Word of caution about Hillsdale College

[creekland]

Why are so many posters feeling so defensive about Hillsdale?? I know absolutely zero about this school. But obviously there is something about it that has made people very emotional about it. How different is it for Lyn to make her statements than it is for a totally new poster, someone who knows NOTHING about these boards or this community, show up to tell us how wonderful Hillsdale is??

 

I'm headed now to Hillsdale's site to find out what the "issue" is.

 

I don't think the issue is conservative/liberal or anything like it. I see the same thing coming up if anyone speaks poorly of online colleges, community colleges, state colleges, or private colleges (essentially - any college experience).

 

What is happening is people are defending their choices. I strongly suspect you'd see the same reaction for college XXX if we had people on here who went there and someone else totally dissing it just like we get when people talk about groups of colleges.

 

When I write my reviews I try to point out positives and negatives about places knowing full well that each place has a group that "fits" them and a group that does not. I think working in a public high school and seeing so many students head to such varying places and listening to their "whys" helps me see the differences. The vast majority who give reviews (on this site as well as any college review site) just give their opinion - pro or con - in a similar manner as we all have our preferences for types of college experiences to start with.

 

I read a lot about colleges when people post things on here. I now know far more about Hillsdale than I ever did before. It could be useful when making recommendations in the future. It all depends upon the student/family and fit.

[creekland]

My ds was accepted early app. he was pretty sure that was where he wanted to go (probably because he knew so many others there), but we placed deposits with other schools that he was accepted to just in case. In the end we are glad we did.

 

Just so others know, if he applied early decision, that was binding and he should be going there. If it was early action, that's not binding and all is well. However, DEPOSITS at more than one school is not ok unless it's just housing deposits and not "I'm going to be going there" deposits (which most deposits are). If schools find out you put a deposit down at more than one place MANY will rescind their acceptances. DON'T do this! It's unethical. You have until May 1st to choose or later in the case that you are coming off a waitlist. Once you choose, then you send in the deposit for that ONE school and let the others know you won't be attending. If you come off a waitlist, you generally forfeit your deposit to the first school, but it's ethically accepted - unlike multiple deposits.

 

Once one sends in an "I'm going there" deposit the school counts on you attending and it makes a difference for future acceptances from applications and waitlists.

 

Not that I want to change the focus of this thread, but Jen's post made me realize others are reading and learning so I thought it could be important to mention this aspect for future knowledge (at Hillsdale or wherever).

[Teachin'Mine]

Just so others know, if he applied early decision, that was binding and he should be going there. If it was early action, that's not binding and all is well. However, DEPOSITS at more than one school is not ok unless it's just housing deposits and not "I'm going to be going there" deposits (which most deposits are). If schools find out you put a deposit down at more than one place MANY will rescind their acceptances. DON'T do this! It's unethical. You have until May 1st to choose or later in the case that you are coming off a waitlist. Once you choose, then you send in the deposit for that ONE school and let the others know you won't be attending. If you come off a waitlist, you generally forfeit your deposit to the first school, but it's ethically accepted - unlike multiple deposits.

 

Once one sends in an "I'm going there" deposit the school counts on you attending and it makes a difference for future acceptances from applications and waitlists.

 

Not that I want to change the focus of this thread, but Jen's post made me realize others are reading and learning so I thought it could be important to mention this aspect for future knowledge (at Hillsdale or wherever).

 

Thank you - good info!

[Jen500]

Just so others know, if he applied early decision, that was binding and he should be going there. If it was early action, that's not binding and all is well. However, DEPOSITS at more than one school is not ok unless it's just housing deposits and not "I'm going to be going there" deposits (which most deposits are). If schools find out you put a deposit down at more than one place MANY will rescind their acceptances. DON'T do this! It's unethical. You have until May 1st to choose or later in the case that you are coming off a waitlist. Once you choose, then you send in the deposit for that ONE school and let the others know you won't be attending. If you come off a waitlist, you generally forfeit your deposit to the first school, but it's ethically accepted - unlike multiple deposits.

 

Once one sends in an "I'm going there" deposit the school counts on you attending and it makes a difference for future acceptances from applications and waitlists.

 

Not that I want to change the focus of this thread, but Jen's post made me realize others are reading and learning so I thought it could be important to mention this aspect for future knowledge (at Hillsdale or wherever).

 

Thank you, I really do appreciate information like this. I don't want to wait until 11th/12th grade and be overwhelmed. OTOH I realize some things will be different by the time mine are off to college.

[mommaduck]

As a mother with two children that deal with food issues, I would NOT expect a college to cater to my children. They will be adults. They will be responsible. One has been to a private highschool. We did not quiz and expect the school to cater to him. The other may be going to another private school. We merely clarified that packed lunches were acceptable (and pointed out that it would have to be at least for our child due to her medical issues). I never stated that the school had to change their menu or produce something separately. I would figure that an adult student could go into town and make decent choices for their own meals. Could they not keep a small fridge in their room? Is there not a common area where they could possibly cook a meal? Can they not eat in town? If none of these things, then, yes, the school would be out. But I would not be irate about it. Disappointed, but nothing more.

 

Also, most institutions use commonly accepted milk and lettuce. Very few cater to organic and healthier choices. That is left to the pocket of the students to go search for, find, and buy on their own. Also, a chiropractor deals with certain issues. Allergies are in the range of a medical doctor (MD or OD as previously stated). Given how many chiropractors are quacks that claim to be a cure-all physician, I would not accept something from them either.

