Marva Collins

[stripe]

And I just want to point out too that I returned to this thread specifically in post #24 to write advice someone else gleaned from MC that I too thought was great.

[Guest]

stripe, I think you are posing a question to people that opened this thread based on the subject title. I don't usually enter such discussions as the one that has followed after the initial mention of Marva Collins book because, honestly, I don't have the time and because I am not looking to convince anyone of anything. I also know when a subject is dead in the water as someone is often looking for specific answers or to guide a discussion down a specific path. Perhaps you would get an answer if you started a new thread titled accordingly.

[Hunter]

Nurtureshock videos

[Guest]

Also I think you don't have a wide enough social experience to even know what we are talking about. To accurately understand what we are saying, you must understand the context it is said in, and it's obvious that you don't.

 

We never said any of the above.

 

:001_huh: I am confused! Do you know Jonibee personally? Also, not sure if you meant it that way but the tone sounds kind of condescending. Anyway, I am really confused now Hunter about the purpose of this thread. You have made several claims about Marva Collins but nothing coming from her book since, as you admitted, you decided not to read it. How objective is that?

[Hunter]

I've been thinking about all this a lot today, especially "underprivileged" vs "marginalized".

 

I think my boys were raised underprivileged, but surrounded by marginalized people. I think they suffered episodes of marginalization, but were also told that they were special because they carried their father's name and were part of "the family".

 

I was severely marginalized, and they suffered the consequences of being my sons, but they were not marginalized. I think the tastes they got of it, scared them, and is part of what I am seeing now.

 

The Nurtureshock videos are comparing being praised with "you are smart" vs "you work hard". They advocate saying "you work hard". They don't even touch "you are special just because all humans are special".

 

My ex-husband used to go into a rage when the idea of intrinsic worth was talked about. He is not the only one that thinks telling children they are intrinsically worthy, is a recipe for disaster. It's a very American concept to attach so much worth to work, I think.

[Hunter]

:001_huh: I am confused! Do you know Jonibee personally? Also, not sure if you meant it that way but the tone sounds kind of condescending. Anyway, I am really confused now Hunter about the purpose of this thread. You have made several claims about Marva Collins but nothing coming from her book since, as you admitted, you decided not to read it. How objective is that?

 

I did read the book, but didn't FINISH it. And I watched two 60 minutes episodes. And much of what I'm talking about is NOT about Marva. Like in so many other threads, this thread morphed into a wider topic of discussion.

[Hunter]

...I guess anyone who does anything with poor black kids in cities cannot be discussed. We just are supposed to clap. And then go back to the country club for cucumber sandwiches, I guess.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

One issue is whether the only source for evaluation is "results."

 

I'm tired of asking it, but, can we say Van Gogh or Mother Theresa were successful? Why won't anyone respond?

 

The question has been posed by greater minds than mine -- is a classical, eurocentric education best for everyone, everywhere?

 

There are even people today who do not recognize Van Gogh as anything special. And there are those that think Mother Theresa did nothing but postpone natural selection. This is all pretty much over my head. There is so much I'm only starting to ASK, never mind figure out.

 

I was raised and lived a good chunk of my adulthood, being told that natural selection would weed out the undesirables, if the government would get out of the way and let it happen. That there was great scarcity in the world and not enough to go around. When I divorced my husband after developing PTSD, the major message I got from those in my old life, was that I was committing a great sin, by living. That my life was an unfair burden to them and to the world. I only had the right to survive if my husband still wanted me and was willing to financially support me, and if I stayed with him. We all knew I wasn't going to survive the continued weight loss and constant seizing if I stayed, but I was told the only morally acceptable choice was to stay and if that meant dying, then it was meant to be. I was selfish and disgusting to leave.

 

So five years down the road from THAT, I've come a long way, but...I'm still at the point of asking questions, more than having any answers.

 

Some of the people I knew in my old life didn't think Van Gogh or Mother Theresa had the right to "suck up their oxygen" either. Their hate was towards all people that did not produce results that they thought were worth anything, and they believed that their thoughts were the "right" thoughts and the only thoughts that counted.

