How do I convince dd to study latin...again?

[Jen the RD]

My dd completed LFC A & about 50% of Latin Prep I about 18 months ago. She hated Latin and we were both frustrated because we found we really needed a teacher to understand it. So, I allowed her to stop and we picked up French this year. I took 3 years of French in high school, so I am much more confident in teaching this at least through the first 2 years of HS French, although I am contemplating TPS French.

 

I know that latin would be very useful for both SAT scores & science. Her goal, as of now, is to be a physical therapist. However, I'm torn about how much to press this. She wants to continue French (which we will), but I know we've got to find an online latin class. So, here are my questions.....

 

1. Should I "require" at least 2 years of HS Latin?

2. If so, I've got to find a class that won't bog her down. Would Lone Pine classical be a good fit?

3. If she does an online Latin, could she also do an online French simultaeously without drowning in workload? She'll be in 9th grade.

 

TIA,

Jennifer

[regentrude]

I do not see any compelling reason why you need to require her to do two years of Latin in high school - especially not if she hated it.

I know that latin would be very useful for both SAT scores & science. Her goal, as of now, is to be a physical therapist.

 

This does not convince me, for several reasons:

She did have some Latin.

One can do very well on the standardized test's English portions without any Latin.

She will have French, which will help with vocabulary - it's a romance language based ON Latin.

There is not *that* much Latin a physical therapist needs - mainly anatomical terms, i.e. single words, no grammar, no reading of Latin texts (and most of science does very well without any Latin these days.)

[Jen the RD]

I do not see any compelling reason why you need to require her to do two years of Latin in high school - especially not if she hated it.

 

 

This does not convince me, for several reasons:

She did have some Latin.

One can do very well on the standardized test's English portions without any Latin.

She will have French, which will help with vocabulary - it's a romance language based ON Latin.

There is not *that* much Latin a physical therapist needs - mainly anatomical terms, i.e. single words, no grammar, no reading of Latin texts (and most of science does very well without any Latin these days.)

 

Regentrude,

Thank you....I can always count on you to give me exactly the perspective I need. She really *LOVES* French and I know will therefore be more motivated to study.

 

BTW, I know you've mentioned your dd took a dual enrolled French class and enjoyed it. What grade was she in when she started? (I think the college here will not accept anyone under 11th grade, but I plan to call admissions tomorrow.) How did she handle the pace and workload with her other courses?

 

Jennifer

[regentrude]

BTW, I know you've mentioned your dd took a dual enrolled French class and enjoyed it. What grade was she in when she started? I think the college here will not accept anyone under 11th grade, but I plan to call admissions tomorrow. How did she handle the pace and workload with her other courses?

 

 

My DD is a bit unusual, very academically inclined and accelerated. She took French dually enrolled in 10th grade, but she had taken her first college class (physics, by instructor consent, not formally enrolled) in 8th grade (which we ended up relabeling 9th).

I do not know whether our university normally accepts 14 year old students for dual enrollment, but she had a good SAT score from 7th grade, and both DH and I teach here, so maybe this helped with the admissions department.

 

She had no problem with the pace (physics was harder than French) and the work load. I was not allowed to have anything to do with it, she completely managed her assignments and study times. We gave this class priority, so French always came first, and we made sure she could devote enough time to it (four hours in class plus homework added to about 8-10 hours each week).

[Jen the RD]

She had no problem with the pace (physics was harder than French) and the work load. I was not allowed to have anything to do with it, she completely managed her assignments and study times. We gave this class priority, so French always came first, and we made sure she could devote enough time to it (four hours in class plus homework added to about 8-10 hours each week).

 

10-12 (4 class + study time) hours per week is the amount of time I had estimated, so it's good to hear that that's probably accurate for my dd. I would call her advanced, but not at the accelerated level as your dd. Thanks so much for sharing!

 

Jennifer

[ElegitNos]

My dd completed LFC A & about 50% of Latin Prep I about 18 months ago. She hated Latin and we were both frustrated because we found we really needed a teacher to understand it.

 

If she loves French, but hates Latin, it means that Latin was not being taught in a correct manner.

