Ordinary Kids and High School Plans

[CyndiLJ]

I find myself feeling a little blue reading many of the posts here, for I always feel inadequate and wonder if anyone else out there feels the same way. We have a 7th grader heading into 8th, and high school planning looms. He is bright and a capable student, if he were in public he'd be in the lower end of the top group. Not brilliant, but a hard worker, and most adults view him as quite bright.

 

As we look toward high school planning, I find myself quite conflicted. When we first started homeschooling 2 1/2 years ago, one of our goals was to make sure our kids weren't stuck learning the garbage they would never use or apply, the time wasters, the "box checker" material. We want them to be well rounded, and didn't want to "teach to college" anymore than we wanted to "teach to the test". We want real life skills to be foremost and well cemented, but without neglecting college prep at a basic level in case they decide to head that direction. Right now, we aren't sure about any of our five, and I also am concerned these days about the value of the college education versus the income potential/job potential out there. We have not a drop to put towards college, and our kids are not academic superstars nor athletes at all for scholarship opportunities. I know they can get some, but they won't stand out...and we aren't even sure if that is the direction they ought to go or if technical/trades route wouldn't be a wiser way to invest post-high school funds.

 

I guess I don't even have a real question here, other than wondering if anyone else feels sort of "caught in the middle" and wondering how to best direct their children.

 

Cindy

[Sugar Plum]

I guess I don't even have a real question here, other than wondering if anyone else feels sort of "caught in the middle" and wondering how to best direct their children.

 

 

Me! Yes! I do!

 

My oldest will be a 9th grader this fall. We've homeschooled all the way through, with an eye to educating the whole person rather than a brain in a jar. We've tended toward a lack of structure, which was born somewhat of necessity. Ds#1 and dd (as well as dh) have ADHD, and ds#2 has Asperger's. My hands have been kind of full, kwim? All three of my kids are technically gifted (they were all tested in the process of figuring out their various neurological and learning disabilities), but none of them is a real "star" in any area. As we approach high school, I've started to read the boards here for some extra guidance, and sometimes, despite the wonderful words of wisdom I have gleaned here, I read and I literally hyperventilate. I am not a person who misuses "literally"--I actually hyperventilate. :)

 

I have spent most of this school year feeling incredibly torn trying to figure out what rigor looks like for my kids, what expectations are enough, how to get there, etc. Looking as ds#1's writing skills has led me to tears on more than one occasion, but then I look at his peers' performance and feel like he's doing so much better at home than he would be at school. It boggles my mind that the kids in our community being schooled in our "State Blue Ribbon" district are exiting high school with such low levels of literacy and critical thinking skills, but also with the Golden Ticket to great colleges that a bazillion APs bring. Dh and I were both high performing students who went to college at a top school--the pressure to try to recreate that with my own son has been just incredible. Balancing that urge with the knowledge that we've been well-served by a pretty laid-back approach so far has been difficult for me.

 

Okay. I realize I am rambling. Suffice to say--I'm in a similar spot. :)

 

ETA: I am not in any way criticizing the way anyone else chooses to homeschool. I realize upon a reread that my "brain in a jar" comment can be read that way. I want to clarify that "brain in a jar" education was a mentality resulting from my own experience as a student that I had to fight in myself when we started our homeschool journey, and that the struggle has reappeared this year as we approach high school.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Sugar Plum

[JanetC]

Here are some good blogs to subscribe to for the high school years. I have bought a couple of products from the first, but for the other two I've just read the blogs for the past year or so and am learning a lot.

 

It really does help to educate yourself!

 

www.thehomescholar.com

 

She is a homeschool mom who teaches people how to do transcripts, college, and scholarship applications. She does talk a lot about "teaching to the college admission requirements"--i.e. take English, Math, and well-rounded electives in multiple areas, but that there are lots of ways to do these things. (Christian resource)

 

www.wiselikeus.com

 

This is a private college counselor. The angle here is: "Find the college that's right for a kid like you, don't change yourself into someone you're not to try to impress a college." Very warm and reassuring that there is a college out there for everybody if you look around. (Secular, out of my price range to actually try!)

 

www.thecollegesolution.com

 

This one is mostly about the realities of financial aid. (Secular)

 

I will buy her book when we hit the end of sophomore year, but because financial aid rules are always changing, I want to wait to make sure I have the latest edition for my children's application cycles. Eye-opening.

 

--Janet

[Starr]

I think you aim for college entrance and keep all options open. People go back to school at all different ages and many entry level jobs want some college. Not everyone has to be at the top of the food chain to go to college and find ways to make it affordable. I would look at the requirements for a local cc or state school and go from there.

[CyndiLJ]

I think part of it is that I am SICK of our "college obsessed" world. I seriously don't remember it being like this when I was in high school, and there were many trade options even in our school district. Today, it feels as if high school is simply to prepare every kid for college, and I am sorry...regardless of what the 21st century experts try to tell us...you can teach to college, but the hard core truth is that probably half or at least a third really don't belong there, and the college drop out rate or remediation rate proves that. So what is the point with this obsession?

 

It is NOT that I don't value education, obviously I do or we wouldn't be homeschooling!! But where is the common sense? Where are parents like me whose kids may or may not be really college material of one looked with a more evaluative eye at all kids.

 

It isn't all about the cost, it is about casting each of our children as college-ready, despite the fact that thousands really aren't but feel there are no real other options out there for them or they have been brainwashed to feel "less than" if they elect not to attend.

 

I don't know, it is just becoming a real moral/ethical dilemma for me.

 

Cindy

[mazakaal]

I understand your thinking. College is not the best route for everyone. I expect that my oldest will not go to college. He loves to surf and wants to work in the surf industry. He also wants to be a professional surfer. I expect that when he finishes his formal schooling he will tour if he can get sponsorships or, more likely, get a job. My second child is more academic, but seriously lacks motivation. I'm hoping he can turn himself around in the next four years, because I think that he could benefit from a college education. We don't have any money to put into it, but by the time that he'd be going off to school my youngest kids will be a bit older and more independent, and I'm hoping I could get a part-time job to help pay for it. We'll have to see what the economy is like then.

 

I recommend that you read the book Looking Beyond the Ivy League. It explains that Ivy League isn't all it's cracked up to be and lists many colleges that are great schools, but not as expensive nor as competitive for entrance.

[BakersDozen]

When we first started homeschooling 2 1/2 years ago, one of our goals was to make sure our kids weren't stuck learning the garbage they would never use or apply, the time wasters, the "box checker" material. We want them to be well rounded, and didn't want to "teach to college" anymore than we wanted to "teach to the test".

I face this every single day. Right now we are doing Biology and oh my, how many times do my dc ask me, "Mom, when will we ever need to know this???" My honest answer is that they probably won't need to know it, won't ever use it, so just learn it, take the stupid test and forget it. (I imagine the science types reading this are cringing...:D) I am struck at how much we are "supposed" to teach our dc that is just.plain.useless. Thankfully I'm learning to either ignore/skip things or do what I described above. My dc are not going to fail in life because they can't remember 999 Biology terms!

[jamajo]

Sometimes its not just the content but a skill set you are teaching. My chemistry teacher use to say "It teaches you to think" which I agree. My brain is able to think through complex processes and procedures because of academic rigor and or taking classes that seemed useless in terms of the content. Research, troubleshooting, trial and error, patience, are all skills taught in these upper level courses.