[Jonibee]

I think the problem is that you began this discussion by talking about Marva Collins. In your own words, you "morphed" it into something else entirely. When I posted the first time, I was talking about Marva Collins. When I posted later, it was because you said WE were discussing all this other stuff.

 

 

I read the thread, not skimmed it. I remain offended that you would talk about a "mainstream white way." (that is a direct quote from you -- I did not make that up).

 

Why don't you open a thread on the General Board to discuss the success of Van Gogh, Mother Teresa and the "mainstream white way"? I don't think it belongs here on the K-8 board, and certainly not under the title of Marva Collins.

 

Edited for: In addition (I am getting hot), are you asking for me to state my "wide social experience" in order to respond to a thread? How condescending you are.

 

Whether I have traveled and lived many places or only one, and/or rich and/or homeless, that has nothing to do with the fact that you have brought up this "mainstream white way" idea and connected it to Marva Collins and the two have nothing to do with each other. Now you want to change the subject and say, oh we are so much loftier thinkers than you? Holy cow.

 

And to think that I thought this was the K-8 CURRICULUM BOARD. Are my "social experience credentials" needed here? That sounds pretty closed minded to me. No doubt they do not measure up to where you place yourself, but then again, you might be surprised.

 

Another edit: I think the greatest failure done "to" the underprivileged and/or marginalized people is to allow them to wallow in it and promote an "oh, poor me" attitude. There is nothing to be gained by having excuses for our ignorance and making sure to tell everybody why it is okay that we are ignorant. I learned that as well, from Marva Collins.

 

But I don't have to defend Marva Collins to you. Her book speaks for itself. Maybe you should read the book.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Jonibee

[Hunter]

What rules are there that require people to stay on topic to the title?

[Jonibee]

None at all.

 

If you want to offend people and tell them that there is a "white mainstream education" to be had, go ahead.

 

If you want to offend people by telling them that they do not have the social experience required to respond to your high and mighty loftiness, go ahead.

 

Whatever floats your boat. And have a nice day.

[justamouse]

Hunter, are you OK? This thread doesn't sound like your voice normally does.

[Guest]

Yup, I said I was going to walk away a while ago and now the time has definitely come. I do not care for the tone this thread has developed. Time to unsubscribe.

[Hunter]

Hunter, are you OK? This thread doesn't sound like your voice normally does.

 

No this doesn't sound like me and I'm not pleased with myself or what is happening here.

 

Is anyone enjoying themselves? Is anyone growing as a person/parent/teacher?

 

Does it really matter who said what and when, when they were feeling emotional and defensive?

 

Can we just all drop this and try and pretend it never happened? This is just sad. Very sad that this happened. I can't even figure out how it happened.

 

If any moderators are reading this, and if the OP has the right to have a thread removed, I would love to see this thread disappear.

[Rosie_0801]

Can we just all drop this and try and pretend it never happened? This is just sad. Very sad that this happened. I can't even figure out how it happened.

 

I can.

 

 

Hope your inbox has space, I've got a blurb I've just read and you might be the person to chew over it with.

 

:)

Rosie

[Pen]

 

One issue is whether the only source for evaluation is "results."

 

I'm tired of asking it, but, can we say Van Gogh or Mother Theresa were successful? Why won't anyone respond?

 

The question has been posed by greater minds than mine -- is a classical, eurocentric education best for everyone, everywhere?

 

Mother Theresa: I think clearly the answer is yes. I anyone thinks no, I can go into that further.

 

Van Gogh: I'm not sure. He did what he was great at. I think both he and Theo probably recognized that even if the public of the time had not yet done so. And he did what he was good at and probably enjoyed doing. Certainly he left behind great art, thus did something for the world at large also. All of those factors would make me say yes..

