Need help choosing actual books from WTM ancients lit. list

[Colleen in NS]

If you had to choose a wide variety of X amount of books from the WTM ancient lit. list for your high schooler to read/study via TWEM/WTM study suggestions, which would you choose and why?

 

- Choose eight

 

- Choose twelve

 

- Choose sixteen

 

(I know, I know, this last bit is probably ambitious, but humour me so I can think things through...)

 

Thank you.

[regentrude]

I can tell you what we managed to cover with DD. We spent a lot of time going into depth; for instance we listened to 72 lectures from the Teaching Company. We chose to do that instead of reading more works.

 

 

The Iliad

The Odyssey (those two I find most necessary and non-negotiable)

The Aeneid (very important for an understanding of Dante)

 

Histories Herodotus

(we had planned to do Thukydides, but she could not get into it, despite trying)

 

A selection of Greek tragedies

(we chose Antigone-Oedipus Rex-Oedipus on Colonos, Electra )

A comedy would have been nice, but we ran out of time.

Metamorphoses Ovid

Trial and death of Socrates Plato

selections from Plutarch

[Colleen in NS]

I can tell you what we managed to cover with DD. We spent a lot of time going into depth; for instance we listened to 72 lectures from the Teaching Company. We chose to do that instead of reading more works.

 

 

The Iliad

The Odyssey (those two I find most necessary and non-negotiable)

The Aeneid (very important for an understanding of Dante)

 

Histories Herodotus

(we had planned to do Thukydides, but she could not get into it, despite trying)

 

A selection of Greek tragedies

(we chose Antigone-Oedipus Rex-Oedipus on Colonos, Electra )

A comedy would have been nice, but we ran out of time.

Metamorphoses Ovid

Trial and death of Socrates Plato

selections from Plutarch

 

Thank you; this is very helpful.

 

I can see how you divided your list out. I understand all except the last section - will you explain why the last three are grouped together, and why you chose those particular titles? Thank you.

[Candid]

We used Tapestry of Grace.

 

Here's what we read:

 

Egyptian Poetry

Epic of Gilgamesh

Mesopotamian Poetry

Bible as lit

The Iliad

The Odyssey

The Aeneid

Bhagavad-Gita

The Analects

Agamemnon

Libation Bearers

Eumenides

Medea

Oedipus the King

Antigone

Poetics

Republic (Plato and Cicero)

The City of God

 

Some of these were edited versions and we had a smattering of other philosophers, but most of that came in a text book sort of book on philosophy.

[elegantlion]

If you had to choose a wide variety of X amount of books from the WTM ancient lit. list for your high schooler to read/study via TWEM/WTM study suggestions, which would you choose and why?

 

- Choose eight

 

- Choose twelve

 

- Choose sixteen

 

(I know, I know, this last bit is probably ambitious, but humour me so I can think things through...)

 

Thank you.

 

I listed what we are doing in another thread, but I'll divide them out. I've basically divided our study into literature (Epic poems and plays), history, and philosophy.

 

In the literature I chose:

Gilgamesh

Iliad

Odyssey (both vital to ancients, imo)

We'll do 3 tragedies, 1 comedy (still undecided) Something from the Orestia (sp?) will be one, Oedipus Rex will be another.

We'll also read Aristotle's Poetics as part of the literature

Probably a couple of chapters in the Bible (undecided)

 

History:

Herodotus (we're using the Landmark version). I opted to use only Herodotus and have a spine for the rest of the history section.

 

Philosophy:

Aristotle (undecided)

Plato's socratic dialogues

Plato's Republic

 

We're going deeper into philosophy than I would with another student. Ds is very philosophical, his favorite question is WHY? I plan to do a year of philosophy (using other non-primary source materials) and then a semester of Ethics in another year.

 

If we were continuing with Roman history I would include:

 

Aeneid (vital)

Marcus Aurelius' Meditations - simply because they're awesome reading

Aside from that Ester Maria suggested some titles in a thread. I'll see if I can find it. Here it is. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337763&highlight=roman+history+aurelius

 

HTH

[Nan in Mass]

I can tell you some things we enjoyed. I don't know enough to recommend 8, 12, 16. I had somebody do that for us and we read most of the way through the list. Another problem is that we didn't exactly do our great books in chronological order or all during high school. Some of these were just listened to, some just read, and others were done TWEM-style. My boys enjoyed Genesis, Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Plato's Republic, The Oresteia, The Birds, The Aeneid, some of Plutarch's Lives (the older people-oriented one enjoyed these, the younger technical-oriented one did not), The Voyage of the Argo, and various modern retellings of myths from all over the world. The older one read some of Sappho's poetry but didn't enjoy it much, and he began but refused to read St. Augustine, saying it was way too whiny and appeared to be a repeat of Plato's Republic. I didn't push it. I concentrated on the Greek plays and stories of various sorts, basically things that would appeal to my boys, hence the unbalanced list. I wish my youngest had more time to work on anicents. He would like to read more plays and I would have him read one of the histories. He wants to reread The Iliad. He probably will read Oedipus Rex, but I doubt he will have time for more. He also has more medieval works he'd like to read. Instead of great books, he will be doing community college composition his senior year. Oh well. No reason he can't read them as an adult.