 

Just my opinion.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[elegantlion]

I think part of it is that I am SICK of our "college obsessed" world. I seriously don't remember it being like this when I was in high school, and there were many trade options even in our school district. Today, it feels as if high school is simply to prepare every kid for college, and I am sorry...regardless of what the 21st century experts try to tell us...you can teach to college, but the hard core truth is that probably half or at least a third really don't belong there, and the college drop out rate or remediation rate proves that. So what is the point with this obsession?

 

I don't know, it is just becoming a real moral/ethical dilemma for me.

 

Cindy

 

I'm not college obsessed, but at minimum some type of degree (preferably 4 year) is required (as in expected, not rigid inflexible) for my son. He's an average student not shooting for Ivies or top tier. Why? Because like it or not, most jobs that he would want require a BA/BS as a minimum. Without that degree many doors will automatically be closed to him.

 

Why am we (dh and I) adamant about this? Because we don't have degrees. We're in our 40s, 50s. I topped out at several jobs in my life because I didn't have a degree. Dh successfully owned his own business for years, but wanted to change fields. To do would have required a degree. With a physically hard job and life attending night was his only option. It never got done. At age 49 he became unemployed due to a variety of reasons. His job search was extremely limited because he doesn't have a degree in something. Had he finished at degree in his 20s he would have been able to leave the field.

 

Our schedule may look rigorous to some, but with an average kid with varying abilities, it's really not. Our plan for next year looks similar, but some of it has been the building of skills for years. Some of it is diving in blindly and hoping we can swim.

 

My biggest issue with high school is going to be trying to quantify this nebulous growth I see. Can he spit back facts and multiple choice on a test and call it good? Can I really do oral grades to the depth I'd like? Can he write well and express the connections I see happening? These are issues I'm dealing with.

 

As far as content, I am convinced about exposing him to many areas he may never use again. Why? Because he's 14 1/2. He has some varied interests that have developed, but he's still a teen. He doesn't know enough about biology or chemistry or geometry to know if he really cares for it. It's not just about knowing stuff, it's about becoming a well-rounded individual. I want him to own his academic choices in college, so we'll explore at the high school level. And as Jamanjo said, it's about learning the skills. We've spent more time these last two years of middle school dealing with skills rather than content.

 

So for us rigor may be different than another's definition, but I want to be as rigorous as my son can handle.

[G5052]

I'm very careful to never let my children say that a subject is "useless." In life, you really never know.

 

My husband and I have both "reinvented" ourselves professionally multiple times and are mostly working in fields that we weren't working in 30 years ago. He went to trade school and is now in a very technical/professional field that didn't even exist until a few years ago. I have all the degrees, but the majority of my work is in a field entirely different than my degrees. That said, I wouldn't be working where I am without the degrees because that is a basic requirement for most professional jobs these days.

 

Also, I teach at a community college that focuses on nursing and allied health fields, and over and over my students say how much they wish that they had been told in high school that all of the academic fields are important in some way.

 

And don't disparage the community colleges. Even being an academically-oriented family, we fully plan to send ours there unless they qualify for an aid package that makes a 4-year school less expensive.

Edited March 29, 2012 by GVA

[creekland]

I think part of it is that I am SICK of our "college obsessed" world. I seriously don't remember it being like this when I was in high school, and there were many trade options even in our school district.

Cindy

 

We've discussed this a bit in our family and have actually reached a reasonable conclusion. College has become more important because a huge segment of good "non-college" jobs have disappeared from our country. It used to be that kids didn't even need to finish high school, much less college, and they could get a good job at a local factory or farm. Mechanization started the change - replacing tons of workers. Sending factories overseas has removed more. E-mail and computers in general have replaced more (even the post office is cutting back). The military, once a common destination of the non-college bound, is also cutting back and many in it are coming from college backgrounds of some sort (beyond officers who have always needed a degree in recent times). The future is only likely to produce more of the same.

 

So, now, the majority of the non-college jobs are in retail and food service - both notoriously low paying. Sure, there are some trade jobs that still pay well (plumbing is the one often brought up), but around here, plumbers are also a dime a dozen and are hurting for work in this economy.

 

Most entry level jobs want some sort of college education EVEN IF the worker isn't using what they studied. A student at school who wanted to be an airline stewardess (or whatever they call that now) told me she needed a college degree. WHY? But it is what it is. Hence, the push toward college.

 

College applications at every school I've seen are up. It was a tough year to get accepted this year and even tougher to get merit aid. Many schools are cutting back aid (both need based and merit), so one needs as high of a score as they can get and to be as rounded of an application as they can.

 

The good news is community colleges are an option for those who don't necessarily want a top level education, but still need that piece of paper. The bad news is that even those classes are filling up as more realize how much real competition is out there for even the most basic jobs.

 

More good news? I think you're doing fine. I see the average kids in our ps. Most succeed (success defined by having a job that pays the bills). Some go to college (almost totally lower level colleges including cc). There are niches out there for everyone and not all need to have top 5% stats to reach. The best niche for a person is where they like - not prestige, not money, not a tippy top college - it's where they fit. But that doesn't change the fact that our country is heading toward more college, not less, for most people - unlike the old days.

[creekland]

I'm very careful to never let my children say that a subject is "useless." In life, you really never know.

 

 

:iagree: And I cringe when I hear someone say it. At the very least, learning more about different things correlates well with less symptoms of Alzheimers (probably due to more brain neuron paths being developed and kept), but there are many times when something thought to be "useless" really isn't later in life.

[RobinL in Canada]

I hear you. I frequented the WTM boards for a number of years, then took a break of a couple of years when I realized that I was letting myself be too affected by what others were doing and I was not. I recently returned to the boards as I'm planning gr 8 and up with my youngest son; my older boys are all graduated (one is gr 12 and in school this year). Returning to the boards has been helpful in some ways--I've discovered some interesting new materials and links through various posts--but once again, I find myself sliding into that trap of feeling that I'm Not Doing Enough and nvere did Do Enough. With my older three, I had dreams of Great Books discussions and string ensembles; what I got were rock bands and endless recounting of movie dialogue ; ) And my youngest, poor kid--I have only semi-jokingly told him that he is My Last Great Hope.

 

All that said, my artsy, non-math-or-science sons have still done well enough. All can write extremely well (my one gift to them , I suppose, as an English academic), a vital skill for virtually any field of study or work. But the differences in their desires and plans! My oldest, who refused to attend university ("I don't want to go to school for 4 more years!") graduated last summer from a college Theatre Arts program and now has to decide what to do with himself whereas my second son is finishing first year university, wants to major in psychology, and is already planning where he will do his master's. Third son has no plans yet; fourth son--did I mention he was my Last Great Hope? )

 

All that rambling to say that I don't have an answer to your dilemma but I can understand that feeling of "not quite belonging" here. I always feel inadequate when I come to these boards (not because anyone here makes me feel that way; that is my own doing) yet feel myself entirely competent when I move in my local hs'ing circles. Standards and styles of hs'ing vary; kids vary; life varies. Ideally, *I* would like to see all my children attend university for the doors that opportunity will open and not allow them to close those doors too soon, but as my sons become young adults, I cannot make all their decisions for them. As a Christian, though, I constantly have to remind myself that I'm not going it alone--my children and their lives are not entirely in my own hands, and I'm thankful for that.