 

Yet he seems to have been a rather unhappy and emotionally distressed person in his own experience of life. So I'm not sure about whether I'd say he was successful. I think the issue of whether he was recognized in his own lifetime is less important to my thinking here than whether he was very unhappy much of his own lifetime. OTOH, I don't think a person who is very happy but does nothing with their own talents or to help the world around is what I would call successful either. Many figures in history books who are "successful" as robber barons or despots or many who are on magazine covers as the rich and famous, do not actually meet my own sense of "success" so much as someone like Mother Theresa does. (Clearly mine is not a majority view, or the magazines would not sell.) But I think Mother Theresa was content within herself in a way that Van Gogh was not.

 

 

You could also ask, is a classical eurocentric education best for anyone anywhere? And, perhaps just as important, what are the available alternatives? Especially, what are the available excellent alternatives?

[Pen]

No this doesn't sound like me and I'm not pleased with myself or what is happening here.

 

Is anyone enjoying themselves? Is anyone growing as a person/parent/teacher?

Yes. It has helped me to think about some improtant things.

 

 

Does it really matter who said what and when, when they were feeling emotional and defensive?

 

Can we just all drop this and try and pretend it never happened? This is just sad. Very sad that this happened. I can't even figure out how it happened.

 

If any moderators are reading this, and if the OP has the right to have a thread removed, I would love to see this thread disappear.

 

Hunter, I am sorry you are feeling upset. I had already posted before I saw this from you.

 

It would be okay with me if the thread were removed. What might be better though would be if the original title could be changed so it would not so much seem to be about Marva Collins, but more about theories of education and where we want to go with teaching and raising children.

 

But actually, I think it is an extremely interesting and perhaps very very valuable thread. And I am glad that you started it.

 

ETA: Other threads have given me a book or curriculum idea or things like that, but this is the first one that has really made me think about, over all, the trajectory of what different curricula or teaching method choices might mean long term. Perhaps especially because it came at same time as I was reading Nurtureshock.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Pen

[stripe]

You could also ask, is a classical eurocentric education best for anyone anywhere? And, perhaps just as important, what are the available alternatives? Especially, what are the available excellent alternatives?

 

I'd love to discuss how one promotes knowledge of the classics AND other cultures.

 

Just like I'd like to discuss knowledge of the classics AND a science-heavy homeschooling environment.

 

So, just like I did when that discussion started to irritate people, I'm starting a social group to discuss issues related to the education of diverse cultural groups.

 

Diverse Perspectives

[Hunter]

I've calmed down some, and don't care whether the moderators delete it, leave it alone, rename it, or whatever they want.

 

I usually post from a place of logic--or attempted logic--and a place of productivity--or an attempt at productivity, and seldom from a place of emotion. Today I posted selfishly and from a place of emotion. Humans do that I'm told :-0 I tried on snippy. I'm not sure how I like the way it fits. I don't think I do. I tried it on--by accident--but while it's still on, I'm taking a another few glances in the mirror to see how it fits. It seems kind of baggy. I don't think I have anything to fill it up with.

 

You all do what you want with the thread. I probably won't respond to anything in it, but if something is ground shaking fascinating, I might not be able to help myself.

 

You all have seen snippy from me now. Time will tell where I go with the experiment.

[Pen]

I've calmed down some, and don't care whether the moderators delete it, leave it alone, rename it, or whatever they want.

 

I usually post from a place of logic--or attempted logic--and a place of productivity--or an attempt at productivity, and seldom from a place of emotion. ...

 

Yes, well, maybe that itself is part of the education system debate...should everything be logic, or where does emotion fit? Have people been truncated, or self truncated to favor only the head, but not the hands and most especially not the heart?

 

You all do what you want with the thread. I probably won't respond to anything in it, but if something is ground shaking fascinating, I might not be able to help myself.

 

You all have seen snippy from me now. Time will tell where I go with the experiment.

 

The part of Nurtureshock that was especially interesting me with regard to what I was gleaning about Marva Collins and this thread had more to do with the Tools of the Mind program (though what gets praised is also an important thing). There has been some debate how helpful Tools of the Mind really is, but the description in Nurtureshock sounded excellent. In some ways it reminded me of a program that might have some of the best features of what I know about Waldorf without the really negative dark side of Waldorf. When we first left Waldorf, the negative aspects were such that it was hard to recognize the positive ones, but having been away longer, I can now see the positive parts in particularly the emphasis on art. Tools of the Mind may not have so much art, but it has a lot of the play aspects, though far better, I think. And I am especially pleased that it allows children to choose their own play roles, but to play for an extended period of time with guidance--and also that the play seems to be more geared to real life activities rather than fairy tales. (this would help alleviate the problem of the roles of Kings, Queens, Prince and Princesses going to the blondes while the dark children are assigned to be dwarfs, trees, evil characters, animals, and toadstools--and as well, the girls being the helpless princesses and the boys being the active, capable knight...it would also help alleviate the play from becoming frenetic and chaotic, and perhaps even a free for all to gang up on certain children time, and, on the other hand, also not a rehearsed drama based on what the teacher wants to see, with no creativity left for the children--in the art area I could see emulating a model and learning A way to do it as beneficial...the similarly controlled enactments of stories did not strike me as so positive). I also liked that TofMind seemed to have a big emphasis on the use of play for learning things like executive function, but did not totally ignore academic areas. I think that, like Waldorf, the Marva Collins way has both excellent parts and non excellent parts and that it would be good to be able to find and use the excellent parts and let go of what is not, and no doubt that is also true of this Tools of the Mind thing, that it has positive and negative features, though I haven't yet learned what the negatives are.

 

 

It was, as I've been able to understand it, the program within this time in this culture that I would most myself have wanted to be in (from whatever socio-economic-ethnic-religious-gender group I can imagine for myself)--and the research that I understood was that it was extremely helpful both with inner-city "disadvantaged" "at-risk" children and in a more affluent area--that is, with children like Marva may have been trying to help, and also others...so it was not a program as I understand it, that was either exclusive of, nor exclusive to any particular type of child. Here is a link: Tools of the Mind: an article on it--last of 3 parts. Stripe, Hunter, Jonibee, 4evercanucks, Rosie, Justamouse, anyone, I'd love your thoughts.

 

Feel free to be snippy! And sorry about the run-ons, I hope what I am trying to say is reasonably clear!

Edited April 24, 2012 by Pen

[stripe]

It's been a while so I need to reread NurtureShock, but I also heard this interview with Adele Diamond

 

http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2009/learning-doing-being/

 

This appears to be a website including a lot of material on her research

http://www.devcogneuro.com/

"If we want the best academic outcomes, the most efficient and cost-effective route to achieve that is, counterintuitively, not to narrowly focus on academics, but to also address children's social, emotional, and physical development. Similarly, the best and most efficient route to physical health is through also addressing emotional, social, and cognitive wellness. Emotional wellness, similarly, depends critically on social, cognitive, and physical wellness."

Edited April 24, 2012 by stripe

[Pen]

It's been a while so I need to reread NurtureShock, but I also heard this interview with Adele Diamond

 

http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2009/learning-doing-being/

 

This appears to be a website including a lot of material on her research

http://www.devcogneuro.com/

"If we want the best academic outcomes, the most efficient and cost-effective route to achieve that is, counterintuitively, not to narrowly focus on academics, but to also address children's social, emotional, and physical development. Similarly, the best and most efficient route to physical health is through also addressing emotional, social, and cognitive wellness. Emotional wellness, similarly, depends critically on social, cognitive, and physical wellness."

 

That's interesting. Thank you for the links.

[Guest]

:lurk5:

 

I'm reading Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers.

 

Thank you for mentioning Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers. I did not know about it. I am halfway through Marva Collins' Way (I will be reading it again to take notes) and have found Mrs. Collins to be such an inspiration, I just bought Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers on Kindle :).

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thank you for mentioning Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers. I did not know about it. I am halfway through Marva Collins' Way (I will be reading it again to take notes) and have found Mrs. Collins to be such an inspiration, I just bought Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers on Kindle :).

 

You're welcome. :001_smile:

 

It's the only book of hers I've read, so I don't know how much of it is redundant.

 

I'm only partway through the book, but I've implemented a few of her ideas and have found them beneficial.

 

It's interesting to compare and contrast her methods with some other books I've read lately.

[stripe]

I've typed up some of Mary McLeod Bethune's writings in the social group.

[Guest]

You're welcome. :001_smile:

 

It's the only book of hers I've read, so I don't know how much of it is redundant.

 

I'm only partway through the book, but I've implemented a few of her ideas and have found them beneficial.

 

Some of her methods on integrated LA remind me of Spalding, only Spalding introduces the phonograms slightly differently. I'm sticking with Spalding on that :). I like how she uses the reading lessons to incorporate phonics and spelling. I also like how she used daily occurrences in the class and tied them in with stories from the past, while focusing on teaching the kids, values.

 

This is from Marva Collins' Way pg. 73-74. I have not started the one you are reading yet. To think that I had her book and it was sitting on my bookcase for a while and was not at the top of my to read list! This thread made me pull it out and read it now :).

 

Here's the quote I mentioned above. Reading this really moved me:

 

With this came the realization, that I couldn't escape the problem, as a teacher or as a mother. These parts of life were inextricably interwoven; at Delano I was fighting for the kind of education I wanted for my own children. As a parent I tended to be protective, and I always felt the same driving concern as a teacher. I could never walk out of Delano at 3:15 and leave the school and the students entirely behind me. Were my students going home or would they wander the streets? Were their clothes warm enough? Would their stomachs be full tonight and would they have sheets on their beds?

 

During recess I watched from the doorway to make sure no child was being picked on by classmates or excluded from games. And when I saw anyone standing off alone, I took the child's hand, called the other children over, and began a new play circle. It was important to me that the children feel accepted in their group. I knew all to well what it felt like to be ostracized.

That's a true educator! A type of breed you do not come across too often! Her words, her actions, her life... everything has impacted my way of thinking. I can relate to her way of thinking because we hold the same values in many ways so it did not take much for her to gain my respect and admiration :). I downloaded some Tolstoy books (I read Tolstoy when I was slightly older than my oldest is now, around 11). I am looking forward to sharing some of Tolstoy's works with my son soon! Her mentality and approach will definitely have an impact on the way I homeschool! I even tried to find some of the old Open Court readers she used but not much out there, especially since I am in Canada. I was mostly interested because she said they were not your typical readers.

 

I am currently also reading The Well-Trained Mind and looking at going classical from now on. Eclectic is just not cutting it for me anymore :tongue_smilie:. For myself I am reading The Well-Educated Mind but have not started implementing it yet. I am definitely looking forward to incorporating some of Marva Collins' approach too :).

 

 

It's interesting to compare and contrast her methods with some other books I've read lately.

 

Any other good books to recommend :bigear:?

Edited April 26, 2012 by Guest

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Any other good books to recommend :bigear:?

 

 

I read Too Much of A Good Thing by Dan Kindlon shortly before starting the Marva Collins book. It is not a homeschooling book, but a parenting book. It comes from the opposite end of the spectrum--kids with cell phones, computers, cars, hired help, and weekend and/or vacation homes. Interestingly, some the of the problems the children had were the same--lack of motivation, getting into trouble, not reaching one's potential, etc.

 

I'm not sure I would recommend the book, but reading the two was interesting. I'm glad to see the different perspectives the books offer. Sometimes the solutions vary wildly, but many times the recommendation is the same--hard work and self-discipline.

[Guest]

I read Too Much of A Good Thing by Dan Kindlon shortly before starting the Marva Collins book. It is not a homeschooling book, but a parenting book. It comes from the opposite end of the spectrum--kids with cell phones, computers, cars, hired help, and weekend and/or vacation homes. Interestingly, some the of the problems the children had were the same--lack of motivation, getting into trouble, not reaching one's potential, etc.

 

I'm not sure I would recommend the book, but reading the two was interesting. I'm glad to see the different perspectives the books offer. Sometimes the solutions vary wildly, but many times the recommendation is the same--hard work and self-discipline.

 

I see your point. It doesn't sound like Too Much of a Good Thing is what I have been looking for presently. Thanks for replying :).

[caffeineandbooks]

Zombie thread