Logic and Rhetoric

[Peri]

OK, so my dd14 went to public school before I could teach her Logic. I never bothered after schooling it because I never thought that we would go back to homeschooling and she was so weighed down with homework and projects that I just felt bad for her. She is just fed up with the public school system and wanted to go back to homeschooling. So we have. She is a freshman in high school and is supposed to be in the rhetoric stage but has never learned logic. Should I forget about the logic and just delve into the rhetoric or should I spend the summer teaching logic and jump into rhetoric in the fall when she will be a freshman?

[Kendall]

The experts say logic is the foundation of rhetoric. But you could do logic next year and also a composition which includes beginning rhetoric.

 

 

Here is a past thread that might be helpful.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370491&highlight=Tina+logic

OK, so my dd14 went to public school before I could teach her Logic. I never bothered after schooling it because I never thought that we would go back to homeschooling and she was so weighed down with homework and projects that I just felt bad for her. She is just fed up with the public school system and wanted to go back to homeschooling. So we have. She is a freshman in high school and is supposed to be in the rhetoric stage but has never learned logic. Should I forget about the logic and just delve into the rhetoric or should I spend the summer teaching logic and jump into rhetoric in the fall when she will be a freshman?

 

From your post, I don't understand if you mean teaching one class in formal logic, or all the stuff that goes along with the "logic stage"? Those are two very different things.

[beachnut]

That happened w/ DS -- he went to ps for 6th & 7th grade and back to homeschooling in 8th. So, I just picked up where I thought he should begin and moved on from there. I don't think you should skip anything based on where a student "should" be at a certain age. I'd start from the beginning, but move at a quicker pace as the student is capable of (maybe condense the subject studied or the time frame during which you study it, as needed).

 

In 8th grade, we did lots of Critical Thinking Co. books (which we loved, esp. their MindBender series) & Fallacy Detective (which we did not like very much).

 

For 9th grade, we did A Workbook for for Arguments (love this -- it's the expanded form of Rulebook for Arguments), Critical Thinking Book One (so-so -- we're not going to do Book Two) and The Art of Argument (by Classical Academic Press -- love this). Basically we focused on informal logic and fallacies. We're actually not done w/ everything yet, and will continue to work on whatever is left throughout the summer.

 

For 10th grade, we're sticking w/ Classical Academic Press materials because they're user-friendly, effective and enjoyable. So, we'll do their next book called "Argument Builder," which the publisher states should be 1/2 credit course blending a gentle intro to logic/rhetoric. We will begin their formal logic book, "Discovery of Deduction," probably in the 2nd semester of 10th grade. However, I don't think it's supposed to be a 1/2 credit course, so we might have to complete it over the summer.

 

For 11th grade, we will officially study rhetoric, starting w/ the 1st/easiest text that SWB recommends and, if we have time, move on to a harder rhetoric text for 12th grade.

 

FWIW, my 15yo DS may officially be in rhetoric stage because of his age, but maturity wise, he is not there yet.

[Peri]

From your post, I don't understand if you mean teaching one class in formal logic, or all the stuff that goes along with the "logic stage"? Those are two very different things.

 

One ... or two ... of formal logic to lay as a foundation to rhetoric studies they will be doing at the high school level.

[Peri]

That happened w/ DS -- he went to ps for 6th & 7th grade and back to homeschooling in 8th. So, I just picked up where I thought he should begin and moved on from there. I don't think you should skip anything based on where a student "should" be at a certain age. I'd start from the beginning, but move at a quicker pace as the student is capable of (maybe condense the subject studied or the time frame during which you study it, as needed).

 

In 8th grade, we did lots of Critical Thinking Co. books (which we loved, esp. their MindBender series) & Fallacy Detective (which we did not like very much).

 

For 9th grade, we did A Workbook for for Arguments (love this -- it's the expanded form of Rulebook for Arguments), Critical Thinking Book One (so-so -- we're not going to do Book Two) and The Art of Argument (by Classical Academic Press -- love this). Basically we focused on informal logic and fallacies. We're actually not done w/ everything yet, and will continue to work on whatever is left throughout the summer.

 

For 10th grade, we're sticking w/ Classical Academic Press materials because they're user-friendly, effective and enjoyable. So, we'll do their next book called "Argument Builder," which the publisher states should be 1/2 credit course blending a gentle intro to logic/rhetoric. We will begin their formal logic book, "Discovery of Deduction," probably in the 2nd semester of 10th grade. However, I don't think it's supposed to be a 1/2 credit course, so we might have to complete it over the summer.

 

For 11th grade, we will officially study rhetoric, starting w/ the 1st/easiest text that SWB recommends and, if we have time, move on to a harder rhetoric text for 12th grade.

 

FWIW, my 15yo DS may officially be in rhetoric stage because of his age, but maturity wise, he is not there yet.

 

We were almost done with the Mind Bender series before she started public school. We were just about to do the Critical thinking books.

[Peri]

The experts say logic is the foundation of rhetoric. But you could do logic next year and also a composition which includes beginning rhetoric.

 

 

Here is a past thread that might be helpful.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370491&highlight=Tina+logic

 

Yeah that's what I thought but I wanted to ask anyways cause I can be a bit of a perfectionist and I thought that this might just me one of my nit picking ways lol.

[MommyThrice]

I would not skip the logic and I think a freshman is still a bit young for rhetoric.

 

At this age you could easily cover The Fallacy Detective and The Thinking Toolbox over the summer. I would not skip those books - they are the foundation for logic. Then there are several logic curriculum you could cover next year from either Mars Hill or Memoria Press. I've used both, but have now switched to the text Socratic Logic by Peter Kreeft - better explanations and just easier to follow. You don't have to do it all, but do spend some time on it. We just read, take notes, work exercises and DISCUSS (that part is critical). Also, the first few chapters of Jacob's Geometry reinforce this introduction to logic.

 

We start formal rhetoric in 10th grade, although we have already covered persuasive writing through The Lively Art of Writing and A Rulebook for Arguments. We have also done a great deal of speech & debate. For formal logic I really like Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student. Another text - we read, take notes, write examples and DISCUSS.

 

I can't stress enough that logic and rhetoric need to be discussed - partly as a separate formal study but mostly in daily life. Discuss (with a view towards logic and rhetoric) the newspaper, literature, science, what your teen's friends are doing, etc... Point out logical fallacies, use of good logic, and how you could improve on the logic. Look at the use of ethos, pathos and logos - or the lack of - and discuss how you could improve arguments. Write lots of persuasive paper, give persuasive speeches, and try debate.

 

Good luck!

Tracie

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here and say that formal logic is over rated, especially as a basis for rhetoric. I like what David Zaresfky (sp?) says in his great Teaching Company lecture about Argumentation -- that formal logic is rarely useful for argumentation and rhetoric.