Almost 16 and has cussed at me twice lately...

[BMW]

Putting your foot down here is likely only going to continue whatever dysfunctional family dance you've been engaged in for years. It hasn't worked yet, likely it won't work this time either. 

 

Albeto, I believe you are out of line. You do not know me and are not addressing my WWYD question. I have been participating on this board for over 10 years, homeschooled many of those years, shared openly some ups and downs.

 

We all have ups and downs. When you have 11 children, you are going to run into a LOT of issues over many years. I have many success stories to share and am quite satisfied with myself and where I am at on most days.

 

I will say, to the general population here at TWTM that if I could do it over again, I would not blend a family after a divorce. Nope. But it is done and I must put my best foot forward every day and stick to my vow because I am only as good as my word. My husband is not abusive, he adores me, he errs on the side of grace and I've learned a lot from him. I err on the side of punishment and he learns from me. We have hit a bumpy time with this son recently and those of you following know we've had quite a run with another. That however does not detract from our beautiful successes and healthy family times.

 

Enough said.

 

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the comments and considerations. I will not be returning the xbox until respect is given for a long bit of time... Period. Dh knows that and says he will support it. Done.

 

Tampamommy, I agree! Our words are our display of our character, which is what I am working on addressing. Thanks for the hug!

 

PS Did I just show that I am trying to stand up for myself when needed?:) I have always had a gentle, submissive nature, but I tell you the past decade has sure taught me to not be as needed...

[TranquilMind]

Heather in NC: My ds turns 14 this week. He has never spoken like that. He has never even cussed around me much less at me. If he did, and my dh was not there to handle it, I would simply smile and go about my business because when my dh got home, whether it was that day or a week later, he would take my ds to the woodshed and take care of business. And my dh is a big man.

 

What does this mean? Is he going to spank a 14 year old boy? Hit him? Give him chores? What?

 

 

He will not let ANYONE disrespect his wife including his own son. While my ds has never cussed at me, he HAS spoken quite disrespectfully to me and I DID slap his face just like I said I would and I don't care what anyone thinks of me for it. My son's reaction? He apologized for the way he spoke.

 

Well, you have a different child than I do. I would not get this reaction.

 

 

I WAS the rebellious teen and I DID say that same phrase to my mother at that same age and my father was not at home. What did she do? She slapped me across the face, hard. Then she made me wait a YEAR longer to get my driver's license (It happened right before I was supposed to start driver's ed. She refused to pay for the classes and made me wait until the following summer). I can tell you that I NEVER spoke like that to her again.

 

If I slap hard, it is not going to go well.

 

And I need a surgery, most likely, and am not in top form.

 

However, your second idea about making her wait a year for a driver's license is intriguing. We are exactly at that point this summer. Of course the fact that it worked for your Mom 20 years ago does not mean it will work for me today, except that I do think a parental signature is required.

Edited May 24, 2012 by TranquilMind

[Joanne]

It is interesting to observe the ages of the children of the parents in this thread and the corresponding opinions.

 

*Some* things require a BTDT. OP, I HAVE an acting out 17 year old male. Boy, when I had parenting theories, standards, and ideas, I was certain that none of MY kids would do what this one has done.

 

But, honestly? If I take responsibility for his choices, do I then get credit for the good, kind, and respectful choices of the other 2? Nope. That's not how it works.

 

Parenting, and outcomes, and especially kids in transition into early adulthood are complex. There is not a linear progression from bad parenting to bad kid or good parenting to good kid.

 

What CAN you do with an acting out, disrespectful teen? Not much.

 

Yea, I said it. From the poster who has been posting about parenting for years, and even has some credentials to back it up. You can't do much to stop them.

 

Hitting them is ridiculous and demeaning for everyone involved.

 

"Finding their currency" is simply something TO DO while you wait for the next event. In the end, there is not going to be a correlation of improved behavior and stripping them of their space.

 

You can offer minimal personal errands, care, and support. But for a kid who just admitted he doesn't give a flip about you *anyway*, it will just reinforce his feelings and justify the next outburt in his head.

 

Sometimes life and parenting is messy. Sometimes growing humans act out. Sometimes there is not a way to 1) prevent it 2) solve it.

