Credentials for European schools

[Laura in Torino]

This is my first post, so I hope it's in the right place! I did do a search, and was very pleased to see that there are people from Europe posting here, but didn't see anything exactly like what I'm looking for, so here goes:

 

We are an American homeschooling family who moved to Italy last year from New York. My 17yo (high school junior) daughter plays violin and attends the conservatory here. She's done so well that the faculty suggested two months ago that she audition for the college level. Problem: She can enter the college conservatory program here, but she can't graduate without a diploma. Otherwise it's like she never went. Here's where it starts to get complicated.

 

For a month, the school's director said they'd only take the Italian high school diploma, the maturita'. This is a problem for two obvious reasons: 1) My daughter hasn't studied the Italian curriculum and 2) Though she's learned a lot of Italian and takes classes in it, she's not fluent enough to do college-level exams in it yet. And if she tried to go back and cram it in, she couldn't finish her education in English, or practice violin at her current level.

 

So we started looking at conservatories in other countries. Conservatories in the UK, Netherlands, Finland, Germany, Austria and perhaps Switzerland and France have good reputations. We started with the College Board website AP international portal and read the requirements for each country. England looks doable, but they're very expensive for US citizens. We wrote to a couple of conservatories in other countries (still need to learn more about them), but haven't heard back much, if anything. We do know, though, that many of these countries accept a high school diploma plus some number of APs (to demonstrate a year of college, since European high schools go 5 years). Very well. My daughter takes her first AP exam next week anyway.

 

But the high school diploma is a sticking point with countries who don't know about/accept homeschooling, and don't realize that American colleges don't ask for it. In desperation, I looked up the umbrella school NARHS today and it's going to be a pain (and perhaps impossible) to document three years of work retroactively, but if I have to, I'll do it and even have my daughter write extra papers. But does anyone know if European countries accept this sort of diploma? And does anyone know if any of these countries will waive the requirement for students with several APs?

 

Also, just this week, the director of the conservatory here said, "Bring us what you have and we'll see what we can do. Meanwhile, ask the US Embassy." I did call the Embassy and they said they don't do ed certification. Sounds like we're going to be in a typically Italian back and forth situation for a while. I'm glad the school is starting to understand where we're coming from, but we need to decide what to do about next year within the month. And regardless, it's probably going to be similar to what the other countries want.

 

So, my questions are: Does anyone know what kinds of diplomas European countries will accept from homeschoolers, or how to get one that they will accept? Does anyone have experience with applying to European universities as a homeschooler? And does anyone have experience with European conservatories in particular? If so, I'd love to talk to you, no matter which country you're from.

 

I have posted to expat boards, homeschooling college boards, and written every American I know who lives in Europe. No one that I know has been in this situation before, because either their kids are young and they're studying for the European exam, or they already have some college credit and can transfer in. We're in between.

 

Sorry so long! Thanks for reading this far, and I hope this makes sense. If not, please feel free to ask clarifying questions.

[Nan in Mass]

I have no idea if this would fit your needs or not, but have you looked here: http://www.clonlara.org/ ? It is expensive and I don't know if you can jump in partway through high school and I have no experience with them (lol - how is that for a recommendation?) but they *are* used to working with international homeschoolers and they do accommodate individualized educations. They might be easier to deal with than NARHS.

 

Nan

 

PS - There are people here who are homeschooling who are planning on having their students go to a European university. Hopefully they will be more helpful than I was. I am homeschooling in the US, aiming for US university.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[Gwen in VA]

it's going to be a pain (and perhaps impossible) to document three years of work retroactively,

 

You would have to do that even for an American college! :sad:

 

Best wishes. My son looked briefly at a school in England, and all we found out (after many phone calls) was that he didn't have enough AP scores to apply to this particular school. (They needed scores, so the AP tests needed to be taken before senior year to count.)