 

Nan

[regentrude]

Thank you; this is very helpful.

 

I can see how you divided your list out. I understand all except the last section - will you explain why the last three are grouped together, and why you chose those particular titles? Thank you.

 

They are not really grouped together - sorry for the formatting.

Ovid - seemed like the Metamorphoses was a good choice there, very readable and nice mythology summary.

Plato- we had only time for something short and saved the Republic for later. Socrates is interesting, came up when we read about philosophy.

Plutarch - I liked the biographical format.

 

We spent almost a semester on Homer and really did not have time for more Romans (sorry, Caesar).

[Nan in Mass]

It took us almost a semester to get through The Iliad. We go slowly, reading aloud, and I can't remember what sort of semester it was; it might have had something like community college classes for the older one in it which would have made us skimp a bit on read-aloud time, especially at the very beginning and during exam weeks and finals. My boys enjoyed it. I found it a little long and masculine. I liked The Odyssey better. It also went faster, even though we were reading it aloud. It still took us a few months, though. We are slow : ).

 

Nan

[Jane in NC]

My son read The Iliad and The Odyssey in middle school; otherwise these would have been on the list.

 

In entirety:

 

-Epic of Gilgamesh

-Oedipus the King

-The Frogs

-The Aeneid

-War of the Jews

 

excerpts from

 

-the Bible

-The Histories (Herodotus)

-The History of the Peloponnesian War

-The Republic

-Odes (Horace)

-Plutarch's Lives

 

Additionally:

 

-Cicero (biography by Anthony Everitt)

 

The books from which we chose excerpts could be read in their entirety, but I felt that exposure to a variety of works was important. And we simply did not have the time to cover everything! Great Battles of the Ancient World (from TTC) helped formed a framework from which excerpts of the above were covered.

 

We spent the greatest amount of time on The Aeneid which included the Vandiver lectures.

 

By the way, my son returned to Herodotus in 11th grade and read the entire book for "fun". He reread Josephus (War of the Jews) after his first year of college. One is not confined to reading these selections in 9th grade alone!

 

ETA: My son used the Bolchazy Legamus readers to study Ovid and Catullus later in high school. He also returned to The Aeneid in AP Latin. My 9th grade plan was developed with the hope that these things would happen.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Jane in NC
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[Jenny in Florida]

Well, we're hardly WTM poster children. I have this need to do things my own way, unfortunately.

 

This year, for example, we didn't do "ancients." Instead, my son has spent the whole year on Greek mythology and literature. And he's read a mixture of "classics" and contemporary retellings. Oh, and we also did English and history as separate subjects.

 

With that said, here's what he's read this year:

 

The Golden Fleece and the Heroes Who Lived Before Achilles, Padraic Colum

The Odyssey of Homer, Henry Christ

The Odyssey, Book Eleven, Homer (Robert Fitzgerald, translator)

Mythology, Edith Hamilton

Romeo and Juliet, William Shakespeare (We talked about the connections to Pyramus and Thisbe.)

A Wonder Book, Nathaniel Hawthorne

Antigone, Sophocles

Pygmalion, George Bernard Shaw

Prometheus Bound, Aeschylus

Oedipus the King, Sophocles

“Euthyphro,†The Trial and Death of Socrates, Plato

The Frogs, Aristophanes

The King Must Die, Mary Renault

Goddess of Yesterday, Caroline B. Cooney

Troy, Adele Geras

[Colleen in NS]

Candid, thank you for sharing the list of what you used.

 

I listed what we are doing in another thread, but I'll divide them out.

 

Aside from that Ester Maria suggested some titles in a thread. I'll see if I can find it. Here it is. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337763&highlight=roman+history+aurelius

 

HTH

 

Thanks for dividing them out for me. And thanks for the link. I'll study these later and may come back with some questions for you. Well, I thought of one now: how do you study the philosophy books - can you use TWEM or HTRAB?