 

I agree with the other brown haired, eye glass wearing mama...if only I could wake up looking as put together as Sarah Palin! (some things I like about her and some I don't...but dang, she knows how to pull it together!)

Edited May 9, 2012 by mommaduck

[Colleen in NS]

Don't forget that this institution does not have a whistle blower policy.

 

What is a whistle blower policy?

[Teachin'Mine]

What is a whistle blower policy?

 

Colleen if you google, there's lots of universities which give their policy. It's in place to allow people at the university to raise issues without fear of reprisal. Here's one as an example:

 

http://hr.osu.edu/policy/policy140.pdf

[Karenciavo]

I have no dog in this race, but one thing I've found in my two college searches so far is that one can find staunch supporters and detractors from every single college out there. It's important to read pros and cons, then consider what is important to the individual. It's also important to visit places and get your own feel.

 

So true. The school my oldest attends seems to be a lightening rod for opinions from all sides. We have found a majority of the opinions to be either outright false (usually this) or at least not something that we are troubled by (sometimes that.) We hesitated briefly until we visited because of the negative comments. I love the school now and wish all my children could attend but really, at this point it's probably only a good fit for my oldest. I'm praying hard that they expand their program in the next 9 years to accommodate my STEM geared son. :D

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen if you google' date=' there's lots of universities which give their policy. It's in place to allow people at the university to raise issues without fear of reprisal. Here's one as an example:

 

http://hr.osu.edu/policy/policy140.pdf[/quote']

 

Thank you - that was eye-opening!

 

I wonder why a college then wouldn't have one in place?

[Teachin'Mine]

Came across this link which verifies there is no whistle blower policy at Hillsdale:

 

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3823

 

Why wouldn't they have one? Can't think of a good reason, but I can think of many not so good reasons.

 

Now I'm off to google on some different colleges out of curiosity. :)

[Lyn]

In regards to the question on the whistle blower policy, I see that someone provided the answer, but here is a little background:

 

http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/employment091005.shtml

 

As you can see it is just good business practice to have such a policy in place. I'm in agreement with the comment that stated that there is no good reason not to have one, and some potentially bad reasons to avoid having one.

 

The comment about not having deposits with more than one college was not really accurate. There are in fact some colleges that offer more acceptances than spaces. They will state in their acceptance letter that to guarantee a place at May 1 you need to make a deposit and if you change your mind prior to that date your deposit is refundable. So different schools, different MO's.

 

It seems to me that some of the comments are being made by individuals who have not carefully read this thread. One example is the gal who would have her child with food sensitivities eat out of a fridge in his dorm room. Really!

 

First, you missed the part about Hillsdale avoiding my dining related inquiries, and then falsely answering the questions I posed about dining services. Had they answered my questions honestly from the beginning, we would have crossed them off our list, but it looked to me like a bait and switch tactic.

 

Second, what I require in regards to dining services has nothing to do with "organic produce". Where did that come from? Hillsdale is cooking with vegetable oils that contain trans-fats and serving milk that contains rgbh. This is not the standard in college food these days. See for yourself:

 

http://www.housing.umich.edu/dining/nutrition#livechat

 

http://www.cafebonappetit.com/our-ap...hen-principles

 

http://hope.edu/dining/

 

http://www.calvin.edu/admin/food/nutrition.html

 

Cafe Bon Appetit (see link above) manages the food service for a number of colleges. Now I realize that not everyone is health conscious when it comes to their eating habits, but there must be enough people demanding this level of healthiness in college food or there wouldn't be such a large number of institutions providing it.

 

One poster concluded that this is how they keep their tuition lower. Perhaps, but they should be up front with this info. when asked. Or why not put it on their website for all to read. When you think about it, would it cost that much more per student to use better milk and cooking oils. I really doubt it. However, at the end of the day I really wonder what else they are hiding.

 

Catherine, Stripe and Lenore, thanks for your wise words. On this board, especially, you wouldn't think these ladies employ argumentum ad hominem.

 

I suspect that some of the more nasty posts come from individuals with ties to Hillsdale because I can't imagine anyone getting in such a fluff over this topic. At this point, this thread has received more than 4,000 views so in retrospect the percentage of those posting vicious comments is pretty small.

[creekland]

 

The comment about not having deposits with more than one college was not really accurate. There are in fact some colleges that offer more acceptances than spaces. They will state in their acceptance letter that to guarantee a place at May 1 you need to make a deposit and if you change your mind prior to that date your deposit is refundable. So different schools, different MO's.

 

 

 

I'm still not really following you. More acceptances than spaces sounds like housing deposits, and yes, as I stated, those are a different issue than what most people think about with "deposits." Those also tend to be refundable.

 

Otherwise, a college that accepts a student is bound to allow them in. There have been a couple of "Wow" issues where a couple of schools have made some students defer their start until Jan due to over-enrollment, but those are very rare and not the norm. Not all schools have housing for every student - hence - housing deposits are required at some to ensure a place. This is not the majority of places, but is somewhat common.

 

That said, the "I'm going there" deposit that all schools have (all I know of anyway) and is due by May 1st goes to ONE school. Many colleges will send a notice trying to make one think they have to send in their deposit ASAP, but that's just slick advertising trying to get parents to commit so they will know their numbers sooner rather than later. In reality, by law, everyone has until May 1st to commit and insisting on otherwise (by the college) is illegal. Double (or triple) depositing is unethical and there are several colleges who will rescind admission if they catch wind of it.