 

If you can keep the kid alive, with minimal drama added *to* this stage, it's very possible they will grow up and not be an Sociopath. So, the real remedy is time and maturity. And you don't have control over either of them, really.

 

So, make your days the best you can for you. Keep you and the others safe. Do assert standards of acceptability, and don't go above and beyond for the acting out kid. But don't expect immediate change for the better.

 

I wish I had an easier fix. Can't someone post about a toddler hitting, biting, or a 6 year old not wanting to read?

[Barb_]

It is interesting to observe the ages of the children of the parents in this thread and the corresponding opinions.

 

*Some* things require a BTDT. OP, I HAVE an acting out 17 year old male. Boy, when I had parenting theories, standards, and ideas, I was certain that none of MY kids would do what this one has done.

 

:grouphug: You don't need that on top of everything else. As you probably remember I've been there too. We're over the worst of it, but there is a lot of residual emotional fallout. The best you can do in the midst of the thing is to protect your own psyche.

[Unicorn.]

I think you handled it perfectly. And may I add that I'm extremely impressed that you got a teen boy to sit and talk (or listen) to you for a whole hour! :) I think for them that's the worst punishment ever! :lol:

[Halftime Hope]

I think the language is the least of your concern. The words are a manifestation of the attitude Honestly, we swear a lot in this house. They're just words, never weapons. In your house maybe, but not in hers. The kid's words were absolutely a weapon. Putting your foot down here is likely only going to continue whatever dysfunctional family dance you've been engaged in for years. It hasn't worked yet, likely it won't work this time either. Wrong. She needs to put her foot down and draw a healthy boundary for herself and for his future relationships.

 

I'm sorry. I hope you can figure out how to get along.

I agree with the last part.

[Ruby Rose]

First I'd talk to him and ask what made him think he could treat me that way. Then I'd ask him if he thought I deserved an apology. If a heart felt apology and 180 attitude change didn't come then I would cut the power to his room, and completely ignore him. I'd make meals for the family and not call him for dinner. I'd make him fend for himself until he started respecting me and appreciating what I do for him.

[5kidsforME]

 

 

WWYD? (regarding the son, not the father, please)

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the problem is the dad. He knows dad won't go to bat for you...that is HUGE! Huge. Not sure what you should do.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Momto4kids

[KidsHappen]

Oh my goodness, at my house something like that would start a brawl. If all of my kids were home at the same time and anyone said anything like that to me, this is how it would go: I would slap said child like I meant it (this is not theoretical it is historical and I am not proud of this it is just an automatic response on my part), my hubby would jump between me and said child simultaneously trying to yell at said child and protect them from me and the oldest two would definitely start yelling at whoever was responsible. It is quite possible that the oldest dd would slap said child as well if she happened to be closer than I was. Now, I know this makes it sound like a whole lot of craziness going on but in actuality this has only happened a few times and never with the same child more than once. I have slapped mouths before and my hubby and oldest two have definitely raised their voices at the youngers just for giving me a hard time or being less than perfectly respectable towards me. On the other hand, me and the BP dd have had some toe to toe matches that went until the last man standing and no one gets in on those. It would be like trying to referee a nuclear war (we try not to both miss our meds on the same day :001_smile:).

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I have never been in this situation, and I hope I never am

[Liz CA]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I would have engaged. My temper wouldn't have stood for that.

 

Yes, this would have had serious consequences. Sounds like he is somewhat angry and frustrated. Have you talked about house rules? Would dad support you in this? If Dad puts his foot down, does he have more respect? Sounds like he knows he can get away with certain things because Dad is tolerating it and you cannot enforce certain consequences.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Liz CA

[EmilyK]

Eliana, I think that's the best thing I've ever read here.

[Laura Corin]

No way! He would INSTANTLY lose everything! Including his door to his bedroom.

 

Just a mattress on the floor with sheets, one pair of pants, one shirt, one pair of underwear. That's it. Everything else would have to be earned back.

 

Ugh. I wish you luck. This is a big deal.

Hot Lava Mama

 

I think that moving further into an adversarial relationship is not going to help. What is missing here is a workable family relationship of mutual respect: pushing it to this extreme is going to force the child away emotionally, not bring him back.

