Your ideal ancient history/literature/fine arts course of study?

[swimmermom3]

In a couple of recent threads on the Great Books and SWB's high school plan for history and literature, I expressed some skepticism regarding 9th grade students' ability to process and appreciate all of the books on the ancient's list. In hindsight, I realize that skepticism stems not only from questions asked by my own kids, but primarily from my own lack of experience with literature from that time period. I have read 26 out of 31 books on SWB's annotated novel list in TWEM, but almost nothing on the 9th grade Great Books list.:svengo::blushing:

 

So here's my plan. I have birthday money burning a hole in my pocket and would like to pursue my own Great Books study over the summer combining history and literature along with art and architecture. If you could build your ideal Great Course, what resources would be at the top of your list? Should I aim for every book on the 9th grade list? What would you recommend if I want to move beyond the Western canon?

 

Also, on the side, I would love recommendations for Mabingion, the Norse tales ( I get very confused on choosing those) and anything else along those lines.

 

The idea is that this course of study will be for my own enjoyment, but since Swimmer Dude is already waivering in his decision to attend a public high school in the fall, I will be ready- at least for history and literature.:tongue_smilie:

Edited May 18, 2012 by swimmermom3
spelling

[Bluegoat]

So, some things I would read:

 

So, if what I am looking at is right, 9th grade has Homer, the Bible, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Plutarch? I think it would be possible to read all of those in a summer. The Homer might be the biggest challenge.

 

If I were doing it with my child I might do only one of the Homeric epics and add some of the Greek playwrights I think, and the Aeneid for sure. I might also look at some Plato. The Republic might be a bit much for some ninth graders but The Last Days of Socrates would work I think.

[Candid]

I like bluegoat's list although I would do both her 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

 

Greek tragedy in strong translations go down fast so you can read a bunch of them.

 

To help you with Greek myth: I really like Edith Hamilton's Mythology. She details all the tragic families out so you can pick up references to previous generations when you read them in a play.

 

Let me also strongly recommend you listen to Elizabeth Vandiver's talks from the Great Courses on Greek and Latin works. She's great, you can get the audio downloads cheap and you'll get a lot more.

[MicheleinMN]

Read or listen to the Iliad and the Odyssey and read Gilgamesh. Elizabeth Vandiver's lectures give a lot of insight into Homer's epics, and are definitely worth the price of the downloads when they are on sale. ;)

 

I also like Aeschylus - The Oresteia.

 

Enjoy the books! I didn't read ANY of them until my children were starting high school. They have been one of the best things about home education!

Edited May 18, 2012 by MicheleinMN

[regentrude]

On top of my list would be Homeric epics, with the TC lectures by Dr. Vandiver for background. We enjoyed them very much and learned a lot; I doubt we would have been able to develop the understanding without her help.

(I also recommend all her other courses; she is our favorite TC instructor.)

[swimmermom3]

Thank you, thank you! I have Elizabeth Vandiver's Iliad lectures and found them to be helpful, so it sounds as though I should pick up her other ones. I should clarify that I will be starting in the summer, but since it is for my enjoyment, I figure I can take as long as I want and read as much I desire. Does anyone have any suggestions for art and architecture? Do you have any favorite TC lectures for the history portion?

[MtnMama]

For art and architecture, I'd recommend The Annotated Mona Lisa and The Annotated Arch. Both have just enough detail for an overview of art and architecture through history.

[Kfamily]

My dd read and really liked The Mabinogion by Sioned Davies (Oxford Classics) and used Mabon and the Guardians of Celtic Britain by C. Matthews as a guide to go along with it.

[swimmermom3]

I like bluegoat's list although I would do both her 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

 

Greek tragedy in strong translations go down fast so you can read a bunch of them.

 

To help you with Greek myth: I really like Edith Hamilton's Mythology. She details all the tragic families out so you can pick up references to previous generations when you read them in a play.

 

Let me also strongly recommend you listen to Elizabeth Vandiver's talks from the Great Courses on Greek and Latin works. She's great, you can get the audio downloads cheap and you'll get a lot more.

 

Read or listen to the Iliad and the Odyssey and read Gilgamesh. Elizabeth Vandiver's lectures give a lot of insight into Homer's epics, and are definitely worth the price of the downloads when they are on sale. ;)

 

I also like Aeschylus - The Oresteia.

 

Enjoy the books! I didn't read ANY of them until my children were starting high school. They have been one of the best things about home education!

 

I have Hamilton's Mythology book and the Greek Way. Thank you for reminding me about them.

 

Which translation for Gilgamesh? Ferry?

