Help! CLE LA placement tests inconclusive. Now what? (Sorry. I got long-winded.)

[ereks mom]

I've been teaching the dd of a friend for 2 years now, grades 6 & 7. She has a reading disability, and on achievement tests, she scores about 2 grade levels behind in reading. Before she came to me, she attended a private school that used ABeka for everything, so she had successfully completed ABeka Language B (5th grade). I was actually a bit surprised at how much grammar she had retained--and that she was pretty good at diagramming.

 

In 6th grade with me, she used R&S English 5, and she HATED it. It was extremely time-consuming (usually an hour a day), I had to sit with her to teach the lesson (very tedious for both of us), and she retained almost nothing. Half the time, she couldn't even pick out the nouns in a sentence. :(

 

This year (7th), I decided to go another route, so I shelved the R&S English 6 that I had bought, and she used Easy Grammar 5/6 daily instead, plus Daily Grams 6 for homework. She did it independently. I didn't have to sit with her. She liked that and I liked that. However, just as with R&S the year before, there is little retention. She makes the same mistakes over and over.

 

So... now it's the end of the school year, and I have to decide what to use for grammar next year (8th grade). I do not want to go back to R&S because it's just too time-consuming. I do want a workbook format because I want something open & go. I will be teaching 3 teenage girls next year (grades 8, 10, & 12) and I won't have an hour or more to spend on grammar for one child every day. But I don't want to go back to Easy Grammar because although it is easy, as the name says, it's simply been ineffective. I think she has actually gone backward in grammar skills this year. :confused:

 

I've been considering ABeka or CLE. ABeka apparently worked pretty well for her before, and I've read a lot of positive things about CLE Language Arts here on the boards. Then I heard about Hake Grammar & Writing, so I looked at it as well, and I posted questions on the boards asking how it compares to CLE. It looks good, but I decided CLE or ABeka still looks like a better fit for her.

 

I had her take the CLE Placement Tests for levels 500 & 600. On the level 500 placement test, the student needs 63 correct answers to pass to level 600. She got 61. Now, the booklet says that if it's close, to check to see if the errors are mainly in a couple of areas. They were. She has completely forgotten how to diagram. :glare: Yes, she missed ALL of them. (The Easy Grammar she used this year has no diagramming.)

 

So I had her go ahead and complete the level 600 placement test. Guess what? She scored about the same: 66 correct out of the 70 needed to pass to level 700, and--you guessed it--she missed every one of the diagramming exercises on the test!

 

What to do, what to do? CLE LA 600? CLE LA 700? Or just get ABeka--which she used and did well with before--and be done with it? Arrrrgggghhhh!!!! :confused: WWYD????

[Ellie]

About EG: When you say that she did it "independently," does that mean that you did not make corrections after each worksheet? Because that's the biggest mistake that people make with EG: allowing the dc to correct their own work, and/or allowing dc to do several pages before making corrections.

 

Also, EG is only grammar; it doesn't cover the writing and other topics that R&S, ABeka, and CLE do.

 

So if you're looking for a more comprehensive English, not only grammar, then yes, you'd need something other than EG.

 

What about Climbing to Good English? It's similar in tone to R&S, but it is a workbook, all of the instruction is in the workbook, and it covers pretty much everything that ABeka and CLE do.

 

The reason I wouldn't recommend ABeka is that besides beating grammar to death, it doesn't have as much writing--instruction and *some* writing in the student workbook, but most of the assignments are in the teacher's curriculum, which is itself mostly a time-management tool for classroom teachers. Also, in a classroom, the teacher does lots of discussion with the whole class, the students take turns answering--IOW, more group interaction than what is common with homeschoolers. They tend to get ABeka like a laser beam, lol.

 

So I guess my vote would be CLE 700 (if you're not interested in CTGE).

[ereks mom]

About EG: When you say that she did it "independently," does that mean that you did not make corrections after each worksheet? Because that's the biggest mistake that people make with EG: allowing the dc to correct their own work, and/or allowing dc to do several pages before making corrections.

 

Also, EG is only grammar; it doesn't cover the writing and other topics that R&S, ABeka, and CLE do.

 

So if you're looking for a more comprehensive English, not only grammar, then yes, you'd need something other than EG.

 

What about Climbing to Good English? It's similar in tone to R&S, but it is a workbook, all of the instruction is in the workbook, and it covers pretty much everything that ABeka and CLE do.

 

The reason I wouldn't recommend ABeka is that besides beating grammar to death, it doesn't have as much writing--instruction and *some* writing in the student workbook, but most of the assignments are in the teacher's curriculum, which is itself mostly a time-management tool for classroom teachers. Also, in a classroom, the teacher does lots of discussion with the whole class, the students take turns answering--IOW, more group interaction than what is common with homeschoolers. They tend to get ABeka like a laser beam, lol.

 

So I guess my vote would be CLE 700 (if you're not interested in CTGE).

 

Sometimes I would correct the work daily, but at other times, I would correct several pages at once. Occasionally I would sit with her and explain the lesson, but mostly, she read the lesson herself and completed the exercises without help.

 

I've already picked out a writing program to use for next year, so I am looking for grammar only--or grammar + penmanship + spelling, if I go with CLE. The penmanship and spelling in CLE might prove to be a real bonus because she really could use a little practice there, but it's not make-or-break.

 

With ABeka, the "bonus" would be the research writing section of the worktext. I like the way ABeka teaches research writing, although it doesn't do a good job of teaching other types of writing unless you buy the curriculum book. But then, if I'm going to teach from the curriculum book, it's going to become time consuming, and I might as well go back to R&S.

 

I've never heard of the CTGE you mentioned, but I'll research it, and maybe I can make a decision soon. Thanks!

[Ellie]

Sometimes I would correct the work daily, but at other times, I would correct several pages at once. Occasionally I would sit with her and explain the lesson, but mostly, she read the lesson herself and completed the exercises without help.

Well, there you go. I always recommend that the parent/teacher corrects each page before the child goes on to the next. Otherwise, the child could be not understanding what she's doing and continue making mistakes, KWIM?

 

I've already picked out a writing program to use for next year, so I am looking for grammar only--or grammar + penmanship + spelling, if I go with CLE. The penmanship and spelling in CLE might prove to be a real bonus because she really could use a little practice there, but it's not make-or-break.

If you're wanting only grammar, then I wouldn't recommend CLE, ABeka, R&S, BJUP, et al. And if she needs spelling, well, the best thing for that is Spalding or one of its spin-offs, which would also cover penmanship, punctuation and capitalization, and simple writing.

 

At her age, I'm not convince more grammar is necessary. Writing should be the emphasis, and using the grammar already studied, KWIM?

 

With ABeka, the "bonus" would be the research writing section of the worktext. I like the way ABeka teaches research writing, although it doesn't do a good job of teaching other types of writing unless you buy the curriculum book. But then, if I'm going to teach from the curriculum book, it's going to become time consuming, and I might as well go back to R&S.

There you go. Although R&S shouldn't be all that time consuming; most subjects were written with one-room classrooms in mind, where there's a one teacher and a boatload of children in different grades, and the teacher doesn't have time to lecture and discuss and do projects. Everything the children need to know is right there in their textbooks.

 

Nevertheless, if you're wanting only grammar, then I wouldn't recommend R&S's English. :-)

 

To throw something else in the mix--just what you need, eh? :D --there's EPS's Stewart English Program. Janet in WA really liked this very much, although she says some don't like it because there isn't an easy grading key, as the children write their own sentences using the grammar they've studied. But it's not very expensive; you could buy one and look it over for yourself.

 

You can find something else to teach research writing. In fact, you can probably teach that all by your onesie. For research papers, it isn't how to write; it's how to do the research. You know how to do that, don't you? Well, there you go. :D

[ereks mom]

Thanks, Ellie. :)

 

I did look at the CTGE you mentioned, but there's something about the look of it that bothers me. I guess it doesn't look "crisp" enough. The online samples aren't good resolution, though, so maybe that was the problem. I've heard of Stewart English, but if there's no easy to use answer key, I'm going to strike it off my list. I'll be teaching 3 teenagers next year, all different grade levels, so I will need to streamline my grading as much as possible. It looks like I'm still stuck between CLE & ABeka. :( I think I'll buy both and then decide.

[birchbark]

Daily Grammar Practice (DGP)

[ereks mom]

Daily Grammar Practice (DGP)

 

I tried DGP last year with my dd. I wanted to love it; I really tried. But we found it a bit tedious. DGP would be great for review, I think, for a kid who just needed to brush up on things, or needed a break from a rigorous program like R&S. That was my plan for my dd when she did DGP last year, and that was also my plan for HV this year when I had her do Easy Grammar/Daily Grams. But it's too open-ended for HV; she needs more direction and instruction.

[RootAnn]

What to do, what to do? CLE LA 600? CLE LA 700? Or just get ABeka--which she used and did well with before--and be done with it? Arrrrgggghhhh!!!! :confused: WWYD????

 

Did she like Abeka when she did it in school? If so, I'd go that direction (as long as you won't be freaking out what level of that to get).

 

If she is ambivalent about Abeka, have you shown her samples of CLE? Let her choose between the two. She's going to be the one doing it.

 

If she chooses CLE and if diagramming was pretty much the only thing she missed, I'd go with CLE LA 700 (closest to her grade level) and spend extra time (with her) on the diagramming sections at the beginning. Make sure you correct the work everyday before she goes on. I know it is hard to keep up with. Try Really Hard - even if you are correcting at bedtime!

 

Good luck!

[Mom0012]

I've been teaching the dd of a friend for 2 years now, grades 6 & 7. She has a reading disability, and on achievement tests, she scores about 2 grade levels behind in reading. Before she came to me, she attended a private school that used ABeka for everything, so she had successfully completed ABeka Language B (5th grade). I was actually a bit surprised at how much grammar she had retained--and that she was pretty good at diagramming.

 

In 6th grade with me, she used R&S English 5, and she HATED it. It was extremely time-consuming (usually an hour a day), I had to sit with her to teach the lesson (very tedious for both of us), and she retained almost nothing. Half the time, she couldn't even pick out the nouns in a sentence. :(

 

This year (7th), I decided to go another route, so I shelved the R&S English 6 that I had bought, and she used Easy Grammar 5/6 daily instead, plus Daily Grams 6 for homework. She did it independently. I didn't have to sit with her. She liked that and I liked that. However, just as with R&S the year before, there is little retention. She makes the same mistakes over and over.

 

So... now it's the end of the school year, and I have to decide what to use for grammar next year (8th grade). I do not want to go back to R&S because it's just too time-consuming. I do want a workbook format because I want something open & go. I will be teaching 3 teenage girls next year (grades 8, 10, & 12) and I won't have an hour or more to spend on grammar for one child every day. But I don't want to go back to Easy Grammar because although it is easy, as the name says, it's simply been ineffective. I think she has actually gone backward in grammar skills this year. :confused:

 

I've been considering ABeka or CLE. ABeka apparently worked pretty well for her before, and I've read a lot of positive things about CLE Language Arts here on the boards. Then I heard about Hake Grammar & Writing, so I looked at it as well, and I posted questions on the boards asking how it compares to CLE. It looks good, but I decided CLE or ABeka still looks like a better fit for her.

 

I had her take the CLE Placement Tests for levels 500 & 600. On the level 500 placement test, the student needs 63 correct answers to pass to level 600. She got 61. Now, the booklet says that if it's close, to check to see if the errors are mainly in a couple of areas. They were. She has completely forgotten how to diagram. :glare: Yes, she missed ALL of them. (The Easy Grammar she used this year has no diagramming.)

 

So I had her go ahead and complete the level 600 placement test. Guess what? She scored about the same: 66 correct out of the 70 needed to pass to level 700, and--you guessed it--she missed every one of the diagramming exercises on the test!

 

What to do, what to do? CLE LA 600? CLE LA 700? Or just get ABeka--which she used and did well with before--and be done with it? Arrrrgggghhhh!!!! :confused: WWYD????

 

Honestly, if she did well with Abeka before, I'd be tempted to go that route. However, if you want to use CLE, I believe they do sell a book that gives instruction and practice just on diagramming. You could use that so she could move right into CLE 7. It seems you have the same problem whether you are putting her in 6 or 7, so that book may be the answer for you.

 

Lisa