 

With every dispute with Calvin I ask myself: where is this taking our relationship and his future behaviour? If he had behaved like the OP's child, that would definitely be serious and require punishment. Even more it would require talking through (as the OP subsequently did) the basis of the relationship and thinking through how to move forward.

 

Laura

[Joanne]

Since you've found a resolution that feels satisfying to you, I hope describing my own reactions doesn't come across as critical.

 

I had an enormous revelation at one point in parenting teens: struggling for "control" is missing the point. ...and the really counterintuitive thing is that the less I have tried to maintain "control" over my teens, the more they have worked to meet our expectations of them.

 

It is very hard in the intensity of the moment to remember my long term parenting goals, but it has been very powerful in my relationships with my teenagers - to be mindful of our goals, and of which approaches really support those goals, and which are short term patches that are, in the longer term, counter productive.

 

I am tired, and frazzled, so the rest of this is going to be a bit disordered, I'm sorry!

 

Imo, obedience comes out of trust... and love.

 

If my kids don't believe, with absolute certainty, that they have my unconditional love, that I think they are wonderful people with amazing potential, and that what I require of them comes from my love for them and belief in them, then all the rules and consequences in the world will not result in true obedience. (and, of course, they can believe that 2000% and if I don't establish clear expectations, boundaries, and show that I mean them, then I loose their trust in a whole 'nother way...)

 

I believe, passionately, that when there is a breakdown in a parent-child relationship, that the highest priority isn't ruthlessly clamping down on the symptoms, it is repairing the relationship.

 

I also believe that the only person I can "control" is myself, but that when I change my patterns in a relationship, I can transform the relationship... and I've found that to be dramatically true with my kids.

 

In your situation, I would want to be working very hard to build connection with my son - finding ways to reflect back to him his best and truest self... to show him the ways in which he is wonderful... to convey my belief in his potential. (And his cooperation in your most recent conversation gives you a great starting place!)

 

I would want to start finding ways to reward the positive rather than punish the negative (frex reward punctuality rather than punish tardiness; I don't mean allowing abusive speech which praising nice words!) ...the consequence is the absence of positive reinforcement... and the emotional energy (which, positive or negative, is practically addictive for kids) is focused on the behaviors I want to reinforce.

 

For those of you with harsh impulses, but younger kids:

 

1) the goal of the teen years is transitioning to adulthood... including learning how to have healthy relationships. Slapping their face, pulling out all the stops to control them, withholding parental involvement... none of those forward my long term goals... they are all focused on maintaining control *now*, which is sometimes, in some moments, the best we can do with the tools/situations we have... but it isn't the real goal.

 

2) Focusing on relationship means my kids, even once they are 18, care about my expectations of them, they are still willing to turn to me for support and guidance... because they trust me... and one of the things they trust is that I am not trying to control them, I am trying to support them in becoming their best and truest selves... that we are on the same team.

 

I have so much more I want to say, but I am already losing coherence!

 

Honey, my heart ached for you reading your post. I hope you can find joy again in your relationship with your son - teens can be hard, but they can also be such treasures! ...and, despite all his challenges, I am sure your son is a gem... under the anger and the pain and the bad habits. And I hope you can find ways to build your connection to him and keep holding him accountable and help him become the amazing young man he has the potential to be!

 

Eliana,

 

Your post is beautiful. This situation, however, is a *step*son and the Dad is passive. In addition, the family has new dynamics around a different, but acting out, child.

 

I agree with you in theory (as you know, I am not harsh or punitive minded in parenting) but I doubt that the level of trust and connection you suggest is attainable for the OP.

[BMW]

Eliana,

Thank you for taking the time to share with me. My stepson does love positive reinforcement and I have often used that in the past working with him so that is a great reminder to me! He and I had some good moments last night as he did the chores and we decided that we would go out, just the two of us, at least once a month to connect more often and to build our relationship.

 

Looking at it after a night's sleep I think that I was being picky with him and the "why" I was being picky is what is important and will need to be addressed with son in our times together. Son regularly acts out as if my wishes do not matter in the least (remember he said he really didn't care if I was here or not). Taking responsibility for myself in this... how would things have been different had I spoken softly (I never was raising my voice, but to make my voice softer) and ask him differently to begin with... anyway I don't know if this is making sense, but I can work on myself and how I come across to him and try to make our daily life situations a building experience...

