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Lyn

Word of caution about Hillsdale College

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Very informative discussion about deposits. I had no idea that the college board had these guidelines.

 

In our instance we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school. So I am not sure if those particular schools have different policies than the norm. Very confusing.

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I have a hard time being bound by informal agreements with an industry that...

 

we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school.

 

These two comments are exactly why I was questioning why double depositing is considered unethical. It seemed to me like an *industry* that puts undue pressure on parents and students, and I don't think that's fair.

 

I can understand now, though, why it would be unethical after May 1.

 

Lyn, this whole thread has been very informative for me. Thank you for posting your review, and good luck to your son in his next season of life.

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What do you believe is unethical and wrong about making admissions deposits at more than one school?

 

In case some don't care to read the link, here's the cut and pasted info:

 

Double deposits

 

Double depositing means putting down a deposit, and thus accepting admission, at more than one college. Since a student can’t attend multiple colleges, it is considered unethical. Why might students and families do this, considering that it would mean forfeiting one deposit? The main reasons are:

 

  • To buy time to decide on a college when the student has been accepted by more than one. The usual decision deadline is May 1; by double depositing, a student can delay deciding until fall.
  • To continue negotiating financial aid offers with more than one college past the May 1 decision deadline.
  • Because the student is on a waiting list at one college and wants to ensure enrollment somewhere in case of being turned down. This scenario is the only one in which NACAC considers double depositing acceptable.

Why is double depositing unethical?

 

It's deceitful. Students know they can only attend one college, so they are essentially lying when they notify more than one that they intend to enroll.

It's unfair to the college. If the practice continues, colleges may find they can't predict the size of the incoming class with any accuracy. They may take actions such as enlarging the waiting list or increasing deposit amounts (both of which will impact future applicants).

It's unfair to other applicants. The double depositor is taking up a spot that could go to another student, who will instead be put on a waiting list or turned down.

What should you do?

 

 

  • Tell students not to submit deposits to more than one college, unless they are wait-listed at their first choice and accepted at another.
  • Consider instituting a policy of sending each student's final transcript to only one college.
  • Warn students that some colleges reserve the right to rescind an offer of admission if they discover that a student has made a double deposit.

 

 

 

Then Frank drops out of the CC because he isn't challenged, goes to work at Walmart, decides that life is horrible and can't support himself, so he turns to a life of crime. After four years he holds up the convenience store where Joe is working because he has commitment issues and can't find a job after getting his degree from school B. He's confused because he can't put a deposit on a job and decide later. Frank robs him and get 25.49 in cash and 3-5 years in jail.

 

Moral of the story, decide, pay one deposit, your future may depend upon it. :tongue_smilie: (okay the last part is embellished, but hey I'm bored)

 

:lol::lol: LOVE IT!

 

 

I can think of only one scenario where a kid might put a deposit down (housing *and* "I'm coming") at his second-choice school -- if he's applying overseas and won't hear for sure until July from the overseas school. In this case the kid would put a deposit down at *one* school, with the full intention of enrolling there if the overseas opportunity doesn't pan out. We might be in this situation in a few years, and I'd feel uneasy doing it, but the alternative would be to potentially have nowhere to go ... I wonder if you could be up-front about it ...

 

I believe this is ok... ;)

 

 

I have a hard time being bound by informal agreements with an industry that sets price based on searching through my bank accounts. Or that will admit students, but tell them they can't register for a semester or a year.

 

Aid - need based and merit based - is equivalent of getting a sponsorship. Someone else is paying for you to go to college. If merit aid, then they want to see evidence of your qualifications. Ditto that with need-based aid. The sticker price is the same for all who choose not to go for any aid due to not wanting to substantiate information. Otherwise, human nature has proven over and over again that a fair number of people wouldn't be truthful if no substantiation is required. It may be a pain, but if I want others to sponsor my guys, they'll show they are in the categories that qualify.

 

IF people wouldn't double deposit, chances are, more colleges would get a better grasp on yield and not end up needing to defer people. The VERY FEW colleges (always state colleges I think) who have deferred accepted students had lower yields in prior years and were going off those numbers. Chances are that they had a variable for those who put in deposits, then pulled out. When that variable significantly changed, it messed them up. If they didn't need that variable because people could be trusted, it would sure help.

 

Just a thought...

I often hear homeschooling parents say they want their students treated like other applicants. We want to be held to the same, not different standards. We want our transcripts respected. We don't want extra requirements, like taking the GRE, heaped on to our kids. So, I say as parent guidance counselors we should be expected to follow the same level of ethical conduct as other guidance counselors (or perhaps even higher because we have just our kids and we are modeling for them). While some parents may not realize double depositing is unethical, it is behavior that is widely considered in the field of college admissions to be unacceptable.

 

One thing that restricts many traditional school attending students from double depositing is that guidance counselors may find out and report them. The double deposit may be discovered when the counselor is asked to send a final transcript to more than one school. Absolutely there are colleges who will rescind offers if double deposits are discovered. Perhaps homeschoolers are less likely to be caught because there isn't an guidance counselor watching out, but that still doesn't make double deposits ethical.

 

And, really, at a certain point I see it as positive thing to teach kids that it is time to make a decision and just be done. The college admissions process is already WAY TOO LONG without dragging it past May 1.

 

:iagree: Great post!

 

Very informative discussion about deposits. I had no idea that the college board had these guidelines.

 

In our instance we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school. So I am not sure if those particular schools have different policies than the norm. Very confusing.

 

And this is why I wanted to post on this one part. I think many people do it not realizing what is going on. I'm hoping to help folks in the future. If these schools had refundable policies up until May 1st, I think you were fine. ;) You would be within their rules as long as you let them know by May 1st. They weren't counting their numbers as they went along as many schools do - they were counting solely at the end. After May 1st would mess up their numbers.

 

A "true" double deposit offender makes up their mind mid-summer - or sometimes - right before school starts. There's seldom a good reason anyone needs to take that long to make a decision (waitlist and overseas being exceptions). These folks are those who make the major problems.

 

That said, I do know some colleges (especially higher end) will rescind offers if they find out applicants have double deposited. Be wary if choosing to do it. You may end up with nowhere to go. I suspect they want to make a statement as well as not have the hassle of wondering if they are the first choice or not. Then there's the whole ethical issue - is that a trait of a student they WANT to accept?

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Aid - need based and merit based - is equivalent of getting a sponsorship. Someone else is paying for you to go to college. If merit aid, then they want to see evidence of your qualifications. Ditto that with need-based aid. The sticker price is the same for all who choose not to go for any aid due to not wanting to substantiate information. Otherwise, human nature has proven over and over again that a fair number of people wouldn't be truthful if no substantiation is required. It may be a pain, but if I want others to sponsor my guys, they'll show they are in the categories that qualify.

 

 

On one hand I agree with your point about the money and on the other I do not.

 

Yes, in many instances, financial aid is the school granting scholarships to deserving students. In the sense that the money comes from their endowments it is theirs to encumber as they see fit.

 

On the other hand, there is a strong feel of the car dealership to looking at school costs. A sticker price that is quite high, but that few seem to actually pay. Discounts that are partly based on fixed programs and partly based on the dealer's assessment of what is needed to hook the customer. Additional fees or higher prices attached to subsequent service recoup the earlier discount. (Was the Kia dealer offering me a sponsorship to buy a Sedona or was he trying to close a sale.)

 

I'm not arguing in favor of violating the guidelines listed on the College Board sheet. But I do have a hard time dredging up a lot of empathy for colleges and universities. It is an industry, despite their non-profit status. And I tend to feel quite cynical about the process and especially the financial side of it. (Crazy U had some great chapters about the subtle ways colleges game rankings for example. Cutting academics while expanding football would be another soap box issue for me.)

 

We will probably fall into the hole of the doughnut. We make too much to garner much aid and have saved far too much over the years. But we don't make enough or have enough saved to just pay for college without aid. We are just the sort of customer that will be over a barrel - agreeing with the need for college enough that we will probably end up taking more loans out than I'd like to get my kids through the process.

 

It's why I tend to be very skeptical about some colleges, where I just don't see that their educational value added justifies the expense of their sticker price. (Most of the Ivies probably fall into this category for me.) I'm not much interested in going into hock to fund an educational experience that will equip my kids to despise their parents, know less about history and civics than when they entered or think that tenting in urban areas is a good use of their time.

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MMM... Letourneau said to turn in the deposit as soon as possible, but that you had until May 1st to get it back if you changed your mind. But that they could find more scholarships if they had the deposit...

 

LeTourneau will be a safety for us. So would it be bad to turn in the deposit if we didn't know for sure what we were going to do. The lady that spoke to our homeschool group seemed to view it as nonbinding...

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MMM... Letourneau said to turn in the deposit as soon as possible, but that you had until May 1st to get it back if you changed your mind. But that they could find more scholarships if they had the deposit...

 

LeTourneau will be a safety for us. So would it be bad to turn in the deposit if we didn't know for sure what we were going to do. The lady that spoke to our homeschool group seemed to view it as nonbinding...

 

So if you pay a deposit do they actually cash the check? Will this turn into another method of school making money? If they accept non-binding deposits and deposit them, they aren't just sitting there I'm sure. They're probably in an investment account drawing interest. So the college earns interest off your non-binding deposit for what, six months? I'm not a numbers person, but how much could a school made off that? Surely enough to take the gamble of whether you'll attend or not.

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I have no experience but I find it unethical as it's like saving seats at an event. People are not showing up (not making decisions) and it's not allowing those that show up early/on time to have a better choice.

 

In the UK, all universities receive applications through a central clearing house, called UCAS. A pupil can choose up to five universities. His/her common application is considered by all the universities at the same time, and the universities make offers through UCAS. The pupil can accept two universities - because final exam results are not in at that stage - so most hold onto an aspirational university and a safety. When the exam results come in these go automatically to UCAS and the pupil is accepted. So:

 

  • In October, the pupil makes common application to UCAS, choosing Oxford, Bristol, Bath, York and Dundee universities to study English.
     
  • The universities look at all the applications (forwarded from UCAS), including the personal statements and the expected exam scores, then make conditional offers, usually in the spring.
     
  • The pupil chooses one aspirational and one safety, maybe Oxford and Dundee.
     
  • In June the pupil takes exams and in August receives the results.
     
  • The university receives the results and sends out joining instructions. The pupil goes off to university in the autumn: Oxford if the results are good, Dundee if not.

 

Laura

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Ah, but we like repetition, extra work, inefficiencies, and uniquely American solutions, and dislike sharing, so we'd never dream of learning from anyone else. Besides, every college has an utterly unique applications, so that would never work.

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Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

We've paid $200-$300. Private and state. State was higher. Housing deposit runs about same.

Yolanda

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Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

My daughter is now finishing up her junior year in college. I believe the deposit we paid was $500.00.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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I'm not arguing in favor of violating the guidelines listed on the College Board sheet. But I do have a hard time dredging up a lot of empathy for colleges and universities. It is an industry, despite their non-profit status. And I tend to feel quite cynical about the process and especially the financial side of it.

 

 

Maybe it helps to think more about the individuals involved in the process both the administrators and the students. I don't believe college admissions officers are all mean people - in fact I bet most of them are perfectly nice people doing a very difficult job. They are tasked with trying to make wild guesses about how many students will choose to go to a college.

 

Let's take an example: Say they have room for 2,500 students, but get 10,000 applicants. In that situation how may would you accept? If too few enroll you are in a precarious position financially and costs need to rise on the students who do attend. Also, you've just denied students the opportunity to be educated at a school you believe in. If you enroll too many then you've got freshman who can't get housing and can't get into the intro courses they need.

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

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Yes, in many instances, financial aid is the school granting scholarships to deserving students. In the sense that the money comes from their endowments it is theirs to encumber as they see fit.

 

On the other hand, there is a strong feel of the car dealership to looking at school costs. A sticker price that is quite high, but that few seem to actually pay. Discounts that are partly based on fixed programs and partly based on the dealer's assessment of what is needed to hook the customer. Additional fees or higher prices attached to subsequent service recoup the earlier discount. (Was the Kia dealer offering me a sponsorship to buy a Sedona or was he trying to close a sale.)

 

Of course colleges want those they accept to come there. The more they want you, the more they will offer (usually). I, personally, see nothing wrong with that and use that fact to try to make my guys attractive to places they apply. If one has enough money to be full pay, they can skip that part and just make their students attractive enough to get in.

 

 

Cutting academics while expanding football would be another soap box issue for me.

 

 

:iagree: Neither of the schools my older two have chosen are big with sports and I kind of like it that way.

 

 

We will probably fall into the hole of the doughnut. We make too much to garner much aid and have saved far too much over the years. But we don't make enough or have enough saved to just pay for college without aid. We are just the sort of customer that will be over a barrel - agreeing with the need for college enough that we will probably end up taking more loans out than I'd like to get my kids through the process.

 

It's why I tend to be very skeptical about some colleges, where I just don't see that their educational value added justifies the expense of their sticker price. (Most of the Ivies probably fall into this category for me.) I'm not much interested in going into hock to fund an educational experience that will equip my kids to despise their parents, know less about history and civics than when they entered or think that tenting in urban areas is a good use of their time.

 

:iagree: And we've chosen our schools accordingly. There are many different atmospheres for schools. School A = School B is a fallacy.

 

MMM... Letourneau said to turn in the deposit as soon as possible, but that you had until May 1st to get it back if you changed your mind. But that they could find more scholarships if they had the deposit...

 

LeTourneau will be a safety for us. So would it be bad to turn in the deposit if we didn't know for sure what we were going to do. The lady that spoke to our homeschool group seemed to view it as nonbinding...

 

If it's non-binding, sure, send it in if you want to (but you don't have to). However, as soon as you send in a deposit to a school you like better without the non-binding agreement you'd best ask for your deposit from LeTourneau back. ;) If you decide to stay with LeTourneau - enjoy!

 

Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

We paid $300 for oldest and $700 for middle. All I've personally seen have been in the $200 - $700 range, but not long ago someone told me $900. I've forgotten which school though. Furman even considered theirs ($500) to be a security deposit the student receives back when they leave the school. The others were put toward the first year bill.

 

Besides, every college has an utterly unique applications, so that would never work.

 

Um, no. Ever heard of the Common Application? Many schools use it with just a short supplement. Some schools have their own applications. More and more are signing up for the Common App each year.

 

I don't mind the way US apps are done. The Common App this year had us Guidance Counselors fill out a survey telling whether or not we feel how many colleges one can send the app to should be limited. I voted yes. I do think people who apply to oodles of colleges don't help the situation when they can only attend one. Others differ in their thoughts, of course. YMMV.

 

 

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

 

:iagree: you word things very well. I've yet to meet anyone in college admissions who I haven't liked. I know I'm a tolerant person, but... they are all trying to do the best by their school and students. Most feel sorry for students they need to reject.

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:iagree: you word things very well. I've yet to meet anyone in college admissions who I haven't liked. I know I'm a tolerant person, but... they are all trying to do the best by their school and students. Most feel sorry for students they need to reject.

 

I think this is a significant broader point about college admissions that is important beyond just this discussion of double deposits. Being able to think about admissions officers as real people, nice people trying to do a good job, may really help us do our jobs as parents/guidance counselors. Thinking about it from their perspective does make it easier to approach putting together admissions materials in a way that is positive and communicates a good attitude.

 

Especially for those of us who have homeschooled forever, it is really tough to have the loss of control that comes with admissions. It is hard to feel like your efforts are being judged and your kid may not get what he or she wants. It is good to think about those feelings but not let them bubble over into negativity that really can come through in applications.

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They will state in their acceptance letter that to guarantee a place at May 1 you need to make a deposit and if you change your mind prior to that date your deposit is refundable.

 

If these schools had refundable policies up until May 1st, I think you were fine. ;) You would be within their rules as long as you let them know by May 1st.

 

I think she already knew that, and tried to explain near the beginning of your tangent about double deposits.

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Maybe it helps to think more about the individuals involved in the process both the administrators and the students. I don't believe college admissions officers are all mean people - in fact I bet most of them are perfectly nice people doing a very difficult job. They are tasked with trying to make wild guesses about how many students will choose to go to a college.

 

Let's take an example: Say they have room for 2,500 students, but get 10,000 applicants. In that situation how may would you accept? If too few enroll you are in a precarious position financially and costs need to rise on the students who do attend. Also, you've just denied students the opportunity to be educated at a school you believe in. If you enroll too many then you've got freshman who can't get housing and can't get into the intro courses they need.

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

 

I didn't say that I think admissions reps are mean. FWIW, I am in the admissions information program for one of my alma maters. And yes, I do spend a lot of time and energy thinking through who would be the best fit. I not only want to find students who will be great at my school, but also find those who will survive the process all the way to graduation and not just the first semester or first two years.

 

But I also know that some good and even great kids will be turned down because we already have too many kids from their part of the country or too many with their general stats. And since we have 10-20 applications for every open slot, the school can be very picky.

 

But I think it's important to realize that while a college and a student have goals that overlap, they don't necessarily have the same goals.

 

(FWIW, I'm not justifying the double deposits, when they violate a specific agreement with the school. I'm just saying that I do think that the school is marketing a product to me.)

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I didn't say that I think admissions reps are mean.

 

My apologies... I was more responding to the general sentiment I have heard from many parents. I just think it is in our kids' best interests to try to keep a positive attitude about intentions. I'm sure we'd all agree the system is far from ideal in a lot of ways.

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Um, no. Ever heard of the Common Application? Many schools use it with just a short supplement. Some schools have their own applications. More and more are signing up for the Common App each year.

 

Um, yes. I was speaking tongue in cheek.

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Um, yes. I was speaking tongue in cheek.

 

Sorry! :D I come across a lot of parents that don't realize it as it didn't exist in "their day."

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My apologies... I was more responding to the general sentiment I have heard from many parents. I just think it is in our kids' best interests to try to keep a positive attitude about intentions. I'm sure we'd all agree the system is far from ideal in a lot of ways.

 

No problem.

 

And I imagine that my name is not always spoken of gently. I always am polite, but if a student asks me to be honest with him, I will tell him that a lack of physics/chemistry/calculus or at least pre calc/leadership examples/sports or other physical activity/SAT scores will not serve him well in comparison to other candidates.

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Life threatening allergies certainly qualify as a disability. Food preferences do not. My dd, who does have life threatening allergies, has a emergency procedure letter from her allergist, along with six medications that need to be given to her if she gets it (right now, it is stung by a wasp but she is rapidly developing similar strong reactions to citric acid.).

 

Look, I prefer milk without rbgh and no hfcs and no transfats. I am well aware that while I have the money and resources to pay to get these items, while my kids are in the early adulthood, it is very unlikely they can afford (both in the time shopping and monetarily) such preferences.

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Life threatening allergies certainly qualify as a disability. Food preferences do not. My dd, who does have life threatening allergies, has a emergency procedure letter from her allergist, along with six medications that need to be given to her if she gets it (right now, it is stung by a wasp but she is rapidly developing similar strong reactions to citric acid.).

 

Look, I prefer milk without rbgh and no hfcs and no transfats. I am well aware that while I have the money and resources to pay to get these items, while my kids are in the early adulthood, it is very unlikely they can afford (both in the time shopping and monetarily) such preferences.

 

Chris:

 

 

The point I was trying to make earlier is that it is not unreasonable to expect healthy food from a school. There are more and more schools offering rbgh free milk, transfat free oils and even grass fed beef.

 

For us this is important and would be even if my son did not have allergies. Ten years or maybe even five years ago this would have been very difficult if not impossible to find on a college campus, but it is much more mainstream now.

 

The rub with Hillsdale is the fact that they seemed so intent on hiding the fact that they did not offer what I was looking for. Frankly, if I loved everything else about a school and was convinced that they were sincerely looking to make their food offerings more healthy, I would not cross them off my list. Ultimately, it is the hiding of facts that is most disturbing. Like I said, if they believe that their food service program is great the way it is, and don't want to be bothered with parents who have such concerns, why not post what they actually use on their website for all to see.

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I really had to chuckle about this...Grove City, a college very much like Hillsdale in curriculum and the fact that they don't accept public funds, uses Bon Appetit for its food service. This means that they too have no trans fats, no hormones in their milk or beef etc.

 

http://www.cafebonappetit.com/menu/your-cafe/grovecity'>http://www.cafebonappetit.com/menu/your-cafe/grovecity

 

You can search a college's name right here on the Bon Appetit site to see if they are a client.

 

http://www.cafebonappetit.com/

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Just wanted to post the following form Patrick Henry's FAQ page under its camps.

 

What is the food service like?

Food is served in the PHC dining commons and is provided by BON APPÉTIT Management Company. BON APPÉTIT was named #1 College Food Service in the country by the Princeton Review (2001) and was recipient of SAMCEDA’s Award of Excellence for service to the community (2006).

 

What about special dietary needs or allergies?

Special dietary needs are accommodated. Campers with special needs must advise camp staff both through the Health Form and upon registration.

 

So for parents who are looking for a conservative and possible Christian College who values the health and well being of students enough to offer some great dietary choices and accommodation for allergies etc. Here is a list worth considering:

 

Patrick Henry

Wheaton

Hope College

Grove City

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Just wanted to post the following form Patrick Henry's FAQ page under its camps.

 

What is the food service like?

Food is served in the PHC dining commons and is provided by BON APPÉTIT Management Company. BON APPÉTIT was named #1 College Food Service in the country by the Princeton Review (2001) and was recipient of SAMCEDA’s Award of Excellence for service to the community (2006).

 

What about special dietary needs or allergies?

Special dietary needs are accommodated. Campers with special needs must advise camp staff both through the Health Form and upon registration.

 

So for parents who are looking for a conservative and possible Christian College who values the health and well being of students enough to offer some great dietary choices and accommodation for allergies etc. Here is a list worth considering:

 

Patrick Henry

Wheaton

Hope College

Grove City

 

Hope is a conservative Christian college? I always see them on lists of liberal Christian colleges. I have no personal knowledge as they were never one we looked at, but this just seems to contradict what I've seen listed elsewhere - probably on college confidential.

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Hope is a conservative Christian college? I always see them on lists of liberal Christian colleges. I have no personal knowledge as they were never one we looked at, but this just seems to contradict what I've seen listed elsewhere - probably on college confidential.

 

We toured Hope and I didn't run across anything that stuck me as overly liberal. Their chapel services are definitely contemporary. They have held the line on their views of homosexuality which is consistent with the Dutch Reformed Church. I am not intimately familiar with the teachings of the Dutch Reformed Church so perhaps there is something in there that some could construe as liberal. Didn't see any classes that struck me as bizarre.

 

Maybe some consider them liberal. Don't really know. Maybe someone who has a student there could offer something more definitive.

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We toured Hope and I didn't run across anything that stuck me as overly liberal. Their chapel services are definitely contemporary. They have held the line on their views of homosexuality which is consistent with the Dutch Reformed Church. I am not intimately familiar with the teachings of the Dutch Reformed Church so perhaps there is something in there that some could construe as liberal. Didn't see any classes that struck me as bizarre.

 

Maybe some consider them liberal. Don't really know. Maybe someone who has a student there could offer something more definitive.

 

Hope is affiliated with the Reformed Church of America if that is helpful to anyone who wants to look further into the beliefs and philosophies. There are some differences between the various denominations that come from this tradition.

 

I agree people define liberal and conservative differently so it is hard question to give a single answer. Personally I would classify Hope as a conservative college, but some others such as Calvin are more conservative. In its advertisements for professors, Calvin advertises that they only hire Christian faculty. Hope specifies that they'd like faculty to uphold the mission of the college and they are interested in a diverse faculty and follow federal nondiscrimination laws. They do have faculty members who are not Christian.

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In its advertisements for professors, Calvin advertises that they only hire Christian faculty. Hope specifies that they'd like faculty to uphold the mission of the college and they are interested in a diverse faculty and follow federal nondiscrimination laws. They do have faculty members who are not Christian.

 

I suspect this is the difference. Many who choose Christian colleges expect profs to be Christian even if they all aren't from the exact same cookie cutter mold.

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My son is going to Hope and we have several friends here who have sent their kids there. I would not put them up there with Wheaton as a conservative Christian college. However, the student body is more conservative than your average college (even some so-called Catholic stalwarts such as Notre Dame and Georgetown.) What we like about it is that they have a very strong science department (tons of undergraduate research opportunities) and that it is a place that is unapologetic about being Christian, but open enough to be welcoming of students of a variety of faith traditions. We are Catholic so we definitely don't fit the mold of conservative Christian that the other schools mentioned would appeal to. We felt that it was a place where it was easy to follow your faith, even if it was different than the church that they affiilate with. My son likes that it is a dry campus as he has no desire to spend lots of time around stupid drunk people:).

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What we like about it is that they have a very strong science department (tons of undergraduate research opportunities).

 

The science facilities and research opportunities are very strong and that can be a difficult thing to find at a small liberal arts college.

 

Best of luck to your son!

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Yes, PHC's food is pretty good. Love the salad bar.

 

Just wanted to post the following form Patrick Henry's FAQ page under its camps.

 

What is the food service like?

Food is served in the PHC dining commons and is provided by BON APPÉTIT Management Company. BON APPÉTIT was named #1 College Food Service in the country by the Princeton Review (2001) and was recipient of SAMCEDA’s Award of Excellence for service to the community (2006).

 

What about special dietary needs or allergies?

Special dietary needs are accommodated. Campers with special needs must advise camp staff both through the Health Form and upon registration.

 

So for parents who are looking for a conservative and possible Christian College who values the health and well being of students enough to offer some great dietary choices and accommodation for allergies etc. Here is a list worth considering:

 

Patrick Henry

Wheaton

Hope College

Grove City

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When looking at a college it is always a good idea to look at their financials. A good place to look is charity navigator.

 

Here is a link to charity charity navigators info on Hillsdale College:

 

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3823

 

Your can see that an unusually large percentage of their budget goes to their president's salary of 1.9 million. This is way out of skew with similar colleges. Just look up Grove City College. Also, lots and lots of money is spent on marketing at Hillsdale. You can use charity navigator to look up other colleges and compare...then draw your own conclusions.

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I concur, most university/college towns have problems between the townies and the school kids. The first time I heard it was at Smith.

 

 

Yep. I went to St. Mary's College of MD. We called the people who didn't go to the college "townies". Unless they were in the Navy (we had a Naval Air Station nearby). However, it was somewhat "cool" to date a townie or a Navy guy.

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I agree that many of the students who would have been accepted a number of years ago would now no longer be accepted. The college came to the realization that their retention was low. The students they were accepting were not capable of the high level of academic work. So, they made the concerted effort to raise their ACT scores by a huge jump. Just their Honors Program ACT score went from a 30 to a 32, with a corresponding raise for scholarships. Their retention numbers went from somewhere in the 70s to the 90s if my memory serves me well. As a sidenote, their swim team improved a great deal too... :D

 

 

I just wanted to respond to this bit, because I'm finding the opposite to be true. I think the issue is a tiny bit more complex than scores — the economy and the prevalence of severe mental health issues are also playing a role here. Retention is a huge issue, yes, but many small LACs (I work at one) are finding that they must accept anyone who has a remote chance of success because they are desperate to fill the beds. They are casting a very wide net. So I think they standards are actually going the other way and that it is actually *easier* to get into many small LACs.

 

Also, many schools sell themselves as being a place where "we will take care of your child." So many students who have severe issues who wouldn't have gone to college at all twenty or even ten years ago actually have a shot at a college education, because of the availability of medications and improved mental health care facilities on campuses. (There was an article recently, perhaps in the chronicle, that reported that something like 10% of the students who present at campus health facilities have very severe problems, bipolar disorder, etc. — a dramatic increase over the last decade.) And then there is the Adderall addiction issue, too, which is affecting retention and money spent on health services. (Another article recently addresses this, too — I'll see if I can find that for you kids.) This is partly why the nonchalance about food issues surprises me. It seems entirely valid to expect a professional response to inquiries about food, and for there to be adequate choices for students with many different needs, especially in a climate where families are paying so much money to send a child to a private school.

 

The OP made several excellent points. I wanted to respond to some other remarks, but need to scoot out the door. I'm sorry if this is disjointed.

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Thought I'd toss in our experience with the deposits - when DS first applied, one school (Carthage, in WI) responded the next week with an acceptance and pressure to put in a deposit ASAP as the kids would be prioritized for housing on a first-paid, first selected basis. The deposit was refundable if the student decided to not attend after all. But they pressured us to make that $300 in NOVEMBER! To insure he'd get in a decent dorm, and not end up sharing a motel room a long bus-ride away from campus (where some students were placed). So some schools do ask for a deposit before May 1st - although refundable.

No - DS did not go there, and they did refund the $$.

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When looking at a college it is always a good idea to look at their financials. A good place to look is charity navigator.

 

Here is a link to charity charity navigators info on Hillsdale College:

 

http://www.charityna...mary&orgid=3823

 

Your can see that an unusually large percentage of their budget goes to their president's salary of 1.9 million. This is way out of skew with similar colleges. Just look up Grove City College. Also, lots and lots of money is spent on marketing at Hillsdale. You can use charity navigator to look up other colleges and compare...then draw your own conclusions.

 

I see you're still warning folks off of Hillsdale--did your student find a good spot with all that he'd hoped for??

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Nicole:

 

I too was surprised about the nonchalance about food, but the number of posts in this vein is rather small so perhaps it is not really representative. So many colleges have improved food quality and have realized that it directly impacts their students health, behavior and performance.

 

Margaret:

 

It is that college selection time of year and this is a very widely read thread with lots of good info. It even provides food for thought ( no pun intended) for parents who are not even looking at Hillsdale.

 

Often parents and students are overwhelmed during the college selection process and forget that the quality of the administration will impact the student. It is important to look at the school's financials, their food service, placement department, special needs depts., etc..

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I have no dog in this fight, but I question whether the $1.9 million does not have an explanation behind if. If you Google the issue, there are numerous articles that pop up discussing his salary in the $500,000-600,000 range. The $1.9 million is nowhere even close to that, obviously. Perhaps, and this happens occasionally, he had a big deferred compensation payout in 2011. If so, the contributions to that deferred comp plan would have been included in previous years' figures as well, so the bulk of the excess would have been counted twice, over the entire term of his presidency. I don't know, of course, but this amount is so far out of line that my first thought would be that there is a likely explanation, not to warn everyone away. Of course Hillsdale has not committed the grievous offense of not accepting my chiropractor's note about my kid's allergies or served me non-organic dairy products, so take my speculation with a grain of salt.

 

 

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Of course Hillsdale has not committed the grievous offense of not accepting my chiropractor's note about my kid's allergies or served me non-organic dairy products, so take my speculation with a grain of salt.

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

 

 

Considering the amount of alum donations that Arnn brings in every year, he's earning his keep.

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