 

I can tell you some things we enjoyed. I don't know enough to recommend 8, 12, 16. I had somebody do that for us and we read most of the way through the list. Another problem is that we didn't exactly do our great books in chronological order or all during high school. Some of these were just listened to, some just read, and others were done TWEM-style. My boys enjoyed Genesis, Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Plato's Republic, The Oresteia, The Birds, The Aeneid, some of Plutarch's Lives (the older people-oriented one enjoyed these, the younger technical-oriented one did not), The Voyage of the Argo, and various modern retellings of myths from all over the world. The older one read some of Sappho's poetry but didn't enjoy it much, and he began but refused to read St. Augustine, saying it was way too whiny and appeared to be a repeat of Plato's Republic. I didn't push it. I concentrated on the Greek plays and stories of various sorts, basically things that would appeal to my boys, hence the unbalanced list. I wish my youngest had more time to work on anicents. He would like to read more plays and I would have him read one of the histories. He wants to reread The Iliad. He probably will read Oedipus Rex, but I doubt he will have time for more. He also has more medieval works he'd like to read. Instead of great books, he will be doing community college composition his senior year. Oh well. No reason he can't read them as an adult.

 

Nan

 

Really helpful Nan. I remember, too, your past posts about how you used TWEM to read through books with your boys. Sitting out on your dock! :D

 

They are not really grouped together - sorry for the formatting.

Ovid - seemed like the Metamorphoses was a good choice there, very readable and nice mythology summary.

Plato- we had only time for something short and saved the Republic for later. Socrates is interesting, came up when we read about philosophy.

Plutarch - I liked the biographical format.

 

We spent almost a semester on Homer and really did not have time for more Romans (sorry, Caesar).

 

Thank you!

 

It took us almost a semester to get through The Iliad. We go slowly, reading aloud, ...

 

See, this is one reason I posted my OP - I have no idea how long it will take my son to read each of these books, and I have no idea if I will need to read them with him or not (yes, I plan to read them myself - but WITH him I am not sure). So I'm not sure how to plan. And the fact that I will be buying more of the books this time, so he can mark in them, as opposed to borrowing as much as possible from the library. I suppose I could just buy a few at a time, but there is a sale on right now at Book Depository....and all the cheap/good condition used books on amazon keep getting snapped up, :lol:. I have three tabs open right now, with shopping baskets full of books, and I'm going nuts comparing prices, conditions, versions, authors, deciding how many we will have time for, wondering what will be interesting and what won't, what is important for some reason that I don't know about, etc..

[Candid]

Well, we're hardly WTM poster children. I have this need to do things my own way, unfortunately.

 

 

The King Must Die, Mary Renault

 

Well maybe not on the first part, but I had forgotten Renault who I read in high school. Thanks for reminding me.

[mcconnellboys]

These are the things I had picked out to go along with SWB's history of the world and a Spielvogel text. This was with the understanding that every bit of every work might not get covered:

 

Bible: Genesis – Job (weeks 1-2; two hours per day devoted to reading; using an easy to read version of the Bible for this work)

 

Gilgamesh (week 3)

 

Homer: The Iliad, trans. Robert Fitzgerald (week 4-5)

 

Homer: The Odyssey (week 7-10)

 

Greek Lyrical Poetry: Sappho, Pindar (week 11)

Sophocles: Oedipus the King

Agammemnon -

 

Herodotus: The Histories, Robin Waterfield, Trans. (week 12 - 15)

 

Euripides: Medea (week 16)

Aristophanes: The Birds

Other Euripides?

 

Thucydides: The Peloponnessian War, Steven Lattimore, Trans. (week 17 - 20)

 

Plato: The Republic, Desmond Lee, Trans. (week 21 - 22)

 

Aristotle: On Poetics, Seth Benardete, Trans. (week 23)

Aristotle: Rhetoric – online book: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/a8rh/

Read the book of Daniel in the Bible

 

Horace, from Lit of West. Civ. - Do both the Odes and his Satire (week 24)

Lucretius: On the Nature of Things, A. E. Stallings, Trans.

 

Cicero: The Republic (and the Laws), Niall Rudd, Trans. (week 25)

 

Virgil: Aeneid – online: http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.html (week 26 - 27)

 

Ovid: Metamorphoses, Mary Innes, Trans. (week 28)

 

Bible: Corinthians I and II (week 29)

 

Wars of the Jews, Josephus, Betty Radice, Trans. (selections - week 30 - 31)

 

Plutarch: The Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans, Robin Waterfield, Trans. (week 32 - 34)

 

Tacitus: Annals – use online version to cover what we can this week and perhaps next: http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html (wks. 35 and perhaps continue some during next week, if possible)

 

Saint Athanasius: On the Incarnation available through Amazon - Also online: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm (week 36)

[elegantlion]

Candid, thank you for sharing the list of what you used.

 

 

Thanks for dividing them out for me. And thanks for the link. I'll study these later and may come back with some questions for you. Well, I thought of one now: how do you study the philosophy books - can you use TWEM or HTRAB?

