I need help from the Great Hive Mind (MFW/TOG/SL)

[IrresistibleGrace]

OK - so I've been reading 'old' threads about MFW and TOG and I still need some things cleared up for me.

 

Set up: My oldest is 8 and has been doing Saxon 3, SWO C, ETC 3.5 (which is way too easy for her but she likes the busy work), she is finishing FLL this year and is about half way through SOTW 2. She is an advanced reader and loves to read! Science and history have been greatly overlooked this year. Life has been busy and I have focused on language arts and math. My son is 6 and we are wrapping up Kindy with basic reading, writing and math.

 

Problem: I want something different for next year. I am sticking with Saxon and FLL/WWE, they work for us. I need help with science, history, geography, arts. I like what I see of MFW although I don't know too much about it. I think TOG sounds nice but a bit too much for us at this point (price and content wise). I do not know anything about SL except that several people on here use it and like it. I went to the website and it was too confusing for me. I don't understand the 'core' concept. Maybe it was too late at night and I need to try again in the morning when I'm fresh. :001_smile:

 

So, my questions:

What is SL? How does it work and is that what I'm looking for?

 

Could a person use MFW through 8th grade and then switch to TOG?

 

Is MFW sufficient for an advanced reader/advanced learner?

 

 

 

This is a bit rambly, but I want to use TOG. I like the sound of it (I've never actually seen it in person) and I like that it seems to be challenging but I need easy and simple for me and TOG looks hard and overwhelming. I can not do overwhelming right now!

 

One last random but slightly connected thought - there is a part of me that wants to provide a tough, rigorous, "advanced" education for my dc helping them to "push ahead" and "get farther" (whatever those things mean:)). But there is a part of me that wants to take it easy, let them be children, give them a good, solid education and trust that they will reach their full potential and be exactly what God made them to be. They are still little! Can I wait until high school to 'push them'? How do you guys balance these two desires? Maybe that should be a separate thread!

 

FYI- I am leaning heavily toward MFW right now and if that is what dh and I decide on I will have another question about where to start, Adventures or ECC!

[SilverMoon]

Could a person use MFW through 8th grade and then switch to TOG? Yes.

Is MFW sufficient for an advanced reader/advanced learner? Not unless you're using it "ahead" of the grade levels they put on it, IMO. You can read our experience in post 17 of this thread. My first and third grader did just fine with a set marketed as grades 4-8 this year (and never did the "required" ECC). I started collecting the "younger sibling" supplements, but quickly found we didn't need them.

 

I haven't used Sonlight, but from what I gather from a Sonlight loyal girlfriend, it's history, literature, readers, and such, all spread out in a super convenient daily schedule.

[Ohmomjacquie]

Mfw lets you pick books for independent reading. So whatever level sje ois at you can get library books to match it. It is a gentler approach from what I've heard. You can further investigate things they are interested in too though. As far s where to start? It depends. You could do adventures amd first next year and then just start them in the 5 year cycle with ecc the next year. Or do ecc with coldest next year and let the younger join the cycle the next year with ctg. Adventures is meant for second or third so if your oldest is advanced you may want to go to ecc next year.

[jamajo]

Here is my experience:

 

I purchased one unit of TOG middle ages last school year to "try" it out w/o purchasing the whole year. It was way too much planning for me and I'm not a fan of purchasing all the readers you need to do a curriculum. I rely on the library for extra books. There was so much to choose from with TOG that it felt segmented to me. I ended sticking with SOTW 2 which was one of their many choices. This way I could stop the segmentation and that felt more comprehensive to me. I finished my middle ages year with SOTW 2 and the Activity Book (which lists many resources for extra books) and was pleased with what my kids learned. The hands-on activities sealed the learning.

 

This year I've been doing MFW Ex-1850. Another curriculum where you pull from many resources but its a handful of the same resources not a list of many (TOG). To keep continuity I usually end up using the same one or two resources from week to week (SOTW, Exploring American History) but the hands on activities built into the curriculum add interest to reinforce reading.

