AuntieM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Many of us have said we would donate much of the money. Do any of you remember that case a few years ago when an older gentleman won a large jackpot, tried to give millions to his church, and his donation was refused because the source of the funds was gambling related? I think this happened in the Carolinas, eastern US, anyway. I would love to pay off the balance of the mortgage on our church. I would love to help missionary friends with major building projects. I would love to establish an inner city medical clinic. But I wonder - would my money be refused? Imagine you are a potential receipient. You are a Christian and/or represent a Christian organization. Would you have an ethical dilemma on your hands? What thinks the Hive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well there is always the response that God allowed you to win the lottery to help others. :tongue_smilie: I don't know, that is an interesting question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well there is always the response that God allowed you to win the lottery to help others. :tongue_smilie: That's one way to look at it! I wonder if this would make a good story: the one and only time the protagonist buys a lottery ticket, he wins THE BIG ONE but then he can't give the money away no matter how hard he tries.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnsinkableKristen Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I'm sure you could give the money anonymously some way. And you wouldn't have to give away the BIG chunk all at once. You could send a few churches a hunk of money each month for a few years. It might be kind of fun to see how you could give lots of money to someone without them ever knowing it was from you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnsinkableKristen Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Oh, but for the question, I would have zero problems accepting that money. Why turn my nose up at some one who is trying to do a good thing?? It's not like he got the money from human trafficking or killing pets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 That's one way to look at it! I wonder if this would make a good story: the one and only time the protagonist buys a lottery ticket, he wins THE BIG ONE but then he can't give the money away no matter how hard he tries.... The protagonist could always give the money to me. I wouldn't refuse it :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 I agree. It seems silly not to take the money. I wonder if it's a commentary on how taboos have shifted. Two generations ago, drinking, smoking and gambling were the big offenders. Today it takes drug dealing and human trafficking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 George Bernard Shaw's play, "Major Barbara," deals with some of the same themes. Barbara is a major in the Salvation Army and is disillusioned when she finds out that the organization is willing to accept money from an arms manufacturer (her father) and a whisky distiller. Shaw used to play to discuss charities who only want "pure" money. Very interesting play as I recall, though it's been decades since I read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 George Bernard Shaw's play, "Major Barbara," deals with some of the same themes. Barbara is a major in the Salvation Army and is disillusioned when she finds out that the organization is willing to accept money from an arms manufacturer (her father) and a whisky distiller. Shaw used to play to discuss charities who only want "pure" money. Very interesting play as I recall, though it's been decades since I read it. Thanks, Karen! I just found it free in the kindle store! I'd not heard of this play. Alas, the plight of an aspiring novelist...discovering that somebody else already wrote down my bright idea...:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 For us we would pay off our house and vehicles. Pay my parent's bills off and give them extras then stock the rest away for kids college. No quitting jobs or anything crazy like previous winners. Will not give money to church....I have my reasons not because it is gambling related or anything like that...just personal reasons. However I would give some to a charitable organization where the money would go to the needs not the administrators. I find it very hard to find an organization that acutally give the money to the needy like American Red Cross. kwim?? Too many organization that is nonprofit still takes some of the money donated for the heads. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 From an atheist point of view, I find the topic fascinating. I don't remember offhand who it was, but some organization refused donations from Foundation Beyond Belief. Atheist money is no good in some eyes. I'll have to remember that if I win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The men in our parish have a betting pool every Lent on who can lose the most weight...yeah, I don't think our church would care that I spent a $1 for a ticket....I think I would have to go to confession if I wasted $100 that we don't have for 100 tickets though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I wonder if it's a commentary on how taboos have shifted. Two generations ago, drinking, smoking and gambling were the big offenders. I don't think those were a universal taboo among all denominations of Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 DH is very strongly opposed to the lottery. I once told a friend, in his presence, that I could I never buy a ticket because, if I won, I'd have to explain to him what I was doing buying a lottery ticket. He looked at me and said, "I think I could forgive you." :) I can see our church turning down money from gambling winnings. As to whether they should or not, I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Thanks, Karen! I just found it free in the kindle store! I'd not heard of this play. Alas, the plight of an aspiring novelist...discovering that somebody else already wrote down my bright idea...:lol: One of my nanowrimo stories involved a post-apocalyptic world and a shopping cart. I seriously thought it was a great unique idea. Then I read The Road. I swear I had not heard of it until after I wrote my story. I forgive McCarthy for stealing my idea because they cast Viggo in the movie. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Why turn my nose up at some one who is trying to do a good thing?? It's not like he got the money from human trafficking or killing pets. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in those church meetings! I suspect that, in the end, the church's stance was that if we believe the funds come from a wrong action, it doesn't matter if the wrong action was jaywalking or human trafficking, or if the donor's intentions are good. They don't see wrong in levels: Might be wrong, a little wrong, sort of wrong, wrong but with heart in the right place, mostly wrong, horrifically wrong. Wrong (and in this case, gambling fit their definition) is wrong. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorMama Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Thanks, Karen! I just found it free in the kindle store! I'd not heard of this play. Alas, the plight of an aspiring novelist...discovering that somebody else already wrote down my bright idea...:lol: Ah, but sharing a bright idea with George Bernard Shaw is nothing to sniff at! Just means you're thinking like one of the greats. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't think those were a universal taboo among all denominations of Christianity. Nope, a lot of that had more to do with the Temperance Movement and Prohibition. Post-Welch's when many Protestants started using grape juice in place of wine. Then you had the fundamentalist movements of holy rollers that came up the "don't drink, dance, smoke, or chew nor go with girls who do". Add in writings and Chick-like tracts (pre-Chick) that spoke of all the evils of the theatre, the movie house, television, dances, various kinds of dress being immoral, short hair on women, music other than church music, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susankenny Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Cake walks and raffles are forms of gambling. Churches don't refuse that kind of money. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I can see our church turning down money from gambling winnings. As to whether they should or not, I'm not sure. Personally, I think they shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Even if it was an evil, horrible person who had earned the money doing despicable things, if he wanted to donate that money to the church, I think they should accept it. Maybe it would be the person's way of trying to repent for all of the bad things he has done. Maybe he just wants to "get in good with God" because he's starting to worry about the whole eternity thing. Who cares? Take the money. Theoretically, a church would use the money to do good things. Thousands of people could benefit greatly from a huge donation. Thousands of people who would never be helped without that huge donation. I think sometimes people let their personal disdain for a "bad person" or a "bad thing" -- even something as minor as buying a lottery ticket, because it counts as gambling -- get in the way of looking at the big picture and the greater good. If a church is so concerned that the money was gotten in an ill-advised way, help the donor see the error of his ways. Counsel him. Help him be a better person. But take the money and say thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) However I would give some to a charitable organization where the money would go to the needs not the administrators. I find it very hard to find an organization that acutally give the money to the needy like American Red Cross. kwim?? Too many organization that is nonprofit still takes some of the money donated for the heads. [/quotE] "Nonprofit" does not equal "no expenses." There is no such thing as an organization that doesn't have to use at least some of the money it receives (donations, grants, other funding sources) to continue to operate, nonprofit or for profit, including the American Red Cross. Now, that's not to say they use an excessive amount of donations for things like administration, fundraising, etc---looks like only about 7.9% (3.8% for fundraising). Here's the Charity Navigator report http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3277. That's a far cry from some of the ones reported, where only 10% or less goes to the charitable organization and the rest goes to the for-profit fundraising company they hired to solicit donations for them http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=topten.detail&listid=28. It is important to check into the practices of any charitable organization before donating. Edited March 30, 2012 by KarenNC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy2BeautifulGirls Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Thanks, Karen! I just found it free in the kindle store! I'd not heard of this play. Alas, the plight of an aspiring novelist...discovering that somebody else already wrote down my bright idea...:lol: I have learned this: All story ideas have already been written. Any idea you can come up with will be a retelling of something somewhere. I can't remember where I heard that. Anyway, I suggest you write yours BEFORE reading that one. (And if you don't, I'll do it for NaNo this year!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy2BeautifulGirls Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Cake walks and raffles are forms of gambling. Churches don't refuse that kind of money. Susan :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I can only assume the decision to not accept $x from "polluted" sources (that don't offend the general public) is to avoid offending other donors. It would be difficult to imagine a screening strategy that successfully avoids all money that has come through yucky sources (if any such exist at all). I was getting ready to list some examples, but that could go on all day. Profit-making strategies often aren't pretty or "pure." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_ashley Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have no true objections to moderate gambling--but I can't ignore how the lottery preys on the poor. It's despicable. I just can't bring myself to buy a single ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have no true objections to moderate gambling--but I can't ignore how the lottery preys on the poor. It's despicable. I just can't bring myself to buy a single ticket. Certain lotteries here in PA are used to help senior citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Take the money. Theoretically, a church would use the money to do good things. Thousands of people could benefit greatly from a huge donation. Thousands of people who would never be helped without that huge donation. I think sometimes people let their personal disdain for a "bad person" or a "bad thing" -- even something as minor as buying a lottery ticket, because it counts as gambling -- get in the way of looking at the big picture and the greater good. If a church is so concerned that the money was gotten in an ill-advised way, help the donor see the error of his ways. Counsel him. Help him be a better person. But take the money and say thank you. Those that refuse are actually missing a great PR opportunity to exhibit exactly how the power of their religion can redeem anything from sin, including money and people. They would do better (and, I think, be more theologically consistent) to take the money and have a very public service or ritual to bless it to the service of their God. Draw all kinds of parallels between this sanctifying of the money to sanctifying sinners. After all, "to sanctify" is to literally "make holy" and change the very nature of the thing or person sanctified, including "wiping away sin." Isn't that what the church is supposed to be in the business of doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippen Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Imagine you are a potential receipient. You are a Christian and/or represent a Christian organization. Would you have an ethical dilemma on your hands? My friend solved this problem by donating her winning from the boat by placing cash in the collection plate. ;) I know for a fact that my church wouldn't take it. But I'd be happy to put it to good use elsewhere in my community to do good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I know several churches that would not take the money. I don't agree with their position, but I do know that they are acting off of genuine principle and not from a desire to project a certain image. I would not wish for them to go against their consciences by accepting the money. It would sadden me not to be able to help the church, but I think I would quietly try to help those in need within the church (that would allow it) and be a help that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_ashley Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Certain lotteries here in PA are used to help senior citizens. The lottery funds all do good things (education funding, seniors, scholarships). It doesn't change the fact that those good things are funded on the backs of the poor. John Piper wrote an interesting blog post on it today. I didn't agree with all of what we wrote but did with his summary: "So, if you win, don’t tithe your lottery winnings to our church. Christ does not build his church on the backs of the poor." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The lottery funds all do good things (education funding, seniors, scholarships). It doesn't change the fact that those good things are funded on the backs of the poor. John Piper wrote an interesting blog post on it today. I didn't agree with all of what we wrote but did with his summary: Actually, the poor have also helped build up the church in various ways. So yes, it's been on the backs of the rich and the poor alike. And those that I know with more money are more likely to buy more tickets than those with less...except those with gambling issues. But then, that's an issue with the person not the lottery. Reason #154 why I'm glad I'm no longer Reformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 WRT Piper, he must have forgotten the story of the widow's tithe...she gave all she had. If that doesn't qualify as poor, I don't know what would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_ashley Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 And those that I know with more money are more likely to buy more tickets than those with less...except those with gambling issues. Your anecdotal experience just isn't true. Those living below the poverty level spend an average of 10% of their income on the lottery. Piper is very obviously using the phrase "on the backs of the poor" in an exploitative sense. How bizarre to compare the widow's mite offering to tithing on your lottery winnings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Your anecdotal experience just isn't true. Those living below the poverty level spend an average of 10% of their income on the lottery. Piper is very obviously using the phrase "on the backs of the poor" in an exploitative sense. How bizarre to compare the widow's mite offering to tithing on your lottery winnings. oh yes, because being poor, having a husband that was raised poor, living in an inpoverished neighbourhood with friends and neighbours that are poor, and my husband working with other working poor just doesn't count does it? Oh, and you can take offense all you want about the widow's mite. Others see it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 My church would refuse the money, yep. I don't buy lottery tickets (because it's against my religion and anyway it's a waste of money and pretty evil), but I wouldn't even be able to pay tithing on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Cake walks and raffles are forms of gambling. Churches don't refuse that kind of money. Susan Mine does. No raffles! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 My church would refuse the money, yep. I don't buy lottery tickets (because it's against my religion and anyway it's a waste of money and pretty evil), but I wouldn't even be able to pay tithing on it. :iagree:Yep, the LDS church will not take tithing money from gambling, lotteries or money won at any other "game of chance". We do not sell raffle tickets or anything like that for fundraisers. I have no problems with that. To paraphrase Dave Ramsey, "Lotteries are simply a tax on poor people." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_ashley Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 oh yes, because being poor, having a husband that was raised poor, living in an inpoverished neighbourhood with friends and neighbours that are poor, and my husband working with other working poor just doesn't count does it? Oh, and you can take offense all you want about the widow's mite. Others see it differently. I'm just pointing out that even it's true within your circle (which I doubt), it's not true overall according to research. I'm not remotely offended, just pointing out the false analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I'm just pointing out that even it's true within your circle (which I doubt), it's not true overall according to research. I'm not remotely offended, just pointing out the false analogy. Thank you for calling me a liar :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett_ashley Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Geez, I'm not calling you a liar. I just think it's likely that your perceptions are skewed--self-reporting and confirmation biases and all that (unless you in some way have first-hand knowledge of exactly how much a large sample size of both poor and middle class people spend on the lottery?). Genuinely sorry this has gotten so personal. Signing off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I think that churches are not going to be able to poilice just where their donations come from. And in a way they don't really have to. It is a bit like when you give a man a dollar because he asks, you are being kind, even if he then decides to use it for something bad. You are not responsible for the bad thing. And to an extent that is also true of accepting money as well. Not to mention, there is probably a ton of money coming in to churches that is tainted somehow. How many people are not entirely ethical in business? What about money from someone who is advertising but who walks the lien with truthfulness? That being said, there is the question of giving scandal. If everyone knows the money is coming from something dodgy, it can give them the impression the organization is supporting that activity. And they may even conclude erroneously that the activity is ok, if the church thinks so. So to me, it is a bit of a balancing act where a lot of factors come into play. Accepting money from a lottery winner, which people in the church or community might not even know about, is different than a public donation perhaps, and that is different still from running a Sunday night bingo game to raise funds. Personally, I don't consider that gambling is necessarily a sinful activity. PLaying a game of chance for fun or buying a ticket on a basket to support a charity, with no real expectation of winning is not, IMO, sinful. Even a lottery ticket with no real expectations is probably ok IMO. It's really the idea of making money without work that gets into questionable territory. But I think it is a lot less of a problem than say usury, which is endemic and which no one really questions. I might even have more issues with churches making money off of investments of some types than gambling. The tax on the poor thing is unconvincing to me. I might think it is a silly thing to do, but you know, it is their money. I am not going to paternalisticly tell them what they can spend it on "because it isn't good for them". Social structures that keep people from getting ahead are more to the point - that makes people figure they might as well play, since work is not going to be much help. Edited March 31, 2012 by Bluegoat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Geez, I'm not calling you a liar. I just think it's likely that your perceptions are skewed--self-reporting and confirmation biases and all that (unless you in some way have first-hand knowledge of exactly how much a large sample size of both poor and middle class people spend on the lottery?). Genuinely sorry this has gotten so personal. Signing off. I think that you are not taking into consideration that things are different in varying places. When I lived in the midwest, I would have fully agreed with you...as the working poor were many times the ones that would "go to the boat", etc. Where I'm located now, I've seen a different mindset. In fact, the people that I've seen spend the most, within various groups that I'm familiar with are middle class and one that is working poor, but has no children. Yes, I took it personal when you said "I doubt it", considering you do not know myself, my friends, nor my neighbours. If you had left off at "statistically across the US" that would have been impersonal and not something I would have argued with. Not sure if I agree with the statistics as we do not know the details of them, but it would not have been a personal attack. Edited March 31, 2012 by mommaduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Gosh, I could use the lottery :) I'd be happy to take any spillage from anyone having extra money... It's go straight to paying off debt, and I'm pretty sure Cards are evil ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Gosh, I could use the lottery :) I'd be happy to take any spillage from anyone having extra money... It's go straight to paying off debt, and I'm pretty sure Cards are evil ;) Reminds me: when my stepfather was teaching us to play Spades, he would remind us to not tell his mother that he was teaching us. She was against all card-playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susankenny Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Mine does. No raffles! :001_smile: Well your church is extra holy, what can I say. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 To paraphrase Dave Ramsey, "Lotteries are simply a tax on poor people." Except that poor people have a choice in whether or not to participate. Choosing to buy a lottery ticket, regardless of one's income, is not an imposed payment (from the M-W definition of "tax"), no matter what Dave Ramsey says. I get the point he's trying to make: The money goes to the government. And for many of the people buying lottery tickets, it's not a financially sound choice. But it's still a choice, and those points don't make the lottery a tax. Regardless of income, adults are responsible for their choices. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 In regards to "the widow's mite".... People often misread that passage. Here is a good analysis that talks about abusing the poor: http://time2changechurches.blogspot.com/2008/02/abusing-poor-by-john-macarthur.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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