[J-rap]

So the conservatory in Italy never takes international students? Because no international student would have their high school degree from Italy. Your daughter would be the first? It sounds like they are impressed enough with your daughter that they may start thinking about this and make some compromises.

 

Our children have all expressed interest in studying abroad, so we made sure they had some kind of degree besides homeschool. Our local ps made it real easy. We live in a small town that has allowed us to transfer all of our homeschool courses to their school during the last semester of their senior year, and graduate as part of their senior class. It is pretty remarkable.

 

Still, it is interesting to me that the school in Italy has never dealt with international students before. Or maybe they're being vague.

 

One of our daughters hopes to study in England eventually. Another daughter is currently a full-time student in Costa Rica. She had to show a transcript from all of her high school classes (which were mostly homeschool classes); they never requested the actual degree. Although, we did have the school include a cover letter saying our daughter had graduated from there. (But that part seemed unimportant.) We had to bring her transcript records to an official translation office (and pay a fine fee) in order to have her entire transcript translated to Spanish. Then, we had the translated copy certified by the Secretary of State in our state. In all honesty, I don't know what she was certifying! That the translation was authentic? That my daughter is a citizen here? That her transcripts were real? In any case, her certification seemed to be important. This was acceptable by the university in Costa Rica. My daughter also had to pass a Spanish fluency test.

 

So, to sum it up: the university she is at did not need a copy of her actual degree (even though she had one). They wanted a copy of her classes -- in Spanish -- verified by our Secretary of State. This seemed to satisfy their requirements.

 

Maybe you could propose something similar?

 

Good luck! We may be going through the same thing for a UK school soon.

[Laura Corin]

Good luck! We may be going through the same thing for a UK school soon.

 

The UK 'high school' system is exam-based. There's no such thing as a transcript or an official graduation certificate. You will need to take exams (APs, etc.) but that's it. This is a sample requirement from one university.

 

Laura

[sahm99]

You should post that question on the bilingual forum - you might get more feedback from there.

From what I understand (and hope, as I'll be in your shoes in a couple of years!) European universities are mostly inerested in the APs, the high-school diploma being more of a standard "cross it off requirement".

[Laura in Torino]

Thank you, all who responded!

 

I spoke with Clonlara last night, and although they are more expensive, I like them, because their process seems to be more about learning and less about checking boxes. So Gwen, you're right that we need to be prepared to document somehow, but at least with Clonlara it looks more like they'll take in-depth descriptions (which is more like what US colleges want) instead of having my daughter writing retroactive papers to show she did something. (I know I wouldn't want to have to do book reports on dozens of books I read two years ago!) But I'll have to investigate more.

 

JJhat7, you raise a good question about other foreign students. So far as I know, the answer is that: 1) No, they don't have many foreign students--they told me as much themselves. Honestly, Italy isn't a primary destination for violinists; it's just where we happen to live. 2) The foreign students they do have are largely from China (especially vocalists) and come in via a special program that has different requirements (my guess is that it's more like an exchange program with Chinese universities), and 3) the few who do come from other countries come from other European countries, so they have taken their own exit exams. Our particular problem is that we are American, and homeschoolers.

 

When we were investigating the move last year, I actually wrote Maya Frost, the woman who wrote The New Global Student, a book about her three daughters living and studying in South America. She was very kind, and said quite honestly that the reason the book focused on South America was that Europe was a hard nut to crack. I'd love for this diploma thing to just be a formality, as it apparently is in South America, because then my daughter could just take the GED and say, "Here's your piece of paper." But I don't think it's going to be that simple in the EU. If anyone knows otherwise, I'll be delighted to stand corrected!

 

And yes, there is a whole certification layer for any foreign document that requires you to get everything FedExed, stamped, sealed, translated, taxed, and have your finger pricked in blood after waiting for hours for your number to come up at some office where bureaucrats glare at you over lowered glasses. But that's par for the course with immigration, especially in Italy--how well we know! We just want to make sure that we don't get all the way to that application desk just to have them send us back to the start.