 

I highly encourage anyone who wants to know what's going on with college applications, finances, deposits, and anything else, to start reading at College Confidential. You have to overlook the fact that many parents/students on there have super high stats and could make one question themselves, but other than that, there's a boatload of accurate information on the nuts and bolts of heading to college. If you look at the list of where kids actually go (or are accepted), it's not all Ivy level or equivalent, so there are plenty of us "average" people there too.

 

Their homeschooling info pales compared to here - as does their info about Christian colleges, but for the nuts and bolts of everything else (including things like pre-med, art, music, or other directions), it's a great resource.

 

But the bottom line here - don't double deposit. Double housing deposits are ok. Just make sure that's what you're making the deposit for. And if a college accepts you, you can attend there even if you wait until May 1st to decide that's where you want to go.

[creekland]

I figured 'tis best if I look it up for Hillsdale...

 

AND, it appears to be an admissions deposit... not just a housing deposit (since it says it's due whether or not one will be residing in campus housing).

 

However, it also looks like if you are later with it, you might not get housing. This is possibly not true, one would have to do more researching than I have time for. Most colleges will figure out housing if they have more commit than they expect.

 

The bottom line - if it's an admissions deposit, only one should have been made ethically. If you send it in, they are expecting you to come.

 

http://www.hillsdale.edu/admissions/admittedstudents/housing.asp

[Colleen in NS]

In regards to the question on the whistle blower policy, I see that someone provided the answer, but here is a little background:

 

http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/employment091005.shtml

 

As you can see it is just good business practice to have such a policy in place. I'm in agreement with the comment that stated that there is no good reason not to have one, and some potentially bad reasons to avoid having one.

 

 

Thank you, Lyn. And I agree with you.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Yolanda in Mass]

 

That said, the "I'm going there" deposit that all schools have (all I know of anyway) and is due by May 1st goes to ONE school. In reality, by law, everyone has until May 1st to commit and insisting on otherwise (by the college) is illegal. Double (or triple) depositing is unethical and there are several colleges who will rescind admission if they catch wind of it.

 

 

Just an FYI - it may be unethical, but in my neck of the woods (northeast Mass), lots of parents send "yes, I'm going there deposits" to more than one school and are more than willing to forfeit their deposit just to gain more time in the decision-making process. My neighbor was shocked to learn from other parents that it is rather common practice among parents in our town and these parents, in turn, were surprised that he had not done this.

 

Yolanda

[creekland]

There's definitely people with different ethical standards out there - no doubt about that.

 

Still, it helps if people know about it so they can make their own informed choice. Otherwise, many may not realize it's wrong. If they did it not realizing it was wrong and happened to be one colleges catch --> rescinded acceptance, then I'd feel badly. If they do it knowing it's wrong and get caught, I don't feel the least bit sorry for them.

[dirty ethel rackham]

As a mother with two children that deal with food issues, I would NOT expect a college to cater to my children. They will be adults. They will be responsible.

 

Well, since a majority of colleges seem to require that freshman live in the dorms and take the largest meal plan for the first semester, having to pay for food that my child could not eat would be unacceptable for me. I would hate to spend $3000 or more for food my child could not eat and have to spend more $$$ on food and transportation to appropriate grocery stores. Those dorm fridges are not that big and that would necessitate at least weekly inconvenient trips.

 

So, I would absolutely expect a college food service (not a small high school cafeteria) to have food choices that would work for my child. That alone would be reason to not send my child there. We did eliminate one school on the basis of food alone. My super skinny son is allergic to milk and suffers from hypoglycemia. Eating whole grains, protein and high quality vegetables are a priority for keeping him healthy. This school didn't have a single whole grain in the entire cafeteria, had iceberg lettuce in the salad bar plus lots of canned toppings and few fresh nutritious offerings. The entrees were very white carb heavy and not appetizing. The closest grocery store (with limited healthy options) was a bus ride away and the bus system into town wasn't very convenient.

[Catherine]

Different ethical standards and plenty of money to throw away, apparently!

[GMB]

I concur, most university/college towns have problems between the townies and the school kids. The first time I heard it was at Smith.

 

I agree. I experienced the same dynamic when I was in grad school at UVA: people who lived or went to school on grounds tended to look down on "townies" and vice versa. My dh noticed the same thing in law school 9 years earlier.

[Colleen in NS]

...DEPOSITS at more than one school is not ok ...DON'T do this! It's unethical. ...

 

...Double (or triple) depositing is unethical ...

 

if it's an admissions deposit, only one should have been made ethically.

 

What do you believe is unethical and wrong about making admissions deposits at more than one school? I've carefully read all you've said (and all Lyn wrote) about this so far, and I cannot figure it out. If a college uses deposits as a way of figuring out numbers in the next class/ranking a waitlist/etc, then I understand why a college might rescind an acceptance if it finds out about deposits made elsewhere - the college needs to get its planning done (but, isn't that why colleges require deposits - to get the student to invest so that he/she will hopefully follow through with attending and paying the rest of the tuition?). But I don't understand why it's wrong or unethical on the part of the student/parent to make deposits at more than one school. If students and/or parents will be paying tuition, shouldn't they be able to keep their options open?

 

I feel silly asking, but I just don't get what is so unethical and wrong about it.