 

As far as HOW we're doing it, I'm not quite sure at the moment. I am in the midst of pre-reading all the philosophy. I'll have my own copy and make notes as I read. In preparation we are currently reading Aristotle for Everybody by Adler.

 

We also won't get to Plato or Aristotle until the end of next year, so I expect some growth from ds. We will probably read aloud and have a guided discussion. I plan to find some online helps, gradesaver usually has some good study notes. We're using a lot of TC lectures for history and lit, so I don't plan on adding any lectures. I'd like to add some writing assignments, but that will depend upon his ability at the time.

[Nan in Mass]

...See, this is one reason I posted my OP - I have no idea how long it will take my son to read each of these books, and I have no idea if I will need to read them with him or not (yes, I plan to read them myself - but WITH him I am not sure). So I'm not sure how to plan. And the fact that I will be buying more of the books this time, so he can mark in them, as opposed to borrowing as much as possible from the library. I suppose I could just buy a few at a time, but there is a sale on right now at Book Depository....and all the cheap/good condition used books on amazon keep getting snapped up, :lol:. I have three tabs open right now, with shopping baskets full of books, and I'm going nuts comparing prices, conditions, versions, authors, deciding how many we will have time for, wondering what will be interesting and what won't, what is important for some reason that I don't know about, etc..

 

My suggestion? I think you might be over-planning. If I were you, I would make a list of what we should read (definately not overplanning lol), a nice long list and then put it in order, most important first. Then I would buy the first three or four books on the list used from alibris (or something), trying to find two copies of the same edition. There are lots of Penguin Classics paperback copies floating around out there. Don't buy the rest until you know that you will get to them. The books build on each other and you might change your list as you read them. Reading one might make you want to add or eliminate another. You can look at the free scanned-into-the-internet books if it is something short, but the longer things you will want to buy. I don't think you should buy too many at once unless they are really, really cheap and you are looking at exactly the same copies of the same book. In other words, this is one of those places where you could buy lots of books and not use them or not be able to match them edition-wise. I have read things where I had a different edition (page numbers) and it was a nuisance. The only time it worked just fine was reading Shakespeare plays (I got a variety of copies out of the library early on, before everyone had their own Shakespeare) and some short things like poetry. If you can find a good cheap used hard-bound copy of complete Shakespeare, then buy it. The "translation" won't matter and it will be a life-time book. My mother still is using her college copy. I wound up having to buy good editions of The Odyssey and The Iliad and The Aeneid for my youngest because he is obviously going to reread them. We liked books that had lots of footnotes in the back explaining the cultural or historical references or translation, but you may be different. I put the audio book of The Odyssey on my sons' ipods after we had read it, so they could "reread" it. My oldest, who did not read it in public school but can pretty much quote the Oddsbodkin version requested it on his ipod, too, after he spent a summer floating around the Greek isles. If a book doesn't "go" and you have to abandon it, then I would consider getting the audiobook from the library and just having them listen to it, no discussion, no anything, while they are riding in the car or building something or doing the dishes. I think that is quite a lot better than not having read it at all. Just my opinion, though.

 

Don't be afraid to change the list as your children change and grow. In fact, expect it to. Remember that serendipity often plays a part in the appearance of resources. And I think you are very wise to plan out a reading list and buy the first half year of books. Buying one at a time, as you need them, is a good way to insure a gap while you are trying to get around to it. Buying too many at once, though, usually means unread books and wasted effort. There is a happy medium someplace. It will get easier. : )

 

Nan

Edited April 27, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[Colleen in NS]

My son read The Iliad and The Odyssey in middle school; otherwise these would have been on the list.

 

In entirety:

 

-Epic of Gilgamesh

-Oedipus the King

-The Frogs

-The Aeneid

-War of the Jews Jane, can you recommend translation of this, and tell me why you recommend it?

 

excerpts from

 

-the Bible Did you study the Bible excerpts somehow, or just read and talk about them generally? (how?)

-The Histories (Herodotus)

-The History of the Peloponnesian War

-The Republic

-Odes (Horace)

-Plutarch's Lives

 

Additionally:

 

-Cicero (biography by Anthony Everitt)

 

The books from which we chose excerpts could be read in their entirety, but I felt that exposure to a variety of works was important. And we simply did not have the time to cover everything! Great Battles of the Ancient World (from TTC) helped formed a framework from which excerpts of the above were covered.

 

We spent the greatest amount of time on The Aeneid which included the Vandiver lectures.

 

By the way, my son returned to Herodotus in 11th grade and read the entire book for "fun". He reread Josephus (War of the Jews) after his first year of college. One is not confined to reading these selections in 9th grade alone!