 

Which translation for Aeschylus - The Orestia. SWB recommends Vellacott for a more traditional reading or Slavitt, who sounds like he may take some license, but is more poetic. Any preference or is there a better one? Has anyone read Ted Hughes' s translation?

 

About Vandiver's lectures, these are the possibilities:

 

1. Classical Mythology - $35 - $70

2. Greek Tragedy - currently not on sale so not an option right now

3. Aeneid - audio download - $16

4. The Odyssey - $20-$40 (I own Iliad)

5. Herodotus: The Father of History - not currently on sale

 

I have some codes for discounts on downloads that will help somewhat.

 

Which do you all consider to be the must-haves and does it worth the extra to go to the DVD format?

 

I have Lombardo's Aeneid, but do not remember being particularly wowed by it. Does Vandiver's lecture series heighten one's appreciation for the Aeneid?

 

Has anyone seen the Herodotus series and if so, would it make a good companion to reading the book?

 

Homeschooling has opened my eyes and enjoyment to so many different disciplines. I loved doing ancient history with my boys and look forward to doing my own in-depth study. The best part of this plan is that while I am doing this for myself, I will also ease my worries about not being prepared should Swimmer Dude decide that public high school is not for him.

Edited May 18, 2012 by swimmermom3

[regentrude]

About Vandiver's lectures, these are the possibilities:

 

1. Classical Mythology - $35 - $70

2. Greek Tragedy - currently not on sale so not an option right now

3. Aeneid - audio download - $16

4. The Odyssey - $20-$40 (I own Iliad)

5. Herodotus: The Father of History - not currently on sale

 

I have some codes for discounts on downloads that will help somewhat.

 

Which do you all consider to be the must-haves and does it worth the extra to go to the DVD format?

 

We only used audio and that was fine; I see no need to spend extra for DVD (unless it works better for you to watch lectures instead of listening)

 

Must haves: Iliad and Odyssey. Classical Mythology is very nice, too.

Greek Tragedies: we listened to only half the course because we did not cover all the tragedies she discusses. Not essential, IMO, but nice for the ones you study.

 

I have Lombardo's Aeneid, but do not remember being particularly wowed by it. Does Vandiver's lecture series heighten one's appreciation for the Aeneid?

I think without the lectures we would not have appreciated the Aeneid very much.

I still don't like is nearly as much as Homer, but consider it important especially with regards to studying Dante later on.

 

Has anyone seen the Herodotus series and if so, would it make a good companion to reading the book?

No, but I plan to get it for DS who will study Ancients with more of a (military)history focus. I am looking forward to it because I liked all her other courses.

 

You should look on amazon; I did buy several TC lectures used. Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Homer-Course-Teaching-Lectures/dp/1565853180/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359027&sr=8-4

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Courses-Classical-Mythology-Taught/dp/156585568X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359072&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Tragedy-The-Great-Courses/dp/1565852842/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359072&sr=8-14

http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-CDs-Teaching-Company/dp/1565852923/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_17

Edited May 18, 2012 by regentrude

[elegantlion]

What about using the Stokstad book for art history? I haven't read the ancients portions, but I found it very readable.

 

The Ancient Engineers is another book I own (but haven't read).

[swimmermom3]

What about using the Stokstad book for art history? I haven't read the ancients portions, but I found it very readable.

 

The Ancient Engineers is another book I own (but haven't read).

 

Well, do I feel sheepish.:blushing: Thank you for saving me from my impulsive self, Paula. :lol: The Stokstad book is great. I just pulled it off the shelf and started thumbing through it and refreshing my memory. I used to love reading this book in preparation for Art Literacy presentations in our local school districts. It is an enjoyable read and probably the only book I'll need for the art and architecture portion of my studies.

[MicheleinMN]

Which translation for Gilgamesh? Ferry?

 

I liked Ferry for Gilgamesh.

 

Which translation for Aeschylus - The Orestia. SWB recommends Vellacott for a more traditional reading or Slavitt, who sounds like he may take some license, but is more poetic. Any preference or is there a better one? Has anyone read Ted Hughes' s translation?

 

I've only read all of Vellacott's, but I like histranslation better than Fagles' (I skimmed his translation).

 

Which do you all consider to be the must-haves and does it worth the extra to go to the DVD format?

 

I think the audio downloads are fine. I have a few dvd sets of her lectures and have not found them to be any more compelling.

 

I have Lombardo's Aeneid, but do not remember being particularly wowed by it. Does Vandiver's lecture series heighten one's appreciation for the Aeneid?

 

Yes, she added a great deal to the Aeneid for me. (And I still like the Iliad best, but I did enjoy Lombardo's Aeneid more with Vandiver's lectures than I would have without them.)

 

Has anyone seen the Herodotus series and if so, would it make a good companion to reading the book?

 

I think I have the Herodotus lectures, but I can't remember much about them at the moment. We may not have used them much as my children are not as big fans of Elizabeth Vandiver as I am, and I think we decided to take a break. :glare:

 

Homeschooling has opened my eyes and enjoyment to so many different disciplines. I loved doing ancient history with my boys and look forward to doing my own in-depth study. The best part of this plan is that while I am doing this for myself, I will also ease my worries about not being prepared should Swimmer Dude decide that public high school is not for him.

 

Me too!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I love the TC Rome and the Barbarians set from Harl. The Ancient Greek Civilization was pretty good too. I enjoyed both as audio (I liked listening in the car).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

When we lived in Europe, we were doing ancients and middle ages. We spent a lot of time visiting museums and historic sites. I found that Janson's History of Art for Young People was really helpful to understand what I was looking at.

 

I've heard good things about the Annotated Mona Lisa and The Annotated Arch.

[swimmermom3]

For art and architecture, I'd recommend The Annotated Mona Lisa and The Annotated Arch. Both have just enough detail for an overview of art and architecture through history.

 

I have heard good things on this board about both books, but thankfully, Elegantlion reminded me that I have a very good art history book that should do the job. I did put the architecture book on my Amazon wish list to look at a bit more later and compare against my art history book. Thank you for the recommendations.

 

My dd read and really liked The Mabinogion by Sioned Davies (Oxford Classics) and used Mabon and the Guardians of Celtic Britain by C. Matthews as a guide to go along with it.

 

If I remember right, this is the pairing that Eliana recommended, so it is even more reassuring to hear that your daughter enjoyed it. One of the activities we have been doing over the past year is to trace the effect of a certain work on more contemporary works. My oldest son devoured every Lloyd Alexander book he could get his hands on when he was younger. Last year at age 16, he reread them again after we had tracked down some of the various myths and folktales that Alexander loosely based his works off of. It gave my ds a whole new perspective on the creative writing process.

 

Kfamily, thanks for your help. I always enjoy reading about what you are working on.

[Candid]

I'd get the Odyssey and Aeneid now while they are sale. I would buy the tragedies and Herodotus later while they are on sale. I did audio downloads, they were fine and you get her amazing notes as part of that. She has really detailed notes, nice for going back to her.

 

 

Question I should have asked before: are you interested in other things besides what you've posted here? Confucius, some Hindu things, Egyptian poetry, and the Bible at lit? If so I've got suggestions on those.

[swimmermom3]

We only used audio and that was fine; I see no need to spend extra for DVD (unless it works better for you to watch lectures instead of listening)

 

We have done audio for several of the lectures and I think we should be fine. You have convinced me that I probably won't be sorry if I get all 5 lecture series. The links were most helpful and I finally starting plugging the suggestions and prices into a spreadsheet. Just when I though I had it all figured out, I found a catalog that offered Vandiver's Herodotus for free if you spent $100. :tongue_smilie:Wait! Is that a good deal?

 

Must haves: Iliad and Odyssey. Classical Mythology is very nice, too.

Greek Tragedies: we listened to only half the course because we did not cover all the tragedies she discusses. Not essential, IMO, but nice for the ones you study.

 

I think without the lectures we would not have appreciated the Aeneid very much.

I still don't like is nearly as much as Homer, but consider it important especially with regards to studying Dante later on.

 

There appears to be a strong consensus about the Aeneid lectures, which is great because I am not sure I would have the courage to approach the work again without help.

 

No, but I plan to get it for DS who will study Ancients with more of a (military)history focus. I am looking forward to it because I liked all her other courses.

 

You should look on amazon; I did buy several TC lectures used. Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Homer-Course-Teaching-Lectures/dp/1565853180/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359027&sr=8-4

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Courses-Classical-Mythology-Taught/dp/156585568X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359072&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Tragedy-The-Great-Courses/dp/1565852842/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1337359072&sr=8-14

http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-CDs-Teaching-Company/dp/1565852923/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_17

 

You are always so generous with your time and your advice. It is really appreciated.

[swimmermom3]

When we lived in Europe, we were doing ancients and middle ages. We spent a lot of time visiting museums and historic sites. I found that Janson's History of Art for Young People was really helpful to understand what I was looking at.

 

I've heard good things about the Annotated Mona Lisa and The Annotated Arch.

 

Sebastian,

 

Does Janson's talk only about the history aspect or does it include the technical as far as how the art is made? Do you know how Janson's compares to Gombrich's The Story of Art? I have that on hand already, so I am curious.

 

Thank you for the reminder to start planning my museum visits now. If I can't visit the actual sites, I can find some good documentaries. We had a couple of favorites that we used for middle school; I think I will revisit those.

 

When I asked my daughter why AP European History was her favorite high school course, she said not only was the topic interesting but the teacher, who is Hungarian, was the only history teacher at her public hs who tried to create a physical link to what they were studying. My daughter felt that physically seeing the art that the culture saw and hearing the music that the culture heard gave one a far deeper sense of what that culture experienced on the human level: joy, love, spirituality, fury, grief, and pain.

 

I know personally what she means. It was one thing to read about the Great Wall of China and how it was made and another thing to stand on the top of it stunned by the immensity of the project and the beauty of the place.

[swimmermom3]

Question I should have asked before: are you interested in other things besides what you've posted here? Confucius, some Hindu things, Egyptian poetry, and the Bible at lit? If so I've got suggestions on those.

 

Yes, I am most definitely interested in the above mentioned areas. This is probably the second reason I drag my feet a bit on a strictly Great Book course of study for high school.

 

I can control what types of literature my kids are exposed to while they are in high school; once they leave home, I can't. I want to give them a reason to pursue literature from the other half of the world if for no other reason than for their own self-satisfaction. I guess it is not even an Eastern hemisphere issue. One Hundred Years Solitude makes AP lists, but Latin-American or Spanish-based literature does not get the conversation and explanation it deserves. See, I don't even know the correct terminology to apply to that area. My husband does not "get" books like Imagining Argentina or even authors like Paulo Cohelo. The "magical" element bothers him; magic in Harry Potter in one thing, magic that overlaps reality baffles him. I want my kids to see the beauty of it while they are flexible enough to get it.

 

The nuns at my high school did a wonderful job with British and American literature. As a journalism major I had the luxury and joy of pursuing Russian and Japanese literature. However, I would have overlooked the Japanese literature if my then-boyfriend, now husband, had not inspired me take it. He had just come back from a year of college in Japan and had spent many years living there while growing up. In spite of that, it never would have occurred to me to look at Chinese literature. it somehow seemed like an inferior endeavor.

 

My husband's uncle was an amazing man who spent much of his formative years growing up in China and was actually imprisoned and repatriated by the Japanese because he was "white Chinese." He went on to work with our government and did much to establish the Chinese language program at Yale. He wrote a book about his experiences, sending us a chapter at a time while it was going through the proofing process. I was fascinated by his discussion of and appreciation for the Chinese language. He talked about the subtle humor, sly wit combined with logic.

 

Much of the literature from the Eastern hemisphere (at least from what I have seen) has that sly, sophisticated logic that we Westerners lack. I want my kids to experience that and want to read more. The United States has a huge influx of Asian and Indian population. Why aren't we studying more of their literature to gain understanding?

 

Sorry about the long-winded soapbox speech.:blush::blush::blush:

 

Yes, please send me everything you have.:D

Edited May 19, 2012 by swimmermom3

[swimmermom3]

Eliana, I know you are busy, so I wanted you to know that I have read your much-appreciated responses. It is just taking me a while to write a response.

[elegantlion]

Yes, I am most definitely interested in the above mentioned areas. This is probably the second reason I drag my feet a bit on a strictly Great Book course of study for high school.

 

I can control what types of literature my kids are exposed to while they are in high school; once they leave home, I can't. I want to give them a reason to pursue literature from the other half of the world if for no other reason than for their own self-satisfaction. I guess it is not even an Eastern hemisphere issue. One Hundred Years Solitude makes AP lists, but Latin-American or Spanish-based literature does not get the conversation and explanation it deserves. See, I don't even know the correct terminology to apply to that area. My husband does not "get" books like Imagining Argentina or even authors like Paulo Cohelo. The "magical" element bothers him; magic in Harry Potter in one thing, magic that overlaps reality baffles him. I want my kids to see the beauty of it while they are flexible enough to get it.

 

The nuns at my high school did a wonderful job with British and American literature. As a journalism major I had the luxury and joy of pursuing Russian and Japanese literature. However, I would have overlooked the Japanese literature if my then-boyfriend, now husband, had not inspired me take it. He had just come back from a year of college in Japan and had spent many years living there while growing up. In spite of that, it never would have occurred to me to look at Chinese literature. it somehow seemed like an inferior endeavor.

 

Much of the literature from the Eastern hemisphere (at least from what I have seen) has that sly, sophisticated logic that we Westerners lack. I want my kids to experience that and want to read more. The United States has a huge influx of Asian and Indian population. Why aren't we studying more of their literature to gain understanding?