[Teachin'Mine]

Not answering for Creekland, but this is from the College Board:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/portal/site/Professionals/menuitem.b6b1a9bc0c5615493883234011a161ca/?vgnextoid=da4ccf9a10494110vcm-02000000aaa514acRCRD&vgnextchannel=ae62247eb2814110VgnVCM200000121a16acRCRD&vgnextfmt=print

[Colleen in NS]

Not answering for Creekland' date=' but this is from the College Board:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/portal/site/Professionals/menuitem.b6b1a9bc0c5615493883234011a161ca/?vgnextoid=da4ccf9a10494110vcm-02000000aaa514acRCRD&vgnextchannel=ae62247eb2814110VgnVCM200000121a16acRCRD&vgnextfmt=print[/quote']

 

Wow, I had no clue! Thanks for that link. (not sure I agree about the unethical-ness of it all, though)

 

Sorry about my rabbit trails; I don't mean to detract from Lyn's intent of a college review.

[elegantlion]

Wow, I had no clue! Thanks for that link. (not sure I agree about the unethical-ness of it all, though)

 

Sorry about my rabbit trails; I don't mean to detract from Lyn's intent of a college review.

 

I have no experience but I find it unethical as it's like saving seats at an event. People are not showing up (not making decisions) and it's not allowing those that show up early/on time to have a better choice.

 

If student Joe puts a deposit in on school A, B, and C knowing he will attend only one, then Jane might not get accepted at school A (her first choice) and end up at her alternate choice school. Then if Joe decides to attend school B at the last minute, Jane has lost her opportunity to be accepted at and attend school A.

 

School C might have been dangling scholarship money at Joe thinking he will attend because he made his deposit. Frank may miss out on scholarship money from school C because Joe hasn't made his decision yet. So Frank can't wait until the last minute and can't afford school C without some aid. So he end up at the CC instead of school C, because Joe couldn't decide.

 

Then Frank drops out of the CC because he isn't challenged, goes to work at Walmart, decides that life is horrible and can't support himself, so he turns to a life of crime. After four years he holds up the convenience store where Joe is working because he has commitment issues and can't find a job after getting his degree from school B. He's confused because he can't put a deposit on a job and decide later. Frank robs him and get 25.49 in cash and 3-5 years in jail.

 

Moral of the story, decide, pay one deposit, your future may depend upon it. :tongue_smilie: (okay the last part is embellished, but hey I'm bored)

[Laura in CA]

Then Frank drops out of the CC because he isn't challenged, goes to work at Walmart, decides that life is horrible and can't support himself, so he turns to a life of crime. After four years he holds up the convenience store where Joe is working because he has commitment issues and can't find a job after getting his degree from school B. He's confused because he can't put a deposit on a job and decide later. Frank robs him and get 25.49 in cash and 3-5 years in jail.

 

Moral of the story, decide, pay one deposit, your future may depend upon it. :tongue_smilie: (okay the last part is embellished, but hey I'm bored)

 

 

:lol:

 

I, too, was trying to simplify the scenario in my head to a few kids and a few schools to see how the ripple effect plays out. Nice way to show how one kid's indecision (or sense of entitlement) affects many others. I pity the schools that are waiting (and dealing with no-shows) and the kids on the waiting lists. I *think* one school (George Fox) did say "get those housing deposits in, even if you're not sure" ... but for the life of me I can't imagine why. Wouldn't it be disruptive to their housing planning to have kids pull out in late May or June?

 

I can think of only one scenario where a kid might put a deposit down (housing *and* "I'm coming") at his second-choice school -- if he's applying overseas and won't hear for sure until July from the overseas school. In this case the kid would put a deposit down at *one* school, with the full intention of enrolling there if the overseas opportunity doesn't pan out. We might be in this situation in a few years, and I'd feel uneasy doing it, but the alternative would be to potentially have nowhere to go ... I wonder if you could be up-front about it ...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Not answering for Creekland' date=' but this is from the College Board:

 

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/portal/site/Professionals/menuitem.b6b1a9bc0c5615493883234011a161ca/?vgnextoid=da4ccf9a10494110vcm-02000000aaa514acRCRD&vgnextchannel=ae62247eb2814110VgnVCM200000121a16acRCRD&vgnextfmt=print[/quote']

 

I would consider that I have a strong sense of personal honor. I would feel bound by formal agreements with colleges. I would feel that I needed to abide by the terms of application categories. For example, Early Decision at Hillsdale is: "For students who consider Hillsdale their first choice, the Early Decision deadline offers the convenience of resolving the college application process long before regular spring admission dates. If admitted, the applicant agrees in writing to withdraw application from other institutions and deposit early as a member of Hillsdale’s incoming class." http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/bkorom/Page_4251/AdmApplication_12-11.pdf

 

However, with Early Action: "applicants receive the advantage of early notification with a May deposit date. This plan serves as the priority deadline for academic scholarship consideration."

 

I would see an honor bound decision with Early Decision that I don't think exists with Early Action.

 

I'm not sure what College Board is referring to with formal and informal agreements. I have a hard time being bound by informal agreements with an industry that sets price based on searching through my bank accounts. Or that will admit students, but tell them they can't register for a semester or a year. Or that doesn't offer enough class sections to graduate on time in four years.

[Barbara H]

Just a thought...

I often hear homeschooling parents say they want their students treated like other applicants. We want to be held to the same, not different standards. We want our transcripts respected. We don't want extra requirements, like taking the GRE, heaped on to our kids. So, I say as parent guidance counselors we should be expected to follow the same level of ethical conduct as other guidance counselors (or perhaps even higher because we have just our kids and we are modeling for them). While some parents may not realize double depositing is unethical, it is behavior that is widely considered in the field of college admissions to be unacceptable.

 

One thing that restricts many traditional school attending students from double depositing is that guidance counselors may find out and report them. The double deposit may be discovered when the counselor is asked to send a final transcript to more than one school. Absolutely there are colleges who will rescind offers if double deposits are discovered. Perhaps homeschoolers are less likely to be caught because there isn't an guidance counselor watching out, but that still doesn't make double deposits ethical.

