s/o vegan posts - dealing with indirect harm to animals

[GoVanGogh]

This is something I have struggled with -- How to deal with animals being harmed or killed to put vegan food on the table.

I am a former vegetarian and wanted to move closer toward vegan, but I knew animals were still being killed to bring me that tomato, apple or pecan. I felt hypocritical.

 

Trying to raise my own produce has only brought that more to light. I have been a strict organic gardener for 20 years, but a vegan gardener? I know one can buy organic vegan fertilizer that doesn't contain bone or fish meal or manures. But what about animal control?

How to get rid of tomato hornworms? I can relocate them, but still know they will die without their food source. I can't trap and relocate racoons because that is inhumane. I can fence to keep out the racoons and rabbits, but the mice and lizards still get through the fencing.

That is just on my own small scale garden.

 

DH and I were raised on farms in the '60s and '70s when there was still such a thing as a 'family farm.'

My late uncle used to lament that he had to kill more animals to grow corn and soybeans than he did when he raised cattle and pigs.

I remember going to the grain elevators as a child and being alarmed at how they killed the rats and mice. :tongue_smilie:

DH's brother still farms and says the same thing.

 

I know large scale agriculture is much worse. I have been to commercial orchards and strawberry fields and know they kill, trap or poison with little regard to wildlife.

 

The book that really touched me was "This Organic Life." The author writes, "We are all killers. We either do it personally or through surrogates, but we simply can't avoid the fact that, if we eat, killing is being done on our behalf." After reading this book and coming to terms with the realities of raising my own food, we made the decision that locally grown food outweighs vegan right now. We eat a plant-based (raw food) diet as much as possible, but how to come to terms with how that food is raised?

 

If you are a vegan for animal rights reasons (as opposed to being vegan for only health reasons), how do you deal with this? Is there such a thing as a vegan CSA or food co-op?

[Bluegoat]

I'm not in those groups, because I think the kind of thing you are mentioning is a pretty much insoluble part of the ethical/moral question. We are omnivores, and I've come to the conclusion after having a vegetarian period early in my adulthood that is both the healthiest and most efficient way for us to eat.

 

Trying to maintain that we can live strictly without being responsible for the deaths of other living creatures is almost an attempt to make our bodies an abstraction. And it just doesn't work, for all the reasons you mention - we're surrounded by living things, we are part of an ecosystem that actually penetrates us, there is no way to extricate ourselves from it.

 

I'd say the best bet it to find locally sourced food that recognizes that and works to maintain and sustain a healthy farm and wild ecosystem.

[GoVanGogh]

And it just doesn't work, for all the reasons you mention - we're surrounded by living things, we are part of an ecosystem that actually penetrates us, there is no way to extricate ourselves from it.

Yes, that is what I have realized after trying to vegetable garden for 20 years. I have not been able to harvest a single tomato this year because of the lizards. Who knew lizards could nibble on so many tomatoes?! :lol:

 

But then I have read so many articles and posts from vegans who say they don't eat anything that harms animals and I wonder if they know something I don't or what? We have organic farmer's markets here, but nothing vegan. If I ask an organic farmer how he grows tomatoes and keeps off the tomato hornworms, I know his answer will be that he "organically stomps them." (I know enough organic farmers and know this is the standard answer.) But are there vegan commercial farmers? As you said, one cannot pull themselves out of the ecosystem. Scarecrows only work in the movies. Real farmers I know are killing animals to keep them out of their fields.

[HappyLady]

I think that most vegans, at least the ones in my circle, are well aware that bugs, insects, etc, die in the process of farming fruits, veggies, etc. However, we just do our best to cause the least amount of pain and suffering by choosing to eat the way we do. I would rather eat vegan and know that a chicken isn't having its neck sliced and not dying instantly and then being thrown into scalding hot water or a cow is being hoisted up by its leg and again, not being fully killed before it goes through the slaughter process, or know that I'm not contributing to a calf being taken away from its mother shortly after birth only to be put in a veal crate while the mother bellows for her baby just so people can drink her baby's milk, and male chicks are being ground up alive just so people can eat eggs......

 

So for me, the choice is obvious. And I'm quite healthy after eating this way for many, many years.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

They try to do the least amount of harm.

