LDS General Conference Discussion Thread

[Xuzi]

MamaSheep,

 

Thanks for sharing the Parable of the Homemade Shirt. That is a perfect explanation of why the ideal family and way of life is upheld in the gospel even when the majority of us don't currently fit into that ideal. Even though that parable is about families, aren't we all commanded by God to be perfect individuals? I love how the gospel of Jesus Christ expects and encourages us to be better and to strive for the ideal.

 

And provides us with the means to do it. The "pattern" and the aid and guidance of the Holy Spirit. :001_smile:

[MamaSheep]

Ok Bassoonaroo...appointments over, school finished, dishes done, dinner served (darn it, now more dishes are dirty), and now it's my "night off" to do whatsoever my little heart desires without interruption by spouse and children. Whew! So now I can focus on our conversation and take time to go look for stuff. I think for starters I'm going to put in links to my previous comments, just because I'm likely to refer to something I said before, and this should save some leg-work trying to find it again if you (or someone else following this) want to refer back to it. I'll give the post number on this thread, and just the first few words to make them easier to identify.

 

56 - I can understand your confusion...

60 - Ok...so...continuing....

61 - Something else that happens on the sorts of web sites you're referring to is...

79 - Yeah...we don't actually spend all that much time talking....

80 - So I was looking again at your list of quotes...

112 - Yes, as I said before, we don't really spend...

 

(Also, this is likely to be long, so be forewarned that this is probably going to be another multi-post response. Sorry. Maybe someday I'll learn to explain things more concisely)

 

MamaSheep,

 

Wow the lds.org site is huge and I couldn't find a thing in it about non-LDS salvation or about leaders saying that those outside of LDS could be saved. I found lots on "plan of salvation" and "Mom, are we Christian?" but could not find quotes of leaders saying "those outside LDS can receive salvation" or similar. I guess I don't know the right LDS terms to use in the search. This site is very nice looking and appears to not contain any contraversial quotes which are all over the WWW (ie. not just in one site by a disgruntled exLDS).

 

Okay, on to mormon.org. It's equally beautiful with wonderful artwork and photography. However, nowhere could I find any quotes by LDS leaders saying that salvation is available to those outside LDS church. In fact, this site seems even more sanitized than the lds.org site. In its biography of J Smith, there is nothing about his use of seer-stones or polygamy.

 

So, while I am enjoying the beautiful artwork and photographs and quotes from LDS members, I am not finding quotes of LDS leaders contradicting the quotes (easily found, I might add) that say that the Christian church is NOT of satan and that the LDS does NOT have exclusive claims on salvation. Perhaps it's buried deep on those two sites. Since you know the sites, could you give me specific links -- my half hour of searching this AM has turned up ... well, no answers...

 

I do appreciate how you are persevering with me as I try to reconcile what I read on this thread and what I've read online about your leader's quotes and your holy book passages that seem different than what you say... I'm just trying to put it all together. And it's not quite going yet.

 

 

Yes, LDS.org is a very big site. It has all of our books of scripture in their entirety, all the lesson manuals used for teaching in the church, and leadership training materials, 40 years or so worth of church magazines, including the issues in which conference talks are published twice a year after each conference, and audio and video files for a lot of it. Not to mention reference works and supplementary materials. And lots of other things besides. It's a lot to wade through. Which is actually one reason for Mormons.org. That one is intended to present our central, foundational, basic beliefs organized so that people who want to know more about us can easily locate the most relevant stuff. Seer stones and polygamy are not considered central issues in the church. Seer stones are...how to explain...a mystery, kind of along the lines of...say...Baalam's talking ass (see Numbers 22:30). It's a bit strange, but you kind of go, "huh," and move on, because it's not really the point of the whole thing. Polygamy is of historical interest, kind of like Old Testament polygamy, only more recent, but it hasn't been practiced in the church in a century or so, and it's not a central tenet. Even when it was still practiced, it was by a minority and was not considered vital to salvation. It's a historical distinctive of the church, but it's not a central teaching.

 

Both of the sites are published with the intent of facilitating the teaching of the gospel, as we understand it, not to pick a bone with someone else or to feed controversy.

 

Yes, there are a number of sites on the web by groups and individuals hostile to the LDS church, not just one site by a disgruntled ex-LDS person (though there are certainly some of those too). Actually, there are whole "ministries" dedicated to tearing down the LDS church. Generally speaking, the church's attitude toward them tends to be "don't feed the trolls"--although, they don't put it that way, of course. They put it more along the lines of this conference talk by Marvin J. Ashton from 1982. But generally, the church carries on teaching the central doctrines and not fussing over something a church leader might or might not have said in one speech a hundred years ago that is not now, and never was, church doctrine. I think one of the reasons you're having a hard time putting the picture together is that the church web sites focus on ideas that are solidly established as church doctrine, and on building up God's kingdom, and the critical web sites tend to focus on trying to tear down the church by fair means or foul, and seem to take a special delight in trying to pass off out of context snippets that are not now, and never were church doctrine (and sometimes taken wildly out of context, like that one I posted earlier) as the "real" face of Mormonism, or whatever so as to scare people. I've looked at a number of them, as well as publications by some of the same group. A lot of the information is recycled, and I spent some time a few years back checking sources and whatnot, and frankly, I find them deceptive and dishonest. I think that's something about which you will have to come to your own conclusions after you've done your own research.

 

As for the specific quotes from early church leaders, did they say those things? Possibly. Probably. I'm sure they were angry about some of the treatment the LDS people were experiencing at the hands of the "Christians" around them, and that came out in their speeches. But keep in mind that just because a church leader says something, that doesn't make it a "doctrine of the church". I found several sites with lists similar to the one you posted (most seem to use the same 8 or 12 out of context quotes), and most of those do come from the Journal of Discourses, which I mentioned earlier has never been considered an authoritative source of doctrine for the church, just an interesting set of historical documents. Some of the web sites seem to be trying to imply that references like "JOD 5:72" (I just picked those numbers randomly, I have no idea what's written there) represent chapter and verse numbers like in our scriptures, but the JOD isn't scripture, and never was, and the "5:27" of it isn't chapter and verse, it's a volume and page number. There are no chapters and verses in JOD. We don't refer to it much. (I don't have a set of the 26 volumes of the JOD myself, but I saw that the library here has them if you want me to look anything up, just don't overwhelm me...lol). Just so you know what you're looking at when you see those. It strikes me that if they really wanted to tell people what we "really" believe, they'd use sources we actually consider authoritative (and...y'know...represent our beliefs accurately). But again, you kinda have to do your own research and draw your own conclusions on stuff like that.