 

The whole situation is made more complicated by the fact that the people we are talking to don't speak English, and our Italian is enough to understand the general idea but not always the precise details, and as a result I'm never 100% sure what the take-home points were. And also, Italian conversations never seem to have a firm set of take-home points even when you're lucky enough to have a translator. So there's both a linguistic and a cultural gap we're trying to bridge. That's our own responsibility, we know.

 

But hey, if I ever figure this out, I'll post details to make it easier for the rest of you! And meanwhile, if anyone has been there and has any more details for me, I'd still love to hear them!

Edited May 3, 2012 by Laura in Torino
typos

[J-rap]

A friend sent me this link to the UCAS website, which I have not looked at thoroughly yet. My friend described UCAS as a UK central clearinghouse (which she believes is a government-sponsored entity). Through UCAS, universities in the UK receive all their applications and they send their decisions back to UCAS rather than deal directly with students. Perhaps it would have some helpful information for you.

 

http://www.ucas.com/

[Joan in GE]

Hi Laura,

 

I posted on your Bilingual Board thread without having read this thread.

 

We have done it - but had documented work for high school.

 

There are actually a number of threads over the past several years which have dealt with this question and I'll try to find them in the next few days.

 

But as I said in the BB, a conservatory might fall in a different category in some countries, though I'd have to research more.

 

Anyway, have to get to bed,

Joan

[Joan in GE]

(They needed scores, so the AP tests needed to be taken before senior year to count.)

 

This is curious because all the European school leaving exams (Abitur, Swiss matu, French bacc, etc) are taken at the end of the senior year, so they don't get those scores till late - well after the deadline for application. So then they give a second deadline - July 15th - to turn in your scores. BUT, some people (with A-levels, and eg AP results sent overseas) don't get their scores until after that, so they will still accept them after that if you have warned them ahead of time. In fact, the Federal Swiss matu is taken at the end of the summer, and those students only know they passed a few days before school starts!

 

Mine took his AP's in his junior year, but graduated after his junior year as well and at least here in Switzerland, was accepted with the results showing up at the end of July.

 

It leaves no wiggle room and is nervewracking. But it is just to say, that the schedule of acceptance is completely different - definitely here in Switzerland and probably other European countries due to the timing of the national exams.

 

Joan

[Laura in Torino]

Replying to your questions here:

 

Seekinghim45, we have documentation for some of the past work, but not all of it, because it's not usually needed in the US. I have always kept a daily diary and book/activity lists, plus some summaries I made at the time, but not always every paper or hour spent. Clonlara seemed to be willing to help us reconstruct what we needed to. So, I guess some classes are, like you say, "mommy records." They are usually the more reading-oriented ones.

 

I don't know that particular Academy, but with two camps on the agenda already this summer, I unfortunately can't do one more thing. Sounds fun, though! I'll have to look it up.

 

jjhat7, I took a look at the website, but unfortunately couldn't make heads or tails of it at the time (I was pretty tired). I'll have to have another look later. It could help if dd decides to take the A-levels, but unfortunately the Royal Academies in the UK seem to be as expensive as the American private/out-of-state colleges, at least for American citizens. They have steep "out-of-country" fees for non-EAA member countries.

 

Joan, I replied to you on the bilingual board as well. What kind of high school documentation did you do/need? I'll keep looking for those threads and reading the boards generally, but if you happen to know what search terms would work or find links, that would be most helpful!

 

Also, your explanation of the way the exam system works here shed a lot of light on my confusion last year about why everything concerning the conservatory happened at the last minute. That makes sense!

[creekland]

 

Um.. it is if you want to go to college. In Texas I don't have to document anything to homeschool. However, I knew that I needed to have transcripts and additional documentation to get into college....