 

ETA: My son used the Bolchazy Legamus readers to study Ovid and Catullus later in high school. He also returned to The Aeneid in AP Latin. My 9th grade plan was developed with the hope that these things would happen.

 

Yes, this is what I am hoping for, too. It's just that I'm on a crash course in figuring out what many of these different books are about and trying to make a loose overview of a flexible plan.

 

Antigone,

The Frogs, Aristophanes

 

Thanks, I might have a look at these.

 

These are the things I had picked out to go along with SWB's history of the world and a Spielvogel text. How did you decide what to use?...

 

Bible: Genesis – Job (weeks 1-2; two hours per day devoted to reading; using an easy to read version of the Bible for this work)Did you study this in any particular way, or just read and discuss? How?

 

Greek Lyrical Poetry: Sappho, Pindar (week 11)

 

This is the second or so time I've seen this mentioned - I'll have to look into it. I know I saw it mentioned in TWEM, too.

 

...

Aristotle: Rhetoric – online book: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/a8rh/

...

Lucretius: On the Nature of Things, A. E. Stallings, Trans.

 

Cicero: The Republic (and the Laws), Niall Rudd, Trans. (week 25)

...

Ovid: Metamorphoses, Mary Innes, Trans. (week 28)

 

...

Wars of the Jews, Josephus, Betty Radice, Trans. (selections - week 30 - 31)

 

...

Tacitus: Annals – use online version to cover what we can this week and perhaps next: http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html (wks. 35 and perhaps continue some during next week, if possible)

 

Saint Athanasius: On the Incarnation available through Amazon - Also online: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm (week 36)

 

Thanks for including which translations of these - I needed more to compare.

 

As far as HOW we're doing it, I'm not quite sure at the moment. I am in the midst of pre-reading all the philosophy. I'll have my own copy and make notes as I read. In preparation we are currently reading Aristotle for Everybody by Adler.

 

We also won't get to Plato or Aristotle until the end of next year, so I expect some growth from ds. We will probably read aloud and have a guided discussion. I plan to find some online helps, gradesaver usually has some good study notes. We're using a lot of TC lectures for history and lit, so I don't plan on adding any lectures. I'd like to add some writing assignments, but that will depend upon his ability at the time.

 

I'll be interested to hear how it goes! Still rowing along in that boat with you...

 

My suggestion? I think you might be over-planning. If I were you, I would make a list of what we should read (definately not overplanning lol), a nice long list and then put it in order, most important first. ...The books build on each other and you might change your list as you read them. Reading one might make you want to add or eliminate another. ...I don't think you should buy too many at once unless they are really, really cheap and you are looking at exactly the same copies of the same book. ...

 

Don't be afraid to change the list as your children change and grow. In fact, expect it to. Remember that serendipity often plays a part in the appearance of resources.

 

Not overplanning; just trying to get an overall feel for what all these ancient books are about, so I can pick a few to try. I also figured there would be a variety of genres, and that I should pick from that variety. So between posting questions here, looking at suggestions, looking up WTM/WEM recs online, filling online shopping baskets (and watching some of those books fall out of my shopping carts because others are scooping them up, arggghhh!!!:lol:) I've been slowly figuring some things out. I'm the type that needs a frame first, and I'm just figuring out this new frame. Then I get confident about switching things around. Anyway, since these books keep falling out of my shopping carts, I think I'm going to pare it down to two or three to start with (because I know what translations I want, I know I want them, and they are cheap)(we start this summer) - those Homer books are long! - and buy the cheap ones that ds already said he wanted to read.

[Terri NS]

Hi Colleen- We're doing a quick pass over ancients this year (limited time) but I am including Plato's Republic as I want to do The Communist Maifesto and also Mein Kampf next year. I think it will be a great discussion.

[Jane in NC]

War of the Jews Jane, can you recommend translation of this, and tell me why you recommend it?

 

Whiston translation. Many of the translations we used in ancient and medieval studies were not selected for the translation itself but because the books were already in our (embarrassingly large) collection.

 

excerpts from

-the Bible Did you study the Bible excerpts somehow, or just read and talk about them generally? (how?)

 

We tried to look at Biblical readings from an historical perspective, but also sometimes as literature. Isaiah is beautifully poetic, for example. The Oxford University Press produces a well annotated Bible which assists with making historical connections.

[Nan in Mass]

The overplanning part was refering to multiple shopping carts. That can be crazy-making, I know. The overview part is a very good idea. I found that it was helpful to take a quick look at wiki in order to see why this was an important work and get some idea of what it was about and where it landed in history and then at amazon.com at the number of pages. We went through works slowly enough that I needed to know if the book was 400 pages or 200 pages. It also helped to know how much of that 400 pages was the actual work and how much was extra material. The look-inside feature usually showed the table of contents which gave me some idea of this. These works are probably all online, as well, so you can have a look at how dry they are. I was pleasantly suprised at how undry everything we read was. I slowly began to dawn on me that these were "great books" because they were things that many many people read and found valuable, and that they therefore had to be somewhat readable.

 

Nan

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Colleen- We're doing a quick pass over ancients this year (limited time) but I am including Plato's Republic as I want to do The Communist Maifesto and also Mein Kampf next year. I think it will be a great discussion.

 

Too bad we aren't on the same history cycle - we could get our families together for lit. discussions occasionally!

 

Sorry I didn't get more opportunity to talk with you the other day, but it was fun to see you again!

 

Whiston translation. Many of the translations we used in ancient and medieval studies were not selected for the translation itself but because the books were already in our (embarrassingly large) collection.

 

Yup, I hear you on the size of collection.

 

I may have a look at the Whiston translation (since I don't have that book yet). Thanks.

 

We tried to look at Biblical readings from an historical perspective, but also sometimes as literature. Isaiah is beautifully poetic, for example. The Oxford University Press produces a well annotated Bible which assists with making historical connections.

 

Thank you!

 

The overplanning part was refering to multiple shopping carts. That can be crazy-making, I know.

 

I misunderstood! I'm sorry. Yes, it was making me crazy, esp. as yet another one fell out of a cart after my last post about it, lol. But I just made a few basic orders for the beginning, and I'm happy now. :lol:

 

The overview part is a very good idea. I found that it was helpful to take a quick look at wiki in order to see why this was an important work and get some idea of what it was about and where it landed in history and then at amazon.com at the number of pages. We went through works slowly enough that I needed to know if the book was 400 pages or 200 pages. It also helped to know how much of that 400 pages was the actual work and how much was extra material. The look-inside feature usually showed the table of contents which gave me some idea of this. These works are probably all online, as well, so you can have a look at how dry they are. I was pleasantly suprised at how undry everything we read was. I slowly began to dawn on me that these were "great books" because they were things that many many people read and found valuable, and that they therefore had to be somewhat readable.

 

Nan

 

Yes, I resorted to wiki earlier today to figure some things out. I, too, glance at number of pages on amazon, but I hadn't thought about finding out how many of those pages were the actual work - good point, thanks! Yeah, I'm a little nervous about how well we'll be able to understand some of these works, but also getting a little excited about it.

[angela in ohio]

Here's what we did two years ago:

 

Epic of Gilgamesh

Odyssey, Iliad (Homer)

Theban Trilogy (Sophocles)

The Oresteia (Aeschylus)

The Histories (selections) (Herodotus)

Medea, Bacchae (Euripides)

Birds, Clouds (Aristophanes)

Republic (selections) (Plato)

Poetics (Aristotle)

Aeneid (Virgil)

Lives (selections) (Plutarch)

Metamorphoses (Ovid)

Annals (Tacitus)

 

We also used:

Western Civilization: Volume I (Jackson J. Spielvogel)

The History of the Ancient World (Susan Wise Bauer)

These Were the Greeks

These Were the Romans

Mythology (Edith Hamilton)

Codes of Hammurabi and Moses

Heroes of the City of Man (Leithart)

The Well-Educated Mind (Susan Wise Bauer)

Introduction to Aristotle (Harold Bloom)

How to Read a Book (Mortimer J. Adler)

Invitation to the Classics (ed. Louise Cowan and Os Guinness)

The Timetables of History (Bernard Grun)

videos:

Classical Archaeology of Ancient Greece and Rome (John R. Hale) – 18 hours

The Aeneid (Elizabeth Vandiver) – 6 hours

Mythology (Elizabeth Vandiver) – 12 hours

 

I don't know how helpful it would be to list the translations. For most of the works, I just used what I had kept from my college classes. I did buy the Landmark Herodotus, Grene & Lattimore's Sophocles I, and Fagles' Oresteia.

[swimmermom3]

My suggestion? I think you might be over-planning. If I were you, I would make a list of what we should read (definately not overplanning lol), a nice long list and then put it in order, most important first. Then I would buy the first three or four books on the list used from alibris (or something), trying to find two copies of the same edition. There are lots of Penguin Classics paperback copies floating around out there. Don't buy the rest until you know that you will get to them. The books build on each other and you might change your list as you read them. Reading one might make you want to add or eliminate another. You can look at the free scanned-into-the-internet books if it is something short, but the longer things you will want to buy. I don't think you should buy too many at once unless they are really, really cheap and you are looking at exactly the same copies of the same book. In other words, this is one of those places where you could buy lots of books and not use them or not be able to match them edition-wise. I have read things where I had a different edition (page numbers) and it was a nuisance. The only time it worked just fine was reading Shakespeare plays (I got a variety of copies out of the library early on, before everyone had their own Shakespeare) and some short things like poetry. If you can find a good cheap used hard-bound copy of complete Shakespeare, then buy it. The "translation" won't matter and it will be a life-time book. My mother still is using her college copy. I wound up having to buy good editions of The Odyssey and The Iliad and The Aeneid for my youngest because he is obviously going to reread them. We liked books that had lots of footnotes in the back explaining the cultural or historical references or translation, but you may be different. I put the audio book of The Odyssey on my sons' ipods after we had read it, so they could "reread" it. My oldest, who did not read it in public school but can pretty much quote the Oddsbodkin version requested it on his ipod, too, after he spent a summer floating around the Greek isles. If a book doesn't "go" and you have to abandon it, then I would consider getting the audiobook from the library and just having them listen to it, no discussion, no anything, while they are riding in the car or building something or doing the dishes. I think that is quite a lot better than not having read it at all. Just my opinion, though.

 

Don't be afraid to change the list as your children change and grow. In fact, expect it to. Remember that serendipity often plays a part in the appearance of resources. And I think you are very wise to plan out a reading list and buy the first half year of books. Buying one at a time, as you need them, is a good way to insure a gap while you are trying to get around to it. Buying too many at once, though, usually means unread books and wasted effort. There is a happy medium someplace. It will get easier. : )

 

Nan

 

:iagree:I would second nearly everything Nan has written here.

 

Colleen, you know I love to plan especially when it comes to literature, but buying only the first three or four books is solid advice, especially if you yourself are not familiar with the works. The study of some of these works is really a step-up for many students. Take some time with the first two books to see how your students respond. My daughter loathed Gilgamesh. I gave her Geraldine Macaughrean's version so she was familiar with story and moved on. There is more listed than is possible to cover in one year for the typical student. There is always college.;) You do classical books a major disservice if it is all about ticking them off the to-do list.

[Colleen in NS]

Here's what we did two years ago:

 

Epic of Gilgamesh

Odyssey, Iliad (Homer)

Theban Trilogy (Sophocles)

The Oresteia (Aeschylus)

The Histories (selections) (Herodotus)

Medea, Bacchae (Euripides)

Birds, Clouds (Aristophanes)

Republic (selections) (Plato)

Poetics (Aristotle)

Aeneid (Virgil)

Lives (selections) (Plutarch)

Metamorphoses (Ovid)

Annals (Tacitus)

 

Thanks, Angela. Will you tell me why you chose these particular works?

 

We also used:

Western Civilization: Volume I (Jackson J. Spielvogel)

The History of the Ancient World (Susan Wise Bauer)

These Were the Greeks

These Were the Romans

Mythology (Edith Hamilton)

Codes of Hammurabi and Moses

Heroes of the City of Man (Leithart)

The Well-Educated Mind (Susan Wise Bauer)

Introduction to Aristotle (Harold Bloom)

How to Read a Book (Mortimer J. Adler)

Invitation to the Classics (ed. Louise Cowan and Os Guinness)

The Timetables of History (Bernard Grun)

videos:

Classical Archaeology of Ancient Greece and Rome (John R. Hale) – 18 hours

The Aeneid (Elizabeth Vandiver) – 6 hours

Mythology (Elizabeth Vandiver) – 12 hours

 

I don't know how helpful it would be to list the translations. For most of the works, I just used what I had kept from my college classes. I did buy the Landmark Herodotus, Grene & Lattimore's Sophocles I, and Fagles' Oresteia.

 

I plan to use the items above that I bolded.

 

Any particular reason you used Fagles' Oresteia?

Edited April 29, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[angela in ohio]

Any particular reason you used Fagles' Oresteia?

 

I read the suggestions here, on Amazon, and in several books like WEM. Fagles seemed to be the top recommendation. Sometimed I went with what I had, though it wasn't the most recommended, but in the case of the three I listed, what I had seemed to be completely out of date or bad, based on reviews I read.

 

In order to choose our list, I compared WEM, WTM, Invitation, and Omnibus, along with lists on here and online at various Great Books colleges and classical high schools. I also tried to get a good representation of various genres.

 

I know you didn't bold it, but I'd really recommend Invitation to the Classics. Reading about the works in there helped me make some choices, and my dd enjoyed reading the commentary.