 

Ok...I'm splitting this thing here, and starting another post to continue...

Edited April 5, 2012 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

Continuing...

 

As I've mentioned, we don't tend to pick out certain people or groups and state categorically that this one is, or can be saved, and that one isn't, or can't be, so I'm not surprised it's hard to find quotes to that effect. It's just not how we think or speak about the issue. We also don't tend to threaten people with ****ation. We like to focus on how to get closer to God, not how to burn in hell.

 

You're more likely to find discussions of what salvation means (in all its iterations and degrees), and how one (anyone) goes about obtaining it. In general, we consider salvation to be available in all of its forms and degrees to anyone, living or dead, who is willing to meet God's criteria for that form or degree of salvation. The rules are the same for everyone; as Peter pointed out, "God is not a respecter of persons" (see Acts 10:34).

 

In our book of scripture, "Doctrine and Covenants" (D&C), we are told, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130:20-21)

 

Salvation isn't a random or subjective thing. It operates according to divinely established laws, and it's the same for everyone, just like the law of gravity is the same for everyone. There's not one set of rules for Mormons, and another set of rules for everyone else. If a Mormon can be saved, so can a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Buddhist. But again, the same rules apply to everyone.

 

Remember that we don't believe salvation to be a black/white, one-size, either/or deal. Our more nuanced concept of salvation includes salvation from a number of different things (hell, sin, physical death, spiritual death), and can be experienced to different degrees. (see my earlier post for more info). And the rules about who qualifies for what are as nuanced as the rewards for following them.

 

For example, one kind of salvation, salvation from physical death, is a free gift from Christ to every member of the human race. Everyone will be resurrected.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15); " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)] That would certainly include Christians of other faiths, because it includes everyone. It even includes people who will ultimately be consigned to outer darkness to live with Satan--they'd experience salvation from physical death, but not salvation from hell.

 

But salvation from other things, and in greater degrees, has other requirements besides just being born. Christians of other faiths would meet some of them, like faith in Jesus Christ. But they don't meet others. So they would qualify for some degree of salvation, but not the highest.

 

(to be continued)

[MamaSheep]

...continuing...last one. At least for now. :)

 

We do believe that for the higher degrees of salvation God requires people not only to "believe" in Christ, but also to enter into a covenant relationship with Him through baptism--to become an "official" citizen of God's kingdom, so to speak, and then to honor that covenant by sincerely striving to live according to the laws of the kingdom. (If you break the covenant, you lose the benefits of the covenant. Of course, we all mess up at times, but if we sincerely repent and trust in Christ, we are forgiven because of His atonement, and it is as if there was no breach.) We also believe there are other covenants, in addition to the covenant made through baptism, through which a person can, if he or she desires to do so, enter into an even deeper relationship with deity. Marriage is one of these, but it can only be enjoyed by a husband and wife together, as equal partners in a loving marital relationship. We believe such a marriage lasts into eternity, and is one of the joys of salvation in the highest degree of glory.

 

The thing is, though, we believe that such covenants must be entered into properly, and under legitimate divine authority, in order to be valid.

 

Let me illustrate with an analogy. A justice of the peace has authority from the US government to marry people, and the marriages they perform are valid anywhere the US government has jurisdiction because the justice of the peace is an officially recognized agent of the government, with authority from the state to perform marriages. Keep in mind that not just anyone affiliated in any random way with the government can perform marriages, just those who are specifically licensed to do so. So just being, say, a postmaster, or an immigration official would not be sufficient authorization to perform marriages. Just LIKING the US government, and believing in the principles laid out in the Constitution is also not enough to provide authority to perform marriages that would be recognized by the government. You have to have been given authority in the legally required manner before marriages you perform are legally valid and recognized by the government. Make sense?

 

Basically, we believe the same thing is true of covenants in the kingdom of God. In order for a marriage (or baptism, or other formal covenant) to be valid, it has to be performed by someone who is legitimately authorized by God to act in that capacity. Not everyone who is merely affiliated with God (such as a legitimately baptized believer) is automatically qualified as an authorized agent of God. And loving God and believing in the Bible isn't enough to qualify someone either.

 

Consider the following passages from the Bible:

 

Matthew 16:19 - And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Hebrews 5:4 - And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

 

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

Acts 8:18-20 - And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

 

The power and authority from God to "bind" on earth and have that binding recognized in heaven (or the "fruit remain") is something that is "given" by Christ as He chooses. We can't buy it, and we can't take it on ourselves. Just wanting it, or believing in it is not enough. A person would have to be "called of God, as was Aaron." God called Aaron by revelation to Moses, who then ordained Aaron. Aaron didn't decide to go to divinity school, or apply for a job.

 

So here's the thing. We believe that this power and authority was present in the early Christian church. BUT we also believe that after a time the teachings were corrupted and the power and authority were not passed on properly (which is a whole other topic), and that none of the modern Christian denominations that are branches off that "tree" have legitimate divine authority to perform the ordinances that bind the covenants necessary to the highest degree of salvation. Instead, we believe that God directly "restored" the church established by Christ, including the power and authority to act as legitimate agents of God, and that this "restoration" of the Christian church in its original, uncorrupted form, is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This being the case, we do believe that in order to receive the highest form of salvation, you have to enter into covenants that can only be legitimately formed by authority from God that is only available in the LDS church, just as that power and authority was only available in the original Christian church. Simon didn't have it just because he wanted to.

 

However, that said, we also believe that at some point EVERYONE will have the chance to accept or reject these ordinances--not just LDS people.

 

So to get back to your original question, I don't think you're likely to find an oversimplified statement like, "those outside the LDS church can receive salvation". But that doesn't mean it's not part of our beliefs. It just means it's so oversimplified that it's not something we're likely to say, as such. In our beliefs, ALL non-LDS people receive the free gift of salvation from physical death. Most non-LDS people receive salvation from outer darkness (the permanent "hell"), but some of these might still have to pass through the temporary "hell" of spirit prison and suffer for their own sins. Other non-LDS people will receive salvation from the hell of spirit prison, and will receive of the glory of God, but not dwell in His presence. Still other non-LDS people who didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's gospel during their mortal life will do so in the Spirit world, and will receive the ordinances and covenants by proxy, and will receive the highest degree of salvation. (I should also mention that LDS people may also fall into all of these categories. Just being a member of the LDS church is not a guarantee of anything.)

 

But as I say, we don't really sit around discussing whether people who are not LDS go to heaven or hell. We tend to focus on our own "stuff", and let God judge who goes where and why. You'd probably find information about what I've said here if you read articles about things like "the plan of happiness", or "salvation", or "degrees of glory", but I kinda doubt you'll find something as simplified as what you're hoping for because it's not something we're likely to say. And yes, there are some things about are beliefs that are somewhat "exclusive". We don't consider ourselves to be "just another Christian denomination", and we don't think that any denomination is just as "right" and "true" as any other denomination. I'm sure someone will be offended by that, and I'm sorry, please know that is not my intention, I'm just trying to explain our beliefs. I'm sure some of you believe things I'd take exception with as well.

 

At any rate, I hope this helps. At least somewhat.

 

[ETA: Forgot to mention, if you're looking for web sites by LDS people who do try to respond to some of the mud-slinging, some of those other non-official, not affiliated with or endorsed by the church sites I mentioned before talk about some of this stuff more. http://www.fair-lds.com is one, though I don't always appreciate their "tone". I like jefflindsay.com better. They're both put together by LDS church members and the information is pretty reliable--but none of it is an "official position" taken by the church, it's these guys's personal take on it. But they often have spent time looking up quotes for quote wars of the sort that I just don't like to indulge in. FARMS Review of Books also has some informative reviews on books written about the church from an opposing point of view. That won't necessarily help with web sites, but sometimes you can put a quote you're concerned about in the search and it'll come up with a book review about a book that used the same quote, and has a discussion of it from an LDS perspective in the review.]

Edited April 5, 2012 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

And provides us with the means to do it. The "pattern" and the aid and guidance of the Holy Spirit. :001_smile:

 

And the atonement! (almost goes without saying, I know) And a good thing too, because I don't know about you, but I sometimes slip with the scissors...

Edited April 5, 2012 by MamaSheep

[garddwr]

I hope you all can stand one more post in the gender-stereotype conversation--I'm up in the middle of the night with a bout of insomnia (seems to be my bane this pregnancy) and the following came to mind:

 

Wanted: women who can handle mobs, malaria, dangers and deserts. Must be willing to travel long distances on foot, give birth in a covered wagon, and establish a new home in the wilderness every few years. Ability to make green jello salad and cute Christmas crafts entirely optional, but skills in sewing, doctoring, plowing, cabin building, and negotiating with native tribes may be necessary. Must be able to single-handedly raise children and manage the family farm or business while husband is serving multiple missions overseas. Determination and reliance on faith and prayer will be critical. Only serious candidates need apply.

 

What do you think, ladies--are we real Mormon women?

 

ETA: I turned on the Sunday Afternoon session of conference after I wrote this and fell asleep somewhere in the middle of Elder Halek's remarks. I've noticed in that past that if I lie down during conference (especially in the afternoon) I tend to fall asleep. Wasn't sure the soporific effect would work as well in the middle of the night, but apparently it can. I think I have a new insomnia remedy!

 

Oh, and Veritaserum, I think you would make a GREAT pioneer woman! This church of all churches certainly has room for such types.

Edited April 5, 2012 by thegardener

[Xuzi]

And the atonement! (almost goes without saying, I know) And a good thing too, because I don't know about you, but I sometimes slip with the scissors...

 

*D'oi* Don't I feel a bit sheepish ( ;) ) for forgetting to mention that one! The whole pattern and gift of the Holy Spirit are moot without it. Glory be to God! :)

[Xuzi]

I hope you all can stand one more post in the gender-stereotype conversation--I'm up in the middle of the night with a bout of insomnia (seems to be my bane this pregnancy) and the following came to mind:

 

Wanted: women who can handle mobs, malaria, dangers and deserts. Must be willing to travel long distances on foot, give birth in a covered wagon, and establish a new home in the wilderness every few years. Ability to make green jello salad and cute Christmas crafts entirely optional, but skills in sewing, doctoring, plowing, cabin building, and negotiating with native tribes may be necessary. Must be able to single-handedly raise children and manage the family farm or business while husband is serving multiple missions overseas. Determination and reliance on faith and prayer will be critical. Only serious candidates need apply.

 

What do you think, ladies--are we real Mormon women?

 

ETA: I turned on the Sunday Afternoon session of conference after I wrote this and fell asleep somewhere in the middle of Elder Halek's remarks. I've noticed in that past that if I lie down during conference (especially in the afternoon) I tend to fall asleep. Wasn't sure the soporific effect would work as well in the middle of the night, but apparently it can. I think I have a new insomnia remedy!

 

Oh, and Veritaserum, I think you would make a GREAT pioneer woman! This church of all churches certainly has room for such types.

 

I just recently learned a few months ago that my Great Grandmother (born in the late 1800's) was one of the first Sister missionaries of the church! And she served in the South! Both she and her husband were RM's (returned missionaries) when they married in 1916. Pretty rare back then! She also lost her husband right at the start of the great depression, and ended up raising 6 kids on her own, while running a farm, and even fought City Hall -and WON- when they wanted her farm to build a municipal airport on. (the "compensation" they were offering was FAR from fair) She had some grit!

[MamaSheep]

*D'oi* Don't I feel a bit sheepish ( ;) ) for forgetting to mention that one! The whole pattern and gift of the Holy Spirit are moot without it. Glory be to God! :)

 

Well, but it IS, after all, the central part of the pattern, so it was in there. I was just feeling particularly grateful for it last night. Not saying why...lol.

[MamaSheep]

I hope you all can stand one more post in the gender-stereotype conversation--I'm up in the middle of the night with a bout of insomnia (seems to be my bane this pregnancy) and the following came to mind:

 

Wanted: women who can handle mobs, malaria, dangers and deserts. Must be willing to travel long distances on foot, give birth in a covered wagon, and establish a new home in the wilderness every few years. Ability to make green jello salad and cute Christmas crafts entirely optional, but skills in sewing, doctoring, plowing, cabin building, and negotiating with native tribes may be necessary. Must be able to single-handedly raise children and manage the family farm or business while husband is serving multiple missions overseas. Determination and reliance on faith and prayer will be critical. Only serious candidates need apply.

 

What do you think, ladies--are we real Mormon women?

 

ETA: I turned on the Sunday Afternoon session of conference after I wrote this and fell asleep somewhere in the middle of Elder Halek's remarks. I've noticed in that past that if I lie down during conference (especially in the afternoon) I tend to fall asleep. Wasn't sure the soporific effect would work as well in the middle of the night, but apparently it can. I think I have a new insomnia remedy!

 

Oh, and Veritaserum, I think you would make a GREAT pioneer woman! This church of all churches certainly has room for such types.

 

Now see, that's the Mormon woman stereotype I grew up with. We didn't exactly negotiate with natives, but my mom and dad did collaborate one summer to construct a 1/3 scale tepee for the back yard. It was fairly authentic except for the size and material (it was canvas, not hide, though they did go out in the woods and cut down some lodgepole pines for...um...lodge poles). Actually, Mom had quite an interest in learning early American and native ways of doing things. It was one of her major hobbies. (And in fact, one of the reasons I always wanted to "stay home" when I grew up was that I saw how much freedom she had to choose her own intellectual pursuits.) She made my dad an authentic "mountain man" coat out of a grey wool blanket following a pattern she found somewhere (he wore it every year when he played the donkey in our family Christmas pageant). She carded and spun wool, dyed it with things like bark, lichen, and roots, and knitted it into sweaters and socks (again, mostly for Dad; I suppose she didn't want us to abuse or grow out of something that took that much work to make). And of course there were things like bread made from home-ground wheat, homemade yogurt, venison jerky (which didn't turn out all that great and nobody wanted to eat it). More recently, she has acquired a loom. And just last week she was wandering around my house in slippers made out of leather from a deer my dad shot (don't worry, they always got eaten after he shot them).

 

It was almost like growing up with the pioneers, except with indoor plumbing and electricity...lol.

[DianeW88]

Ladies, can I just say that you all totally rock!!! What a fun RS we would have if we were all in the same ward!! :D

[Xuzi]

I wonder what "stereotypes" we all grew up with (those of us who grew up LDS). :lol:

 

My mom worked. My whole life. She worked. NEVER was a SAHM (although she had a brief stint as a WAHM when she was running a preschool out of our home). And she also never cooked. Or cleaned. "Molly Mormon" she was NOT! :lol: My Dad was the one who did all the cooking and cleaning and handywork around the house. My mom DID sew and crochet, but that was usually applied to either making baby booties, or stuff for her classroom (she taught K and 1st grade). She sewed bean bags for her classroom and book bags for her students who were all the children of migrant workers who were often too poor to buy backpacks.

 

As a kid, I always said I wanted to grow up to be the kind of mom my dad was, because he was the one who had snacks waiting for us after school, and who drove us to our various extra-curricular activities, and took us on trips to the library. (not to say my mom was a horrible mom!)

 

Both of my parents were born and raised LDS. Neither of them fit well into the traditional "stereotype".

[Xuzi]

Ladies, can I just say that you all totally rock!!! What a fun RS we would have if we were all in the same ward!! :D

 

Should we all clasp hands and sing "As Sisters in Zion"?

 

Or would that irk some people? ;) :lol:

[Melinda in VT]

Should we all clasp hands and sing "As Sisters in Zion"?

 

Or would that irk some people? ;) :lol:

 

Thanks. A. Lot.

 

There are many hymns I miss. This is not one of them.

 

(I know, I know. I should stay out of the Mormon threads. :D)

[Amira]

Thanks. A. Lot.

 

There are many hymns I miss. This is not one of them.

 

(I know, I know. I should stay out of the Mormon threads. :D)

 

I don't mind that I haven't heard that song in a very long time. I'm curious though, Melinda, what are a couple you do miss?

[Melinda in VT]

I don't mind that I haven't heard that song in a very long time. I'm curious though, Melinda, what are a couple you do miss?

 

Spirit of God.

 

Praise to the Man. (Not that I can sing it anymore without severe cognitive dissonance, but I miss singing it as a believer.)

 

Come, Come Ye Saints.

 

I Believe in Christ. (I know people say this one sounds like a funeral dirge, but I always liked it.)

 

I Know That My Redeemer Lives.

 

The LDS arrangement of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. I've sung it often in the last 10 years, but the arrangement isn't quite as nice.

 

Honestly, other than telling my family of my disbelief, switching hymnals has been the hardest part of leaving.

 

On the positive side, I got back Come Thou Font of Every Blessing, which was removed from the LDS hymnal when we switched to the new hymnal back in . . . 1980? And Be Thou My Vision, which the Tabernacle Choir sings but which has never been in the hymnal as far as I remember. :D

[Xuzi]

Spirit of God.

 

Praise to the Man. (Not that I can sing it anymore without severe cognitive dissonance, but I miss singing it as a believer.)

 

Come, Come Ye Saints.

 

I Believe in Christ. (I know people say this one sounds like a funeral dirge, but I always liked it.)

 

I Know That My Redeemer Lives.

 

The LDS arrangement of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. I've sung it often in the last 10 years, but the arrangement isn't quite as nice.

 

Honestly, other than telling my family of my disbelief, switching hymnals has been the hardest part of leaving.

 

On the positive side, I got back Come Thou Font of Every Blessing, which was removed from the LDS hymnal when we switched to the new hymnal back in . . . 1980? And Be Thou My Vision, which the Tabernacle Choir sings but which has never been in the hymnal as far as I remember. :D

Have you heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing Mark Wahlberg's arrangement of this song? They sang it during just this past Conference, and it is breath taking! (although I prefer the version with the Tabernacle Orchestra, over the version using the organ)

[MamaSheep]

Have you heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing Mark Wahlberg's arrangement of this song? They sang it during just this past Conference, and it is breath taking! (although I prefer the version with the Tabernacle Orchestra, over the version using the organ)

 

Didn't anyone tell you that you're not allowed to say stuff like that without providing a LINK?

[Xuzi]

Didn't anyone tell you that you're not allowed to say stuff like that without providing a LINK?

 

There's a link in the post. ;)

 

(although this is an older version and also includes handbells. the version I have on CD doesn't)

[MamaSheep]

There's a link in the post. ;)

 

(although this is an older version and also includes handbells. the version I have on CD doesn't)

 

See, that's what I get for not clicking the link. I was assuming you'd linked to the conference performance.

 

That's what I get for assuming. (Speaking of Baalams's talking donkey...;) )

 

Thanks! The orchestra is nice with the choir. I still wish they'd pick up the tempo just a little, though.

Edited April 5, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Amira]

The LDS arrangement of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. I've sung it often in the last 10 years, but the arrangement isn't quite as nice.

 

 

Is the arrangement you sing a faster tempo? I've heard that we sing it really slow.

[MamaSheep]

Hey look everyone! The text is up!

[MamaSheep]

Listening to Elder Oaks's talk this morning I thought it interesting how many little things in what he said relate to things we've talked about on this thread. For example, the centrality of Christ to "the pattern" set by God.

 

 

 

"The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ has been called the 'most transcendent of all events from creation’s dawn to the endless ages of eternity.' That sacrifice is the central message of all the prophets."

 

 

 

"That sacrifice—the Atonement of Jesus Christ—is at the center of the plan of salvation."

 

 

 

"Just as the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is at the center of the plan of salvation, we followers of Christ must make our own sacrifices to prepare for the destiny that plan provides for us."

 

 

 

Also, LDS attitudes toward Christians of other faiths:

 

 

 

"The Christian faith has a history of sacrifice, including the ultimate sacrifice. In the early years of the Christian era, Rome martyred thousands for their faith in Jesus Christ. In later centuries, as doctrinal controversies divided Christians, some groups persecuted and even put to death the members of other groups. Christians killed by other Christians are the most tragic martyrs of the Christian faith.

 

 

 

Many Christians have voluntarily given sacrifices motivated by faith in Christ and the desire to serve Him. Some have chosen to devote their entire adult lives to the service of the Master. This noble group includes those in the religious orders of the Catholic Church and those who have given lifelong service as Christian missionaries in various Protestant faiths. Their examples are challenging and inspiring, but most believers in Christ are neither expected nor able to devote their entire lives to religious service.

 

 

 

For most followers of Christ, our sacrifices involve what we can do on a day-to-day basis in our ordinary personal lives. In that experience I know of no group whose members make more sacrifices than Latter-day Saints. Their sacrifices—your sacrifices, my brothers and sisters—stand in contrast to the familiar worldly quests for personal fulfillment."

 

...

 

"Prior to the rededication of one of our temples, a Christian minister asked President Gordon B. Hinckley why it did not contain any representation of the cross, the most common symbol of the Christian faith. President Hinckley replied that the symbols of our Christian faith are “the lives of our people.†Truly, our lives of service and sacrifice are the most appropriate expressions of our commitment to serve the Master and our fellowmen."

 

 

I've mentioned my parents being with us on their way to the MTC, which naturally made his comments about missionaries more poignant for us this go-'round. I especially liked:

 

 

 

"We are frequently asked, “How do you persuade your young people and your older members to leave their schooling or their retirement to sacrifice in this way?†I have heard many give this explanation: “Knowing what my Savior did for me—His grace in suffering for my sins and in overcoming death so I can live again—I feel privileged to make the small sacrifice I am asked to make in His service. I want to share the understanding He has given me.†How do we persuade such followers of Christ to serve? As a prophet explained, “We [just] ask them.â€

 

 

 

And not that we've been discussing it all that much here, but this part hit my heart today (partly because someone had posted on Facebook about how kids wouldn't have ADHD if their parents didn't feed them so much sugar; judgey judgey!)

 

 

 

 

"Perhaps the most familiar and most important examples of unselfish service and sacrifice are performed in our families. Mothers devote themselves to the bearing and nurturing of their children. Husbands give themselves to supporting their wives and children. The sacrifices involved in the eternally important service to our families are too numerous to mention and too familiar to need mention.

 

 

 

I also see unselfish Latter-day Saints adopting children, including those with special needs, and seeking to provide foster children the hope and opportunities denied them by earlier circumstances. I see you caring for family members and neighbors who suffer from birth defects, mental and physical ailments, and the effects of advancing years. The Lord sees you also, and He has caused His prophets to declare that “as you sacrifice for each other and your children, the Lord will bless you.â€"

 

[Maus]

Pres. Uchtdorf didn't mention planes even once! I loved his "Stop It!" talk. We've become such an enabling, "I'm a victim" society. How wonderful to have someone remind us to take personal responsibility.

 

I thought a lot of the talks, especially Saturday, had a "get back to the basics and do what you are supposed to be doing" feel, but maybe I just got that because it's what I needed to hear right now.

[Melinda in VT]

Is the arrangement you sing a faster tempo? I've heard that we sing it really slow.

 

The LDS arrangement is trillier. lol That's probably not a word. There are places where the LDS hymnal uses eighth notes instead of quarter notes (or sixteenth notes instead of eighth notes, I can't remember) and has these little runs. I like them.

 

But yes, in general, hymn tempo is faster in the other churches I have attended. ;-)

[Melinda in VT]

See, that's what I get for not clicking the link. I was assuming you'd linked to the conference performance.

 

That's what I get for assuming. (Speaking of Baalams's talking donkey...;) )

 

Thanks! The orchestra is nice with the choir. I still wish they'd pick up the tempo just a little, though.

 

The conference link won't play for me, but I listened to the other one. I have heard that arrangement before and like it, but I agree with you about the tempo. Mack Wilberg was directing the Men's Chorus when I was at BYU, and I liked the tempo of their songs.

[Amira]

The LDS arrangement is trillier. lol That's probably not a word. There are places where the LDS hymnal uses eighth notes instead of quarter notes (or sixteenth notes instead of eighth notes, I can't remember) and has these little runs. I like them.

 

But yes, in general, hymn tempo is faster in the other churches I have attended. ;-)

 

I think trillier is a good word. And I wish we'd sing faster. My family always speeds things up significantly when we sing by ourselves.

[MamaSheep]

The conference link won't play for me, but I listened to the other one. I have heard that arrangement before and like it, but I agree with you about the tempo. Mack Wilberg was directing the Men's Chorus when I was at BYU, and I liked the tempo of their songs.

Huh...it's not working for me either now. Maybe whoever put up the text broke the music.

 

I think trillier is a good word. And I wish we'd sing faster. My family always speeds things up significantly when we sing by ourselves.

 

Me too. All of that.

 

Now, congregational singing is something I think we could definitely do better with as a church. Sometimes it's just painful. I went to my aunt's funeral a year or so ago and the whole church was packed with aunts and uncles and cousins (this aunt was my mother's sister, one of eleven kids who all got married and had large families, who now have kids of their own; we weren't all there, but it was still quite a crowd, especially packed in with her friends from her home ward). The singing was awesome. It was like I opened my mouth and this HUGE sound came out, and we sang at an actual enthusiastic tempo. I guess that's what happens when a mom (Grandma) teaches her kids to love to worship with song, and they teach their kids, and they teach their kids...

 

I wish my ward would catch on. I love my ward, they're truly like family. Except, y'know, for the whole singing part...lol. But ya hafta love 'em anyway.

[garddwr]

Now, congregational singing is something I think we could definitely do better with as a church. Sometimes it's just painful. I went to my aunt's funeral a year or so ago and the whole church was packed with aunts and uncles and cousins (this aunt was my mother's sister, one of eleven kids who all got married and had large families, who now have kids of their own; we weren't all there, but it was still quite a crowd, especially packed in with her friends from her home ward). The singing was awesome. It was like I opened my mouth and this HUGE sound came out, and we sang at an actual enthusiastic tempo. I guess that's what happens when a mom (Grandma) teaches her kids to love to worship with song, and they teach their kids, and they teach their kids...

 

I wish my ward would catch on. I love my ward, they're truly like family. Except, y'know, for the whole singing part...lol. But ya hafta love 'em anyway.

 

I once lived in a ward where the singing was awesome. Everyone sang whole-heartedly. Of course, the bishop was an opera singer, which might have had something to do with it...we also had a lot of African members --many from Nigeria, and I think some from Zimbabwe. They tended to be enthusiastic singers. It was a great ward to be part of.

[Butter]

I'm perfectly active (gospel AND church lol) and I have issues with the words of Praise to the Man. Yet I love, love, love singing it because the music rocks (I am of Scottish heritage after all!).

 

There's a lady in our ward who I love who very vocally despises As Sisters in Zion. We love her anyway ;-P I like the song. The music, not necessarily the words.

 

And (ducking and running) I can't stand the MoTab. At all. Toooo slow.

 

I don't really fit the stereotypes even though I've always wanted to be a stay at home mom. See, I'm just too lazy to work full time. It wouldn't make me happy. My brother (also perfectly active) has a blog I love, http://latterdaysnark.blogspot.com/. We're kinda cynical people lol

Edited April 5, 2012 by Butter

[gardenmom5]

Pres. Uchtdorf didn't mention planes even once! .

 

WHAT??? :blink: did anyone check for a pod under his bed? (I had an obligation which precluded much of enjoying conference when it was broadcast)

[Veritaserum]

In high school I had a job entering hymns electronically for a product sold to churches without organs/organists. My favorite hymnbook for both variety and arrangements is Hymns for the Family of God. It's excellent. If I had my way, I would be put in charge of compiling hymns for a new LDS hymnbook. We'd get back "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" and I'd add more chorales as well as a few spirituals. I'd be happiest if we just spent an hour singing good music. That's more of a spiritual experience for me than listening to talks.

 

I can't sing "Praise to the Man," though. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth even though the music is awesome.

[MamaSheep]

I once lived in a ward where the singing was awesome. Everyone sang whole-heartedly. Of course, the bishop was an opera singer, which might have had something to do with it...we also had a lot of African members --many from Nigeria, and I think some from Zimbabwe. They tended to be enthusiastic singers. It was a great ward to be part of.

 

I would so love a ward like that!

 

Pres. Uchtdorf didn't mention planes even once! I loved his "Stop It!" talk. We've become such an enabling, "I'm a victim" society. How wonderful to have someone remind us to take personal responsibility.

 

I thought a lot of the talks, especially Saturday, had a "get back to the basics and do what you are supposed to be doing" feel, but maybe I just got that because it's what I needed to hear right now.

 

WHAT??? :blink: did anyone check for a pod under his bed? (I had an obligation which precluded much of enjoying conference when it was broadcast)

 

LOL! I guess he's adjusting to being an apostle instead of a pilot or something.

 

Some people have been having entirely too much fun with the "stop it" business. This was posted on FB today and totally cracked me up. (You kind of have to be a Mormon and know a little about all these guys for it to really be funny. I apologize to all you friendly lurkers for the inside joke, I just couldn't not share. (How's that for grammar?)

 

[MamaSheep]

Ok y'all. You'uns. Youse guys. And the rest of you too.

 

I'm having a really hard time picking bits to post from Pres. Eyring's talk. I kinda just want to cut and paste the whole thing. If you had to choose one snippet you liked best, what would it be?

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/mountains-to-climb?lang=eng&media=video

[Xuzi]

Elder Kimball! :lol: :lol:

 

And as long as we're sharing inside jokes... ;)

 

TOP TEN WAYS General Authorities Eat Reese's Peanut

Butter Cups

 

Remember how each one speaks in conference as you read through these.

 

 

10. Paul H. Dunn: "I remember back in WWII that I

ate a Reese's Peanut

Butter Cup. Back then, they were big enough to live

on for a week. Being

the only soldier to have survived the battle in my

brigade, I really didn't

know if I could eat it or not, but I remember my

fallen buddy's words as he

died in my arms: "Paul, if you just take one bite at a

time you can tackle

anything." So I took that giant cup and, breaking it

with the bat Babe Ruth

gave me after I struck him out with two outs in the

bottom of the ninth in

the seventh game of the World Series, proceeded to

wolf down the tiny

morsels."

 

 

9. David B. Haight: "Imagine 70 years ago on a rough

road between Idaho

and Logan. There were no Circle K's, no 7- 11's. You

had to bring your

Peanut Butter Cups with you. Ruby and I split one for

the first time in

1937.

 

 

8. Dallin H. Oaks: "The Reese's Peanut Butter Cup

challenges us to

consume. From the beginning there have been three

steps in eating a Reese's

Peanut Butter Cup. First, remove the wrapper. This

is best done quickly,

by turning the cup over, grasping the outer fold and

pulling away from the

bottom. Second..."

 

 

7. Joseph B. Wirthlin: "When I was young I would

sprint to the corner

store, buy a Reese's and run my hand through my hair

before taking it down

in one bite. These days I don't sprint, and I have no

hair, but the peanut

butter cup remains."

 

 

6. Richard G. Scott: "If you have not eaten a

Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, I

plead with you. Eat one now. Enjoy the chocolate,

the peanut butter. Do

not delay. If you have thought, "That's not for me",

I plead with you to

reconsider. Of all foods I treasure, this one was the

first."

 

 

5. M. Russell Ballard: "The time has come when

members of the church need

to reach out to our friends and share a cup, a peanut

butter cup. It is not

enough to raise a chocolate bar, it must now have

peanut butter."

 

 

4. Thomas S. Monson: "I remember I ate my first

Reese's Peanut Butter Cup

when I was a tender lad of eight. My mother came up

to me, and with a

loving twinkle in her eye, asked, 'Tommy, are you

eating a

Reese's?' And I would invariably smile up to her,

'Yes, Yes, I am.''But

Tommy, did you know that Sister Jensen next door

hasn't eaten a Reese's Cup

in years?' My young mind thought upon the plight of

my neighbor. Tears were

shed. Hearts were gladdened. A cup was shared."

 

 

3. Boyd K. Packer: "In all my years, I have always

eaten my Reese's Peanut

Butter Cups the same way - the established way we

have been instructed to

eat them. There is a far greater evil in this world -

those who believe

they can eat their cups in a way unconventional to

the time- honored manner. We must be true and

faithful and eat our Reese's

Peanut Butter Cups in the customary and recognized

approach as it has been

established."

 

 

2. Neal A. Maxwell: "I intentionally initiate the

delicious design of

deglutition of the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup by

nibbling a negligible nit of

the culinary creamy cavalcade. It is exclusively

through small entities

that the great things are fabricated."

 

AND THE #1 WAY

 

1. J. Golden Kimball: "Hell, Heber, I'll eat a

Reese's Peanut Butter Cup

any ****ed way I want!"

 

~~~~~

 

And now I'll be a good girl and go read Pres. Eyring's talk. ;)

[MamaSheep]

Elder Kimball! :lol: :lol:

 

And as long as we're sharing inside jokes... ;)

 

TOP TEN WAYS General Authorities Eat Reese's Peanut

Butter Cups

 

:lol:

[LittleIzumi]

double post monster strikes again!

Edited April 5, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[LittleIzumi]

I'm glad I wasn't drinking as I read the last few posts. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

I like the Sisters in Zion/Army of Helaman medley much more than just Sisters in Zion. I don't even know the entire lyrics to the plain Sisters in Zion. Other favorites are Praise to the Man, The Spirit of God, and The Daydawn is Breaking. (Now I have to go around my house singing The Daydawn is Breaking....) My kids love Love at Home. We sing it a looooooooot. :tongue_smilie:

[MamaSheep]

Ok. I've settled on something. Here we go.

 

 

 

"I cannot promise an end to your adversity in this life. I cannot assure you that your trials will seem to you to be only for a moment. One of the characteristics of trials in life is that they seem to make clocks slow down and then appear almost to stop.

 

 

 

There are reasons for that. Knowing those reasons may not give much comfort, but it can give you a feeling of patience. Those reasons come from this one fact: in Their perfect love for you, Heavenly Father and the Savior want you fitted to be with Them to live in families forever. Only those washed perfectly clean through the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be there.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

If we have faith in Jesus Christ, the hardest as well as the easiest times in life can be a blessing. In all conditions, we can choose the right with the guidance of the Spirit. We have the gospel of Jesus Christ to shape and guide our lives if we choose it. And with prophets revealing to us our place in the plan of salvation, we can live with perfect hope and a feeling of peace. We never need to feel that we are alone or unloved in the Lord’s service because we never are. We can feel the love of God. The Savior has promised angels on our left and our right to bear us up. And He always keeps His word.

 

 

 

I testify that God the Father lives and that His Beloved Son is our Redeemer. The Holy Ghost has confirmed truth in this conference and will again as you seek it, as you listen, and as you later study the messages of the Lord’s authorized servants, who are here. President Thomas S. Monson is the Lord’s prophet to the entire world. The Lord watches over you. God the Father lives. His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, is our Redeemer. His love is unfailing. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

 

 

 

 

To which I can only say "amen", President Eyring. I have certainly felt that peace and hope and guidance, and there have been many angels in my life, seen and unseen, on my right and on my left in the hardest times. And I can honestly, truly say that some of the biggest, scariest, most heart-wrenching times in my life are now times I look back on with an overflow of gratitude for the incomprehensible blessings they have become in my life.

[Xuzi]

There's one line from that talk that popped out at me when I first heard it, and popped out at me when I read it:

 

"That solid basis for a foundation of faith is personal integrity."

 

I've been pondering on it for a while, and have been trying to puzzle out what he means.

 

I went to my favorite unofficial "standard work", the Marion Webster Dictionary ;) and found this definition of integrity:

 

Definition of INTEGRITY

 

1

: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility

2

: an unimpaired condition : soundness

3

: the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

The words at the end of the definitions (incorruptibility, soundness, and completeness) particularly struck me, and I think I'm starting to see what Pres. Eyring meant. Can someone have a strong foundation of faith in Christ if they willfully and unrepentantly make choices contrary to His commandments? Does doing so impair us? Does it cause us to be incomplete and divided? I think it does.

[VeganCupcake]

The conference link won't play for me, but I listened to the other one. I have heard that arrangement before and like it, but I agree with you about the tempo. Mack Wilberg was directing the Men's Chorus when I was at BYU, and I liked the tempo of their songs.

 

My time at BYU was during the Mack Wilberg era, too, so all those arrangements are so wonderfully familiar to me! I love it.

[Melinda in VT]

Elder Kimball! :lol: :lol:

 

And as long as we're sharing inside jokes... ;)

 

TOP TEN WAYS General Authorities Eat Reese's Peanut

Butter Cups

 

Remember how each one speaks in conference as you read through these.

 

 

 

 

:smilielol5:

 

This reminds me of one of my BYU professors who did fantastic impressions of the General Authorities. He was so good that he had actually been invited to be the entertainment at a birthday party held for one of the GAs.

[Xuzi]

Speaking of impressions, here's a pretty awesome one of Pres. Uchtdorf!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP0FpQr4erc

[Amira]

My time at BYU was during the Mack Wilberg era, too, so all those arrangements are so wonderfully familiar to me! I love it.

 

My husband was in Men's Chorus then so I always hear a lot about Mack Wilberg. But there's still more that could be done about the tempo.

[VeganCupcake]

My husband was in Men's Chorus then so I always hear a lot about Mack Wilberg. But there's still more that could be done about the tempo.

 

For sure. I think most hymns sound better when sung faster.

 

I wish I had more to add--our conference watching was punctuated by two impatient, noisy little people, so I will have to catch up with reading the talks. But I'm following along here!

[Live2Ride]

There's one line from that talk that popped out at me when I first heard it, and popped out at me when I read it:

 

"That solid basis for a foundation of faith is personal integrity."

 

I've been pondering on it for a while, and have been trying to puzzle out what he means.

 

I went to my favorite unofficial "standard work", the Marion Webster Dictionary ;) and found this definition of integrity:

 

 

The words at the end of the definitions (incorruptibility, soundness, and completeness) particularly struck me, and I think I'm starting to see what Pres. Eyring meant. Can someone have a strong foundation of faith in Christ if they willfully and unrepentantly make choices contrary to His commandments? Does doing so impair us? Does it cause us to be incomplete and divided? I think it does.

 

:iagree:

[Live2Ride]

In high school I had a job entering hymns electronically for a product sold to churches without organs/organists. My favorite hymnbook for both variety and arrangements is Hymns for the Family of God. It's excellent. If I had my way, I would be put in charge of compiling hymns for a new LDS hymnbook. We'd get back "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" and I'd add more chorales as well as a few spirituals. I'd be happiest if we just spent an hour singing good music. That's more of a spiritual experience for me than listening to talks.

 

I can't sing "Praise to the Man," though. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth even though the music is awesome.

 

Here I am, the Chorister of our ward (and Primary) and was looking for the words to Come Thou Fount in my hymn book because I wanted to sing the words that I couldn't remember...lets just say I was sorely saddened to see it not there and I knew at one time it had been. I forgot about my older older hymnal (from the early 1950's). I looked later and there it was! :D

[TexasRachel]

I was looking at pinterest and saw this post and thought of this thread. She's got some of the good quotes up from conference.

[Live2Ride]

Ok y'all. You'uns. Youse guys. And the rest of you too.

 

I'm having a really hard time picking bits to post from Pres. Eyring's talk. I kinda just want to cut and paste the whole thing. If you had to choose one snippet you liked best, what would it be?

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/mountains-to-climb?lang=eng&media=video

 

This from his talk spoke to me...a couple of years ago, my husband and I went through a very hard time in our marriage...repentence is a wonderful gift. Service towards others helped me to move forward and find that I was a loved daughter of Heavenly Father. That I was able to bless others with some of my time and talents made me feel better about myself and in turn I was strengthened. My faith grew, my testimony grew and I was stronger than I was before.

 

From Elder Eyrings talk:

 

"Now, I wish to encourage those who are in the midst of hard trials, who feel their faith may be fading under the onslaught of troubles. Trouble itself can be your way to strengthen and finally gain unshakable faith. Moroni, the son of Mormon in the Book of Mormon, told us how that blessing could come to pass. He teaches the simple and sweet truth that acting on even a twig of faith allows God to grow it:

 

“And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

 

“For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

 

“But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

 

“Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.â€7

 

When hard trials come, the faith to endure them well will be there, built as you may now notice but may have not at the time that you acted on the pure love of Christ, serving and forgiving others as the Savior would have done. You built a foundation of faith from loving as the Savior loved and serving for Him. Your faith in Him led to acts of charity that will bring you hope.

 

It is never too late to strengthen the foundation of faith. There is always time. With faith in the Savior, you can repent and plead for forgiveness. There is someone you can forgive. There is someone you can thank. There is someone you can serve and lift. You can do it wherever you are and however alone and deserted you may feel.

 

I cannot promise an end to your adversity in this life. I cannot assure you that your trials will seem to you to be only for a moment. One of the characteristics of trials in life is that they seem to make clocks slow down and then appear almost to stop.

 

There are reasons for that. Knowing those reasons may not give much comfort, but it can give you a feeling of patience. Those reasons come from this one fact: in Their perfect love for you, Heavenly Father and the Savior want you fitted to be with Them to live in families forever. Only those washed perfectly clean through the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be there. "

[Veritaserum]

Here I am, the Chorister of our ward (and Primary) and was looking for the words to Come Thou Fount in my hymn book because I wanted to sing the words that I couldn't remember...lets just say I was sorely saddened to see it not there and I knew at one time it had been. I forgot about my older older hymnal (from the early 1950's). I looked later and there it was! :D

 

Anyone serious about hymns keeps a copy of the old hymnal. ;) I know my dad has several as well as two dozen copies of the score to Handel's Messiah (Schirmer's edition only). :tongue_smilie: