Marva Collins

[Hunter]

I just bought Marva Collin's Way. I think it was Stripe I heard about it from? I haven't read enough of it yet to have questions or comments, but thought I'd open up discussion about the book and her teaching philosophy, if anyone is interested.

 

[stripe]

Poke Salad Annie and several other posters have written more about her than I have, actually. I read a copy after several of their posts.

 

As an aside - I bought another book by her and it is full of Ayn Rand quotes -- not quite the impression I got from Marva Collins' Way. She said somewhere that they study Fountainhead in 3rd grade.

 

You can find the 60 Minutes videos about her, showing her students, on You Tube.

[KristenR]

I have it on my wishlist but haven't picked it up yet. I'll be listening in.

:lurk5:

[G5052]

I teach in the classroom and online in additional to homeschooling, so there was a lot that I gained from her.

 

The biggest lesson for me was that curriculum is secondary. Who you are and what you bring to the table in terms of attitude, flexibility, and organization make all the difference.

[pehp]

I bought this a few weeks ago and haven't started it yet, but will soon--so I'll be popping back in here!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

:lurk5:

 

I'm reading Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers.

[Hunter]

Thanks for the tip about the 60 Minutes videos. I watched both sets at youtube.

 

I think she did her absolutely best, and more, with the tools she had to work with. BUT I don't think things need to be THAT black and white. Sometimes...when I see disadvantaged groups try to catch up with the ruling power, there seems such pain and self-neglect to get there. And I wonder if getting there is always worth it.

 

I think there is MORE to life than competing with the ruling power, and adopting the culture of the ruling power. If we tell a child that is ALL there is, and that he CAN do it if he works till he drops, and we reward him for practicing self-neglect, what are the long term results? Yes, initially the child catches up, but at what cost? And has the child been brainwashed? And is the ends worth the means?

 

The children of the ruling power don't have to work that hard, and they will still hold the power most of the time. If too many people catch up, the ruling power will just change the rules.

 

Ecclesiastes calls it chasing the wind, and says there is no end to books.

 

Yes to produce is good, maybe even great, but our ability to make money and grab power isn't what makes us worthy. We just ARE worthy. Even if the people in control don't think everyone is worthy, it doesn't make ANYONE unworthy. Do we help children making them think their entire self-worth is dependent on how much they produce. Does that lead to abuse and self-neglect in adults, and result in mental health problems?

 

I was raised with that concept and it prompted me to PUSH myself past the breaking point. I was told to make bricks with no straw, and that if I didn't make good bricks I should be dead, because I had no worth. So somehow, someway with no straw I made bricks anyway, and people validated me. And it all seemed good, for awhile, but...it didn't last.

 

The children in the videos reminded me of myself and the other children who attended churches that were borderline--or fully crossed over to--a cult, and parroted what the leaders and adults told us. The children reminded me of children who despite growing up in horrible abuse still manage to laugh and have fun and love their parents.

 

Do I think what Marve Collins did with those children was amazing? Yes, but...amazing doesn't always mean all good. Do I think what she did was all good? No I don't. I don't think she knew any better though. I think she gave those children EVERYTHING she had and more and she taught the children to give EVERYTHING they had, and more.

 

Watching those videos made me sad. I felt like Marva and the children were still being held down, no matter how hard they worked. I don't feel like they "made it" and don't really believe in an "it". Yes, they beat some of the ruling power at their own game, and they became good little ruling power clones, but what did they really win?

 

Validation from people that enjoy the ultimate validation when they see people work so hard to become like them? The host seemed so smug. I wanted to smack him. 'Look how hard they worked to become like me. I must be someone really special,' I can imagine him thinking.

 

They earned access to nicer clothes and food and healthcare and homes. That is something, but...far from everything. And what did earning access to those things cost them?

 

Do I think attending the local school would have been worse? Yes! But...I wish this wasn't the only other option. For those children then, and children now.

 

I don't think I will finish the book. At least not right now. It makes me sad. I'm going to pull out my art supplies and make some art, instead. I wish the children had been taught some art too, instead of to write smug little essays about how they didn't do art.

[besroma]

:lurk5:

[Pen]

Don't currently know enough about it to comment. Listening in.

[stripe]

Sometimes...when I see disadvantaged groups try to catch up with the ruling power, there seems such pain and self-neglect to get there. And I wonder if getting there is always worth it.

 

I think there is MORE to life than competing with the ruling power, and adopting the culture of the ruling power. If we tell a child that is ALL there is, and that he CAN do it if he works till he drops, and we reward him for practicing self-neglect, what are the long term results? Yes, initially the child catches up, but at what cost? And has the child been brainwashed? And is the ends worth the means?

...

The children in the videos reminded me of myself and the other children who attended churches that were borderline--or fully crossed over to--a cult, and parroted what the leaders and adults told us.

...

I don't think I will finish the book. At least not right now. It makes me sad. I'm going to pull out my art supplies and make some art, instead. I wish the children had been taught some art too, instead of to write smug little essays about how they didn't do art.

 

I had some of these feelings myself. It was amazing on the one hand to see that she taught students who had been given up on as being able to learn. I was really glad to see examples of people from poor neighborhoods succeed in terms of refuting the stereotypes. But as you say, what else does her method bring with it? And how narrow is the idea of success? Isn't it better than life in prison or whatever crummy misery awaits too many? I too shuddered that they dudn't have time for art. I also think the no recess rule does not aid learning. But...? so much to ponder.

 

I obtained a copy of the text the students are reading -- after a lot of guesswork and squinting at the screen. It's an Open Court reader called A Trip Around The World. It is sort of a strange book, in a way. Like, it has this smattering of info about each of various countries, so for the UK, things like Big Ben, the Thames, policemen are called bobbies, and the incident with Sir Walter Raleigh shown in the tape. All the seemingly impressive tidbits about the UK the students know are straight from the book. Which is okay on one level, because it helps quickly establish a background for kids about things they might otherwise never have heard of, that are common and known to many educated Americans. But it makes me think, if I read a bunch of Cliffs Notes, did I really learn a book? To me, the drill aspect, where it's one thing after the next, rat tat tat, sort of scared me. That was the part of her book that I didn't like and led me to ignore it, although I did come back years later for a second read.

 

I think what's a bit cultish is the conflation of praise and terms of endearment with judgments or corrections (see p 102 for examples).

 

I also hate, hate the way she teaches them to read, all that talking and discussion of the German schwa confuses me. "She printed the word associated on the board with its phonetic spelling. 'The base word is associate. German schwa sound on the a, then macron o, macron e, macron a. Associate. And what does associate mean?" (p 62)

 

She totally has an agenda, which includes her libertarian politics including but not limited to reading Fountainhead, which she somewhere says is the school's bible. Unlike, say, Charlotte Mason, I think Marva Collins was pushing her agenda and interpretation all the time. The students are supposed to think her way (see p 91 where the author of the book says, "everything the students read or wrote would bear upon that theme" -- specifically that "if we don't think for ourselves, others....will do our thinking for us. We must each be the captain of our fate and the master of our soul").

 

Hunter, an interesting set of discussions was conducted by Tavis Smiley, on a show called Too Important To Fail, centering on African American boys in high school. It is not nearly so smug or smarmy, nor is it a downer.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/too-important-to-fail/

[HejKatt]

I'll have to check back after re-reading the book but the first time I read it, I was impressed and wanted to find out what happened to the students mentioned.

 

This follow-up video is positive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LPpsp_Qh0

 

However, the school itself closed in 2008

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6188122

 

A distressing point - the comments in the latter indicate that Marva's daughter Cynthia (who ran Westside Prep) committed suicide soon after the school's closure. I couldn't find more information online, but am saddened. I don't intend this to reflect on Marva Collin's teaching, just wanted to muse on what it takes to sustain the spark that is first ignited by a dedicated teacher/parent.

[Vida Winter]

A distressing point - the comments in the latter indicate that Marva's daughter Cynthia (who ran Westside Prep) committed suicide soon after the school's closure. I couldn't find more information online, but am saddened. I don't intend this to reflect on Marva Collin's teaching, just wanted to muse on what it takes to sustain the spark that is first ignited by a dedicated teacher/parent.

 

That is terribly sad about Cynthia if it is true. I sincerely hope it is not true. I found the book to be a tremendous inspiration -- Marva started with essentially nothing and built that school. The Open Court readers were discards that she picked up from the trash. She had no luxury of selecting curriculum - she was winging it the whole way. I haven't seen any of the youtube vids but hindsight is 20-20 and I believe Marva did the best she could with what she had to work with.

[Angie in VA]

I see some videos linked, but I'm linking this post. Just checked all the links and they still work.

 

I really hope that's not true about Cynthia!

[Joyofsixreboot]

I remembered seeing the 60 Minutes piece as a kid. I read the book when someone here talked about it. I was interested since I use the Open Court readers. I believe she did what she thought was best for the kids even if you don't agree with all of her premises or methods.

[Hunter]

 

I also hate, hate the way she teaches them to read, all that talking and discussion of the German schwa confuses me. "She printed the word associated on the board with its phonetic spelling. 'The base word is associate. German schwa sound on the a, then macron o, macron e, macron a. Associate. And what does associate mean?" (p 62)

 

 

I think she was spending a great deal of time on the student's SPEECH. I do this too. It is why I use both Spalding and CGE dictionary respellings.

 

The children spoke in a dialect that was not the dialect of the people in power. So much more is caught than taught. When children do not have the opportunity to HEAR the "right" grammar and pronunciation they are not able to imitate it. They have to work SO hard to be TAUGHT, what other children just have the opportunity to absorb.

 

Children without access to "educated" and "correct" speech need to be able to read the dictionary pronunciations, so they can look up the words they are reading, if they are going to be able to add them to their SPEECH, rather than only being able to write them. And they common words need to be written and analyzed letter by letter.

 

I have to frequently analyze the pronunciation of "pen" with one student. It drives her nuts. I have finally gotten used to her needing a "pin", but other people that she interacts with have not.

 

One of the reasons that I love CGE so much, is that is written for students who speak a mixture of an "uneducated" form on English, and a foreign language.

[Hunter]

I remembered seeing the 60 Minutes piece as a kid. I read the book when someone here talked about it. I was interested since I use the Open Court readers. I believe she did what she thought was best for the kids even if you don't agree with all of her premises or methods.

 

So do I. I'm not judging. I'm just sad. I did a lot of what she did to my own boys, because I didn't know any better.

[stripe]

I don't doubt that Marva Collins was sincere and encouraged very hard work on the part of her students. I simply find her methods and personal philosophy to be worth discussing. As Hunter said, there are things to ponder about the methods of "empowering" what are typically called disadvantaged students. Just like (taking an example not from Marva Collins) different methods of teaching people to speak English. Some people in some times have humiliated those who speak their own language or punish them, which ultimately teaches that English is a superior, "good" language and the child's native language is "bad."

 

Three of the comments in the ABC article linked indicate these parents felt the administration (was ts under her daughter?) was exceptionally harsh, and punitive. Is that the only approach(combative) to take with poor black parents and children in order to "get results"? I don't think so, because MC herself was not that way.

 

This is an article from Ebony in 1996: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n2_v52/ai_18953523/

 

I also believe that, despite finding her materials in unusual ways, she did have standards about what she used and did NOT just use any old thing. She liked the Open Court readers and other older materials that schools were getting rid of, better than the new stuff.

 

Per this article Marva Collins took in her granddaughter after Cynthia died and enrolled her in a Catholic school. "I considered homeschooling, but I put her in school for the social interaction." Also, "When Nena was worried about what children said about her, Marva had her memorize the poem, Invictus: “I’m the captain of my fate; I’m the master of my soul. If you can’t remember that, you are always going to be defined by what you hear,” Marva told Nena. “When you believe what they call you, then you don’t know who you are. And if you don’t know who you are, you are every label anybody gives you.” "

Edited April 20, 2012 by stripe

[Hunter]

Stripe, thank you for those links.

 

FAILURE is the one word that has no place in Marva Collins' extensive vocabulary. She will neither accept it for herself nor tolerate it from her students. Like Sojourner Truth, she tells her students: "Every tub must sit on its own bottom." Like Harriet Tubman, she thunders: "You will learn--I won't let you fail."

 

I used to believe this. But I have learned that failures are an inevitable part of life, and one of the best things we can learn, and teach others, is how to fail with dignity.

 

Self-esteem is also promoted through proverbs. Teachers in all grades display inspirational signs on their classroom walls.

 

"The more we do the more we can do."

 

"The quest for excellence gives dignity to a person."

 

"Failure is just as easy to combat as success is to obtain."

 

"I was born to win if I do not spend too much time trying to fail."

 

I've been thinking a lot about dignity lately. I think I have observed the most dignity from the Native American peoples. During times of failure and defeat, they remained dignified, even when starved, dirty and imprisoned. Why? It wasn't the Great Books that gave them that powerful...I'm not sure what to call it.

 

My goal isn't to win. My goal is to have the best quality of life that I can, and sometimes that means choosing not to try and win every race that people try shame me into running.

 

These proverbs are good, but I just think there is MORE. And I believe in mind, body, spirit. If we only exercise the mind, and ignore the body and spirit, we won't live very long or well.

 

The brain is an organ, like any other organ. It needs nutrition, hydration, and rest. The brain is physically damaged by abuse and neglect, and ceases to perform well when not cared for properly.

 

Marginalized people are often suffering from PHYSICAL barriers, that shouldn't always be pushed through, without recognition of the risks. They need to learn how to pace themselves through a marathon that is harder for them to run, than some others.

 

Marginalized people need to learn not to plot their path based on trying to reduce the shame being inflicted upon them. Shame is a powerful weapon. You can get a person to do most anything of you shame them, and then give them just one option to remove that shame.

 

I'm not judging Marva. I did much of what she did and worse. I just trying to move on, and learn from my mistakes.

 

I'm sorry if my responses are choppy and disorganized. This is all triggering for me, as well as interesting. I'm wrestling with all of this in a completely potshot fashion, sometimes randomly choosing what to respond to.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Hunter

[stripe]

And what constitutes "failure"? I think perhaps some things are more controversial than others. To her, clearly, becoming a criminal and accepting help from anyone (=welfare/charity) were the big no-nos. But is it failure if someone does not have a great career, for example? How does that reflect on some of the great artists who only achieved recognition after death, such as Van Gogh, whom no one today would call an artistic flop but only sold one painting in his life, and certainly his own mental issues affected him badly. What if you merely volunteer or pick a poorly paying profession? Are you a failure? If you only educate your own children well, and not other kids in the community, is that enough?

 

About dignity, I think there is something here worth considering. Must one earn dignity, or is one endowed by his/her creator with dignity? Is dignity a human right?

 

Is every failure due to one's own laxity about success? This reminds me of the new-agey type stuff about sending positive energy into the universe, so your breast cancer reflects that you didn't try hard enough. Is this compatible with most people's religious beliefs? For example, for Jews, Christians, and Muslims, most of the prophets had pretty rough lives. I don't recall too many of them living well. God gave severe tests to those prophets (including but not limited to Job), not heaps of material blessings. So is one a failure because one's life doesn't end up with much to show for it on one means of measuring?

 

I suspect what she was trying to depict was something so extremely different from what the kids in her classroom knew about, maybe she bent over a bit far backwards, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

In the Tavis Smiley show I really was happy that he spoke with young men who are in juvenile detention facilities about how their education failed them AND also showed a really interesting looking writing program for high school boys.

 

I would be interested to see how Geoffrey Canada's Harlem Children's Zone compares to Marva Collins. He set out to eliminate any "achievement gap" from the beginning, by doing things like encouraging new parents to read to their kids right away. I need to look up more details about his approach.

http://www.hcz.org/

[Jonibee]

I love the Marva Collins book. I've read it or parts of it many times.

 

What struck me first when I was a new homeschooler was that Marva met the kids where they were academically but immediately drew them to a higher place --- she believed in them even when they did not believe in themselves. She was no nonsense. Education was for everybody, not just those who were of "this particular learning style" or that one. The education was of the ancients -- people I had never heard about -- Socrates and Plato. Just quotes sprinkled here and there. The classics.

 

She modeled for the kids class. She dressed and carried herself with class. She encouraged all of her students to do the same.

 

Because of reading her book, I stopped being a sweat pants wearing mom and started dressing to my shoes with makeup and hair fixed even before my kids were up.

 

I began to find education to be something noble, something that adds to a person's self-worth, rather than just facts and facts. I don't know what that makes me, but I find that knowing things makes me feel good. I think kids like to be smart, interested and interesting. I think kids value an education when they get one, but make excuses for the non-value of education when they didn't get or aren't getting one.

 

I read Marva Collins long before SWB's book and I carried a lot of good away from it. In my own life, she has greatly influenced my appreciation for my children -- she taught me how to "brag on my kids" -- something that people in these days rarely do. I am very glad to have read her book. It is one of my top 5 homeschool encouragement books to read every once in awhile. Marva Collins teaches in many of the same ways that I mother -- no nonsense, we do this or that because we respect ourselves and others around us. We are responsible for ourselves, etc. I realize I may be in the minority here, but that is okay because I'm really just some lady on the internet. YMMV.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Jonibee

[Hunter]

When we read biographies, I think we zone in on what we currently NEED to move forward. We look for examples to imitate or avoid.

 

I think those of us who are appearing most critical, are those with marginalized students, desperate to figure out some things, we are not so sure about. We are laying stuff out, to have a little group talk, more about IDEAS, than about MARVA.

 

This is NOT meant to be a negative review of Marva! As I said, I've done worse. It's been 5 1/2 years now since I walked away from my old life. I've come a long way, but I've got so far to go yet.

 

For Marva, for me, for so many others here, we can only teach what we know. And if we don't have conversations like this one, hard conversations, then we will keep repeating mistakes that don't need to be made.

 

If Marva had been able to be part of a group talk like this, you can bet she would have learned and taught some important things that would have made everyone involved a better teacher. But she had just what she had. I had just what I had. Others here had just what they had. Now we move on and try to do better.

 

Sometimes dressing is important. At one time I worked as a teacher's aide in a school for severely disabled preschoolers. It made me SO mad the way the teachers dressed. I caused problems because I dressed more professionally than they did. But I just couldn't disrespect the children and parents that way. I remembered how my sons' teachers had dressed and was bound and determined to treat my students with the same respect, even if they did drool all over me. As for homeschooling dress...I don't have an opinion :-)

[stripe]

I am going to watch all the videos on the Harlem Children's Zone website that I have time for in the next few days. I haven't ever seen anything of theirs. I've only heard a few interviews.

 

I've got nothing against Marva Collins, by the way. I don't know her.She seems to be one tough lady. I don't agree with all her premises, but she knows many things I don't, so I don't presume to tell her she is wrong! I just wonder about her methods. The thing I like most about her is that she didn't believe her students are worthless.

Edited April 20, 2012 by stripe

[Hunter]

The thing I like most about her is that she didn't believe her students are worthless.

 

I think the children got a little confused about WHY they were not worthless :-(

[stripe]

I think the children got a little confused about WHY they were not worthless :-(

Indeed.

 

Here is a gem from Milestones Academy, in an article on teaching Shakespeare with lists of tips inspired by Marva Collins' use of Plutarch and Shakespeare in her school: "Don't ask canned questions in study guides prepared by others. Model thinking skills by thinking for yourself."

 

Ouch. That's a good one.

[Hunter]

These instructions can be applied to any difficult to read books that are not usually read by children. I've used these ideas with everything from the Bible to Caesar's Gallic War.

 

Waldorf has opened my eyes ever further that the children might never even see the text at all, and that I might be creating the retellings myself.

 

I think the point is to have the child love the great instead of the good. To spoon feed chewed up bits of the great, if they can't chew it on their own.

 

Before baby food, some moms and nannies would chew the meat, and give bits of it to the child, even in "civilized" families. They just didn't talk a lot about it, the same way they didn't speak much about nursing.

 

The plus to this method, is that it's certainly cheaper not to have to purchase separate books for the younger students, or prepare separate lessons for them.

 

I go back and forth and around in circles with my educational philosophies, but...I seem to stay dead stuck on the idea that humans are born with intrinsic worth as their birthright. As long as a educational philosophy includes that "truth" AND teaches a child to work and love, then it'll all work out in the end in my opinion. If we teach worthiness, work, and love; we can't help but teach important things.

 

I just believe worthiness is entirely separate from work and whether or not anyone loves us. We don't become worthy because we make money; or make money by proxy, because we are loved by someone that makes money, or is important in some way.

 

Right now, and it's apt to change, but I'm finding much worth is providing students with material that they can successfully read aloud with passion and skill. Reading to them, paraphrasing for them, even having them read silently; are not substitutes for children reading aloud.

 

Also I'm finding the need to provide stories of milk and dolls and hearths, for students that never experienced those things as children. I'm not talking about

1980s style inner child exercises, but...using the arts--including the art of literature--to fill in some missing developmental milestones. I think rushing too quickly into an exclusive diet of "adult" books without providing any milk can leave a student with emotional rickets--bowed soft legs never capable of supporting adult weight.

 

Paul talks about the need to grow up and start eating meat instead of just consuming milk, but I don't think it ever entered his mind to SKIP the milk stage.

 

I don't have any real answers. I'm just rambling :-)

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it :confused:! Here's a woman that took a bunch of kids that could have now been living an impoverished life, dead or in jail, and gave them a chance to a future. How is that bad :confused:? I guess I should read the book to get it because I don't see what some of you are seeing. Did she make mistakes? I am sure she did. What educator hasn't? I am sure one day I will have regrets for certain things I did or did not do while educating my kids. Summing her life's work to what are being called ill adjusted, brainwashed kids, is just not what I am seeing here.

[stripe]

Summing her life's work to what are being called ill adjusted, brainwashed kids, is just not what I am seeing here.

No one said that, so I don't know what you're talking about. No one said they were "ill adjusted." No one said everything Marva Collins did was bad. At all. The conversation, mostly between Hunter and me, has been much more nuanced and ponderous, much less self-assured than that, and often more about ideas than about Mrs. Collins.

 

We were discussing the various interpretations of success and whether urban, poor black kids have only one path to success, and whether economic independence from the government via the libertarianism is the only or best source for freedom for individuals, and the belief that the individual is solely in control of his/her destiny.

 

We were also discussing what it means to have "a future"? Is there only one way to have a future -- the mainstream white way?

 

There have been times where people have been purposely divorced from their culture, as it was judged by mainstream society to be putting them at a disadvantage, and this was seen as a way to help them. Is there anything of the dangers of this that we should consider when dealing with some of today's children-- how to lift them up without denigrating their culture and background?

 

That being said, I still shudder at all the talk about the German schwa. Hunter, on the other hand, liked that part!

[Hunter]

Marie, you are right that I am coming on a bit stronger than Stripe. Having come from a place of having done some of what Marva did and having STRONG feelings of regret for having done that, I feel strongly about the TOPIC, not what MARVA did. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

 

As I now am tutoring mostly marginalized people, I'm pretty desperate not to wake up in 5 years and have similar regret about what I am doing NOW.

 

When I talk to one of my sons on the phone, I can hear how still brainwashed he is about WHY he is worthy and important, and his ideas about the self-worth of others. I'm thankful that his wife has a best friend who is deeply researching and working with trauma victims, because she is setting him straight about some things. Not only does he treat others cruelly and negligently, but he is cruel and self-negligent with himself. I had NO way of knowing any better. I couldn't have done better, with the tools I had to work with. I'm deeply grateful I accomplished what I did with my boys and have no way to explain how I accomplished what I did.

 

I want to move on though, to better ways. We need to analyze the past for clues to how we can do better. Marva's past. My past. The past of anyone else who's history is relevant.