 

I experienced something similar with my daughter when we sent her into a private school that used a grammar based Latin course. She didn't like it. When we started homeschooling again, I switched to a more direct-immersion approach and very quickly she become excited about Latin.

 

The French she loves is probably taught (as most modern languages) in a direct-immersion approach.

 

If it were me and as bright as your daughter sounds, I would just hand her Lingua Latina, Pars I, Familia Romana (see Amazon, for example) and let her have at it. And if you can find friends, or a tutor, or yourself, to start speaking Latin with her, she'll be hooked.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

If she loves French, but hates Latin, it means that Latin was not being taught in a correct manner.

 

I experienced something similar with my daughter when we sent her into a private school that used a grammar based Latin course. She didn't like it. When we started homeschooling again, I switched to a more direct-immersion approach and very quickly she become excited about Latin.

 

The French she loves is probably taught (as most modern languages) in a direct-immersion approach.

 

If it were me and as bright as your daughter sounds, I would just hand her Lingua Latina, Pars I, Familia Romana (see Amazon, for example) and let her have at it. And if you can find friends, or a tutor, or yourself, to start speaking Latin with her, she'll be hooked.

 

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the bolded statement above. It would be an interesting situation to define correct teaching as that which produced love for a subject. (No good teachers fail to inspire all students? No students learn to embrace a subject that is haltingly instructed?)

 

Latin and a modern language provide very different payoffs.

 

I'm not saying that Latin is not worth learning. My bookshelves and my checkbook would testify otherwise. I do think that there are reasons other than inadequate teaching that can lead to preferring one language over another.

[Jen the RD]

Latin and a modern language provide very different payoffs.

 

Sebastian,

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by the above. I'd like to read your perspective.

 

Thanks,

Jennifer

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that the goals with Latin and a modern language are different.

 

With Latin, you move from simple texts (either immersion or grammar based) in order to master texts that are complicated because of their antiquity or subject matter (Caeser, Virgil, Newton). You are working toward engaging with classics on their own terms, rather than through a lens of translation.

 

With a modern language, your goal might include complex written texts (Cervantes, Dumas, Goethe for example), but you also generally have the goal of being able to watch a movie, engage in a phone call, transact business (store or bank), and hundreds of other mundane daily language transactions.

 

Deeper success with Latin brings you into deeper communion with texts of the past. Deeper success with modern languages opens doors in the present and future (and recent past, but not more than the last few hundred years in many languages, either because the language has changed so much as to almost be a different language or because there isn't that many older documents in the language).

 

We have studied both Latin and German. I think some familiarity with Latin is awesome. I don't think that it is mandatory to master Latin. I do think you should master a modern language if at all possible.

[ElegitNos]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the bolded statement above. It would be an interesting situation to define correct teaching as that which produced love for a subject. (No good teachers fail to inspire all students? No students learn to embrace a subject that is haltingly instructed?)

 

 

Sebastian --- of course good teachers and methods sometimes fail, and bad teachers and methods sometimes succeed.

 

Most of the time modern languages are taught in a direct-immersion approach and most of the time Latin is not. If the student loves French, but hates Latin, perhaps it's more the way these foreign languages are being taught. Based on my own experience, as I indicated, this seems a real possibility. I certainly wouldn't give up and assume that it's just Latin that she hates. That would be a disservice to the child.

[elegantlion]

Sebastian --- of course good teachers and methods sometimes fail, and bad teachers and methods sometimes succeed.

 

Most of the time modern languages are taught in a direct-immersion approach and most of the time Latin is not. If the student loves French, but hates Latin, perhaps it's more the way these foreign languages are being taught. Based on my own experience, as I indicated, this seems a real possibility. I certainly wouldn't give up and assume that it's just Latin that she hates. That would be a disservice to the child.

 

We used both approaches to Latin, grammar and immersion. I adore Latin, ds does not. The approach didn't change his lack of desire.

 

He much prefers learning Japanese and will apply himself fully to that.

 

To the OP, I agree with regentrude. I had two lines of thought in our Latin studies.

 

1. require it, like math, it's non-negotiable.