 

**Yet, in no way am I saying that I deserved the abusive language. I believe that is coming partly from video games and public school and also from hearing men at the marina talk that way. I know dh uses some cuss words out at the boat and out fishing UNLESS I am there. He sets a good example of respecting me as his wife in not cussing at home or if I am at the boat. Anyway... time to build relationships! Good morning everyone!

Edited May 24, 2012 by BMW

[KS_]

 

I believe, passionately, that when there is a breakdown in a parent-child relationship, that the highest priority isn't ruthlessly clamping down on the symptoms, it is repairing the relationship.

 

I also believe that the only person I can "control" is myself, but that when I change my patterns in a relationship, I can transform the relationship... and I've found that to be dramatically true with my kids.

 

 

 

 

I agree - I've found this very true in my relationship with my dc, but especially in changing (for the better) my relationship with my ds. However, it is often extremely difficult to remember sometimes in the heat of the moment, when everyone is out of sorts. And ds even admitted that he had a huge change of heart when he realized that I really did love him, even when he wasn't nice or being good. He said that changed the way he viewed things and acted. But I don't have step-kids, and that brings a whole 'nother dynamic into play.

[OLG]

It's amazing what positive effects "catching them doing good'" has on the male species of any age. That's all. I truly sympathize with the OP and it sounds like she has a good gripe on the whole situation.

[Shellydon]

Easy to say you'd be tough and take privileges when it isn't happening to you.

 

But honestly, what CAN one actually do today? The kid is probably a foot bigger than her by this point, I'm guessing, if she's an average size Mom. From some kids, you can take every single thing legally permissible, and that kid will just up the ante...refuse meals, leave home, go call CPS and claim abuse.

 

Seriously, all the tough talkers -of which I once was one - what do you and can you ACTUALLY do when you get to this point that the kid is doing this.

 

I used to say, "Why, I'd knock my kid into next week if she ever....(fill in the blank)."

 

Well, she did (not this particular thing the OP mentions, but equal things). I didn't knock her into next week, tempting as it would be to get a week off.

 

So, while I'd like to hear what the OP actually did, I'd also like to hear what all those saying what they would do -or especially if they faced it and DID do something - tell me! All ears.

 

 

When my dad was growing up, my grandfather carried a bullwhip and was very adept at using it (he had polio and could not run, so he could wrap it around their feet to stop the kids from running away etc.). If any of the three boys mouthed off, they were punished with the bullwhip. Dad said it only took once and you never cussed out your parents again.

[Joanne]

When my dad was growing up, my grandfather carried a bullwhip and was very adept at using it (he had polio and could not run, so he could wrap it around their feet to stop the kids from running away etc.). If any of the three boys mouthed off, they were punished with the bullwhip. Dad said it only took once and you never cussed out your parents again.

 

And all that punitive and abusive parenting didn't stop children/teens from still "needing" discipline. If it worked to stop disrespect and moments of poor choices, a whip at some point would not be needed.

 

Yet the abused boys still mouthed off, yes?

[elegantlion]

I sat the boy down and made him sit, feet forward, paying attention and interacting during the discussion...

 

We went over the scenario... he had to admit, in his own words, that it was his responsibility to clean up after himself and that he overreacted. He gave some excuses for the speech problem, but realized that it simply was inexcusable.

 

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug: Sounds like a step in the right direction.

[Kelly1730]

Vile language = "just words?"

 

Hmmm...

 

Then would it be acceptable to talk like that to an employer?

 

How about a policeman?

 

How about a judge?

 

How about a college admissions officer who is going to decide whether or not you're accepted?

 

How about the bank personnel when you apply for a mortgage?

 

Our culture likes to believe profanity is "just words." In reality, our language reflects not only our education and our vocabulary level, but more importantly, who we really are - our real character.

 

:grouphug: to the OP.

 

:iagree:

[Free]

If you can keep the kid alive, with minimal drama added *to* this stage, it's very possible they will grow up and not be an Sociopath. So, the real remedy is time and maturity. And you don't have control over either of them, really.

Such wise words....I should remember this.

[Marylou]

 

**Yet, in no way am I saying that I deserved the abusive language. I believe that is coming partly from video games and public school and also from hearing men at the marina talk that way. I know dh uses some cuss words out at the boat and out fishing UNLESS I am there. He sets a good example of respecting me as his wife in not cussing at home or if I am at the boat. Anyway... time to build relationships! Good morning everyone!

 

I could be wrong, but I would bet some of the music coming out of those headphones into his head might be a factor, too.

[Shellydon]

And all that punitive and abusive parenting didn't stop children/teens from still "needing" discipline. If it worked to stop disrespect and moments of poor choices, a whip at some point would not be needed.

 

Yet the abused boys still mouthed off, yes?

 

 

No, they each only mouthed off once so the whip was rarely needed. It DID work, quite well. Dad said that you really and truly thought through your choices. If you were going to choose to do something that was wrong, it had better be really worth it because you knew that you'd get disciplined for it. None of the boys would have called their upbringing abusive at all.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

No, they each only mouthed off once so the whip was rarely needed. It DID work, quite well. Dad said that you really and truly thought through your choices. If you were going to choose to do something that was wrong, it had better be really worth it because you knew that you'd get disciplined for it. None of the boys would have called their upbringing abusive at all.

 

If whipping a minor with a farm implement intended for bulls is not abusive then the word has no meaning.

[Shellydon]

If whipping a minor with a farm implement intended for bulls is not abusive then the word has no meaning.

 

 

It didn't leave permanent marks. It wasn't nearly has severe as the beating that was written about in Farmer Boy.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I used to help my Grandpa make whips. We braided leather with 4, 7, 9, or 16 strands. I wasn't very old and could only manage the 4-strand kind, but Grandpa made great big whips.

 

My Grandpa was a hard man. I once watched him break a man's jaw with one blow of his mighty fist. I then watched him drive the man to the hospital and pay all the bills, and then provide the rent and groceries for the man's wife and kids for a month by way of apology. He was from a very tough time, place, and mindset, and sadly prone to brawling with his adult enemies, but even he would have never used one of his whips on a human, especially not his sons or grandsons. Whips are for animals when necessary.

 

Here's a bullwhip:

 

Reason with the child, lay down the law, draw boundary lines and enforce them. Call the police. Kick him out if you must, send him to reform school or to live with a relative if you can't manage him, but don't strike another human with a bullwhip.

[Nakia]

No, they each only mouthed off once so the whip was rarely needed. It DID work, quite well. Dad said that you really and truly thought through your choices. If you were going to choose to do something that was wrong, it had better be really worth it because you knew that you'd get disciplined for it. None of the boys would have called their upbringing abusive at all.

 

Are you talking about the whips that are used in rodeos? Actual whips used on cows/bulls? Oh my.

[Shellydon]

And all that punitive and abusive parenting didn't stop children/teens from still "needing" discipline. If it worked to stop disrespect and moments of poor choices, a whip at some point would not be needed.

 

Yet the abused boys still mouthed off, yes?

 

No, they each only mouthed off once so the whip was rarely needed. It DID work, quite well. Dad said that you really and truly thought through your choices. If you were going to choose to do something that was wrong, it had better be really worth it because you knew that you'd get disciplined for it. None of the boys would have called their upbringing abusive at all.

 

If whipping a minor with a farm implement intended for bulls is not abusive then the word has no meaning.

 

It didn't leave permanent marks. It wasn't nearly has severe as the beating that was written about in Farmer Boy.

 

 

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

[Shellydon]

I used to help my Grandpa make whips. We braided leather with 4, 7, 9, or 16 strands. I wasn't very old and could only manage the 4-strand kind, but Grandpa made great big whips.

 

My Grandpa was a hard man. I once watched him break a man's jaw with one blow of his mighty fist. I then watched him drive the man to the hospital and pay all the bills, and then provide the rent and groceries for the man's wife and kids for a month by way of apology. He was from a very tough time, place, and mindset, and sadly prone to brawling with his adult enemies, but even he would have never used one of his whips on a human, especially not his sons or grandsons. Whips are for animals when necessary.

 

Here's a bullwhip:

 

Reason with the child, lay down the law, draw boundary lines and enforce them. Call the police. Kick him out if you must, send him to reform school or to live with a relative if you can't manage him, but don't strike another human with a bullwhip.

 

Have you read Farmer Boy? When the teacher is being attacked by a three teen boys, he uses the whip you have pictured stop the attack. He beats all three boys until they are bloody (versus my grandfather who never drew blood). You think he should have submitted to being beaten and killed himself rather than use a whip on a human?

[Soror]

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

 

There have been many changes in society, physical punishment is only a small fraction of all that has changed. I think it is easy to say that is the sole cause because then we can feel like as long as we do that everything is just going to be fine but there is no clear causation. I worked w/ juvenile delinquents most of them were physically punished, often in ways you described, certainly didn't help them.

 

Of course they were also often from broken homes and the victims of various kinds of abuse. There was often drug and alcohol abuse around. They were often from poverty. They didn't have strong family support of values. They were often left to fend for themselves and exposed to things inappropriate for their age; violence, sex, etc through families, friends, music, movies, games etc. Often they struggled in school due to some learning disabilities. They had a lack of involvment, care, and oversight and the discipline they received wasn't even a blip in the reasons for problems. If anything you could conclude that it caused it. However, I don't recall ever having a child with parents that were Attachment Parent and Gentle Disclipline types.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Have you read Farmer Boy? When the teacher is being attacked by a three teen boys, he uses the whip you have pictured stop the attack. He beats all three boys until they are bloody (versus my grandfather who never drew blood). You think he should have submitted to being beaten and killed himself rather than use a whip on a human?

 

Oh my word. You are comparing apples to oranges. The boys in Farmer Boy were attempting to physically assault that teacher, who defended himself. They were attempting to beat him up to make him fearful and run away, as the other teachers had. They weren't simply calling him names and using naughty words. :001_rolleyes:

[Joanne]

No, they each only mouthed off once so the whip was rarely needed. It DID work, quite well. Dad said that you really and truly thought through your choices. If you were going to choose to do something that was wrong, it had better be really worth it because you knew that you'd get disciplined for it. None of the boys would have called their upbringing abusive at all.

 

Here is the thing. You can't mature a child, or push them into a more advanced developmental stage with punishment. (You can't do it with non punishment, either).

 

Those who were harshly parented have poor logic-reference when they speak of how they were raised. They remember the bullwhip (or plumb line, spanking, etc) and that it WAS USED.

 

But they fail to correlate the reality that if it was USED, the children *misbehaved*. I doubt you can find a family in which a child was punished once time for each departure and the child never behaved that way again. Parenting - punitive or not - just doesn't work that way.

 

Why? Because children are, by Nature and Design, immature creatures will limited impulse control. Punishment doesn't mature them or instill character. It just gives the parents something to *do* while the real remedy works.

 

The real remedy is time. Time in which real maturity emerges, and children master issues of discipline, character, etc.

[ma23peas]

If my 16 year old son said that, he would know quite quickly, that it would never happen again...hard to tell, but it seemed you may not have handled it correctly when it happened...waiting for dh to deal with it...he didn't curse your dh...he has self control....but thinks he can do it with you...that must change.

 

I don't nag...I tell the kids that everything they do should be done with a sense of honor and responsibility (for us, it's to our Lord..which encompasses much...respect your parents, do not be idle, etc.) I won't get after them on every transgression, but if my son pushed cereal to the floor, I would question him..."Son, is that how you would do it if you were at xyz's house?" I think one time my son has cursed, but not at me, he was upset about something and said, sh** I just stopped the conversation and with my hardest mom eyes, "In what world, do you think it is acceptable to use that language ever?" He apologized and has not done it since...but he definitely doesn't get away with it.

[Joanne]

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

 

Not only is this very poor logic, it is not my experience with "teens" today. I have 3, and I teach 50 or so.

[elegantlion]

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

 

Generalize much? As adults if we have conflict are we allowed to beat them? No, it's assault. Teens are not sub-humans who need physical punishment to put them in their place. My teen has never been beat and he has never laid a hand on me or raised his voice to me. We talk through a great many things in great depth. I respect him as a person, in turn I expect respect from him and get it.

 

I absolutely disagree with your last statement. There are awesome people in my generation and the ones that follow. 50 years ago the cancer I had at age 26 had a high mortality rate. I just turned 45 and thanks to quality people I'm still here. I watched October Sky several years ago. The cancer the teacher had and died from was the same kind of cancer I had, only many years later. I burst into tears while reading the credits and realizing it was the same kind.

 

Maybe the above is not relevant, but society isn't falling apart, and it certainly isn't from the lack of physical punishment. The good old days weren't always the good old days.

[Joanne]

Generalize much? As adults if we have conflict are we allowed to beat them? No, it's assault. Teens are not sub-humans who need physical punishment to put them in their place. My teen has never been beat and he has never laid a hand on me or raised his voice to me. We talk through a great many things in great depth. I respect him as a person, in turn I expect respect from him and get it.

 

I absolutely disagree with your last statement. There are awesome people in my generation and the ones that follow. 50 years ago the cancer I had at age 26 had a high mortality rate. I just turned 45 and thanks to quality people I'm still here. I watched October Sky several years ago. The cancer the teacher had and died from was the same kind of cancer I had, only many years later. I burst into tears while reading the credits and realizing it was the same kind.

 

Maybe the above is not relevant, but society isn't falling apart, and it certainly isn't from the lack of physical punishment. The good old days weren't always the good old days.

 

Exaggerated and inaccurate claims about youth are not new:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebiphobia

 

Since this is TWTM, how about some Socrates?

 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/63219

[J-rap]

50 years ago the cancer I had at age 26 had a high mortality rate.

 

I was very confused here and thought it meant that you were now 76! And with such young children! haha :) I did figure it out eventually. So glad you conquered yours, btw.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

 

What metric are you using to determine "society is clearly deteriorating" or that we produced better people 50-100 years ago? Looking back in that time frame, domestic violence, sexism, racial violence, child abuse (and not the sort that you would defend) were all more commonly accepted. Was that really better?

 

Call me crazy, but I actually prefer living in a society where hitting children with whips is not tolerated. Crazy I know, but it's just how I roll.

[elegantlion]

I was very confused here and thought it meant that you were now 76! And with such young children! haha :) I did figure it out eventually. So glad you conquered yours, btw.

 

Should probably have reworded or added punctuation. :lol:

[TranquilMind]

When my dad was growing up, my grandfather carried a bullwhip and was very adept at using it (he had polio and could not run, so he could wrap it around their feet to stop the kids from running away etc.). If any of the three boys mouthed off, they were punished with the bullwhip. Dad said it only took once and you never cussed out your parents again.

 

Try that today and CPS would be at your door, hauling away all your kids.

 

There is no parental authority anymore, except that granted by the child. Even the other posters here are basically saying this with all the "repair the relationship" talk.

[TranquilMind]

My point is that our society has a whole is clearly disintegrating. In the 1940s, very, very few teens would have ever cussed out their mothers. If it happened, the discipline was swift and forceful. Now, we 'talk' to the teen about it, but there is no real punishment and the infraction is repeated over and over. The children from the first have of the century experience more physical discipline and turned into upstanding citizens. Our teens today and turning into moochers that cannot get and keep jobs as young adults. Teen years are extending well into the 20s and sometimes 30s. We are clearly not producing better people in our society that we did 50 or 100 years ago.

 

This part is indisputable, regardless what one thinks about a bull whip.

[Greta]

2. While it (the cussing) has not happened TO me...I WAS the rebellious teen and I DID say that same phrase to my mother at that same age and my father was not at home. What did she do? She slapped me across the face, hard. Then she made me wait a YEAR longer to get my driver's license (It happened right before I was supposed to start driver's ed. She refused to pay for the classes and made me wait until the following summer). I can tell you that I NEVER spoke like that to her again.

 

.

 

 

As much as I hate to admit it, I called my mother a vile name once as a teen. She slapped me across the face. And I never did it again.