[GoVanGogh]

I think that most vegans, at least the ones in my circle, are well aware that bugs, insects, etc, die in the process of farming fruits, veggies, etc.

But what about the bigger animals? The racoons, deer, squirrels, birds, etc.

I am from the midwest and the farmers there kill so many deer and racoons to keep them out of their fields. :001_huh: To me, that is just as sad as what you described.

[ktgrok]

There is no perfect answer. There are buddhist sects that practice anhimsa, which means something along the lines of doing no harm, but no one is perfect. I think if you compare factory farmed meat/eggs/milk like Bean described above, than eating a plant based diet is less harmful. If you compare ethically raised/harvested/grass fed meat to large scale agricultural grain/vegetables/etc than the issue becomes much less clear, and I woudl say probably ends up on the side of the locally raised/grassfed meat.

[GoVanGogh]

I think if you compare factory farmed meat/eggs/milk like Bean described above, than eating a plant based diet is less harmful. If you compare ethically raised/harvested/grass fed meat to large scale agricultural grain/vegetables/etc than the issue becomes much less clear, and I woudl say probably ends up on the side of the locally raised/grassfed meat.

That is what I keep coming up with. It just isn't as clear as I want it to be. We eat locally and unprocessed because we don't want the packaging or shipping issues. We don't like large scale agriculture, whether it be for chickens or spinach. I know my uncle treated his beef cows better than he did the animals he was trying to keep out of his corn and that bothers me.

[HappyLady]

But what about the bigger animals? The racoons, deer, squirrels, birds, etc.

I am from the midwest and the farmers there kill so many deer and racoons to keep them out of their fields. :001_huh: To me, that is just as sad as what you described.

 

That is sad, but what should people eat then? Rocks? :lol: I mean really, there is no way to live TRULY vegan and I think it's ridiculous when people argue with a vegan about "what about this animal" because we do have to still eat! I certainly don't want the farmers killing animals just so he can grow my foods and I know there are plenty of ways to keep animals out without killing them so there's no need for the farmers to do what they're doing. The world isn't perfect, but I just do the best I can for my cause.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, that is what I have realized after trying to vegetable garden for 20 years. I have not been able to harvest a single tomato this year because of the lizards. Who knew lizards could nibble on so many tomatoes?! :lol:

 

But then I have read so many articles and posts from vegans who say they don't eat anything that harms animals and I wonder if they know something I don't or what? We have organic farmer's markets here, but nothing vegan. If I ask an organic farmer how he grows tomatoes and keeps off the tomato hornworms, I know his answer will be that he "organically stomps them." (I know enough organic farmers and know this is the standard answer.) But are there vegan commercial farmers? As you said, one cannot pull themselves out of the ecosystem. Scarecrows only work in the movies. Real farmers I know are killing animals to keep them out of their fields.

 

I don't think there is such thing as a vegan farmer in the way you mean. And I think ktgrok is right - when you look at ethical farming compared to factory farming, it isn't clear that being vegan is really an answer.

 

I don't think vegans know something you don't. Some really haven't thought about it or have no experience with actually trying to grow things to draw on. Others feel that while they may not be successful at totally avoiding harm, they are minimizing it.

 

I think the issue with that to me is that I think mixed farming is best for total ecosystem health, and I don't think it is really all that easy to say how the suffering of the slugs I drown in my beer is worth less than that of a cow or chicken. So I am not sure that it reduces harm in either a systematic way or on a one to one sort of count.

[GoVanGogh]

I certainly don't want the farmers killing animals just so he can grow my foods and I know there are plenty of ways to keep animals out without killing them so there's no need for the farmers to do what they're doing.

But that leads back to my original post - are there vegan CSA or co-ops?

I can't figure out how to grow enough food for my family because there are simply too many critters willing to eat it first! Seriously, I have racoons, possums, squirrels, rabbits, birds, snakes, lizards and mice eating on my garden. How do you keep them out of your garden? Is that a method that can be used on a large scale to support a vegan CSA?

I haven't been to a grain elevator in a number of years, but I'm not really sure on that large of a scale how they are suppose to protect the food supply from animals. I guess that is a lot of what drove me back to eating locally.

[Bluegoat]

I found this article about vegan farming, if you followed up on some of the organizations I bet you could find more.

 

Vegan Organic Agriculture