to speak at all.

 

If I drove home silently (not silent treatment but without lectures) it would not only be a major victory for me, as it is so very hard to do, it would be appreciated.

 

Aah, that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...