 

2. Recommend it unless there is a great desire to learn another language.

 

In our case, ds wants to study 2-3 languages in high school, none of them Latin. It was with great trepidation I opted to let Japanese become our primary language for next year. In the end it became about limited time. I am going to require a roots study this year, but he also wants to learn Russian and/or German. So between two languages and all the other requirements we've run out of schedule. Allowing him to drop Latin has given him some ownership of his schedule, and is in line with his long term educational and life goals. *sigh* It was a hard decision. I'm continuing my study of Latin, however.

[Jen the RD]

If she loves French, but hates Latin, it means that Latin was not being taught in a correct manner.

 

I experienced something similar with my daughter when we sent her into a private school that used a grammar based Latin course. She didn't like it. When we started homeschooling again, I switched to a more direct-immersion approach and very quickly she become excited about Latin.

 

The French she loves is probably taught (as most modern languages) in a direct-immersion approach.

 

If it were me and as bright as your daughter sounds, I would just hand her Lingua Latina, Pars I, Familia Romana (see Amazon, for example) and let her have at it. And if you can find friends, or a tutor, or yourself, to start speaking Latin with her, she'll be hooked.

 

The french program is a combo grammar-immersion approach and both my kids have thoroughly enjoyed it. I think dd sees the usefulness of the language for future opportunities, and enjoys learning about the culture. This is not the case for the Latin, and while an immersion approach might help her, I keep asking myself is there time in our schedule to really add it.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Jennifer

[Jen the RD]

I think that the goals with Latin and a modern language are different.

 

With Latin, you move from simple texts (either immersion or grammar based) in order to master texts that are complicated because of their antiquity or subject matter (Caeser, Virgil, Newton). You are working toward engaging with classics on their own terms, rather than through a lens of translation.

 

With a modern language, your goal might include complex written texts (Cervantes, Dumas, Goethe for example), but you also generally have the goal of being able to watch a movie, engage in a phone call, transact business (store or bank), and hundreds of other mundane daily language transactions.

 

Deeper success with Latin brings you into deeper communion with texts of the past. Deeper success with modern languages opens doors in the present and future (and recent past, but not more than the last few hundred years in many languages, either because the language has changed so much as to almost be a different language or because there isn't that many older documents in the language).

 

We have studied both Latin and German. I think some familiarity with Latin is awesome. I don't think that it is mandatory to master Latin. I do think you should master a modern language if at all possible.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. In my early days of reading WTM, I was so ready to embrace the aspects of learning Latin to "open doors to the past" and give my kids the education that I wanted them to have. Over the years, I've realized there is only so much time to accomplish things and my priorities have shifted with my kids' interests. For most things, I don't regret that, but for Latin, there has been a constant nag of "what if". Honestly though, I don't know where we'd schedule it with our already packed schedule and again, this is where I have to consider dd's interests/motivation in really going forth.

 

Jennifer

[Jen the RD]

We used both approaches to Latin, grammar and immersion. I adore Latin, ds does not. The approach didn't change his lack of desire.

 

He much prefers learning Japanese and will apply himself fully to that.

 

To the OP, I agree with regentrude. I had two lines of thought in our Latin studies.

 

1. require it, like math, it's non-negotiable.

 

2. Recommend it unless there is a great desire to learn another language.

 

In our case, ds wants to study 2-3 languages in high school, none of them Latin. It was with great trepidation I opted to let Japanese become our primary language for next year. In the end it became about limited time. I am going to require a roots study this year, but he also wants to learn Russian and/or German. So between two languages and all the other requirements we've run out of schedule. Allowing him to drop Latin has given him some ownership of his schedule, and is in line with his long term educational and life goals. *sigh* It was a hard decision. I'm continuing my study of Latin, however.

 

Paula, thank you for sharing your experience. Your son is incredibly motivated to pursue 2-3 languages and in that case, I'd forget Latin, too! Really though, I understand your dilemma about time, because now that we're beginning HS, the whole "time issue" is staring me in the face as I plan this year and subsequent ones, too. That was the whole reason for my post--I wanted to get a sense of whether or not Latin was worth our blood, sweat, & tears. KWIM!

 

Thanks,

Jennifer