 

Sorry about the long-winded soapbox speech.:blush::blush::blush:

 

Yes, please send me everything you have.:D

 

I would love to see the list too.

 

Lisa, I would also like to pick your brain on Russian and Japanese literature. Z is still enamored with Japanese and wants to make it our primary language. He also wants to add Russian next year (at an introductory, try-it-out level). I want to add some light lit from those regions. We've studied some Japanese myths and no Russian. Should we start with fairy tales (any recs?), other lighter short stories or books to expand the culture? I believe our studies will end up without the East/West boundary as well. You can PM me if you'd rather.

[swimmermom3]

I would love to see the list too.

 

Lisa, I would also like to pick your brain on Russian and Japanese literature. Z is still enamored with Japanese and wants to make it our primary language. He also wants to add Russian next year (at an introductory, try-it-out level). I want to add some light lit from those regions. We've studied some Japanese myths and no Russian. Should we start with fairy tales (any recs?), other lighter short stories or books to expand the culture? I believe our studies will end up without the East/West boundary as well. You can PM me if you'd rather.

 

Paula,

 

I have a small volume published in 1938 of Japanese fairy tales. It was a gift from my father-in-law to my daughter. The tales included are:

 

 

 

1. Momotaro

2. The Crab's Revenge

3. The Old Man Who Made Trees to Blossom

4. The Tongue-Cut Sparrow

5. The Tea-Kettle of Good Luck

6. The Story of Kachi-Kachi Yama

 

Iwaya Sazanami, also known as Uncle Iwaya, is compared to Grimm for re-telling old Japanese folk tales. He is a great place to start.

 

 

 

At least four of the above stories are in Tales from Japan, but they are retold by Helen & William McAlpine. This volume is not a bad place to start either, but there are probably better choices. Let me check with one of my sisters-in-law. Oh, there is a condensed version of The Tales of the Heike in the McAlpine book, which I do consider to be a must-read, but I haven't gotten around to asking for a recommendation on a full translation.

 

 

As to the rest of your question, I'll pm you later, but first I must go flog some teenagers who are slacking.:tongue_smilie:

[elegantlion]

Paula,

 

I have a small volume published in 1938 of Japanese fairy tales. It was a gift from my father-in-law to my daughter. The tales included are:

 

 

 

1. Momotaro

2. The Crab's Revenge

3. The Old Man Who Made Trees to Blossom

4. The Tongue-Cut Sparrow

5. The Tea-Kettle of Good Luck

6. The Story of Kachi-Kachi Yama

 

Iwaya Sazanami, also known as Uncle Iwaya, is compared to Grimm for re-telling old Japanese folk tales. He is a great place to start.

 

 

 

At least four of the above stories are in Tales from Japan, but they are retold by Helen & William McAlpine. This volume is not a bad place to start either, but there are probably better choices. Let me check with one of my sisters-in-law. Oh, there is a condensed version of The Tales of the Heike in the McAlpine book, which I do consider to be a must-read, but I haven't gotten around to asking for a recommendation on a full translation.

 

 

As to the rest of your question, I'll pm you later, but first I must go flog some teenagers who are slacking.:tongue_smilie:

 

Thank you!

[Candid]

Okay, here are a few more suggestions then:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Analects-Dover-Thrift-Editions/dp/0486284840/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337514032&sr=8-1 (this was easily read and cheap)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-The-Song-Swami-Prabhavananda/dp/0451528441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=133751411 This I am less sure about this is not the Vedas or any of the "story" sort of works from Hindu. On the other hand this is called "the gospel" of Hinduism. It is difficult to follow and bears reading at least twice (it's short). But it does begin to help understand what Hinduism is after.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Words-Delight-Literary-Introduction-Bible/dp/0801077699/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337514229&sr=1-1 I love this book, we read it strung out over the year since the Bible covers a long period of time. My students were less fond of this book, but I doubt that they would have liked any work that is not a "work" but analysis. However for me, it was an amazing book. If nothing else reading the first chapter and the story about the left handed Benjaminite, the chapter on the Song of Songs, and the chapter on Revelation; they will amaze you.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-Literature-An-Anthology/dp/0292725272/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337514409&sr=1-3 This book was a revelation to me. Who knew the Egyptians wrote lyric poetry!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Lyric-Poetry-New-Translation/dp/0393329151/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337514447&sr=1-12 Same thing for this book with Greek lyric poetry.

 

http://www.amazon.com/From-Distant-Days-Ancient-Mesopotamia/dp/1883053099/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337514505&sr=1-1 This is my least favorite. It is interesting but Mesopotamian poetry is broken and missing a lot of bits so what is here is less complete and satisfying.