[Guest]

I still don't follow why this is an issue only with African American kids. Most Europeans that moved to North America have adapted to the "new world". Why is it that all those that have changed their life and made something of themselves are now being considered as having given up their culture, values or what have you. I am trying to ponder this along with you. I really tried to stay away from this thread but, I am sorry, I started seeing someone's life's work being marginalized and I just don't see her intentions being anything other than to help these kids. Pondering? I am not debating that but shouldn't one also look at the times? Shouldn't one take into consideration the quality of life these kids had prior to Marva Collins? Where they would have been today should Marva Collins never have existed? Does becoming a lawyer, teacher or whatever, mean that you have given up on your culture or have been forced to give up on your culture in order to live with or like the white folks :confused:? Doesn't our life evolve regardless of who we are or where we came from?

Edited April 22, 2012 by Guest

[Hunter]

I am not applying this to only African American students. Marginalized people include many groups. Women, transgender, gay, foreign born, "illegitimate", of divorced parents, or just one foreign parent, mentally disabled, physically disabled, overweight, religion, the list goes on and on.

 

In the USA, the laws to protect some of the above groups are frighteningly antiquated. Some of these marginalized people do not have the legal rights given to the typical non marginalized person, never mind have them enforced.

 

The African American struggle is just one example of marginalized people. African Americans have more legal rights than many of the above groups. African American struggles are sometimes one of the best examples of a marginalized people, to use, to have a general discussion.

 

This discussion had gotten wide, and I can feel that my brain is currently too fragmented to answer a wide question. I'll have to potshot bits and pieces as my mind figures out a way to grab a chunk of the big picture, so I can respond to just that chunk.

 

I'm going to try and make sense, but...no promises :-0 I need to regroup and come back to this later.

[stripe]

I still don't follow why this is an issue only with African American kids.

It's not. I talked about linguistic devaluation multiple times including Native Americans and Canadians who were taken from their homes.

 

Doesn't our life evolve regardless of who we are or where we came from?

Not everyone believes that one type of society is one that we should all be aspiring to. As a Canadian, surely you can imagine that one can be hardworking, not impoverished, and perhaps even morally upstanding, yet also get government assistance. Some religious people (including Christians, which Collins is) might wonder at the assertion that individuals are the captains of their fates. Not everyone believes society is an evolution towards ever-better ends. Some people think other ways might be better.

 

I posed the question about Van Gogh. Was he a success? What about other famous writers and artists who sold nothing and died unrecognized, yet were geniuses, and are now celebrated. How does that sort of rubric for success rate Socrates and Vivaldi? What about those who led tormented lives? What about Mary Lamb, who killed her own mother yet wrote those dandy summaries of Shakespeare? How many others killed themselves, killed someone else, or mutilated themselves, or ruined their lives with drugs and alcohol, yet are lauded as artistically successful?

 

I also posed the question of religious models, including those considered prophets or saints by various religious groups. Was Mother Theresa successful? Was Job a success? How about other historical notables? How about Joan of Arc? Gandhi? Martin Luther King? Would we be wrong to emulate them because they didn't have great "jobs" and a high salary?

 

These questions -- that we have been posing throughout the thread -- are hardly African American specific, and are not so much about Marva Collins.

 

I think the thread deserves another look before concluding we're bashing Marva Collins.

Edited April 22, 2012 by stripe

[Guest]

No worries Hunter! You don't have to come back to this for my sake. I am not trying to get into the conversation you are having with stripe. I avoid controversial topics as much as I possibly can. I came on here because I felt someone needed to speak for Marva Collins.

 

Regardless of the wide scope that this discussion has taken, it has been labeled with Marva Collins' name, and I did not feel it was right to just let it close with an underlying message that seems to be devaluing what she was actually trying to accomplish. One of the things that I am strongly opposed to in the first place, is the use of the word "marginalized", but that's just me. That was one thing about Marva Collins that should be pointed out, she did not see these kids as marginalized and she did see their true worth, as far as I can see, at least from watching the videos. She declined offers to become Secretary of Education from two different presidents in order to serve these kids. In one of the videos she shares how she told the kids, look at these eyes, these are special eyes, no one else has these eyes. Look at this nose, this is a special nose, no one else has one like it. How does this say that she did not show these kids why they were worthwhile? How does her dedication and self-sacrifice not show how much she valued these kids?

 

As for the situation in the US, nothing is black and white. There is more to it and one needs to observe a situation from all angles in order to be able to comment. I am not in that position nor do I wish to put myself in such a position, so I am walking away. Just trying to hold Marva Collins name up high, just like the standards she tried to live by. And now off to read Marva Collins Way, since this thread made me drop what I was reading in order to read her book, and form my own opinion ;).

Edited April 22, 2012 by Guest

[Hunter]

marginalize |ˈmärjənəˌlīz|

verb [ with obj. ]

treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral: attempting to marginalize those who disagree | (as adj. marginalized) : members of marginalized cultural groups.

 

I don't know how Marva Collins felt about the term, but I like it. It only refers to how a group is treated, not anything about them. And it groups together the similar situations for all these groups, instead of focusing on the specific reason a group is marginalized. The point is that the group is denied their basic human rights, not the petty reason why.

 

Humans who don't see their own intrinsic worth, only feel worthy when they feel superior to as many other people as possible. So they look for differences to prey upon, and to use as an excuse to marginalize a group. If they don't find one thing they will just find another. The issue isn't the difference. The difference is meaningless.

 

The methods used to help a group "rise" are sometimes more of the original abuse being inflicted upon them. It leads to isolation, feelings of superiority towards their birth group, deeper insecurity than they started with, self-neglect, loss of individuality, and often eventually mental illness.

 

In many Western countries, "rising" and "excellence" are synonymous with becoming more "white" and "wealthy". The rising children are often denied art and other "non essential" subjects. They are often restricted from fresh air, exercise and proper rest. They are often mocked for acting like children and "babies". They are often isolated from and taught to despise their peers. They are told their worth is based on their performance and success. This is the biggie. In the effort to separate them from their "bad" peers, they are taught that the most important thing is that they don't become like their peers. Their peers become an example to fear becoming like, because they are told their peers are worthless and bad. They live in terror of becoming like their peers and also becoming worthless and bad. They are called "amazing" BECAUSE they are not like their peers.

 

Both of my boys have been called "amazing" over and over. I mucked up though, and really badly. Because they despise their peers and don't understand their intrinsic worth and the intrinsic worth of others.

 

At 21 my oldest had been managing a retail store for a year. He fired a 22 year old employee for being a few minutes late 3 times and wearing sneakers to work. Not only did he fire him, but made sure to put in his record that he shouldn't be rehired by any other stores in the company for at least 10 years. His father came in to try and ask for some leniency and my son proceeded to mock the man for coming in to rescue his "baby", and lectured him about his bad parenting skills. Sigh! NOT okay behavior. Yes my son is "amazing" but I am grieved by this and other similar incidents.

[stripe]

Let me know if you ever have the time or interest to look at the Harlem Children's Zone site. I keep meaning to go watch their videos. I read one newsletter a few days ago and quite enjoyed it, frankly. One thing that jumped out at me was that they don't tell the parents what to do, for example, about spanking and whatnot. They present information and let the parents think about it on their own. They also use a lot of peer education. I found that really interesting but I want to see their school programs.

[Hunter]

Let me know if you ever have the time or interest to look at the Harlem Children's Zone site. I keep meaning to go watch their videos. I read one newsletter a few days ago and quite enjoyed it, frankly. One thing that jumped out at me was that they don't tell the parents what to do, for example, about spanking and whatnot. They present information and let the parents think about it on their own. They also use a lot of peer education. I found that really interesting but I want to see their school programs.

 

Links? I clicked on the site, but am overwhelmed.

 

What does everyone think about Mary McLeod Bethune? I had trouble finding out more about her and her methods. I really appreciated her "Greek and a Toothbrush" quote and her emphasis on "Hands, heart, head".

[stripe]

I just clicked on the items under Programs at the HCZ. I've heard a few interviews but not seen things.

 

Check this out http://www.floridamemory.com/OnlineClassroom/MaryBethune/

[Hunter]

I just clicked on the items under Programs at the HCZ. I've heard a few interviews but not seen things.

 

Check this out http://www.floridamemory.com/OnlineClassroom/MaryBethune/

 

This, just like everything else I find, is so clouded by the author's attempt to use her for some type of agenda of their own. They have a story they want to tell, then find the examples in her life that will tell the AUTHOR's story, not Mary's.

[Guest]

Hunter, I prefer the term underprivileged. I find that it does not point fingers but has more of a broad view of the situation some people are faced with and the underlying causes.

 

I cannot profess to know what the situation is like in your family, but in mine, I do not teach my boys that they are superior. I do however teach them not to allow anyone to tell them what they are capable or incapable of. It is not a matter of feeling superior to others. It is a matter of recognizing that as God's creations we have been made in His image and as such are limited only by what is in our mind or what others try to put in our minds. Anyway, everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions. My goal for stepping in was because from the little that I have known about Marva Collins, she strikes me as a person that cared about those kids and I feel her actions and life proved it.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Guest

[Pen]

Have any of you read the book Nurtureshock? It seems to have a lot about things that have been researched as far as what works for children. This discussion particularly makes me think of the Tools of the Mind program as described in Nurtureshock. It is a program that seems to strongly develop Executive Function with amazing results--and did not sound harsh or unpleasant at all. I've been reading about that currently and am wondering how it compares to Marva Collins and the other things you are discussing.

[stripe]

This, just like everything else I find, is so clouded by the author's attempt to use her for some type of agenda of their own. They have a story they want to tell, then find the examples in her life that will tell the AUTHOR's story, not Mary's.

Hmm, interesting point. I am going to see what I can find in print.

 

One thing I found was this: "here she worked with Lucy Craft Laney, adopting many of Laney’s ideas into her own educational philosophy" and also "In addition to basic academics, she also taught practical skills such as laundry and cleaning techniques, broom making, and poultry care. Bethune placed a strong emphasis on values, especially self-respect and confidence, and her students wore uniforms so that there would be no disparity between those with parental support and those without it. "

http://www.nwhm.org/education-resources/biography/biographies/mary-mcleod-bethune/

 

I found this excerpt written by Lucy Craft Laney: http://www.blackpast.org/?q=1899-lucy-craft-laney-burden-educated-colored-woman , and a video about her

http://www.teachersdomain.org/resource/bf10.socst.us.indust.lucylaney/

 

Pen - I read NurtureShock a while back. I should crack it out again. I felt that in some ways Collins was not really urging her kids to think for themselves, but deliberately directing them towards a message of self-sufficiency at every turn.

 

4evercanuks - This discussion has not closed, is still ongoing, and has in no way been a forum merely to criticize Marva Collins, who, I am sure, has received much harsher criticism than Hunter's and my wandering dialogue.

 

Also, I think Hunter and I wonder if it is right (as a philosophical matter) to see that a group of children or an individual child, has been "bettered" through radical means, without wondering if the means of evaluation is a good one. This is not really about Marva Collins, but a general wondering. Are test scores the measure of a child? Is this type of thinking what led to calls to, say, let Elian Gonzales stay in the US, even though his father was in Cuba, because life is supposed to be better in the US? Didn't this come up when Madonna was trying to adopt a boy from Mali whose father was still alive? Does that not put every poor person in the default assumption that they have nothing of value to give, and that being in wealthy surroundings is necessarily better? How does that translate into the educational sphere? Should we talk about lifting people up? When we assume a process of evolution, which was a term you introduced, you imply that there is a continuum, where the poor, black, uneducated person is less evolved than the rich, white, well educated person, and we should attempt to bring the poor black child into the educated white world, and leave his/her world behind. Is this fair? Is this fair to the individual child or to poor blacks? Do poor black people have anything to teach larger white society?

 

I have just started reading Hayy Ibn Yaqsan, as I have read it makes an interesting contrast with Robinson Crusoe, where it is assumed that the "civilized" white man needs to teach the "savage," Friday, everything. That learning is a one way street. That there is one way.

This is not the copy I have, but I found this one: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/hayy.pdf , and an article about it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/mar/22/featuresreviews.guardianreview1

 

I know people who went to school to be taught in another language (not their native language). They learned absolutely nothing about their ethnic group in school at any time. I have seen it with my own eyes. This is in some cases a conscious effort to denigrate them.

Edited April 23, 2012 by stripe

[Hunter]

Have any of you read the book Nurtureshock? It seems to have a lot about things that have been researched as far as what works for children. This discussion particularly makes me think of the Tools of the Mind program as described in Nurtureshock. It is a program that seems to strongly develop Executive Function with amazing results--and did not sound harsh or unpleasant at all. I've been reading about that currently and am wondering how it compares to Marva Collins and the other things you are discussing.

 

Thanks for this link. It is quite interesting. I found their comparisons and questions narrow and the wrong ones in my opinion, but the videos show how much children are affected by WHAT we praise them for. They try and become what they are praised for. This is what I have been talking about. When taken to an extreme, we brainwash a child to only want and pursue what they will be praised for.

 

Also the videos pointed out that we can have an agenda, and end out getting the OPPOSITE of what we wanted, because we don't understand what we are doing. The harder we try, sometimes brings less and less results.

 

I never told my children they were superior to anyone, but they desired to be superior, because I passed on to them the belief that life was a pecking order, and that there were people who were worth more than other people. Of course they wanted to be one of the people who was worth more, and they wanted to be higher on the pecking order scale.

 

underprivileged |ˌəndərˈpriv(ə)lijd|

adjective

(of a person) not enjoying the same standard of living or rights as the majority of people in a society.

 

Marginalized does include a shade of finger pointing, and I mean it to. There are studies about not labeling victims as victims, but...like the above linked videos, some studies are too narrow and ask the wrong questions.

 

Marginalized gets back to a bit of what I was saying earlier, and is area that many whites don't fully comprehend. "Success" isn't always about adapting to the power holding culture, and trying to beat them at their own game. Marginalized has no shade of lower income in the meaning. Underprivileged carries a shade of shame on the victim, instead of the oppressor, and usually means lower income.

 

Abused children often prefer to believe they are bad, and not their abuser, because to believe oneself bad, carries the possibility of having the power to fix oneself. To believe that the abuser who holds the power is bad, is more frightening.

 

To latch onto underprivileged, instead of marginalized, gives a group a feeling of power to break out of their situation. But... I think it fails to take into consideration the full reality of the barriers put in place to purposely hold certain groups down.

 

It all comes down to power, not economics and not even education. In our current society, a strongly language based education, helps insure accumulation of power. I predict that in the future, those that have mastered the language of maths will hold the power. In the past, larger more heavily boned and muscled groups were able to gain power.

 

I'm rambling again. It's so hard for me to hold a thought on this wide subject, and stay focused, and to make a point. UGH! I'm going to stop writing now :-)

[Hunter]

 

One thing I found was this: "here she worked with Lucy Craft Laney, adopting many of Laney’s ideas into her own educational philosophy" and also "In addition to basic academics, she also taught practical skills such as laundry and cleaning techniques, broom making, and poultry care. Bethune placed a strong emphasis on values, especially self-respect and confidence, and her students wore uniforms so that there would be no disparity between those with parental support and those without it. "

http://www.nwhm.org/education-resources/biography/biographies/mary-mcleod-bethune/

 

I found this excerpt written by Lucy Craft Laney: http://www.blackpast.org/?q=1899-lucy-craft-laney-burden-educated-colored-woman , and a video about her

http://www.teachersdomain.org/resource/bf10.socst.us.indust.lucylaney/

 

 

Thank you for this!!!! I found NOTHING on this in the sources I have been reading so far. As I said, I was strongly aware of an agenda in all the sources I have read so far, and that the information included is so filtered, that it is obvious that it is filtered.

[Guest]

stripe, I did not say that your discussion was closed. I was just pointing out that my participation was only on the part that had to do with Marva Collins and I did not want the thread to EVENTUALLY die out (as all threads do at some point) without saying something on her behalf. We all have a right to our opinion and as this is an open forum, I believe that contributing what I wanted to contribute to this discussion is within my rights :).

[Pen]

...

underprivileged |ˌəndərˈpriv(ə)lijd|

...

 

Marginalized ...

 

 

People can be highly privileged and yet marginalized. Take, for example, women (girls) from a wealthy high status family, but who are not held in the same esteem as men (boys). And, indeed, this is still to this day true of women in general in much of the world as compared to men...though, I suppose, less bad than it was some time back in history. I could give other examples also.

 

People can also be relatively underprivileged, yet not marginalized. For example, in some areas the ruling power belongs to a group who would be considered socio-economically underprivileged looking at demographic statistics, and yet they may have the status and power that goes with being part of the elite ruling class. For example, in some places this group is known as the "old timers" -- the descendants of those who came by covered wagon, and whose names are on the streets and towns of an area.

[Guest]

Hunter, you may not have noticed from my blog but I am married to a man of color (at least some color anyway, there is color in his family background). We don't feel marginalized because we don't allow OURSELVES to be marginalized. Also, my best friend (sister sounds more like it) and her whole family are African American. She too lives and teaches her kids to live by higher standards and to not allow others to marginalize her and her family. So, I may know a bit more than you think but will not get into a discussion that I find one sided.

[Pen]

Thanks for this link. It is quite interesting. I found their comparisons and questions narrow and the wrong ones in my opinion, but the videos show how much children are affected by WHAT we praise them for. They try and become what they are praised for. This is what I have been talking about. When taken to an extreme, we brainwash a child to only want and pursue what they will be praised for.

 

What videos? Marva Collins videos or Nurtureshock videos. I didn't know there were Nurtureshock videos if there are.

 

What do you think are the right questions and comparisons? How do we guide a child helpfully toward becoming an adult? What should be praised and exactly how? I struggle with this every day. If I say/do x, what will that do, or if I say/do y, what then? And often one really does not even know, or at least I do not.

 

 

Also the videos pointed out that we can have an agenda, and end out getting the OPPOSITE of what we wanted, because we don't understand what we are doing. The harder we try, sometimes brings less and less results.

 

 

 

So, what should we do? To try to learn from someone else's experience, had you to do things over with your son, what would you do or say? What would you keep of what you did?

[Jonibee]

No one said that, so I don't know what you're talking about. No one said they were "ill adjusted." No one said everything Marva Collins did was bad. At all. The conversation, mostly between Hunter and me, has been much more nuanced and ponderous, much less self-assured than that, and often more about ideas than about Mrs. Collins.

 

We were discussing the various interpretations of success and whether urban, poor black kids have only one path to success, and whether economic independence from the government via the libertarianism is the only or best source for freedom for individuals, and the belief that the individual is solely in control of his/her destiny.

 

We were also discussing what it means to have "a future"? Is there only one way to have a future -- the mainstream white way?

 

There have been times where people have been purposely divorced from their culture, as it was judged by mainstream society to be putting them at a disadvantage, and this was seen as a way to help them. Is there anything of the dangers of this that we should consider when dealing with some of today's children-- how to lift them up without denigrating their culture and background?

 

That being said, I still shudder at all the talk about the German schwa. Hunter, on the other hand, liked that part!

 

We were discussing ALL THAT? Sorry for my input then. I am so not in that sort of social discussion . . . "the mainstream white way?" That sort of offends me. I'm white -- am I mainstream because I don't let my kids pick their nose in public or because I actually give them an education that includes so much more than ipods and x-boxes? Am I mainstream because my kids can actually PASS a test at the end of the chapter? As opposed to just saying to my kid, oh don't worry about it. It doesn't matter anyway.

 

I do not believe that a good education has anything at all to do with divorcing kids from their culture. A "good" education is realizing that education can be had by all -- regardless of your culture, and the acknowledgement that a "good" education is worth having because of the good that it does to a person's own feeling of inner worth -- to realize that you are worth something, no matter what your culture.

 

If an educated person wants to help and does help a great deal of people become educated, I do not think we should judge so harshly about that, and then go on to discuss social policy and the influence of libertarianism, etc., in connection with one person's efforts to help some people.

 

Some people really are called to teach and what are you saying, that she should have dumbed herself down to their level? Being black herself, she should have considered the fact that she would be judged to be teaching "mainstream white material?" I do not think that is fair at all. Do we say then, this is a "white education" and this, here, is for "urban black kids?" How offensive to me!

 

The longer I homeschool and the more I learn myself, the more fascinating it all becomes to me. That some black kid in the slums can learn some beautiful poetry or quote Shakespeare -- this is a bad thing? A white education???!! And you would go so far as to judge the teacher as having bad motives and/or methods and/or not understanding the culture, etc.?!

 

Sheesh. I think I'm in the wrong thread!

[stripe]

The longer I homeschool and the more I learn myself, the more fascinating it all becomes to me. That some black kid in the slums can learn some beautiful poetry or quote Shakespeare -- this is a bad thing? A white education???!! And you would go so far as to judge the teacher as having bad motives and/or methods and/or not understanding the culture, etc.?!

 

 

I didn't say that. At all. Ever. Apparently I'm in the wrong thread. You're the second person to say such things, and I guess anyone who does anything with poor black kids in cities cannot be discussed. We just are supposed to clap. And then go back to the country club for cucumber sandwiches, I guess.

 

Well, I know people who were linguistically and culturally oppressed through their education. They did not attend Mrs Collins' school, so my thoughts were more general. I don't travel in mostly white American circles. So I am looking through a different lens.

 

One issue is whether the only source for evaluation is "results."

 

I'm tired of asking it, but, can we say Van Gogh or Mother Theresa were successful? Why won't anyone respond?

 

The question has been posed by greater minds than mine -- is a classical, eurocentric education best for everyone, everywhere?

[MeganW]

I will say that I LOVED the book! Three of my kids have some issues related to premature birth, and two of those struggle to learn. That book really encouraged me to stay the path. Keep working rigorously at the child's level. It showed me that I didn't have to truly separate teacher and mom - I can be a strict, but loving teacher/mom combo. Loved it, and took a LOT of inspiration away from it.

[Hunter]

We were discussing ALL THAT? Sorry for my input then. I am so not in that sort of social discussion . . . "the mainstream white way?" That sort of offends me. I'm white -- am I mainstream because I don't let my kids pick their nose in public or because I actually give them an education that includes so much more than ipods and x-boxes? Am I mainstream because my kids can actually PASS a test at the end of the chapter? As opposed to just saying to my kid, oh don't worry about it. It doesn't matter anyway.

 

I do not believe that a good education has anything at all to do with divorcing kids from their culture. A "good" education is realizing that education can be had by all -- regardless of your culture, and the acknowledgement that a "good" education is worth having because of the good that it does to a person's own feeling of inner worth -- to realize that you are worth something, no matter what your culture.

 

If an educated person wants to help and does help a great deal of people become educated, I do not think we should judge so harshly about that, and then go on to discuss social policy and the influence of libertarianism, etc., in connection with one person's efforts to help some people.

 

Some people really are called to teach and what are you saying, that she should have dumbed herself down to their level? Being black herself, she should have considered the fact that she would be judged to be teaching "mainstream white material?" I do not think that is fair at all. Do we say then, this is a "white education" and this, here, is for "urban black kids?" How offensive to me!

 

The longer I homeschool and the more I learn myself, the more fascinating it all becomes to me. That some black kid in the slums can learn some beautiful poetry or quote Shakespeare -- this is a bad thing? A white education???!! And you would go so far as to judge the teacher as having bad motives and/or methods and/or not understanding the culture, etc.?!

 

Sheesh. I think I'm in the wrong thread!

 

I think you skimmed this thread instead of reading it. Also I think you don't have a wide enough social experience to even know what we are talking about. To accurately understand what we are saying, you must understand the context it is said in, and it's obvious that you don't.

 

We never said any of the above.