What is the point of dissecting frogs

[clarkacademy]

I know in my highschool we had the choice to do it or drop a letter grade. My A dropped to a B no biggie. I don't remember the value or the reasoning in this activity at all. My oldest is my only public school kid and she is doing this today. She does not want to do this at all. If she doesn't do it she will drop 2 letter grades and be reuired to take the end of year testing that her present grade gets her exempt from.

 

She also was told as a 10th grader she has to do a baby pig. She was a wreck this morning before school and I have a feeling the school is going to call telling me she passed out. Why is this something that HAS to be done?

[creekland]

:grouphug: At our ps, no dissections are done at all unless a student opts to take Anatomy and Physiology. I thought that was more the norm now, but apparently, not everywhere.

 

Dissections are useful for understanding the body, but IMO, they aren't needed for everyone. I'd prefer it if schools that still insisted upon them used the lifelike models that are available and saved the real dissections for students headed into fields (medical, research, vet, etc) who needed them.

[clarkacademy]

Is there any known wa to refuse this??

[Alice]

I think dissections can be valuable, but I'm kind of a science geek and thought they were cool even as a high schooler.I also think that dissection of a frog for a general bio student is probably not all that valuable as compared to other dissection that is more directly related to the subject matter being taught. I taught Anatomy this year at our co-op and we did three dissections (cow's eye, sheep heart and fetal pig). I do think the hands on exploration helped the kids to see some things that's it's hard to visualize otherwise (the relationships of the vessels in the heart, the relative size of the liver, etc).

 

However, I think there should be viable options for opting out. If we'd had a student who didn't want to do the dissection I would have asked them to do/watch a virtual dissection (and there are tons online). And if we'd had any kind of lab write-up I'd have asked them to do something equivalent. All of our students did the dissection and even the ones were squeamish at first got really into them.

 

I don't know where you live but here's a website that details states that have the legal right to refuse as well as other info on refusing dissection.http://www.dosomething.org/actnow/actionguide/know-your-right-refuse-dissection

[clarkacademy]

I think dissections can be valuable, but I'm kind of a science geek and thought they were cool even as a high schooler.I also think that dissection of a frog for a general bio student is probably not all that valuable as compared to other dissection that is more directly related to the subject matter being taught. I taught Anatomy this year at our co-op and we did three dissections (cow's eye, sheep heart and fetal pig). I do think the hands on exploration helped the kids to see some things that's it's hard to visualize otherwise (the relationships of the vessels in the heart, the relative size of the liver, etc).

 

However, I think there should be viable options for opting out. If we'd had a student who didn't want to do the dissection I would have asked them to do/watch a virtual dissection (and there are tons online). And if we'd had any kind of lab write-up I'd have asked them to do something equivalent. All of our students did the dissection and even the ones were squeamish at first got really into them.

 

I don't know where you live but here's a website that details states that have the legal right to refuse as well as other info on refusing dissection.http://www.dosomething.org/actnow/actionguide/know-your-right-refuse-dissection

 

But do they have the right to drop grades and everything for refusal? We live in FL by the way

[clarkacademy]

I just found this website http://pcrm.org/research/edtraining/dissectionalt/states-with-student-choice

 

This is not anything like what my daughter was told and I am hopping mad! We live in FL and everything she was told is not along with this law.

[Parrothead]

I just found this website http://pcrm.org/research/edtraining/dissectionalt/states-with-student-choice

 

This is not anything like what my daughter was told and I am hopping mad! We live in FL and everything she was told is not along with this law.

Looks like it may be time to head to the school with a copy of the law in hand.

[creekland]

Looks like it may be time to head to the school with a copy of the law in hand.

 

:iagree:

[Pippen]

I just found this website http://pcrm.org/research/edtraining/dissectionalt/states-with-student-choice

 

This is not anything like what my daughter was told and I am hopping mad! We live in FL and everything she was told is not along with this law.

 

Even when the teachers know the law, some will carry on like it doesn't exist. My daughter just dissected frogs and the teacher was threatening zeros to students who didn't do it. One parent complained and the principal stepped in and put a stop to that threat.

 

Send in latex gloves if the school doesn't provide them, and suggest that she team up with someone who is interested in doing the dissection.

[angela in ohio]

Here's the Florida statute.

 

It says: Students may be excused upon written request of a parent.