 

And, really, at a certain point I see it as positive thing to teach kids that it is time to make a decision and just be done. The college admissions process is already WAY TOO LONG without dragging it past May 1.

[Lyn]

Very informative discussion about deposits. I had no idea that the college board had these guidelines.

 

In our instance we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school. So I am not sure if those particular schools have different policies than the norm. Very confusing.

[Yolanda in Mass]

Different ethical standards and plenty of money to throw away, apparently!

 

Yes to both, especially the money.

 

Yolanda

[Colleen in NS]

I have a hard time being bound by informal agreements with an industry that...

 

we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school.

 

These two comments are exactly why I was questioning why double depositing is considered unethical. It seemed to me like an *industry* that puts undue pressure on parents and students, and I don't think that's fair.

 

I can understand now, though, why it would be unethical after May 1.

 

Lyn, this whole thread has been very informative for me. Thank you for posting your review, and good luck to your son in his next season of life.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[creekland]

What do you believe is unethical and wrong about making admissions deposits at more than one school?

 

In case some don't care to read the link, here's the cut and pasted info:

 

Double deposits

 

Double depositing means putting down a deposit, and thus accepting admission, at more than one college. Since a student can’t attend multiple colleges, it is considered unethical. Why might students and families do this, considering that it would mean forfeiting one deposit? The main reasons are:

 

• To buy time to decide on a college when the student has been accepted by more than one. The usual decision deadline is May 1; by double depositing, a student can delay deciding until fall.
  
• To continue negotiating financial aid offers with more than one college past the May 1 decision deadline.
  
• Because the student is on a waiting list at one college and wants to ensure enrollment somewhere in case of being turned down. This scenario is the only one in which NACAC considers double depositing acceptable.
  

Why is double depositing unethical?

 

It's deceitful. Students know they can only attend one college, so they are essentially lying when they notify more than one that they intend to enroll.

It's unfair to the college. If the practice continues, colleges may find they can't predict the size of the incoming class with any accuracy. They may take actions such as enlarging the waiting list or increasing deposit amounts (both of which will impact future applicants).

It's unfair to other applicants. The double depositor is taking up a spot that could go to another student, who will instead be put on a waiting list or turned down.

What should you do?

 

 

• Tell students not to submit deposits to more than one college, unless they are wait-listed at their first choice and accepted at another.
  
• Consider instituting a policy of sending each student's final transcript to only one college.
  
• Warn students that some colleges reserve the right to rescind an offer of admission if they discover that a student has made a double deposit.
  

 

 

 

Then Frank drops out of the CC because he isn't challenged, goes to work at Walmart, decides that life is horrible and can't support himself, so he turns to a life of crime. After four years he holds up the convenience store where Joe is working because he has commitment issues and can't find a job after getting his degree from school B. He's confused because he can't put a deposit on a job and decide later. Frank robs him and get 25.49 in cash and 3-5 years in jail.

 

Moral of the story, decide, pay one deposit, your future may depend upon it. :tongue_smilie: (okay the last part is embellished, but hey I'm bored)

 

:lol::lol: LOVE IT!

 

 

I can think of only one scenario where a kid might put a deposit down (housing *and* "I'm coming") at his second-choice school -- if he's applying overseas and won't hear for sure until July from the overseas school. In this case the kid would put a deposit down at *one* school, with the full intention of enrolling there if the overseas opportunity doesn't pan out. We might be in this situation in a few years, and I'd feel uneasy doing it, but the alternative would be to potentially have nowhere to go ... I wonder if you could be up-front about it ...

 

I believe this is ok... ;)

 

 

I have a hard time being bound by informal agreements with an industry that sets price based on searching through my bank accounts. Or that will admit students, but tell them they can't register for a semester or a year.

 

Aid - need based and merit based - is equivalent of getting a sponsorship. Someone else is paying for you to go to college. If merit aid, then they want to see evidence of your qualifications. Ditto that with need-based aid. The sticker price is the same for all who choose not to go for any aid due to not wanting to substantiate information. Otherwise, human nature has proven over and over again that a fair number of people wouldn't be truthful if no substantiation is required. It may be a pain, but if I want others to sponsor my guys, they'll show they are in the categories that qualify.

 

IF people wouldn't double deposit, chances are, more colleges would get a better grasp on yield and not end up needing to defer people. The VERY FEW colleges (always state colleges I think) who have deferred accepted students had lower yields in prior years and were going off those numbers. Chances are that they had a variable for those who put in deposits, then pulled out. When that variable significantly changed, it messed them up. If they didn't need that variable because people could be trusted, it would sure help.

 

Just a thought...

I often hear homeschooling parents say they want their students treated like other applicants. We want to be held to the same, not different standards. We want our transcripts respected. We don't want extra requirements, like taking the GRE, heaped on to our kids. So, I say as parent guidance counselors we should be expected to follow the same level of ethical conduct as other guidance counselors (or perhaps even higher because we have just our kids and we are modeling for them). While some parents may not realize double depositing is unethical, it is behavior that is widely considered in the field of college admissions to be unacceptable.

 

One thing that restricts many traditional school attending students from double depositing is that guidance counselors may find out and report them. The double deposit may be discovered when the counselor is asked to send a final transcript to more than one school. Absolutely there are colleges who will rescind offers if double deposits are discovered. Perhaps homeschoolers are less likely to be caught because there isn't an guidance counselor watching out, but that still doesn't make double deposits ethical.