 

To all the readers of this thread.. now the European angle is a completely different problem all together that I cannot help her with. However, DO NOT WAIT UNTIL LATE JUNIOR OR SENIOR YEAR TO DO YOUR HIGH SCHOOL RECORDS!!!!!!!! What a nightmare. I can't imagine trying to reconstruct things.. I've kept all essays, major tests, etc.

 

With the two we've gotten into college so far, all we needed was a signed transcript (signed by hubby) and test scores. I never had to do course descriptions or submit any portfolio "stuff" for any school nor did we cross any off of our list due to wanting these things. We have all of that because we live in PA and need it each year for our state, but I've never needed it for colleges.

 

For the common app I did the homeschool counselor stuff, but uploaded our own transcript instead of filling in their page(s).

[Joan in GE]

Something else you should research about European conservatories is the 'failure' rate...

 

I don't know if they are the same as Swiss universities where half the freshman pop will fail....(ETA I don't know about the rest of Europe but would be very interested to know....if there is such a high failure rate in the 1st and 2nd years - here very generalized about 50, then 20-30)

 

It is the opposite of the US. There is no 'handholding' - but then you don't pay for it either. Fees are so low, it's about $1200/ year...for uni - don't know about conservatory...Also, I don't know the situation for noncitizens...It's true that citizen status makes a big difference for certain things - eg language exams...Is your daughter fluent in Italian? or any other European language? It seems like that would be an important concern...

 

Joan

Edited May 4, 2012 by Joan in Geneva
corrections

[lailasmum]

Could she do something like take 3 A levels (british exam). That would be the exam taken before university. She may have to also have maths and English at gcse level which are the exams taken at 16ish.

[Laura in Torino]

I have kept grades, a running transcript and course descriptions for each course we have done at home. Now I do NOT have any accredited school or oversight. Is that what you have? Or not? I would say that a lot of homeschoolers don't have the "official" oversight but just do their own mommy records. It still works quite well for college admission here in the states.

 

Seekinghim45, we have documentation for some of the past work, but not all of it, because it's not usually needed in the US.

 

 

Um.. it is if you want to go to college. In Texas I don't have to document anything to homeschool. However, I knew that I needed to have transcripts and additional documentation to get into college....

 

To all the readers of this thread.. now the European angle is a completely different problem all together that I cannot help her with. However, DO NOT WAIT UNTIL LATE JUNIOR OR SENIOR YEAR TO DO YOUR HIGH SCHOOL RECORDS!!!!!!!! What a nightmare. I can't imagine trying to reconstruct things.. I've kept all essays, major tests, etc.

 

Seekinghim45, it seems to me that we may be saying much the same thing, though perhaps in different words. Course descriptions and transcripts will be no problem. Truly, I've never heard of a US school wanting to see old at-home tests, but if they do, and my daughter decides to apply to a US school, we'll figure something out. Mainly, though, I was just wanting to know if anyone knew how things worked in Europe.

[Laura in Torino]

Saw these after I posted:

 

Something else you should research about European conservatories is the 'failure' rate...

 

I don't know if they are the same as Swiss universities where half the freshman pop will fail....(ETA I don't know about the rest of Europe but would be very interested to know....if there is such a high failure rate in the 1st and 2nd years - here very generalized about 50, then 20-30)

 

It is the opposite of the US. There is no 'handholding' - but then you don't pay for it either. Fees are so low, it's about $1200/ year...for uni - don't know about conservatory...Also, I don't know the situation for noncitizens...It's true that citizen status makes a big difference for certain things - eg language exams...Is your daughter fluent in Italian? or any other European language? It seems like that would be an important concern...

 

Joan

 

Yes, I think they do fail people more here, and that the learning is more rote and less supported. I hear that anyone with an exit exam can get into European unis, but getting out can take many years. I'm less worried about music than I would be about, say, chemistry, because I know my daughter is extremely motivated, but if she fails, she fails. It could happen.

 

And yes, she did have to pass a language exam to get into the school here. And she'd likely have to pass another one to get into the schools in most other European countries (maybe not the Netherlands or Finland), but watching her progress in Italian this year reassures me that it's doable, just a lot of work.

 

And lailasmum, we have indeed thought of the A-levels. I was looking into it earlier this week, before I got sidetracked with other options. Do you happen to know if there are online courses in England that can prep for it?

[Laura Corin]

And lailasmum, we have indeed thought of the A-levels. I was looking into it earlier this week, before I got sidetracked with other options. Do you happen to know if there are online courses in England that can prep for it?

 

The most established one is the NEC.

 

As APs work for the UK, you might find those easier though: A levels have very specific curricula, which might cramp your style. I would ask around where you are and see about taking the exams first: international schools or the British Council might offer facilities for A levels. Perhaps international schools for the APs?

 

I don't know how it is using A levels to go to universities elsewhere in Europe.

 

It might not be relevant to you, but chemistry and physics A levels are hard to take outside of a bricks and mortar school, because of the lab requirements.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Laura in Torino]

Thanks, Laura!

 

I'm mostly thinking of this as a possible English-language equivalent of the maturita'. If they gave us no other choice, at least it beats that!

 

Here's what the Italian website says about British qualifications:

 

"The British secondary qualifications normally accepted consist of 6 passes in different subjects, at least 3 of which must rank at advanced level.

The 3 A-levels must be related to the chosen Italian programme (course requirements). An A-level in Italian is valid for admission to any programme, independently of its subject field."

 

If we pursued this, I guess we'd have to figure out how to do that lab component. Then, we'd have to see if A-levels were accepted in other European countries as well.

 

The reason for not considering education in the UK itself (such as the Royal Academies, which quite seem do-able), is that the UK adds a pretty steep international fee for American citizens, at least as I understand the qualifications, making the Royal Academies just as expensive as US conservatories. If that's the case, we'd be more comfortable with the US.

 

As for sitting for APs, we can do that here. In fact, we'll be traveling to Milan tomorrow for dd's first AP exam.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Laura in Torino
Realized I'd said something factually wrong

[Joan in GE]

If we pursued this, I guess we'd have to figure out how to do that lab component. Then, we'd have to see if A-levels were accepted in other European countries as well.

 

Hi Laura,

 

Here in Geneva there is a British school where you can do A-levels - I think it's possible to even do just one or two, so maybe there is something like that in Torino where your dd could do just science. I think they might be a two year program though - I'm sure Laura Corin can tell? At least there are lots of study books available.

 

I think A-levels are pretty well accepted - at least here in Switzerland.

 

I guess you know PA homeschoolers for physics and chemistry?

 

Joan

 

ETA - Just putting the links here for the other threads on the bilingual board....and I've tagged them.

Requirements for entering European university

European School

Another

Edited May 7, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[Laura Corin]

 

"The British secondary qualifications normally accepted consist of 6 passes in different subjects, at least 3 of which must rank at advanced level.

The 3 A-levels must be related to the chosen Italian programme (course requirements). An A-level in Italian is valid for admission to any programme, independently of its subject field."

 

If we pursued this, I guess we'd have to figure out how to do that lab component.

 

Then you can skip the physics/chemistry. You could do, for example, maths, geography (which has an element of physical geography/geology) and Italian as AS level (i.e., the level that British students reach by age 17), and music, English and history at A2 level (the level that British students reach by age 18). You don't need to take A levels in every subject that a US high school would deem necessary.

 

Laura

[asta]

Every British, Scottish, and European uni I've talked to has only required a mish-mash of SAT, SAT + subject exams, SAT + APs, IB, or one year of US college plus a high school diploma (didn't care if it was 'accredited').

 

The uni kid has decided to attend requires the SAT (no subject tests) and a CEFR of C2 in the teaching language for all international students. Needless to say, they don't get many international students because of that.

 

Obviously, each program has specific score levels for all of the above.

 

You may want to talk to the "American Admissions" officer at the conservatory. Every uni I've spoken to has had an "International Admissions" officer and also an "American Admissions" officer simply because US testing is so completely different.

 

Good luck.

 

a

[Laura in Torino]

They don't care about the diploma accreditation? Wow, that could make a difference of thousands of dollars in umbrella school fees! Of course, I'll need to check that out for the schools we're most interested in. I'm getting extra documentation ready anyway.

 

What you're saying about the American admissions officer surprises me, and I hope it's true. I have yet to find such a person, and wonder if it's because conservatories are usually smaller than universities. The director here candidly said she'd never had an Americans apply before, and was shocked to hear that the US doesn't have a European style exit exam. So far, our other experiences have been similar, though sometimes at least the contact person speaks English (not here). But it's good to know that there are American admissions people out there, and we'll keep trying to find them.

 

Asta, may I ask another question? If you are an American who was talking to British schools, did you run into much higher fees because of American citizenship? The requirements on the Royal Academy websites seem clear and doable compared to elsewhere in Europe, yet with the non-EEA fees plus living expenses, the schools seem as expensive as US conservatories. If I thought that being an EU resident (and taxpayer, ouch) would somehow exonerate us from those double-ish outsider fees, I'd be much more keen dd applying.

 

And yes, there is that language thing! That's one reason we're trying to figure out which schools are on the shortlist now. A romance language might be learnable, since dd now understands her classes given in Italian well enough. But with German, in particular, she'd be starting from scratch, so best to get started soon if it looks like a real possibility.

 

Joan, I had sent you an e-mail as you suggested on one thread, but I'm not entirely sure it went through. If you're busy and your box is full, no problem, but I just wanted to make sure it even sent.

 

Again, thanks for the responses, everyone!

[Joan in GE]

Joan, I had sent you an e-mail as you suggested on one thread, but I'm not entirely sure it went through. If you're busy and your box is full, no problem, but I just wanted to make sure it even sent.

 

Hi Laura,

 

I'm very sorry to say - but I never received your email. And it's definitely not in my spam as I keep that box empty (to help gmail sort as quickly as possible). I don't know where it is in cyberspace! I'll pm you.

 

Joan

[Nan in Mass]

Asta - C2!!!!! We heard B2 was the usual level required for college. Wow.

 

And we just watched a Ukranian try to graduate from a small US school that had limited experience dealing with students like him. In the end, he had to figure out how US schools work, what he needed as a foreign student, and what was legal, and then go educate the school about it and request it. This required good timing on his part. He had to know in time to give the school enough lead time to get all the signatures and approvals and he had to make the requests at a time when the school wasn't very busy dealing with its ordinary students. It was very obvious that if the school had had more experience with foreign students, the process would have gone much more smoothly.

 

Nan

[Laura Corin]

They don't care about the diploma accreditation? ..... (snip)

 

Asta, may I ask another question? If you are an American who was talking to British schools, did you run into much higher fees because of American citizenship? The requirements on the Royal Academy websites seem clear and doable compared to elsewhere in Europe, yet with the non-EEA fees plus living expenses, the schools seem as expensive as US conservatories. If I thought that being an EU resident (and taxpayer, ouch) would somehow exonerate us from those double-ish outsider fees, I'd be much more keen dd applying.

 

Asta is right as regards the UK: we don't care about diplomas, only specific exams.

 

Fees: it's not that overseas students are charged more. Instead UK and EEA students (the latter because of specific mutual treaties) can study at a discount compared to the actual cost of their education. UK universities are almost all publicly supported, so the discount is funded by UK taxpayers' centralised support of universities. This is why the discount is not available to overseas students: the Royal Academy is not a private institution in the US sense; instead it exists to give cheap education to domestic students and at-cost education to others. This page gives authoritative details about exactly who is eligible for which kinds of fees. And yes, London is an expensive city - there's no particular reason why studying there should be cheaper than in the US. I have specifically advised Calvin to avoid studying there if possible - other places in Britain are much cheaper.

 

ETA: this article mentions that the Royal Academy of Music is directly funded by the UK government.

 

Laura

Edited May 14, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Laura in Torino]

Thanks, Laura. Well, that is a thorough page, isn't it? Admittedly, I have a headache at the moment and couldn't look at it that long, but I looked up "national," and I think it means I have to be a citizen of an EU country, though I wasn't entirely sure because it said "citizen or national." Perhaps it's worth a talk with the school, though.

 

There's got to be some advantage to the mountain of paperwork we did to get residency here, and to paying all those European taxes!

[Laura in Torino]

It was very obvious that if the school had had more experience with foreign students, the process would have gone much more smoothly.

 

Nan

 

Absolutely. We've seen this already. It makes a huge difference. Otherwise, it feels like you're constantly reinventing the wheel, which is how I've felt like for about the past year.

 

We are, however, slowly but surely, making progress.

[Laura Corin]

Thanks, Laura. Well, that is a thorough page, isn't it? Admittedly, I have a headache at the moment and couldn't look at it that long, but I looked up "national," and I think it means I have to be a citizen of an EU country, though I wasn't entirely sure because it said "citizen or national." Perhaps it's worth a talk with the school, though.

 

There's got to be some advantage to the mountain of paperwork we did to get residency here, and to paying all those European taxes!

 

You may find that that just reflects different terminology in different countries for the same thing. I would guess that it means people eligible for a passport of that country. For that matter, British people have only recently started to be referred to as citizens rather than subjects.

 

Good luck with the page. I did a lot of research on this when we were resident overseas and I wanted to know about the fees my children would have to pay if they wanted to go to university in the UK. My research is probably out of date now though, so I'd go with what the page says. I did once call the organisation whose website this is and I seem to remember they were helpful. These things are decided at a government level, so an individual university will not make the final decision.

 

Just so you know, when talking to UK institutions: the word 'school' is not normally used for a university-level institution. It would be a university or, in your case, academy or conservatoire. A college is a subdivision within a university, so Oxford University is made up of many colleges. Otherwise, a college is a lower-level institution, similar to a US community college.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

Edited May 14, 2012 by Laura Corin

[asta]

What Laura said, LOL.

 

Sadly, even with the "high" international fees for a student attending an English or Scottish school, you'll still usually end up better off financially than you would paying for a US uni of equal caliber. As long as you aren't living in London...

 

I know many people will say "but what about financial aid!" -- well, if you aren't eligible to begin with, it kinda sorta doesn't matter what country the kid goes to...

 

But yeah, C2. When she said that, I about gagged. Three years of trying to focus kid towards something he'd like to do with his education and/or life, he finally says EUREKA! and he has to get to C2. He's only an angsty B something who freezes in conversation. At least he has until January to get his sh*t together and he is taking it VERY seriously.

 

 

a

[Laura Corin]

What Laura said, LOL.

 

Sadly, even with the "high" international fees for a student attending an English or Scottish school, you'll still usually end up better off financially than you would paying for a US uni of equal caliber. As long as you aren't living in London...

 

 

Laura

[Laura in Torino]

You may find that that just reflects different terminology in different countries for the same thing. I would guess that it means people eligible for a passport of that country. For that matter, British people have only recently started to be referred to as citizens rather than subjects.

 

Just so you know, when talking to UK institutions: the word 'school' is not normally used for a university-level institution. It would be a university or, in your case, academy or conservatoire. A college is a subdivision within a university, so Oxford University is made up of many colleges. Otherwise, a college is a lower-level institution, similar to a US community college.

 

 

 

Oh, yes, I forgot about that! I rather did like the word "subjects," though.

 

I think the reason I tend to say "school" is so that I won't say university, but also to distinguish from the type of conservatory that doesn't have any requirements except being in line for solo career/household name status (yikes!). I'm using it in the US sense. But you're right, of course, that it's not used in Europe, and that college is used both in the US and UK to refer to a subdivision within a university, so I'll keep that in mind when talking to people in the UK. My sloppy American habits could be quite confusing!

[Laura in Torino]

What Laura said, LOL.

 

Sadly, even with the "high" international fees for a student attending an English or Scottish school, you'll still usually end up better off financially than you would paying for a US uni of equal caliber. As long as you aren't living in London...

 

I know many people will say "but what about financial aid!" -- well, if you aren't eligible to begin with, it kinda sorta doesn't matter what country the kid goes to...

 

But yeah, C2. When she said that, I about gagged. Three years of trying to focus kid towards something he'd like to do with his education and/or life, he finally says EUREKA! and he has to get to C2. He's only an angsty B something who freezes in conversation. At least he has until January to get his sh*t together and he is taking it VERY seriously.

 

 

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I have to admit that the C2 part went by me the first time, because I assumed B2. My daughter only had to pass Italian to B2 to start the conservatory, I think, and she must have just squeaked by. She got better once all her classes were in Italian, but I'm still not sure she's a C2!

 

Amazing how they can turn on the mental juice when they have to, isn't it?

 

And I hear you on the financial aid. I'm not counting on it!

 

And Laura C., yes, there are good conservatory options outside of London, I think. I've got someone who used to conduct in the UK checking on the strings programs.

[Laura in Torino]

Just thought I'd post an update on what has transpired with the whole European credential situation.

 

With regret, we have finally decided to enroll our daughter in a full-time IB school for the next two years. After trying by every means we knew to get the authorities here in Italy to acknowledge the requirements listed on their own website for recognizing American educational credentials, we had to admit our chances of success were very slim. It wasn't just a matter of documentation, but of finding any navigable path at all. Even as listed, the requirements are onerous to an American high school student living in Italy; in addition to two further years (13 total) of AP classes these requirements would have required her to return to the US to attend college for at least one additional year before entering a higher ed program in Italy. But we were given no reassurance at all, despite many meetings, that even this path would be recognized.

 

In addition, the requirements for each European country are different and we had trouble getting the information we needed about each. Finally we reluctantly acknowledged that the IB program was the simplest and least stressful (and perhaps the only practicable) way to qualify her to attend a European university or conservatory. All countries, including the US, recognize the IB. While difficult, it would take a year less to complete. And she could continue to live at home while completing it.

 

We have been enthusiastic home educators for twelve years now and would very much liked to have continued. I have to admit I shed more than a few tears when I realized we'd have to put her in school. But even I had to acknowledge that, due to onerous and ambiguous requirements, the past year really didn't feel much like home education. It felt like someone else (or more than one someone else) was leading us and not even telling us where we needed to go. I didn't mind being a pioneer and working hard, but I didn't think I should continue to homeschool at the expense of my daughter's own well-being and future.

 

I hope that someone with a little more support (maybe in an easier country) and a few more years advance notice will soon find a way to qualify American homeschoolers for European education. I was hoping to do it. But I have to admit that moving to Italy on relatively short notice, not really by choice, and then trying to figure out how to qualify by several different countries' standards at the end of my daughter's high school education, and not in English, was more than I could do. A woman, even a stubborn and enthusiastic American homeschooling mom who loves what she does, is not an island.

 

But I'm very glad for the twelve years of homeschooling we had.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm sorry. That must be hard. People trying and failing sometimes paves the way for the next person to succeed. I hope you find a silver lining in all this and the IB program turns out to be marvelous and provides your daughter with some life-long friends. Thank you for the update.

Nan

[Kareni]

Wishing your daughter every success in her new venture. And best wishes to you, Laura, as you enter this new stage.

 

Regards,

Kareni