 

There is no language about grades, so you would need to find out if there is any precedent of someone refusing, being marked down, and then taking it to court.

 

The DoSomething.org link provides some great ideas. She will likely need an alternate assignment if she wants to maintain her grade.

 

My mom sent in a note that I was sick on the day of the fetal pig dissection. It wasn't for animal rights reasons: I was a fainter, and even the frog had pushed my limits. The school had poor responses to my fainting. (After a discussion of Civil War medicine :D I had fainted upstairs in the sixth grade classroom. They *walked* me down to the nurses station, I fainted again on the stairs, fell down the half flight, then vomited in the middle of the downstairs hall. :001_huh:) My dh handled the dissections in our homeschool. ;) Anyway, that was before a lot of people opted out, so I think I flew under the radar, but I just had to complete the worksheet they had filled in during the dissection, and I used a book at the library.

[clarkacademy]

I am angry if they took her choice by not offering her another activity. They don't offer and threaten her with lower grades etc. I put her in public school I did not sign her over. She is a good girl she does what she is told and would flip if she got low grades so of course she followed along. I am mad at the school and I am mad at me. I should have raised her better than to just accept something she thinks is wrong.

[Dmmetler]

There is a great virtual frog dissection app for the iPad. Honestly, it's more vivid and shows more than the actual frog does-and doesn't require a dead animal.

[Gingerbread Mama]

There is a great virtual frog dissection app for the iPad. Honestly, it's more vivid and shows more than the actual frog does-and doesn't require a dead animal.

 

I think I've seen that same one, and also ones for a pig/earthworm/something else?, on our Kindle Fires. So, they have Android apps for the same, as well.

 

I can't believe in this day and age, with all the virtual programs and lifelike models available, they are forcing a real dissection. I don't see anything wrong with it, if you want to do it, but it seems silly to demand one.

[lewelma]

I personally think that dissection is a educational carry over from an era where anatomy and physiology were the focus of Biology. Now, the focus of Biology is cell biology, genetics, biochemistry, ecology, evolution, environmental science, etc.

 

Clearly, dissection will turn your dd off of biology, completely. It is ridiculous to require her to do it. I would suggest that she needs to do some other learning activity to replace it, be it a research report or a virtual dissection with personal drawings, etc. She also will need to be able to answer any questions on the anatomy of the frog during exam time.

 

IMHO dissections do not help students understand the scientific method, because there is no experiment being done. There is no hypothesis. It is a technique lab which trains the student to understand how to move slowly and carefully and how to observe and record. There are many, many other ways to achieve those outcomes.

 

I am not against dissections (I am running fish dissections at the science fair this year). But I am against making it a strict requirement with letter grade consequences.

 

Biology is a big, wonderful, exciting field. And it makes me very sad that she will never know that, because this experience will overshadow everything else. :sad:

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited May 26, 2012 by lewelma

[Farrar]

I was a bit of an animal rights nut in high school (not anymore) and I refused both the fetal pig in basic biology and the cat in anatomy class and was given alternate assignments. I would contact the school and really push them on it and bandy about terms like moral objection and so forth. My guess is that they'll step back.

 

However, I do want to point out that if your dd eats meat - specifically pork - then the fetal pig is actually a meat waste product and not being killed for the purposes of dissection. Just added information.

[tntgoodwin]

When I was in high school, our grades would definitetly be affected if we did not do an assignment.

We disected a pig, a lamb brain, a frog, etc.

[JennyD]

I refused both the fetal pig in basic biology and the cat in anatomy class

 

Not to distract from the OP's original situation, but your high school was clearly better than mine. There was one biology class (no advanced options) and the dissection was an earthworm.

[Farrar]

Not to distract from the OP's original situation, but your high school was clearly better than mine. There was one biology class (no advanced options) and the dissection was an earthworm.

 

The crazy part is that advanced anatomy class was a bit of a loser option for less sciencey people. Yes, it was a very good public high school - one of the best in the state at the time.

 

The funny part is that I'm sort of looking forward to dissections with my kids... But we'll probably stick with things like earthworms for the foreseeable future.

[LostSurprise]

I think dissection really gives one a full idea of how the body works. The body is not flat. These things are not layered over each other the way they show it in a book.

 

However, I think forcing dissection is silly. In our high school you were sent to another room with another assignment. Dissections were also done in pairs so one person could do all of the cutting and the other take the notes.