 

But you know what? That slap did NOTHING to address the underlying problems. If anything, it just exacerbated them. It changed my behavior, sure. But it didn't change my attitude, except to increase my resentment of her. The problems that had led to it, me wanting to be treated like 26 instead of 16, her treating me like I was 6 instead of 16, were still there, worse than before.

 

I'm not saying that punishment has no place. (Though I do think slapping someone's face is an inappropriate punishment.) But I am saying that punishment alone will not solve the problem. The underlying relationship issues have to be addressed. My mom could have accomplished so much by just spending some time with me. She never took me out to a movie, or to a meal, just the two of us. She never seemed to want to just sit and talk to me, as if she simply enjoyed my company. Our interactions consisted almost entirely of her nagging, disapproving, and bossing me around. Now I am not at all saying that's the case for the OP, or for you! I'm just saying, general "you", that if you give punishment instead of giving the child what s/he actually needs, you may change the behavior, but you haven't healed the relationship.

 

My mom and I have a fantastic relationship now. There have been many apologies, from both of us, and we've rebuilt what was lost. I am very close to her and love her very dearly. But those teen years were rough, and I pulled away for years after moving out of the house. I have not BTDT with my dd yet (she's 12). But I hope that pray that when the time comes, I will see clearly enough to be able to fix what's actually broken, rather than just putting a punishment band-aid on it and thinking I've done all I can.

 

This parenting stuff is so much harder than I thought it would be. :)

[TranquilMind]

The real remedy is time. Time in which real maturity emerges, and children master issues of discipline, character, etc.

 

Yes. If you make it.

 

Even assuming that, sometimes it is NOT the remedy at all. I know one family with 5 kids. The oldest went haywire in her teens and put her parents through hell. Her parents never really recovered and by God, neither did she ever get any better.

 

She's in her late 40's now. Been down the road of drug abuse, had a brain tumor (possibly from all the drugs), has had SIX husbands, and children by 5 different men. It never got better.

[Shellydon]

There have been many changes in society, physical punishment is only a small fraction of all that has changed. I think it is easy to say that is the sole cause because then we can feel like as long as we do that everything is just going to be fine but there is no clear causation. I worked w/ juvenile delinquents most of them were physically punished, often in ways you described, certainly didn't help them.

 

Of course they were also often from broken homes and the victims of various kinds of abuse. There was often drug and alcohol abuse around. They were often from poverty. They didn't have strong family support of values. They were often left to fend for themselves and exposed to things inappropriate for their age; violence, sex, etc through families, friends, music, movies, games etc. Often they struggled in school due to some learning disabilities. They had a lack of involvment, care, and oversight and the discipline they received wasn't even a blip in the reasons for problems. If anything you could conclude that it caused it. However, I don't recall ever having a child with parents that were Attachment Parent and Gentle Disclipline types.

 

 

I would agree with almost all of this. I do think that the AP/Gentle parenting kids are often very disrespectful and self centered (more than their peers)at least as younger children, not sure about teens.

[Shellydon]

Try that today and CPS would be at your door, hauling away all your kids.

 

There is no parental authority anymore, except that granted by the child. Even the other posters here are basically saying this with all the "repair the relationship" talk.

 

 

Right. I would never use a bull whip on my kids, I would hope I would never have the need. BUT, I hate that good parents with strong families are totally bullied by their teens and they have no real recourse other than to unplug a video game.

[aggieamy]

When my dad was growing up, my grandfather carried a bullwhip and was very adept at using it (he had polio and could not run, so he could wrap it around their feet to stop the kids from running away etc.). If any of the three boys mouthed off, they were punished with the bullwhip. Dad said it only took once and you never cussed out your parents again.

 

Oh dear God. A bull whip? That's unexcusable.

[goldberry]

Bee, I think you handled it like a champ. You did address and give consequences for the behavior issue, but you also discussed and are addressing the deeper issues of his feelings for you and your relationship.

 

Bravo...hang in there :grouphug::grouphug:

[goldberry]

 

This parenting stuff is so much harder than I thought it would be. :)

 

 

Amen....

[Greta]

Bee, I think you handled it like a champ. You did address and give consequences for the behavior issue, but you also discussed and are addressing the deeper issues of his feelings for you and your relationship.

 

Bravo...hang in there :grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree: Nicely handled. :thumbup1: