I'm having a hard time reading "The Lost Tools of Learning."

[amselby81]

It's taking me forever to read this, and it's not very long. I think Dorothy Sayers was too smart for me or something. She's very wordy, and I feel like she tells something in a very roundabout way, and sometimes I think I know what she's saying and then she finishes a paragraph off in a way I don't get.

 

Here's an example of one such paragraph:

 

"It will, doubtless, be objected that to encourage young persons at the Pert age to browbeat, correct, and argue with their elders will render them perfectly intolerable. My answer to that children of that age are intolerable anyhow; and that their natural argumentativeness may just as well be canalized to good purpose as allowed to run away into the sands. It may, indeed, be rather less obtrusive at home if it is disciplined in school; and anyhow, elders who have abandoned the wholesome principle that children should be seen and not heard have no one to blame but themselves."

 

Wha????? She starts out by saying that children in the Pert stage are argumentative and so we should take advantage of that by teaching them debate and logic. Well, the debate and logic parts were in previous paragraphs. But I am assuming she's encouraging us to allow these pre-teens to argue, but in a constructive way. Then she says the bolded part, which IMO doesn't fit very well with this idea. She says that the idea that children should be seen and not heard is wholesome, and anyone who doesn't see it that way are to blame. To blame for what exactly? For the failure in the system? But her previous statements seemed to abandon the idea. At least that's how I read it. Instead of telling our children not to question things and to stay quiet and be cute, we begin to teach them how to direct their questions into research and debate.

 

Am I the only person who feels that this essay is hard to read?

[amselby81]

Uh oh. No one's responding. That's making me nervous. Maybe I am the only person who has trouble understanding it.

[GingerPoppy]

I agree with you! I might be tired tonight, but that didn't seem very straightforward to me.

[gamedesignmom]

It was a challenge for me to read as well. I had to write an essay on it and had to re-read it three times to figure it out. Of course, it's been decades since I've had to write an essay on anything so I think my brain had to re-stretch. @_@

[pitterpatter]

I have no idea who this person is, but if she is a modern writer, I would consider her pompous and someone who doesn't truly know how to write...she just think she does. ;)

 

I'd chuck that book so fast...

[Jayne J]

If I recall correctly, Sayers originally wrote Lost Tools as a speech, and I wonder if some of the seemingly odd bits are merely humor to get a chuckle from the crowd. She did have a rather wry sense of humor. Try to imagine someone giving it as a speech, and perhaps it will flow better for you.

[amselby81]

I have no idea who this person is, but if she is a modern writer, I would consider her pompous and someone who doesn't truly know how to write...she just think she does. ;)

 

I'd chuck that book so fast...

 

Dorothy Sayers wrote this in 1947, so it's not modern. She was friends with J.R.R. Tolkein and C.S. Lewis, but I can read their work with no issues.

 

I find it kind of funny when she refers to modern education and how messed up it is, but yet she's referring to education from over 60 years ago. Oh, what would she have to say about modern education today? IMO, it's so much worse now than it was then.

[morosophe]

If I recall correctly, Sayers originally wrote Lost Tools as a speech, and I wonder if some of the seemingly odd bits are merely humor to get a chuckle from the crowd. She did have a rather wry sense of humor. Try to imagine someone giving it as a speech, and perhaps it will flow better for you.

 

:iagree: That last bit (the part you bolded) was tongue-in-cheek.

Of course, children need to be taught company manners as well as their school lessons, and that they can't always talk the same way to everyone. That's the more serious take on that quote.

[Elysian]

"It will, doubtless, be objected that to encourage young persons at the Pert age to browbeat, correct, and argue with their elders will render them perfectly intolerable. My answer to that children of that age are intolerable anyhow; and that their natural argumentativeness may just as well be canalized to good purpose as allowed to run away into the sands. It may, indeed, be rather less obtrusive at home if it is disciplined in school; and anyhow, elders who have abandoned the wholesome principle that children should be seen and not heard have no one to blame but themselves."

 

I think she's joking. Like the previous commenters said, it was originally a speech, so her tone of voice would probably have made it clearer at the time. My translation of her words:

 

"Some people will complain that we shouldn't encourage kids to argue, because it's annoying. I reply that since kids are going to argue anyway, we might as well teach them how to do it properly. Unless you're going to insist that kids shut up altogether, you'll just have to put up with the annoyance."

[Medieval Mom]

"It will, doubtless, be objected that to encourage young persons at the Pert age to browbeat, correct, and argue with their elders will render them perfectly intolerable. My answer to that children of that age are intolerable anyhow; and that their natural argumentativeness may just as well be canalized to good purpose as allowed to run away into the sands. It may, indeed, be rather less obtrusive at home if it is disciplined in school; and anyhow, elders who have abandoned the wholesome principle that children should be seen and not heard have no one to blame but themselves."

 

I think she's joking. Like the previous commenters said, it was originally a speech, so her tone of voice would probably have made it clearer at the time. My translation of her words:

 

"Some people will complain that we shouldn't encourage kids to argue, because it's annoying. I reply that since kids are going to argue anyway, we might as well teach them how to do it properly. Unless you're going to insist that kids shut up altogether, you'll just have to put up with the annoyance."

 

:iagree: You need to read Sayers watching her face carefully for any time her tongue is firmly in her cheek. ;)

[Bluegoat]

It's a joke.

 

I like Sayer's writing myself.