 

Our instructor even did an earthworm himself and let the class get as close or as far away as they were comfortable before introducing the idea of doing something ourselves. That helped me. I wasn't sure how I would feel.

 

In college we dissected a fetal pig. Anatomy did a cat. If you didn't like it you didn't take the class.

[lewelma]

The worst I ever did was a LIVE rat in university. We had to pith them and then stake them down alive but unconscious. The idea was that you would be able to see the heart beating and the blood moving. However, the Teaching Assistants apparently did not know what they were doing because all of the rats "woke up" after having been half dissected. And I still remember the screeching sounds and the animals trying desperately to escape the pins through their paws with their chests wide open and pinned down.:ack2: :eek::scared: Finally, they all died one by one.

 

Ruth

[clarkacademy]

The worst I ever did was a LIVE rat in university. We had to pith them and then stake them down alive but unconscious. The idea was that you would be able to see the heart beating and the blood moving. However, the Teaching Assistants apparently did not know what they were doing because all of the rats "woke up" after having been half dissected. And I still remember the screeching sounds and the animals trying desperately to escape the pins through their paws with their chests wide open and pinned down.:ack2: :eek::scared: Finally, they all died one by one.

 

Ruth

 

That is the cruelest most disgusting thing I have heard of. I would never participate in anything like that and neither would a child of mine. I don't care what reasoning is given it is nothing but plain and simple cruelty. This is nothing more than an example of how cruel the human race is. Unless you were able to find the cure for cancer this is horrible. There is no reason to do anything like this.

 

I would have had nightmares for years to come. How anyone can be so cold hearted to do something like this and then carry on is disgusting.

[SunnyDays]

Oh, Lewelma, that's terrible!! I would have been devastated by that experience.

 

I didn't take biology in high school. Both a bug collection and a frog dissection were required, and I was not looking forward to either one. So I skipped it and took chemistry and physics, which still gave me three years of science. Plenty for college admissions when you don't want to go into a science field. :)

 

OP, I'm so sorry your daughter had to go through that. How did it go for her??

[clarkacademy]

Oh, Lewelma, that's terrible!! I would have been devastated by that experience.

 

I didn't take biology in high school. Both a bug collection and a frog dissection were required, and I was not looking forward to either one. So I skipped it and took chemistry and physics, which still gave me three years of science. Plenty for college admissions when you don't want to go into a science field. :)

 

OP, I'm so sorry your daughter had to go through that. How did it go for her??

 

 

They did not get to pick partners and the person who was teamed up with her was happy to do all the work. I guess it worked out all right but the whole things still ticks me off that she was suppose to be offered an alternatives with no penalization and it didn't happen.

 

I called the school board questioning them and they had 6 different people listen to me put me on hold until finally some guy tried to answer me and all he could say is he didn't know anything. When I brought up the choice law I read about he asked for my number to call me back. He never did. Monday is Labor Day and I bet I don't hear back next week either.

 

It makes me so mad like I said before I put her in school I didn't sign her over. I hate the public school but it offers things for her that I just can't do at home.

[eloquacious]

So I don't have the time to read through the whole thread, but here is my $.02

 

When I was a freshman in an American high school (all subsequent years were in Germany), I took an honors Biology class. During the fourth term, we were given the opportunity to accelerate as quickly as we wanted through the chapters, as long as we submitted a test, a quiz, and a lab for each one. My best friend and I, (who was my only real academic competitor) finished the book. We were the only ones, and we put down one chapter a day. We'd read/study it at home at night, then take the test and quiz during class. Each day our teacher allowed us to stay after to complete the lab.

 

The only catch? I was a vegetarian, and morally opposed to dissections. Halfway through the chapters, the "labs" switched to being dissections. I knew that eventually I'd have to do a frog, and I told my teacher that I wanted to opt out. He basically told me that I could opt out, but would I be willing to do just one dissection - an earth worm?

 

I agreed to do the earthworm, and let me tell you... I was hooked. I don't recall everything we did, there were ten or so before we got to the frog. I remember a fish and a starfish. We never did a mammal because the fetal pig was reserved for another class. Perhaps a mammal might have caused me to hesitate, but overall, I can say that despite my fervent protestations, I loved every minute of it. It stank, it was gooey, and yes, they were dead animals, but I was so much a science geek (or all around geek) that I was fascinated by all that I learned.

 

The only dissection I did not enjoy was two years later, when we did a cow's eye in my German Biology class. It wasn't so much the eye as that it squirted juices on me when I cut into it, though. ;)

[lewelma]

That is the cruelest most disgusting thing I have heard of.

Yes, it was. After that I joined an animal-rights group for a couple of years, went vegetarian, and refused a lucrative summer job (when I needed the money) because it required that I decapitate numerous mice every week - and this was research for curing AIDS so it did have a purpose.

 

I also think the experience helped lead me to enter the subfields of ecology and conservation biology. Helping animals and ecosystems for their own sake rather than using them to further human interests.

 

I would never participate in anything like that

I was young and foolish and easily led. No longer.

 

I would have had nightmares for years to come.

yup. I can still see it.

 

Oh, Lewelma, that's terrible!! I would have been devastated by that experience.

 

Thank you for your empathy.

 

Ruth

Edited May 26, 2012 by lewelma

[eloquacious]

The worst I ever did was a LIVE rat in university. We had to pith them and then stake them down alive but unconscious. The idea was that you would be able to see the heart beating and the blood moving. However, the Teaching Assistants apparently did not know what they were doing because all of the rats "woke up" after having been half dissected. And I still remember the screeching sounds and the animals trying desperately to escape the pins through their paws with their chests wide open and pinned down.:ack2: :eek::scared: Finally, they all died one by one.

 

Ruth

 

Oh. My. Wow.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd have fainted and woken up in a mental institution. I can't imagine your fortitude, to come through such an experience!

[angel marie]

I am a nurse major. Those dissections still come to mind when I think of where all the organs are in the body when taking care of patients. It was invaluable---much better than just seeing a diagram etc... AND if you aren't going into the medical field, it's still a great thing to know when taking care of kids or wondering what's going on with yourself.

 

Some schools let students do virtual dissections if they can't tolerate, but nothing like the real thing.

Angel

[clarkacademy]

In our homeschool we have done a shark. I didn't have an issue with the assignment it was the way it was treated. She should have been offered an alternative and she should not have been threatened about it. I don't see how any frog or worm could be helpful in knowing the human body but thats just me. I don't like feeling as if my daughter was bullied. In her lifetime there will be many things she won't have a choice, but here she had one and they took it from her by basically lieing and that pisses me off.

[mom2scouts]

I'm very interested in alternatives to dissection of dead animals. My son is an animal lover who seems likely to go into a science/biology based career. However, even the thought of dissection is very disturbing to him. I know that he may not have much choice in college, but I would like to have an excellent way to teach biology without scaring him away from the field. I looked at some of the virtual labs and they seem very good and reasonably priced. Honestly, I think that killing animals for dissection is a waste for the average high school student. Most people never have much use for the information and I'm not sure how much is really learned by most students.

[Kathryn]

The worst I ever did was a LIVE rat in university. We had to pith them and then stake them down alive but unconscious. The idea was that you would be able to see the heart beating and the blood moving. However, the Teaching Assistants apparently did not know what they were doing because all of the rats "woke up" after having been half dissected. And I still remember the screeching sounds and the animals trying desperately to escape the pins through their paws with their chests wide open and pinned down.:ack2: :eek::scared: Finally, they all died one by one.

 

Ruth

 

:( I don't think I could have handled that. I would have walked out. Or ran.

[Dmmetler]

We did a frog in our homeschool group science lab. I was surprised at how well DD7, who LOVES reptiles and amphibians and has herpetologist on her short list of possible professions, took it. She loves the virtual frog program on my iPad, but it was just more real seeing it in person. She was also the one in her lab group who was able to read the instructions and follow them to "locate frogenstein's brain" (as she put it-yes, she's a Phineas and Ferb fan). I was really surprised that she was able to cope because she can't read any book/story where animals are hurt or abused, even if it comes out alright in the end. I've had to seriously adapt some of the SL core books because of that.

 

Our group had both an elementary and a middle school class going at the same time, and both groups came together and did the dissections. The elementary kids (in groups of 3-4, with a parent with each group), were very focused and followed the directions, carefully finding and removing organs, writing up their notes, talking about what they saw, and just generally were into the process like little scientists. They seemed very respectful of the frogs, if that makes any sense. The middle schoolers were joking around and acting silly, cutting off body parts for the sake of trying to gross each other out, and generally made me feel like THEIR poor frogs had died in vain, because they probably didn't learn much.

 

I do have to say, I'm glad next year is Earth/Space science!

[Kathryn]

We did a frog in our homeschool group science lab. I was surprised at how well DD7, who LOVES reptiles and amphibians and has herpetologist on her short list of possible professions, took it. She loves the virtual frog program on my iPad, but it was just more real seeing it in person. She was also the one in her lab group who was able to read the instructions and follow them to "locate frogenstein's brain" (as she put it-yes, she's a Phineas and Ferb fan). I was really surprised that she was able to cope because she can't read any book/story where animals are hurt or abused, even if it comes out alright in the end. I've had to seriously adapt some of the SL core books because of that.

 

Our group had both an elementary and a middle school class going at the same time, and both groups came together and did the dissections. The elementary kids (in groups of 3-4, with a parent with each group), were very focused and followed the directions, carefully finding and removing organs, writing up their notes, talking about what they saw, and just generally were into the process like little scientists. They seemed very respectful of the frogs, if that makes any sense. The middle schoolers were joking around and acting silly, cutting off body parts for the sake of trying to gross each other out, and generally made me feel like THEIR poor frogs had died in vain, because they probably didn't learn much.

 

I do have to say, I'm glad next year is Earth/Space science!

 

We didn't do it in elementary school, but I recall the boys' shenanigans in our 7th grade dissections. We did earthworms, starfish, crayfish, and frogs (I think that's all) that year. The boys acted as you said, and did things like take out the frogs' eyes and throw them around the room. When we did fetal pigs in 19th grade most of them had matured. And by my college biology courses, it wasn't a problem. I don't think middle school was the time for expecting maturity.

[angel marie]

I'm very interested in alternatives to dissection of dead animals. My son is an animal lover who seems likely to go into a science/biology based career. However, even the thought of dissection is very disturbing to him. I know that he may not have much choice in college, but I would like to have an excellent way to teach biology without scaring him away from the field. I looked at some of the virtual labs and they seem very good and reasonably priced. Honestly, I think that killing animals for dissection is a waste for the average high school student. Most people never have much use for the information and I'm not sure how much is really learned by most students.

 

I had issues with this too. I checked into where the animals were coming from. THe companies where ours' came from didn't kill the animals just for the sake of dissection. We had quite a few discussions about this and it came down to- if the animals had to be put to sleep or had died- at least there is something good coming out of their death--us gaining knowledge to hopefully one day help someone or something that is still alive. We also spoke about respect for God's creations and treating them this way when we were dissecting. NO joking or poking or doing anything that was disrespectful to the animals.

I am a nurse. This was the only exposure I had to learning what it actually looked like inside bodies before I actually was able to work in a hospital. Medical school is usually the only place for cadavers. The rest of us have to get where we can. Learning this was a huge help to me. Virtual dissections are an option, but it's not the same as the real thing. Hope this helps.

[Tarreymere]

I didn't find dissections at all helpful despite going to college for nursing and working as an Rn. We had to do a frog and a fetal pig in high school, and a cat in nursing school. I thought all of them were really really nasty and I did NOT learn anything useful at all. Except maybe that cutting up dead things is really gross, but nothing that was at all helpful to me in my nursing career. Dissection is disgusting. I'm glad someone else went in there and found out what kind of insides humans have, but I don't think we need to force kids to cut anything up in the name of science.

[Malory]

The worst I ever did was a LIVE rat in university. We had to pith them and then stake them down alive but unconscious. The idea was that you would be able to see the heart beating and the blood moving. However, the Teaching Assistants apparently did not know what they were doing because all of the rats "woke up" after having been half dissected. And I still remember the screeching sounds and the animals trying desperately to escape the pins through their paws with their chests wide open and pinned down.:ack2: :eek::scared: Finally, they all died one by one.

 

Ruth

 

We did live dissection in seventh grade. Every group had to catch/buy its own frog and fish from around the house (this was in Asia) and bring them to school. Nobody knew what he was doing. I had the same exact thing happen, the frog woke up half open and jumped up because it wasn't staked down enough. Eventually we got it back down and saw its heart beating. I had been dreading doing dissection with my kids until a few weeks ago when I learned that dissection here is done on a dead, sterilized animal.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Malory
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