 

I will be using MFW ECC next year with my younger kids (adding in outside extras). My high schooler uses MFW WHL which we love as well. As much as I like MFW I don't like the looks of the last two years of MFW high school so we will be using other resources.

 

Hope my experience is a little helpful.

[IrresistibleGrace]

Thanks for the help so far guys! I do like things neat and organized. I don't do well with chaos and I'm afraid TOG will be too "segmented" for me (as jamajo put it).

 

I was thinking if I use MFW, we can work 'above' grade level for now and I can see that it may not be 'enough' for my highschoolers, but that is far, far away!

 

Am I the only one that would have a hard time letting a younger sibling jump in the cycle at, say, Rome to the Reformation not having done Creation to Greeks yet? I will feel the need to advance the older sibling on and go back to the "beginning" with the younger. Is that doable?

 

Jacquie - I noticed you are in Ohio. We will be moving to Landen, just outside of the Cincinnati area, soon!

[karensk]

OK - so I've been reading 'old' threads about MFW and TOG and I still need some things cleared up for me.

 

Set up: My oldest is 8 and has been doing Saxon 3, SWO C, ETC 3.5 (which is way too easy for her but she likes the busy work), she is finishing FLL this year and is about half way through SOTW 2. She is an advanced reader and loves to read! Science and history have been greatly overlooked this year. Life has been busy and I have focused on language arts and math. My son is 6 and we are wrapping up Kindy with basic reading, writing and math.

 

Problem: I want something different for next year. I am sticking with Saxon and FLL/WWE, they work for us. I need help with science, history, geography, arts. I like what I see of MFW although I don't know too much about it. I think TOG sounds nice but a bit too much for us at this point (price and content wise). I do not know anything about SL except that several people on here use it and like it. I went to the website and it was too confusing for me. I don't understand the 'core' concept. Maybe it was too late at night and I need to try again in the morning when I'm fresh. :001_smile:

 

So, my questions:

What is SL? How does it work and is that what I'm looking for?

 

Could a person use MFW through 8th grade and then switch to TOG?

 

Is MFW sufficient for an advanced reader/advanced learner?

 

This is a bit rambly, but I want to use TOG. I like the sound of it (I've never actually seen it in person) and I like that it seems to be challenging but I need easy and simple for me and TOG looks hard and overwhelming. I can not do overwhelming right now!

 

One last random but slightly connected thought - there is a part of me that wants to provide a tough, rigorous, "advanced" education for my dc helping them to "push ahead" and "get farther" (whatever those things mean:)). But there is a part of me that wants to take it easy, let them be children, give them a good, solid education and trust that they will reach their full potential and be exactly what God made them to be. They are still little! Can I wait until high school to 'push them'? How do you guys balance these two desires? Maybe that should be a separate thread!

 

FYI- I am leaning heavily toward MFW right now and if that is what dh and I decide on I will have another question about where to start, Adventures or ECC!

 

...and I work at a store that sells used curricula, which includes all three (plus, I have friends who have enjoyed using both MFW and SL for a number of years).

 

Based on the stated grade levels, SL generally has the most challenging, higher level books for your kids' ages. Plus, SL will most likely have your kids (elementary-aged) reading a larger quantity than either MFW or TOG.

 

At the high school level, TOG and SL might be more even in terms of challenging reading, perhaps with SL containing more modern works of lit and TOG more ancient/medieval works (but both at a high level). At the high school level, TOG will be more of a classical approach compared to SL, which follows a more standard scope and sequence.

 

Another thing for your kids' grade levels:

MFW and SL will both be pretty ready to use; TOG will require more prep time, where you'll need to decide which books and activities to use/not use, whereas you'll do pretty much all of what MFW and SL tell you to do.