[Nan in Mass]

Colleen, I just wanted to offer you some encouragement. I think you are going to be happily surprised when you actually sit down and read these. If you are struggling at the beginning, get an audio version and listen. You can listen with the book open on your lap and pencil in hand, hitting pausing to take notes. A good reader can make all the difference in the world between understanding and not understanding. Make sure you explain to your children that the beginning of some of these works is confusing. There is often an introduction, a period where the writer is setting a framework or context up (thinking of The Republic) or looking back on the story (thinking of The Odyssey and others) or introducing the characters (thinking of The Iliad). That part can feel disjointed to our modern children. If they just persist a bit, the story (or argument) begins in earnest after a bit and suddenly everything is easier to understand. Ordinary people have understood and treasured these works for a long time. They wouldn't have remained popular if they were very obscure and difficult. I found that TWTM set even my engineering-minded child up beautifully to read the ancients fairly comfortably. I tried to let the books speak for themselves, without too much introduction to spoil the story. I suggest not reading any publisher's or translator's introduction or preface. A better introduction is to try to find some information about Marsh Arabs or cuniform for Gilgamesh (for example) or look at the picture in Spielvogel of the Greek helmet for The Iliad, something that helps your children picture these things as alive. The works build on each other, also, and refer to each other, which is fun. There are lots of works to do, so if your son tries something like Gilgamesh and hates it, just move on to the next thing. It might turn out that he likes the plays better (or something), in which case you can just read one of the epics and read lots of plays. Honestly, knowing you, I think you will be just fine. Doing great books was such a nice spot in our school day. I wish for you that it will be an equally nice spot, something to look forward to each day.

 

Nan

[Colleen in NS]

:iagree:I would second nearly everything Nan has written here.

 

Colleen, you know I love to plan especially when it comes to literature, but buying only the first three or four books is solid advice, especially if you yourself are not familiar with the works. The study of some of these works is really a step-up for many students. Take some time with the first two books to see how your students respond. My daughter loathed Gilgamesh. I gave her Geraldine Macaughrean's version so she was familiar with story and moved on. There is more listed than is possible to cover in one year for the typical student. There is always college.;) You do classical books a major disservice if it is all about ticking them off the to-do list.

 

Lisa, thank you for sharing your encouragement with me - I appreciate it. :)

 

I read the suggestions here, on Amazon, and in several books like WEM. Fagles seemed to be the top recommendation. Sometimed I went with what I had, though it wasn't the most recommended, but in the case of the three I listed, what I had seemed to be completely out of date or bad, based on reviews I read.

 

In order to choose our list, I compared WEM, WTM, Invitation, and Omnibus, along with lists on here and online at various Great Books colleges and classical high schools. I also tried to get a good representation of various genres.

 

I know you didn't bold it, but I'd really recommend Invitation to the Classics. Reading about the works in there helped me make some choices, and my dd enjoyed reading the commentary.

 

Thank you, Angela. I guess I will be reading more reviews on amazon, as well as searching the board for reviews (I seem to always forget to do a board search first before I post questions!). Also, I did have my eye on Invitation to the Classics. I'll see if I can get it through ILL.

 

Colleen, I just wanted to offer you some encouragement. I think you are going to be happily surprised when you actually sit down and read these. If you are struggling at the beginning, get an audio version and listen. You can listen with the book open on your lap and pencil in hand, hitting pausing to take notes. A good reader can make all the difference in the world between understanding and not understanding. Make sure you explain to your children that the beginning of some of these works is confusing. There is often an introduction, a period where the writer is setting a framework or context up (thinking of The Republic) or looking back on the story (thinking of The Odyssey and others) or introducing the characters (thinking of The Iliad). That part can feel disjointed to our modern children. If they just persist a bit, the story (or argument) begins in earnest after a bit and suddenly everything is easier to understand. Ordinary people have understood and treasured these works for a long time. They wouldn't have remained popular if they were very obscure and difficult. I found that TWTM set even my engineering-minded child up beautifully to read the ancients fairly comfortably. I tried to let the books speak for themselves, without too much introduction to spoil the story. I suggest not reading any publisher's or translator's introduction or preface. A better introduction is to try to find some information about Marsh Arabs or cuniform for Gilgamesh (for example) or look at the picture in Spielvogel of the Greek helmet for The Iliad, something that helps your children picture these things as alive. The works build on each other, also, and refer to each other, which is fun. There are lots of works to do, so if your son tries something like Gilgamesh and hates it, just move on to the next thing. It might turn out that he likes the plays better (or something), in which case you can just read one of the epics and read lots of plays. Honestly, knowing you, I think you will be just fine. Doing great books was such a nice spot in our school day. I wish for you that it will be an equally nice spot, something to look forward to each day.

 

Nan

 

Thank you so much Nan. And thanks for explaining the part about letting them know that sometimes the beginnings of books can be tedious to our modern minds. I am starting to find that out as I look through them. I do look forward to reading them with my kids!

Edited April 30, 2012 by Colleen in NS