 

And, really, at a certain point I see it as positive thing to teach kids that it is time to make a decision and just be done. The college admissions process is already WAY TOO LONG without dragging it past May 1.

 

:iagree: Great post!

 

Very informative discussion about deposits. I had no idea that the college board had these guidelines.

 

In our instance we had some acceptances that that led us to believe that the spot may not be available by May 1 if a deposit was not made prior to that date. It also clearly indicated that these deposits were refundable up until May 1. I kinda read this as you need to make a deposit if you are still seriously considering our school. So I am not sure if those particular schools have different policies than the norm. Very confusing.

 

And this is why I wanted to post on this one part. I think many people do it not realizing what is going on. I'm hoping to help folks in the future. If these schools had refundable policies up until May 1st, I think you were fine. ;) You would be within their rules as long as you let them know by May 1st. They weren't counting their numbers as they went along as many schools do - they were counting solely at the end. After May 1st would mess up their numbers.

 

A "true" double deposit offender makes up their mind mid-summer - or sometimes - right before school starts. There's seldom a good reason anyone needs to take that long to make a decision (waitlist and overseas being exceptions). These folks are those who make the major problems.

 

That said, I do know some colleges (especially higher end) will rescind offers if they find out applicants have double deposited. Be wary if choosing to do it. You may end up with nowhere to go. I suspect they want to make a statement as well as not have the hassle of wondering if they are the first choice or not. Then there's the whole ethical issue - is that a trait of a student they WANT to accept?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

Aid - need based and merit based - is equivalent of getting a sponsorship. Someone else is paying for you to go to college. If merit aid, then they want to see evidence of your qualifications. Ditto that with need-based aid. The sticker price is the same for all who choose not to go for any aid due to not wanting to substantiate information. Otherwise, human nature has proven over and over again that a fair number of people wouldn't be truthful if no substantiation is required. It may be a pain, but if I want others to sponsor my guys, they'll show they are in the categories that qualify.

 

 

On one hand I agree with your point about the money and on the other I do not.

 

Yes, in many instances, financial aid is the school granting scholarships to deserving students. In the sense that the money comes from their endowments it is theirs to encumber as they see fit.

 

On the other hand, there is a strong feel of the car dealership to looking at school costs. A sticker price that is quite high, but that few seem to actually pay. Discounts that are partly based on fixed programs and partly based on the dealer's assessment of what is needed to hook the customer. Additional fees or higher prices attached to subsequent service recoup the earlier discount. (Was the Kia dealer offering me a sponsorship to buy a Sedona or was he trying to close a sale.)

 

I'm not arguing in favor of violating the guidelines listed on the College Board sheet. But I do have a hard time dredging up a lot of empathy for colleges and universities. It is an industry, despite their non-profit status. And I tend to feel quite cynical about the process and especially the financial side of it. (Crazy U had some great chapters about the subtle ways colleges game rankings for example. Cutting academics while expanding football would be another soap box issue for me.)

 

We will probably fall into the hole of the doughnut. We make too much to garner much aid and have saved far too much over the years. But we don't make enough or have enough saved to just pay for college without aid. We are just the sort of customer that will be over a barrel - agreeing with the need for college enough that we will probably end up taking more loans out than I'd like to get my kids through the process.

 

It's why I tend to be very skeptical about some colleges, where I just don't see that their educational value added justifies the expense of their sticker price. (Most of the Ivies probably fall into this category for me.) I'm not much interested in going into hock to fund an educational experience that will equip my kids to despise their parents, know less about history and civics than when they entered or think that tenting in urban areas is a good use of their time.

[elegantlion]

MMM... Letourneau said to turn in the deposit as soon as possible, but that you had until May 1st to get it back if you changed your mind. But that they could find more scholarships if they had the deposit...

 

LeTourneau will be a safety for us. So would it be bad to turn in the deposit if we didn't know for sure what we were going to do. The lady that spoke to our homeschool group seemed to view it as nonbinding...

 

So if you pay a deposit do they actually cash the check? Will this turn into another method of school making money? If they accept non-binding deposits and deposit them, they aren't just sitting there I'm sure. They're probably in an investment account drawing interest. So the college earns interest off your non-binding deposit for what, six months? I'm not a numbers person, but how much could a school made off that? Surely enough to take the gamble of whether you'll attend or not.

[Teachin'Mine]

Total ignorance showing here - typically, how much is a deposit?

[Laura Corin]

I have no experience but I find it unethical as it's like saving seats at an event. People are not showing up (not making decisions) and it's not allowing those that show up early/on time to have a better choice.

 

In the UK, all universities receive applications through a central clearing house, called UCAS. A pupil can choose up to five universities. His/her common application is considered by all the universities at the same time, and the universities make offers through UCAS. The pupil can accept two universities - because final exam results are not in at that stage - so most hold onto an aspirational university and a safety. When the exam results come in these go automatically to UCAS and the pupil is accepted. So:

 

• In October, the pupil makes common application to UCAS, choosing Oxford, Bristol, Bath, York and Dundee universities to study English.
   
  
• The universities look at all the applications (forwarded from UCAS), including the personal statements and the expected exam scores, then make conditional offers, usually in the spring.
   
  
• The pupil chooses one aspirational and one safety, maybe Oxford and Dundee.
   
  
• In June the pupil takes exams and in August receives the results.
   
  
• The university receives the results and sends out joining instructions. The pupil goes off to university in the autumn: Oxford if the results are good, Dundee if not.
  

 

Laura

Edited May 11, 2012 by Laura Corin

[stripe]

Ah, but we like repetition, extra work, inefficiencies, and uniquely American solutions, and dislike sharing, so we'd never dream of learning from anyone else. Besides, every college has an utterly unique applications, so that would never work.

[Yolanda in Mass]

Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

We've paid $200-$300. Private and state. State was higher. Housing deposit runs about same.

Yolanda

Edited May 11, 2012 by Yolanda in Mass

[Kareni]

Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

My daughter is now finishing up her junior year in college. I believe the deposit we paid was $500.00.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Barbara H]

 

I'm not arguing in favor of violating the guidelines listed on the College Board sheet. But I do have a hard time dredging up a lot of empathy for colleges and universities. It is an industry, despite their non-profit status. And I tend to feel quite cynical about the process and especially the financial side of it.

 

 

Maybe it helps to think more about the individuals involved in the process both the administrators and the students. I don't believe college admissions officers are all mean people - in fact I bet most of them are perfectly nice people doing a very difficult job. They are tasked with trying to make wild guesses about how many students will choose to go to a college.

 

Let's take an example: Say they have room for 2,500 students, but get 10,000 applicants. In that situation how may would you accept? If too few enroll you are in a precarious position financially and costs need to rise on the students who do attend. Also, you've just denied students the opportunity to be educated at a school you believe in. If you enroll too many then you've got freshman who can't get housing and can't get into the intro courses they need.

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Barbara H

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Yolanda and Kareni. :)

 

Sounds like a good enough deterrent to me, but I'm sure it's not for all.

[creekland]

 

Yes, in many instances, financial aid is the school granting scholarships to deserving students. In the sense that the money comes from their endowments it is theirs to encumber as they see fit.

 

On the other hand, there is a strong feel of the car dealership to looking at school costs. A sticker price that is quite high, but that few seem to actually pay. Discounts that are partly based on fixed programs and partly based on the dealer's assessment of what is needed to hook the customer. Additional fees or higher prices attached to subsequent service recoup the earlier discount. (Was the Kia dealer offering me a sponsorship to buy a Sedona or was he trying to close a sale.)

 

Of course colleges want those they accept to come there. The more they want you, the more they will offer (usually). I, personally, see nothing wrong with that and use that fact to try to make my guys attractive to places they apply. If one has enough money to be full pay, they can skip that part and just make their students attractive enough to get in.

 

 

Cutting academics while expanding football would be another soap box issue for me.

 

 

:iagree: Neither of the schools my older two have chosen are big with sports and I kind of like it that way.

 

 

We will probably fall into the hole of the doughnut. We make too much to garner much aid and have saved far too much over the years. But we don't make enough or have enough saved to just pay for college without aid. We are just the sort of customer that will be over a barrel - agreeing with the need for college enough that we will probably end up taking more loans out than I'd like to get my kids through the process.

 

It's why I tend to be very skeptical about some colleges, where I just don't see that their educational value added justifies the expense of their sticker price. (Most of the Ivies probably fall into this category for me.) I'm not much interested in going into hock to fund an educational experience that will equip my kids to despise their parents, know less about history and civics than when they entered or think that tenting in urban areas is a good use of their time.

 

:iagree: And we've chosen our schools accordingly. There are many different atmospheres for schools. School A = School B is a fallacy.

 

MMM... Letourneau said to turn in the deposit as soon as possible, but that you had until May 1st to get it back if you changed your mind. But that they could find more scholarships if they had the deposit...

 

LeTourneau will be a safety for us. So would it be bad to turn in the deposit if we didn't know for sure what we were going to do. The lady that spoke to our homeschool group seemed to view it as nonbinding...

 

If it's non-binding, sure, send it in if you want to (but you don't have to). However, as soon as you send in a deposit to a school you like better without the non-binding agreement you'd best ask for your deposit from LeTourneau back. ;) If you decide to stay with LeTourneau - enjoy!

 

Total ignorance showing here - typically' date=' how much is a deposit?[/quote']

 

We paid $300 for oldest and $700 for middle. All I've personally seen have been in the $200 - $700 range, but not long ago someone told me $900. I've forgotten which school though. Furman even considered theirs ($500) to be a security deposit the student receives back when they leave the school. The others were put toward the first year bill.

 

Besides, every college has an utterly unique applications, so that would never work.

 

Um, no. Ever heard of the Common Application? Many schools use it with just a short supplement. Some schools have their own applications. More and more are signing up for the Common App each year.

 

I don't mind the way US apps are done. The Common App this year had us Guidance Counselors fill out a survey telling whether or not we feel how many colleges one can send the app to should be limited. I voted yes. I do think people who apply to oodles of colleges don't help the situation when they can only attend one. Others differ in their thoughts, of course. YMMV.

 

 

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

 

:iagree: you word things very well. I've yet to meet anyone in college admissions who I haven't liked. I know I'm a tolerant person, but... they are all trying to do the best by their school and students. Most feel sorry for students they need to reject.

[Barbara H]

:iagree: you word things very well. I've yet to meet anyone in college admissions who I haven't liked. I know I'm a tolerant person, but... they are all trying to do the best by their school and students. Most feel sorry for students they need to reject.

 

I think this is a significant broader point about college admissions that is important beyond just this discussion of double deposits. Being able to think about admissions officers as real people, nice people trying to do a good job, may really help us do our jobs as parents/guidance counselors. Thinking about it from their perspective does make it easier to approach putting together admissions materials in a way that is positive and communicates a good attitude.

 

Especially for those of us who have homeschooled forever, it is really tough to have the loss of control that comes with admissions. It is hard to feel like your efforts are being judged and your kid may not get what he or she wants. It is good to think about those feelings but not let them bubble over into negativity that really can come through in applications.

[Colleen in NS]

They will state in their acceptance letter that to guarantee a place at May 1 you need to make a deposit and if you change your mind prior to that date your deposit is refundable.

 

If these schools had refundable policies up until May 1st, I think you were fine. ;) You would be within their rules as long as you let them know by May 1st.

 

I think she already knew that, and tried to explain near the beginning of your tangent about double deposits.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Maybe it helps to think more about the individuals involved in the process both the administrators and the students. I don't believe college admissions officers are all mean people - in fact I bet most of them are perfectly nice people doing a very difficult job. They are tasked with trying to make wild guesses about how many students will choose to go to a college.

 

Let's take an example: Say they have room for 2,500 students, but get 10,000 applicants. In that situation how may would you accept? If too few enroll you are in a precarious position financially and costs need to rise on the students who do attend. Also, you've just denied students the opportunity to be educated at a school you believe in. If you enroll too many then you've got freshman who can't get housing and can't get into the intro courses they need.

 

Perhaps I have an overly developed sense of empathy, but I've gone nuts just trying to figure out how many kids are going to show up for a seven year old's birthday party. That's just do we have enough cupcakes and are my kid's feelings going to be hurt if kids say they are going to show up and they don't. It seems like we've had some cultural shift where some people don't get the idea of the RSVP and maybe being double deposits are just another example of that. If your kid is claiming a spot they aren't going to take in a class, they are saying their desire to hold out for more prestige or delay making a decision is more important than another kid getting their first choice school. I have a hard time with that idea.

 

I didn't say that I think admissions reps are mean. FWIW, I am in the admissions information program for one of my alma maters. And yes, I do spend a lot of time and energy thinking through who would be the best fit. I not only want to find students who will be great at my school, but also find those who will survive the process all the way to graduation and not just the first semester or first two years.

 

But I also know that some good and even great kids will be turned down because we already have too many kids from their part of the country or too many with their general stats. And since we have 10-20 applications for every open slot, the school can be very picky.

 

But I think it's important to realize that while a college and a student have goals that overlap, they don't necessarily have the same goals.

 

(FWIW, I'm not justifying the double deposits, when they violate a specific agreement with the school. I'm just saying that I do think that the school is marketing a product to me.)

[Barbara H]

I didn't say that I think admissions reps are mean.

 

My apologies... I was more responding to the general sentiment I have heard from many parents. I just think it is in our kids' best interests to try to keep a positive attitude about intentions. I'm sure we'd all agree the system is far from ideal in a lot of ways.

[stripe]

Um, no. Ever heard of the Common Application? Many schools use it with just a short supplement. Some schools have their own applications. More and more are signing up for the Common App each year.

 

Um, yes. I was speaking tongue in cheek.

[creekland]

Um, yes. I was speaking tongue in cheek.

 

Sorry! :D I come across a lot of parents that don't realize it as it didn't exist in "their day."

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My apologies... I was more responding to the general sentiment I have heard from many parents. I just think it is in our kids' best interests to try to keep a positive attitude about intentions. I'm sure we'd all agree the system is far from ideal in a lot of ways.

 

No problem.

 

And I imagine that my name is not always spoken of gently. I always am polite, but if a student asks me to be honest with him, I will tell him that a lack of physics/chemistry/calculus or at least pre calc/leadership examples/sports or other physical activity/SAT scores will not serve him well in comparison to other candidates.

[TravelingChris]

Life threatening allergies certainly qualify as a disability. Food preferences do not. My dd, who does have life threatening allergies, has a emergency procedure letter from her allergist, along with six medications that need to be given to her if she gets it (right now, it is stung by a wasp but she is rapidly developing similar strong reactions to citric acid.).

 

Look, I prefer milk without rbgh and no hfcs and no transfats. I am well aware that while I have the money and resources to pay to get these items, while my kids are in the early adulthood, it is very unlikely they can afford (both in the time shopping and monetarily) such preferences.

[kmitchell]

Thank you all for sharing. This was an enlightening conversation.

[Lyn]

Life threatening allergies certainly qualify as a disability. Food preferences do not. My dd, who does have life threatening allergies, has a emergency procedure letter from her allergist, along with six medications that need to be given to her if she gets it (right now, it is stung by a wasp but she is rapidly developing similar strong reactions to citric acid.).

 

Look, I prefer milk without rbgh and no hfcs and no transfats. I am well aware that while I have the money and resources to pay to get these items, while my kids are in the early adulthood, it is very unlikely they can afford (both in the time shopping and monetarily) such preferences.

 

Chris:

 

 

The point I was trying to make earlier is that it is not unreasonable to expect healthy food from a school. There are more and more schools offering rbgh free milk, transfat free oils and even grass fed beef.

 

For us this is important and would be even if my son did not have allergies. Ten years or maybe even five years ago this would have been very difficult if not impossible to find on a college campus, but it is much more mainstream now.

 

The rub with Hillsdale is the fact that they seemed so intent on hiding the fact that they did not offer what I was looking for. Frankly, if I loved everything else about a school and was convinced that they were sincerely looking to make their food offerings more healthy, I would not cross them off my list. Ultimately, it is the hiding of facts that is most disturbing. Like I said, if they believe that their food service program is great the way it is, and don't want to be bothered with parents who have such concerns, why not post what they actually use on their website for all to see.