 

MFW v. SL (for your grade levels):

- MFW will have more hands-on activities to go with the history; SL's history will be done primarily through read-alouds, discussion, and independent reading.

- Both will have hands-on stuff for science.

- SL will have considerably more read-alouds and a lot more scheduled independent reading. MFW has supplementary books listed in the curriculum that go in the book basket, but I don't believe these are scheduled out for you, day-by-day, as is the case with Sonlight.

 

Looking at the lit in the SL kit v. the lit in the MFW kit, it seems that SL has greater quantity and higher level literature selections. If you opted for MFW, you may want to add in some lit selections from the SL catalog.

 

HTH!

[SilverMoon]

Am I the only one that would have a hard time letting a younger sibling jump in the cycle at, say, Rome to the Reformation not having done Creation to Greeks yet? I will feel the need to advance the older sibling on and go back to the "beginning" with the younger. Is that doable?

 

I roll little ones right in with the bigger kids' cycle when they're ready. You'll be amazed at how much year 1 history the little ones pick up from just being around it, listening to the read alouds, and jumping into the projects. If you have them start over they're likely to have a BTDT attitude and be bored. ;)

[IrresistibleGrace]

You'll be amazed at how much year 1 history the little ones pick up from just being around it, listening to the read alouds, and jumping into the projects. If you have them start over they're likely to have a BTDT attitude and be bored. ;)

 

Very good point! I had not thought of that.

[IrresistibleGrace]

Is there a way to explain Sonlight to me? How would I know what 'core' to start with? Maybe I just need to go back and try the website again. :001_smile:

[freesia]

Is there a way to explain Sonlight to me? How would I know what 'core' to start with? Maybe I just need to go back and try the website again. :001_smile:

Think of a Core as a history topic to study, separate from grade level. You can study any era of history at any grade level, right? So, the Cores have books that are geared toward a spread of grades.

 

Within the core you will have Bible, history, read alouds and readers. When the children are in the younger grades there is a choice of readers as young children read at different levels at different ages.

 

So, you could choose Core B for your children and they would all get history, bible and read alouds. Then you would add readers that are right for their level.

 

One of the best places for advice on where to start is the forums. The choosing forum is open to the public.

[IrresistibleGrace]

Think of a Core as a history topic to study, separate from grade level. You can study any era of history at any grade level, right? So, the Cores have books that are geared toward a spread of grades.

 

Within the core you will have Bible, history, read alouds and readers. When the children are in the younger grades there is a choice of readers as young children read at different levels at different ages.

 

So, you could choose Core B for your children and they would all get history, bible and read alouds. Then you would add readers that are right for their level.

 

One of the best places for advice on where to start is the forums. The choosing forum is open to the public.

 

Thank you Anne :)

[SnMomof7]

Anne did a great job of explaining what a core is!

 

I just wanted to share my own waffling experiences between MFW, SL, and TOG. Because we live rurally I need everything 'together' and ready to go, so I would have to buy all the books I needed in advance either way.

 

I spent 100 hours or so figuring out TOG and how it works but still couldn't knuckle through all the decisions - too many decisions for me, and my Y1 U1 never got off the ground :(.

 

SL actually gets done here though because it is open and go.

 

 

One last random but slightly connected thought - there is a part of me that wants to provide a tough, rigorous, "advanced" education for my dc helping them to "push ahead" and "get farther" (whatever those things mean:)). But there is a part of me that wants to take it easy, let them be children, give them a good, solid education and trust that they will reach their full potential and be exactly what God made them to be. They are still little! Can I wait until high school to 'push them'? How do you guys balance these two desires? Maybe that should be a separate thread!

 

 

On this - I thought it might help to be reminded that the single largest indicator of intelligence is vocabulary. And one of the best ways to develop vocabulary is in context - by reading to your children and discussing words as they come up. Though it may not seem academically 'intense' reading aloud to your kids actually IS so good for them, even an 'advanced' education, AND they love it, you can cuddle, and get those warm read aloud fuzzies on the couch at the same time!! :) Have fun!

[Ohmomjacquie]

My ds will be jumping in during rtr and I'm ok with it because they have a supplement for younger grades and he will eventually get to do ecc and ctg.

 

Yep I'm in Ohio, but closer to Cleveland. Cincinnati is a good 3/4 hours from us. Ohio hs laws are pretty simple to follow which is nice.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Ohmomjacquie

[PeterPan]

Have you looked at VP yet? They have both the online, self-paced curriculum (love, love, love!) or the materials for you to teach it yourself. It would be PERFECT for what you're describing. Check out their catalog. It gives you a framework and then you bump up the materials you use to fit the reading level and interest of your dd. It's perfect for an advanced learner like that. For us it has the richness of TOG but the simplicity that fits the age. :)

 

Sometimes when you can't decide, it's because you're not looking at the right options yet. Check out VP. :)

Edited April 10, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[besroma]

I roll little ones right in with the bigger kids' cycle when they're ready. You'll be amazed at how much year 1 history the little ones pick up from just being around it, listening to the read alouds, and jumping into the projects.

 

 

This is what we do with TOG, which we love. I can get bogged down in details, which can be detrimental in TOG. But, we have found a rhythm that really works for us. I have used it with DS17, DD10, DS8, and DS6. You can make it as light or as rigorous as you choose.

 

It is a big investment if you purchase the books, but you only *need* to purchase the required books that are used for multiple weeks. (You could check them out at the library, but it is so much easier to have them at home).

 

I like that I will be using the dialectic books and rhetoric books purchased for DS17 with the younger ones in a few years. I also like that the LG and UG books will be used again in four years by DD4 and DD1.

 

I use some of the higher level books for read alouds to the younger children who are interested. They read the books at their level on their own. It works great for us!

[IrresistibleGrace]

These replies are helping so much! Thank you :)

 

I spent some time at the Sonlight website last night and I have a little better idea of how it works.

 

You make a very good point Jennifer re: read alouds. I agree that reading to your children is important. I have always done it. I am struggling with thinking of that time as "school" or education, but I can see how it works and the more I ponder on it and research that method, the more comfortable I get with it. I began our homeschool journey 3 years ago thinking that I was supposed to replicate public school at home. It is a long, slow process getting me away from that but I'm coming around. :001_smile: I can tell that (a literature based, CM style) is what I desire, but I am having a hard time getting my OCD, box-checking, workbook loving mind to figure out how it works. {And I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with TOG. Thank you for sharing, it helps. I am not a good decision maker so I think I would really struggle with it.}

 

Jacquie - from what I have heard about OH hs requirements, it looks easy enough though it is more than I have had to do here in TN.

 

Elizabeth - I have not looked into VP yet, but I suppose I should. Thank you for throwing another option in the pot! ;) No, I really do thank you for the suggestion. I recognize your "name" from other posts on here and I value your opinion. I will check it out.

[IrresistibleGrace]

This is what we do with TOG, which we love. I can get bogged down in details, which can be detrimental in TOG. But, we have found a rhythm that really works for us. I have used it with DS17, DD10, DS8, and DS6. You can make it as light or as rigorous as you choose.

 

It is a big investment if you purchase the books, but you only *need* to purchase the required books that are used for multiple weeks. (You could check them out at the library, but it is so much easier to have them at home).

 

I like that I will be using the dialectic books and rhetoric books purchased for DS17 with the younger ones in a few years. I also like that the LG and UG books will be used again in four years by DD4 and DD1.

 

I use some of the higher level books for read alouds to the younger children who are interested. They read the books at their level on their own. It works great for us!

 

I,too, love the fact that most of the books I will be purchasing (from any of these options) will be used over and over again. I am still early on in this hs journey and money on nonconsumables is money well spent!

[cbollin]

So, my questions:

 

Could a person use MFW through 8th grade and then switch to TOG?

 

Is MFW sufficient for an advanced reader/advanced learner?

 

FYI- I am leaning heavily toward MFW right now and if that is what dh and I decide on I will have another question about where to start, Adventures or ECC!

 

You'd start in ECC with the age of your oldest and where she is.

 

Yes, you could switch to TOG by high school. I choose not to. I've done MFW since 2003. Oldest is in 10th grade and is still a very advanced learner. oops.. we never did latin as a full program.. LOL

 

My story with my oldest who was always advanced in reading? She loves MFW and we have used it with her since 2003. She's my super genius first born homeschooled child. MFW does not hold her back at all.

 

It has been excellent through all stages of learning. I was just re-reading the WTM guidelines on history in logic... I thought.. alright! That's what we did in MFW. We may not have called it "outlining" in all of our narration/review questions and paragraph writing. But outlining is what we did. Then it was obvious it was outlining via WTM in 1850MOD when we did that. The research projects in the other years was excellent. My average learner 7th grader is doing state history research and outlining all of that.

 

The books were enjoyable. We had a spine, plus encyclopedia, plus timeline, plus notebooking and outlining and reading as many books on topics as we wanted.

 

I loved that to me MFW feels like the WTM logic stage all planned out for me. I'm seeing a lot of academic and spiritual fruit in my children,especially with my oldest advanced learner. I love that it gave us time to peruse a well rounded education with not just 3R's and history, but music history, art (fine arts), and time to learn handicrafts. Time and energy left over to have a life outside of the house.

 

 

-crystal

[cbollin]

Am I the only one that would have a hard time letting a younger sibling jump in the cycle at, say, Rome to the Reformation not having done Creation to Greeks yet? I will feel the need to advance the older sibling on and go back to the "beginning" with the younger. Is that doable?!

 

It worked out for us. The interesting thing is that if one does MFW 1st grade with first grade while older sib is in CTG, then they are getting "ctg history" on their language arts level. Then you invite the younger sib to join in the fun, food, feasts, crafts, etc. Plenty of time and energy to give each child what they need in skill courses (such as language arts and math) without stressing out about "content courses" like science and history.

 

The books in CTG and RTR are multiple age stuff... So thinking back to the most recent time I did CTG was when oldest was 8th grade and (average learner) was 5th. Oldest did the advanced assignments in Streams of Civilization - even the ones that MFW says in the manual introduction (monthly reports from chapter topics). MIddle gal, didn't do all of that.... (now as 7th grader she's developmental into logic stage... she took longer)

 

but there was a variety of books in the package of CTG to use... Both 8th and 5th grader enjoyed The Children's Homer on audio.

 

I think folding them in around 2nd grade has worked. In my case, it was easier because middle gal was in 2nd grade when oldest was in EX1850.

 

and.. in terms of high school prep? MFW is fine. Another forum i"m on one person was saying that her children weren't as prepared as my child was on writing to be able to start week 1 of AHL with argumentative essay instruction.

 

eh?

 

want to read my oldest daughter's thoughts on doing CTG in 8th and then AHL in 9th?

here.. she wrote this in a quick time setting with just some edits for posting

http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12394&p=84905p84905

 

her test scores in high school stuff is fine.. She's able to converse intelligently with friends of hers who are in IB programs and AP programs. Sometimes she knows more on a topic than they do. Sometimes she learns something new. She's able to be on student leadership at church and do missions.

 

just been my long term experience. it's working over here. I hope that God shows you HIS path. It might be other stuff than I use. But same God! yes?

 

-crystal

[IrresistibleGrace]

It worked out for us. I hope that God shows you HIS path. It might be other stuff than I use. But same God! yes?

 

-crystal

 

Thank you so much for this Crystal! I agree 100% and I have been asking the Lord to make it clear which program I should use (or if it's something totally different than what I'm looking at right now!). I said it earler, but I while I "worry" about giving them the "best education", all I really want is for each child to reach their full potential and be what God made them to be.

[walkermamaof4]

You've gotten some excellent replies! I love this forum!

 

We've used VP year one, SL cores preK-4, MFW 1850-Modern, but never TOG. With SL, I missed having the arts (hymns, poetry, art) as well as crafts scheduled for me. It is excellent lit but lots of it. With VP, I really disliked that the book suggestions (at least when we did it) were not listed by age and some were way over my kids' heads, way too much too soon. With MFW (we are using it currently) we aren't loving the book selections as much as we did with SL and the hymn choices were blah imo, there isn't poetry memorization or crafts scheduled. It is ok. I like using SL but using a core with my kids at the older age of the age range. Next year we are going to try HOD. I think it seems to provide more of what I missed in each of these other choices, but uses many of the SL selections. Each year I have had my kids also read all of the lit from a full SL core in addition to whatever we are doing, so this year they are reading SL core 4 in addition to all of us doing MFW Modern Times. It is going well. They are loving those SL books. But I don't love that SL isn't exactly on a 4 year history cycle.

 

HTH!

[PeterPan]

If the op gets the VP catalog, she can look at the books for each year of the history and there will be designations on the level (-, on, or +). Also, the new self-paced courses break the reading recommendations out into two levels, lower and upper, making it easy to figure out what to use. But the best part for the op is the *flexibility* of op. I was able to use age-appropriate methodology but had options right at my fingertips to take the reading level up to fit my dc. The op said her dd is a stronger reader, as was mine, and that's one of the reasons VP worked out particularly well for us, because of that flexibility.

 

All that info is in the catalog. We also used TQ (TruthQuest) for more booklists.

[IrresistibleGrace]

You've gotten some excellent replies! I love this forum!

 

We've used VP year one, SL cores preK-4, MFW 1850-Modern, but never TOG. With SL, I missed having the arts (hymns, poetry, art) as well as crafts scheduled for me. It is excellent lit but lots of it. With VP, I really disliked that the book suggestions (at least when we did it) were not listed by age and some were way over my kids' heads, way too much too soon. With MFW (we are using it currently) we aren't loving the book selections as much as we did with SL and the hymn choices were blah imo, there isn't poetry memorization or crafts scheduled. It is ok. I like using SL but using a core with my kids at the older age of the age range. Next year we are going to try HOD. I think it seems to provide more of what I missed in each of these other choices, but uses many of the SL selections. Each year I have had my kids also read all of the lit from a full SL core in addition to whatever we are doing, so this year they are reading SL core 4 in addition to all of us doing MFW Modern Times. It is going well. They are loving those SL books. But I don't love that SL isn't exactly on a 4 year history cycle.

 

HTH!

 

Thank you! Yes that does help! I have been thinking if I go with MFW I could supplement with more readers, maybe from SL. :001_smile:

[Mommy22alyns]

Thank you! Yes that does help! I have been thinking if I go with MFW I could supplement with more readers, maybe from SL. :001_smile:

 

 

This is what I have done. We've done extra read-alouds and I've put SL books in the book basket. Very easy to do.

 

SL seemed too light and insubstantial to me. The girls wanted activities.

 

TOG confuses me every time I look at it. :confused:

 

MFW has a good variety, nice activities, and great books. The girls and I love it. :)

[Hedgehogs4]

 

This is a bit rambly, but I want to use TOG. I like the sound of it (I've never actually seen it in person) and I like that it seems to be challenging but I need easy and simple for me and TOG looks hard and overwhelming. I can not do overwhelming right now!

 

 

TOG is not hard and overwhelming at the UG level. It's very doable, and in fact, the UG level is a great time to get the hang of it, since there is something of a learning curve. One only has to buy the year plan once, then you have it. With Digital Edition you get constant updates, it's never out-of-date.