 

Best of luck in working through these issues with your own children.

[creekland]

I'm not college obsessed, but at minimum some type of degree (preferably 4 year) is required (as in expected, not rigid inflexible) for my son. He's an average student not shooting for Ivies or top tier. Why? Because like it or not, most jobs that he would want require a BA/BS as a minimum. Without that degree many doors will automatically be closed to him.

 

Why am we (dh and I) adamant about this? Because we don't have degrees. We're in our 40s, 50s. I topped out at several jobs in my life because I didn't have a degree. Dh successfully owned his own business for years, but wanted to change fields. To do would have required a degree. With a physically hard job and life attending night was his only option. It never got done. At age 49 he became unemployed due to a variety of reasons. His job search was extremely limited because he doesn't have a degree in something. Had he finished at degree in his 20s he would have been able to leave the field.

 

Our schedule may look rigorous to some, but with an average kid with varying abilities, it's really not. Our plan for next year looks similar, but some of it has been the building of skills for years. Some of it is diving in blindly and hoping we can swim.

 

My biggest issue with high school is going to be trying to quantify this nebulous growth I see. Can he spit back facts and multiple choice on a test and call it good? Can I really do oral grades to the depth I'd like? Can he write well and express the connections I see happening? These are issues I'm dealing with.

 

As far as content, I am convinced about exposing him to many areas he may never use again. Why? Because he's 14 1/2. He has some varied interests that have developed, but he's still a teen. He doesn't know enough about biology or chemistry or geometry to know if he really cares for it. It's not just about knowing stuff, it's about becoming a well-rounded individual. I want him to own his academic choices in college, so we'll explore at the high school level. And as Jamanjo said, it's about learning the skills. We've spent more time these last two years of middle school dealing with skills rather than content.

 

So for us rigor may be different than another's definition, but I want to be as rigorous as my son can handle.

 

Just for the record... I really like what you wrote. ;)

 

I'm second generation college grad myself and hubby is first. Our kids will be third generation (based on my side). I hope they never break the cycle. They may, or may not, use their actual degree, but they'll always have it if they need it. None of mine are aiming at Ivies, but all are going to schools that are the best fit for them (in our affordability range).

[butterflymommy]

I get blue as well because my son is an apathetic student and is slipping further and further behind in math... he's a good two years behind in math at this point (he insists just 1 1/2 years behind). BUT... trust me, these boards (as much as I enjoy reading them and wasting time here :D) will give you a very unrealistic view of a typical high schooler's academic accomplishments. I have friends with kids in college-- both graduated from public HS, one an elite PS-- one repeatedly failed remedial math because he couldn't understand basic fractions, the other writes so poorly he has to send essays home first to be "fixed." As long as you're plugging away every day instilling some kind of work ethic and academic integrity, you're likely ahead of the game.

[G5052]

The good news is community colleges are an option for those who don't necessarily want a top level education, but still need that piece of paper. The bad news is that even those classes are filling up as more realize how much real competition is out there for even the most basic jobs.

 

 

One of the things that I love about teaching at a community college is that the one I work for works very hard to meet the needs of a wide range of students. Yes, we have many sections of remedial classes. They recently redid the remedial math course so that students only have take the topics that they need (i.e. redo trig versus a whole pre-calc course), which shows how much they want to address the needs of the students. This college also has an honors program though, and transfer agreements with many 4-year schools including some "public ivies." So I like to think that we are meeting many needs, not just the struggling or superstars either.

[creekland]

One of the things that I love about teaching at a community college is that the one I work for works very hard to meet the needs of a wide range of students. Yes, we have many sections of remedial classes. They recently redid the remedial math course so that students only have take the topics that they need (i.e. redo trig versus a whole pre-calc course), which shows how much they want to address the needs of the students. This college also has an honors program though, and transfer agreements with many 4-year schools including some "public ivies." So I like to think that we are meeting many needs, not just the struggling or superstars either.

 

I think it all depends upon where one is located. ;) I've heard there are areas with ccs that prepare one well for top schools. Ours prepares one well for state schools (many opportunities with that), but mainly does 2 year degrees and job training.

[Robin in DFW]

...nevermind...

Edited March 29, 2012 by Robin in DFW
delete...

[BakersDozen]

I'm very careful to never let my children say that a subject is "useless." In life, you really never know.

 

Perhaps I should have used the word "usefulness" instead - as in I feel there are some things that are more useful and some that are not. ;) IMO, a subject/topic can have some interest and perhaps usefulness later in life. However, in our normal, everyday schooling when I have to fit in a myriad of subjects and content matter there does come a point at which I have to decide which content is of utmost importance and which can be skimmed over or even disregarded (feel free to disagree with me :)). I believe our dc can succeed in college and in life even if they don't have 999 Biology terms memorized (can you tell Biology is a thorn in my side lately??). We will discuss these terms but for goodness' sake there is no way I would require my dc to learn and never forget obscure facts and figures that will probably not have a profound impact on their life. I do agree that learning material that seems less than useful can help with research skills and such yet again, when it comes down to balancing our time and having to choose that which is more useful/important, some things just don't make the cut.

 

As long as you're plugging away every day instilling some kind of work ethic and academic integrity, you're likely ahead of the game.

:iagree:

[Miss Marple]

:iagree: And I cringe when I hear someone say it. At the very least, learning more about different things correlates well with less symptoms of Alzheimers (probably due to more brain neuron paths being developed and kept), but there are many times when something thought to be "useless" really isn't later in life.

 

:iagree:

 

Kids change. Often the goals and dreams they have are significantly different in high school than junior high. My motto for homeschooling is to do the job well enough so that my student isn't limited in his choices by the type of schooling I implemented. He can choose college or not but I don't want him to say he was unprepared for college if he chooses to go to college. I refuse to decide if they are college material especially as early as junior high. The life my boys choose will be their choice but not until they graduate from my homeschool :D

[Maverick_Mom]

Cindy, thank you so much for this thread. I could've written it myself. I don't have time to describe our situation, and my Internet connection is acting funny this morning, but I just want to say that I view higher education the same way you do -- as something that *can* be valuable but that to me is increasingly questionable and that poses a moral/ethical dilemma.

 

At the end of the day, the most important things to me in this regard are that my dc do what God wants them to do, and that I do what He wants me to do to prepare them for that. (And if those things are not patently obvious, then we do our best to choose the right path and walk it in faith. I trust God to steer us back if we go off-course.) That may mean college (and I am planning our curriculum in such a way that does not rule that out), and it may not.

 

This is my take on it -- others' mileage may vary. ;)

 

More than anything, I just want to affirm the OP and let her know that she is not alone. :001_smile:

Edited March 29, 2012 by Maverick_Mom

[Briartell]

I have lots of thoughts about this.

 

-I do believe in a varied high school experience to give the student many chances to discover their passions but also to develop skills and a work ethic that will be necessary to achieve their dreams. Biology may not be necessary in life but you at learned one thing . . . that your child doesn't want to study biology in the future. That helps students narrow down options for their future.

 

-My daughter is entering 9th grade in PS next year. I have been very conscious about the college-or-bust attitude when helping her select her classes. Her friends parents are making their kids take every AP class available to increase their GPA. My daughter felt pressured to create a schedule that would keep her in the running for the valedictorian spot. I told her to not worry about it so much. You don't need that spot to be successful in life. So instead of taking an AP class in a subject she has no interest in, she is going to take an Honors World Geography class, a subject that she loves. Instead of doing Algebra 2 and Geometry at the same time, she is going to take an art class (which she has never had once in her middle school). I want a happy child. I want her to love learning. Her coursework is still challenging for her but I refuse to buy into the whole "this won't look as good on the college application" mindset.

 

When I was a student in High School I was pushed towards upper level math and sciences to help me get into college. I regret that. I never took art or technical classes because it wouldn't look good on my applications. A lot of my classmates who took those classes have gone on to many of the same colleges as the STEM kids and have had wonderful careers. You couldn't even pick who the valedictorian was from among the group of us.

 

-My Aunt, who has worked with the State Department of Education, told me that it is the kids that have to work hard to get an 'A' and even a 'B' that makes the most difference in society. Those students have a better work ethic and don't expect life to be easy.

 

-If your child wants to grow up to do a trade, be proud of that. We need more qualified, honest workers in those fields. Give them opportunities to discover if that is what they really want.

 

 

-I think that too much emphasis is placed on top-tier schools in this society. Kids need to go to a school that is economically responsible for the field that they are going into. If you have to fund most of your tuition, you do not go to Yale to become a social worker. You do not need to pay $160,000 in tuition/room and board to become a chef or an elementary educator.

[creekland]

CC, just like University, can be good or bad...

 

I actually agree with you, BUT I think it depends upon the cc or university more than the student. Head to a cc with oodles of Calc classes beyond Calc 1, nice science choices, in depth English classes and the like, and one is likely to have an awesome experience equivalent or better than a 4 year school (probably even smaller classes). However, that doesn't exist at our local cc. My guys have taken classes there - and oldest found his inferior to his mid level 4 year school. (And there are several 4 year schools I wouldn't choose for my own children due to academic level not matching theirs too.)

 

Our cc specializes in 2 year degrees (not STEM though - no class higher than Calc 1 even offered, Chem isn't even offered) and job training. They do that very well. Some students from there do transfer to our state schools (nothing wrong with that - I graduated from a state school and am proud of it).

 

I suppose some could take our experience as snobbery - that's your option - but I feel it is telling it like it is just as your relating your experience does. The important thing is for folks to check out their own options near them and not to generalize across the board.

 

My "first" comments with cc were not supposed to be negative. They are a great option for an "average" student - or even a below average student - who wants a start in getting that piece of paper our society is becoming dependent on. That was the theme of this thread and the way I was tying in cc. If above average students opt to use their local cc for other reasons, esp if they live near a good one, that's kind of a different thread IMO. Not every thread on here needs to be about the higher than average student and what they do.

 

And academic path chosen doesn't at all correlate with personal worth to me.

[Maverick_Mom]

 

-I think that too much emphasis is placed on top-tier schools in this society. Kids need to go to a school that is economically responsible for the field that they are going into. If you have to fund most of your tuition, you do not go to Yale to become a social worker. You do not need to pay $160,000 in tuition/room and board to become a chef or an elementary educator.

 

But it's amazing how many people would disagree with this (I'm not one of them). The thought process is: "It's a jungle out there. Job competition is fierce. I may be able to get a degree in [whatever] as easily at State as at an Ivy, but the Ivy degree will give me an edge."

 

And there's also the perception that many people have that if something costs more, it HAS to be better.

[Miss Marple]

Perhaps I should have used the word "usefulness" instead - as in I feel there are some things that are more useful and some that are not. ;) I believe our dc can succeed in college and in life even if they don't have 999 Biology terms memorized (can you tell Biology is a thorn in my side lately??).

 

:iagree:

 

The problem with defining useful for your students is that sometime in the future what you deemed useless may be important for them.

 

I agree with the assessment that memorization of obscure biology terms is probably a waste of time, but that is precisely the advantage of home schooling. Over the years I have become more confident with tweaking curricula to fit our needs. I'm quite good at it for math and science since that is my field but the liberal arts subjects cause me more angst because I'm less confident there. That's why I find these boards so helpful. I can get a wide range of opinions and I can usually find something that fits us in there. My kids are not stellar. Learning about my kids and their weaknesses and strengths allows me to tailor a program for each. I cannot expect the same output from each of my sons.

 

The higher achieving families sharing their schedules and curricula and pathway (AP, CC, etc) allow me to see beyond my little circle of homeschool cohorts. I try to model many areas of my schooling from them just as I would try to emulate a godly family I might know. But I do it knowing the reality of my boys' abilities, my abilities, and our family lifestyle.

Edited March 29, 2012 by CynthiaOK

[bugs]

:iagree: And I cringe when I hear someone say it. At the very least, learning more about different things correlates well with less symptoms of Alzheimers (probably due to more brain neuron paths being developed and kept), but there are many times when something thought to be "useless" really isn't later in life.

 

:iagree:

 

Kids change. Often the goals and dreams they have are significantly different in high school than junior high. My motto for homeschooling is to do the job well enough so that my student isn't limited in his choices by the type of schooling I implemented. He can choose college or not but I don't want him to say he was unprepared for college if he chooses to go to college. I refuse to decide if they are college material especially as early as junior high. The life my boys choose will be their choice but not until they graduate from my homeschool :D

 

:iagree: And just for the record, my kids are average to just above average. But, my husband and I have taught them to work hard. :D

[Briartell]

But it's amazing how many people would disagree with this (I'm not one of them). The thought process is: "It's a jungle out there. Job competition is fierce. I may be able to get a degree in [whatever] as easily at State as at an Ivy, but the Ivy degree will give me an edge."

 

And there's also the perception that many people have that if something costs more, it HAS to be better.

 

I used to be one of those people but now I know how hard it is to pay off debt and the reality of salaries in the work world. It just isn't worth it.

 

Now, I will admit that there are times when it is appropriate to pay for the top-tier school but it is not always appropriate.

[creekland]

The higher achieving families sharing their schedules and curricula and pathway (AP, CC, etc) allow me to see beyond my little circle of homeschool cohorts. I try to model many areas of my schooling from them just as I would try to emulate a godly family I might know. But I do it knowing the reality of my boys' abilities, my abilities, and our family lifestyle.

 

Umm, I'm of the belief that your guys have done EXTREMELY well... Just saying... ;)

[regentrude]

Now, I will admit that there are times when it is appropriate to pay for the top-tier school but it is not always appropriate.

 

OTOH, with recent developments it may be more expensive for a student to attend an out-of-state public university than an Ivy, as several Ivies have started to actively limit cost for average families (and they have the endowment to do so).

[creekland]

OTOH, with recent developments it may be more expensive for a student to attend an out-of-state public university than an Ivy, as several Ivies have started to actively limit cost for average families (and they have the endowment to do so).

 

Middle son is going to be attending (likely until official next week) a top tier U (not Ivy) for the exact same cost out of pocket as our in-state option.

 

It's always worth it (in my mind) to try different places, without falling in love with any, and compare. Had it not worked out financially, he'd have been ok with the state school (or an OOS public for the same cost).

 

But again, a truly "average" stats kid isn't likely to get accepted to an Ivy. Even top tier will be a challenge. My oldest was unlikely to get accepted where middle son is going, but oldest never wanted to go there anyway. They are different kids with different paths.

[Briartell]

OTOH, with recent developments it may be more expensive for a student to attend an out-of-state public university than an Ivy, as several Ivies have started to actively limit cost for average families (and they have the endowment to do so).

 

I should have made the post more clear. It is the cost that you will actually have to pay after scholarships and grants that I was referring to. More specifically, I meant loans. I realize that tuition can often be much less for higher ranked schools.

[Miss Marple]

Aw, thanks! But by stats they would not be considered stellar. None of mine have broken a 30 on the ACT. I did have one boy score a 34 on the English subsection, but the composite was still under 30. I have high hopes for the youngest. He can do very well, but he is the poster boy for ACADEMIC LAZINESS these days. If he would put the effort into his academics that he puts into his body building, he could rule the world :)

 

But, seriously, my boys do very well once they are find their "calling" and have a goal. It really is about self-motivation in our household. I will forever wonder how those households function where the high stat students school. How do you all motivate those kids????

[creekland]

 

But, seriously, my boys do very well once they are find their "calling" and have a goal. It really is about self-motivation in our household. I will forever wonder how those households function where the high stat students school. How do you all motivate those kids????

 

Our household is all about self-motivation too. My high stats kid is completely self-motivated and has been since birth. He even overcame a speech deficit and surprised his speech teachers by being able to do so. Associated with that he was in the lowest reading group - and worked to be where he is now.

 

Oldest is bright, but not as determined. Youngest is bright, but only works in areas he likes and needs to be prodded for other things. (He most likely won't have great stats, but will have a great future. ;) )

 

Stats aren't everything for most futures. They are for some. Many in both categories can be successful.

[RobinL in Canada]

Just a side thought about the cost of college question: have you ever considered a Canadian university? Canada has many world-class public universities--U of Toronto, U of Waterloo, UBC, McGill, etc--where tuition per year plus residence would total $10,000 or so. You can get a top-notch education here for quite a bit less, it seems, than in the US. I hs'ed my three older sons up through grade 11 (youngest is gr 7 now); they then attended a private Christian school for grade 12, for various reasons. Each received an OSSD (Ontario Secondary School Diploma), having been given equivalent credit for all homeschool work (which I was careful to document and ensure that our courses equated with OSSD requirements). Oldest son, as I mentioned, believes he is called to be a Christian in the world of theatre/ acting, and chose a college program, but tested out of the required first-yr Communications course and received the award for highest academic achievement at graduation. Second son is now at U of Waterloo, having been accepted and obtaining a scholarship based entirely on his 6 grade 12 courses--no APs, no ACT or SAT. He's loving it, and is glad he didn't choose the much more expensive private Christian university in BC which was pursuing him ; )

 

Just a thought....

[Miss Marple]

He is bright and a capable student, if he were in public he'd be in the lower end of the top group. Not brilliant, but a hard worker, and most adults view him as quite bright.

 

This is by far the trait that has made my boys successful: hard workers. This is what has allowed my boys to be highly successful in college when they were just "doing well" in high school.

[kewb]

I am right there with you. My 8th grader is very bright but compared to some our schooling is very light. But when I look at him as a whole person he is well rounded. I try not to compare him to some on these boards or even one of his best friends (that boy is a genius). I can easily make myself crazy. I just continue educating myself on what he needs for college and plod along on my course.

[regentrude]

I will forever wonder how those households function where the high stat students school. How do you all motivate those kids????

 

My DD is intrinsically motivated. She has been a perfectionist since toddler age and just is ambitious. I do not do anything to motivate her, only occasionally have to nag a little that unpleasant subjects get completed.

[Lori D.]

Been thinking through these questions, here, too. We have very average DSs, and neither is highly-motivated person in general, and neither has a strong career leaning. The only thing we do know is that at this time neither is interested in a STEM career field; the slight leanings they have are more towards Humanities/Fine Arts fields. Alas, that, too, means neither has any leaning towards certification/training/apprenticeship in a skilled trade...

 

One quick aside about college costs and scholarships -- lots of volunteer work; involvement in specific extracurricular programs; or doing the projects and essay-writing for a bunch of small scholarships which can add up -- can really boost getting a scholarship that is NOT academically, athletically, or career-interest based. :)

 

 

The statistics I'm seeing are interesting, but hard to decide how to apply to our particular family. I also think it is hard to decide how to apply the statistics because I truly believe we are in the midst of a major social shift, with these as just a few of the factors:

 

- economic shift (almost 4 years into a major "downturn" and changing job market)

- college shift (probably about to have a "burst college bubble" (similar to the bursting housing bubble 4 years ago) -- at the least, a fundamental shift in who can afford to attend college, how many people will go to college, what colleges will or should offer

- job shift -- continuing trend away from manufacturing, and shift toward emphasizing "ideas", management, desk jobs

- degree shift -- continuing trend for employers to want a 4-year degree just as a basic "weeding-out" tool, rather than as a meaningful body of knowledge and training in preparation to be able to work specific jobs

- educational shift -- continuing downward slide in abilities of graduates (high school AND college), and that potentially lessening the value of a degree

 

This 2011 Pew Study, Is College Worth It, is very interesting, with loads of stats from those with degrees, those without, and college presidents asking about is it worth it.

 

These statistics here and here DO show that those WITH degrees have LOWER unemployment rates AND higher overall salaries. HOWEVER, check out this statistic: depending on the degree jobs in some fields, such as Engineering, earn more WITHOUT a 4-year degree than jobs WITH a 4-year degree in other fields, such as Humanities! And then factor in the skyrocketing costs of GETTING a 4-year degree...

 

And check out this mind-blowing statistic: (depending on the jobs and the degrees) a student who starts NOW working and investing money in a long-term account with compound interest (right out of high school, without a degree), may end up out-earning the degree-earner (as far as accrued funds for retirement, not in day-to-day salary)...

 

 

whew!

 

 

As a result, I've been doing some research that you could entitle: "If Not 4-year College (at least, not immediately after high school)... Then What?" The options I am coming up with (in no particular order):

 

1. Military

2. Entrepreneurship (start own business)

3. Work (head straight to working a job)

4. Apprenticeship (simultaneous work/learn a skilled trade)

5. Internship (very short term -- usually 2-6 months; temporary paid or unpaid work in a field of high interest; usually with idea of it leading into 4-year college)

6. Gap Year (short term -- usually 3-12 months; travel, volunteering, work, ministry work, etc. -- specified goals, for specified length of time)

7. Community College (either certificate or 2-year degree then to work; or, take classes that will transfer to 4-year university)

8. Distance Learning (working towards college a little at a time while doing other options through online college credit courses)

 

Most of these have the option of going back to school later -- although, the longer you wait to go, the more responsibilities and difficulties there are in doing so (need the current job to support house/family; not as much time for getting through school; may end up "dead-ending" or being "trapped" in a field or job; military service may cause emotional/physical issues that interfere...)

 

That's about as far as I am at the moment in my researching; I'm going through some specific books on Gap Year; Jobs Not Requiring 4-Year Degrees; and in getting DSs through some career exploration tests on interests and abilities. The very tentative plan at the moment for both DDs is to at least earn a 2-year degree at the CC, WITH the additional coursework that transfers to any of the state universities, so they would only need 2 years at the higher price to complete a 4-year degree...

 

BEST of luck everyone, in thinking through this very complicated, BIG issue! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Lori D.

[creekland]

As a result, I've been doing some research that you could entitle: "If Not 4-year College (at least, not immediately after high school)... Then What?" The options I am coming up with (in no particular order):

 

1. Military

2. Entrepreneurship (start own business)

3. Work (head straight to working a job)

4. Apprenticeship (simultaneous work/learn a skilled trade)

5. Internship (very short term -- usually 2-6 months; temporary paid or unpaid work in a field of high interest; usually with idea of it leading into 4-year college)

6. Gap Year (short term -- usually 3-12 months; travel, volunteering, work, ministry work, etc. -- specified goals, for specified length of time)

7. Community College (either certificate or 2-year degree then to work; or, take classes that will transfer to 4-year university)

8. Distance Learning (working towards college a little at a time while doing other options through online college credit courses)

 

Most of these have the option of going back to school later -- although, the longer you wait to go, the more responsibilities and difficulties there are in doing so (need the current job to support house/family; not as much time for getting through school; may end up "dead-ending" or being "trapped" in a field or job; military service may cause emotional/physical issues that interfere...)

 

 

Some thoughts about this list:

 

1) The military is cutting back significantly and raising standards for all levels of recruits. It's not nearly the sure thing it was before, so be certain it "works" for the individual rather than planning on it as a sure thing. I've seen this become a problem for MANY at school who just assumed they would enlist after graduating. I'm not sure we have any going that route this year. Normal years there is a significant number.

 

2) One has to consider where the money is coming from to start the business and to stay in business until it turns a profit. This isn't as easy as it sounds for most people. IF the money is the same money that would have been used for a college education, what happens if the business fails? Statistics show most new businesses do fail, so it needs to be considered even if one is certain their business will beat the odds. When hubby started his business it didn't turn a profit for 18 months.

 

3) A great option if one can find a job that works for them (I'm not being sarcastic). There are several kids at school heading this route - generally having jobs already lined up due to connections (family, friends, been working there, etc). Make the connections before high school for the most security.

 

4) Hard to get into around here, but if one has the connections, definitely a viable path. One or two kids head that way annually from our area.

 

5) I have not seen that work in our area. Closer to civilization it might be easier.

 

6) Generally only for the wealthier who can afford it - which means it's almost non-existent around me. Then what happens after the gap year?

 

7) Awesome choice for some students. Generally less costly than for profit two year schools offering the same degree, but for far more $$.

 

8) I've seen this work well for older folks established in jobs and just needing the piece of paper, but not (personally) for those coming right from high school. I don't "see it all" though, so perhaps it's worth considering.

 

Around here (from ps) what I see the most (for non-college bound) are kids who opt to work right out of high school. Some stay working. Others get bored and then opt for community college to get job training or to start on a degree. The military used to be popular, but now (really recently) their standards have gotten a bit higher than our non-college bound kids tend to be, so it's not the "old reliable" path it used to be.

 

We happen to live in an area where manufacturing still is big. There's also a bit of retail and food service. For those who don't live in those areas, I think the pickings could be slimmer.

Edited March 29, 2012 by creekland

[Farmgirl70]

My kids are really normal. I love them to pieces and they each have their strengths and weaknesses. My oldest's SAT scores were fabulous in the English side of things, very average on the math side. My 2nd's PSAT scores were dismal, but we'll see how his SATs are. They would all be good students (not over the top probably). However, they are delightful people! I think they'll walk into the world ready to learn to do what they were made to do and they've had a meaningful education and time to pursue their interests. Today, I'll call it a success! (Tomorrow, I may be again full of doubt about what else we should've done :tongue_smilie:)

 

Incidentally, when we did Biology the first time with the older 2, I thought it was really useful! It really helps me out when we visit the doctor to better understand body function and systems. After having more life experience, I feel like the principles of Biology are really useful!

[Trilliums]

Hm, I think numerous ordinary kids attend college, get financial aid and scholarships, do quite well, obtain 4 year degrees and then enter the work force or go on to graduate school. College education is not just for the straight A student. As others mentioned, hard work helps -- as does a stubborn attitude!

 

If you poke around on sites such as College Confidential (and I know the Ivy threads can be real headache generators) you will find threads on college choices for the non-straight-A student.

 

I do see value in a 2 year AA degree that results in a young adult prepared to enter the work force. But, students need to be aware of realistic job possibilities for their degree programs, be it for an AA, BS or beyond. Some Bachelor degrees provide an easier gateway to a job; engineering comes to mind. Other degree programs seem to primarily prepare a student for graduate school (I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing, but I do believe it should be considered before a student commits to a degree program). Across all the possible situations, spanning from going into the work force directly from high school to obtaining advanced degrees, one does face the possibility of unemployment.

 

The comments on not just checking a box throughout high school definitely resonate with me. We have had many family discussions about the nature of college classes versus high school as well as how to gain the most from what you need to do in order to fulfill graduation requirements.

 

When my boys were 7th into 8th grade, they did not know what they wanted to do (or they considered many different possibilities) and they had little inkling of what obtaining a college degree involved. DH works at a Univ. and he and I have graduate degrees, so the kids have this exposure and we have talked about it to them. Nonetheless, it is only the past year and a half that this awareness has grown in them. Older DS started asking so many questions about the process sw we sat down and went over many issues: different types of degrees, college admission processes, test score issues, tuition, financial aid, scholarships, career possibilities for different areas of study, etc. Over the years these subject have arisen from our basic discussions, but both kids appreciated having the info condensed into a family talk.

[Lori D.]

Thanks for adding thoughts and perspective, Creekland. What *positives* are you finding in your own research for your DC, or in the experiences of others? Sounds like location, connections, and what's available play a role in all this for your situation... So, that raises another question for this thread: are our DC willing to move to areas with more potential?? (And are we parents willing to let them? :tongue_smilie:) I don't think there is any magic "one size fits all" solution -- it does seem to me from the experiences I am seeing locally that it is a different unique solution for each student... Below are more ideas to add the possibilities for post-high school options...

 

 

 

1) [Military] The military is cutting back significantly and raising standards for all levels of recruits. It's not nearly the sure thing it was before.

 

 

Agreed. Best as with ANY post-high school option it to plan ahead, if at all possible. Participation in high school cadet programs can increase the chance of being accepted into the military:

- Civil Air Patrol (teen U.S. Air Force auxiliary -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- U.S. Naval Sea Cadets (teen Navy prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- Junior ROTC (teen Air Force prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- U.S. Army Junior ROTC (teen Army prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

 

Also consider these as a stepping stone to the Military, or for training and contacts that can open doors to apprenticeships, jobs, college -- even future scholarships:

- Coast Guard (or, their service academy)

- Merchant Marines)

- National Guard

- the Reserves (Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines)

 

 

 

2) and 3) [start Working / Start Own Business] A great option if one can find a job that works for them (I'm not being sarcastic) ... One has to consider where the money is coming from to start the business and to stay in business until it turns a profit.

 

 

Not all businesses require large capital outlay, but can with a very modest investment be self-taught and are much more of a time investment, and building a clientele; I know a number of young people who have successfully started their own businesses:

- wedding/event planner

- desktop publishing/graphic design

- shoot/edit wedding videos

- swim coach

- install computer systems

- web site design

- yard/landscape maintenance service

- pool maintenance service

 

Are they making a ton of money? No. But most were able to meet their expenses AND pay for college or whatever their future goals were. And they learned a TON of great experience that will look VERY attractive on future job applications or scholarship applications. If a student is interested in this route, check out the Small Business Administration (info, tips, mentorships, local offices, grants/loans). In addition, many cities have local business associations to help those just starting out. Related ideas: what about a partnership? Or a franchise? (Obviously each option has advantages/disadvantages to think thru carefully.)

 

 

 

4) [Apprenticeships] Hard to get into around here, but if one has the connections, definitely a viable path.

 

 

Again, how about researching online at both the city, state/regional, and national level for leads into this option. To get you started: U.S. Dept. of Labor Office of Apprenticeships.

 

Also, if there is a particular area of interest, search for local branches of that trade's national organization. For example, a quick google search on "electrician apprenticeships" turned up this website, which lists 3 organizations which sponsor apprenticeships:

- National Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee (NJATC)

- National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA)

- International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)

From there, you could google search for branches of those organizations in your area and try and set up something that way...

 

 

 

5) [internships] I have not seen that work in our area. Closer to civilization it might be easier.

 

 

Internships are definitely trickier. Sites that came up in a quick google search as a starting point and act as an internship Marketplace

- Internships

- Internship Programs

- Dream Careers: Internships

- Monster College: Summer Internships

- College Recruiter

 

Locally, for business internships, look at big companies that might benefit from free labor -- and in exchange give the student experience, a good reference, a "first shot" at job openings... University dept. internships are usually reserved for students who are already in the midst of their studies in that field; but some have special summer programs for high school students -- yes, usually they require the student to pay for attending the program, but these can also be a way of getting a "foot in the door" if the student is really interested in a particular degree (which can potentially translate into a job or scholarship since the people in that program would now know the student).

 

 

 

6) [Gap Year] Generally only for the wealthier who can afford it - which means it's almost non-existent around me. Then what happens after the gap year?

 

 

I disagree; from the research I was doing, many students who travel in the gap year are WORKING to earn expenses along the way (temp work, fruit picker, au pair, longer commitment on a cruise ship, etc.) -- that, too, is an incredible maturing opportunity. Or, if students were going on a short-term mission as part of their Gap Year, they work/save, and/or raise support money.

 

- AmeriCorps -- volunteer work with paid room & board for 8 months, often learning trade skills in the process, and come back home with a $4000 credit towards college

- National Civilian Conservation Corps

- Projects Abroad

- Peace Corps

- Passport

- Adventures in Missions

- Youth Quest

 

 

As for what do you do after a Gap Year: There's a very good chance that during the Gap Year the student has made contacts or learned of opportunities for stepping into the next stage of life. Some Gap Year experiences earned the student money or credit which the student can use towards college, starting a business, or whatever their next step is. Part of the point of the Gap Year is to set goals to accomplish and to have experiences that will help the student decide what comes after. My understanding is that a true Gap Year is NOT a mega freebie vacation...

 

- Gap Year

- Planet Gap Year

- USA Gap Year Fairs

 

 

7)[Community College] and 8) [Distance Learning] I've seen this work well for older folks established in jobs and just needing the piece of paper, but not (personally) for those coming right from high school.

 

 

Older DS graduated last year with a young lady who spent the last 2 years of homeschool high school earning her BA through College Plus. Another homeschooler (11th grade) is currently in the midst of doing the same thing. Many homeschool high schoolers already do online courses and/or dual enrollment at the CC, so why not distance learning after high school graduation? :) Here's an article on distance learning with great tips and links to resources

 

 

Just adding some encouragement and extra resources to research those alternative options! BEST of luck to all! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Lori D.
added links

[Lori D.]

Thanks for this good, practical reminder, Trilliums! Wonderful points throughout! :)

 

 

Just adding on that this past thread had great ideas for the kinds of extracurricular involvement that often leads to scholarships and college acceptance -- that students don't have to have stellar academics, athletics or special talents. :)

[Robin in DFW]

Thanks for all this great information.

 

Once again, you have gone above and beyond...

 

Robin

[Lori D.]

Thanks for all this great information.

 

Once again, you have gone above and beyond...

 

Robin

 

 

Hey, just sharing some resources I've been collecting for doing a session on alternatives to 4-year college to do with my homeschool group. Thanks so much for your comment, Robin -- that makes me feel like I'm on the right track! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[creekland]

Thanks for adding thoughts and perspective, Creekland. What *positives* are you finding in your own research for your DC, or in the experiences of others? Sounds like location, connections, and what's available play a role in all this for your situation... So, that raises another question for this thread: are our DC willing to move to areas with more potential?? (And are we parents willing to let them? :tongue_smilie:) I don't think there is any magic "one size fits all" solution -- it does seem to me from the experiences I am seeing locally that it is a different unique solution for each student...

 

Well, my kids are going to 4 year schools. I'll freely admit bias when it comes to my own, plus they are all academically capable and eager to go. Were either of the latter two not true, I'd re-evaluate.

 

However, there are plenty of students from my high school who do not go to 4 year schools due to lack of academic ability, lack of financial ability, or lack of desire, EVERY year (for the past 13) I ask students what their plans are after graduating and enjoy sharing their plans and ideas with them. We live in a solid blue collar area (less than 25% in our county have bachelor's degrees or higher and many of those live outside our school district). My thoughts are based upon their experiences and plans.

 

 

Participation in high school cadet programs can increase the chance of being accepted into the military:

- Civil Air Patrol (teen U.S. Air Force auxiliary -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- U.S. Naval Sea Cadets (teen Navy prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- Junior ROTC (teen Air Force prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

- U.S. Army Junior ROTC (teen Army prep -- leadership, scholarships, etc.)

These do not exist in our area. ;)

 

Also consider these as a stepping stone to the Military, or for training and contacts that can open doors to apprenticeships, jobs, college -- even future scholarships:

- Coast Guard (or, their service academy)

- Merchant Marines)

- National Guard

- the Reserves (Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines)

We do have some who join the National Guard or Reserves while still in high school, but again, I don't recall any in this past year doing so (I don't see ALL the students). I do know students who planned on joining the military, but weren't able to due to higher recruiting standards than in the past.

 

 

Not all businesses require large capital outlay, but can with a very modest investment be self-taught and are much more of a time investment, and building a clientele; I know a number of young people who have successfully started their own businesses:

- wedding/event planner

- desktop publishing/graphic design

- shoot/edit wedding videos

- swim coach

- install computer systems

- web site design

- yard/landscape maintenance service

- pool maintenance service

 

Are they making a ton of money? No. But most were able to meet their expenses AND pay for college or whatever their future goals were. And they learned a TON of great experience that will look VERY attractive on future job applications or scholarship applications. If a student is interested in this route, check out the Small Business Administration (info, tips, mentorships, local offices, grants/loans). In addition, many cities have local business associations to help those just starting out. Related ideas: what about a partnership? Or a franchise? (Obviously each option has advantages/disadvantages to think thru carefully.)

Ok, I had visions more of the latter where real money is needed and plans were to be able to 100% support a family, etc, not just a quick way to pay for single living expenses and/or college bills. Some can do this from former jobs, but only after they have built up a solid business. Those I know who have tried to start businesses around here generally have "average" success rates (meaning about 90% fail). It can work for the right person and that person generally shows the skills needed throughout high school rather than being one who "just decides on a whim" to do so. Add tattoo artist as possibilities. I know a student heading out to do that and really think he will be successful. He's an all around great chap with great artistic talent.

 

Again, how about researching online at both the city, state/regional, and national level for leads into this option. To get you started: U.S. Dept. of Labor Office of Apprenticeships.

 

Also, if there is a particular area of interest, search for local branches of that trade's national organization. For example, a quick google search on "electrician apprenticeships" turned up this website, which lists 3 organizations which sponsor apprenticeships:

- National Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee (NJATC)

- National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA)

- International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)

From there, you could google search for branches of those organizations in your area and try and set up something that way...

Since we're in such a high blue collar area, if you want to get "in" with one of these you'd better be related to someone already in. Our neighbor is in and he filled us in on nepotism details when he was getting his boys in. The odds of someone unrelated getting in (in our area) are slim to nil. It's a great path for those who can do it. In a less blue collar area, I could envision a need, but not in our area.

 

Internships are definitely trickier. Sites that came up in a quick google search as a starting point and act as an internship Marketplace

- Internships

- Internship Programs

- Dream Careers: Internships

- Monster College: Summer Internships

- College Recruiter

 

Locally, for business internships, look at big companies that might benefit from free labor -- and in exchange give the student experience, a good reference, a "first shot" at job openings... University dept. internships are usually reserved for students who are already in the midst of their studies in that field; but some have special summer programs for high school students -- yes, usually they require the student to pay for attending the program, but these can also be a way of getting a "foot in the door" if the student is really interested in a particular degree (which can potentially translate into a job or scholarship since the people in that program would now know the student).

I don't know of anyone who has done these.

 

I disagree; from the research I was doing, many students who travel in the gap year are WORKING to earn expenses along the way (temp work, fruit picker, au pair, longer commitment on a cruise ship, etc.) -- that, too, is an incredible maturing opportunity. Or, if students were going on a short-term mission as part of their Gap Year, they work/save, and/or raise support money.

 

- AmeriCorps -- volunteer work with paid room & board for 8 months, often learning trade skills in the process, and come back home with a $4000 credit towards college

- National Civilian Conservation Corps

- Projects Abroad

- Peace Corps

- Passport

- Adventures in Missions

- Youth Quest

I don't know of anyone who has done these. Some do Mormon missions and I lose track of them afterward, but I don't really consider that the same thing. I recall a couple of non-Mormons doing similarly, but again, lost track after they left.

 

Those who can't pay for college and plan to work first do just that - locally - not elsewhere unless they have family elsewhere and move there to work first. (Again, I'm ONLY talking about my area.)

 

Otherwise, those not going to 4 year schools often enter trade schools (for profit - can't say I recommend them so much, but many head that way), community college (definitely a good path for the right person - often offering the same degrees as trade schools, but at a much lower cost) or work. Some possibilities here include cosmetology, cooking, EMT/fire, nursing, Autocad or other drafting, diesel mechanics, welding, and more. The military used to be a common option, but is getting more difficult to get into.

 

Then there are those with no plans. It often doesn't go so well for them. I strongly suggest people have a plan to do something, then be open to change plans when/if they see something better. It's common for people to start working, then end up at community college, but then they are more focused on what they want. It's good for them to wait until they are more focused IMO. My nephew went the diesel mechanic route. ;)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

Also consider these as a stepping stone to the Military, or for training and contacts that can open doors to apprenticeships, jobs, college -- even future scholarships:

- Coast Guard (or, their service academy)

- Merchant Marines)

- National Guard

- the Reserves (Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines)

 

 

 

I liked your long post. It did a great job of reminding that there are a lot of potential paths to chase down.

 

But I did want to correct the impression that the above programs were "stepping stones" to the military.

 

The Coast Guard is a highly professional organization that within some fields meets or exceeds the training and readiness of the Navy. And where the military trains for potential operations, the Coast Guard is out doing its actual mission most of the time. (Not implying that they don't train, just that they are 'game on' most of the time when they are underway.)

 

Merchant Marines is in many ways a very demanding profession. Many of the people I've known who were 3rd mates were academically well trained. The path to being an engineer or a ship's master often includes a degree in engineering and a facility with math and mechanics. Given how much of the world's merchant fleets are filled by hard working sailors from other countries, I'm not sure there is high demand for Americans unless they are prepared to work quite hard.

 

The Reserves and National Guard programs can be both rewarding and useful. But they may also result in recall (including involuntary recall) and deployment. I don't think of them as stepping stones, because in many ways they are the military.

 

My general recommendation is not to join the reserves unless you will be content serving lengthy periods on active duty. If it should ever come down to a conflict between reserve recall and other personal priorities (other job, college classes, family priorities) you could end up having to process our of the reserves or having to execute the military orders whether you really wanted to or not.

 

(I went into labor with Cauliflower while having several phone conversations explaining to my reserve supervisors why I didn't think I was available for deployment to Bosnia 4 weeks later. I eventually left the reserves a few years short of retirement because the predicted wave of involuntary recalls from inactive reserves would have dispersed our family to 2-3 different continents. Joining the Reserves should be done eyes wide open.)

 

As for using them as a pathway into full time regular active duty, that would be worth discussing with a recruiter. In the past various services have used augmentation boards to control the flow in and out of active duty or regular commissions.

[Nan in Mass]

...It's common for people to start working, then end up at community college, but then they are more focused on what they want. It's good for them to wait until they are more focused IMO. My nephew went the diesel mechanic route. ...;)

 

My oldest's friends are now about 25. Most didn't go to college straight out of high school. Some worked out of the country and then went to college knowing what they wanted to do. Some worked in the trades (for family friend or relative), tried college, and then went back to the trades. They are doing well and living on their own, with families of their own. Everyone else I mention from here on out is living with their parents. I have to say that in about half the cases, the parents are like us - happy to have an extended family situation going. It is hard to tell in that case whether the youngster is actually "making it" as an adult. A few have made it through college. Some tried community college straight out of high school, since it seemed easier than finding a job, but dropped or flunked out. Some worked for local retail. Of those, only a few are still steadily doing that. They have plans to take college classes and work part time. A few went to work for landscapers. Of those, one is doing well, but his first love was music and he suppliments his income at night with that. The job is just a job and he doesn't expect more from it than house-money. One worked as a nurse's assistant - heartwrenching work for almost no money. One had his own business in high school, tried college to please his parents, quit and happily returned to his own business. A few have had jobs gotten by family members that paid more than minimum wage. A few have worked a variety of minimum wage jobs that didn't last and are now wondering when their lives are going to begin. A few are "lost", probably forever.

 

Those are not good statistics for not going to college. One in six or eight is what I would call stable and adult at 25 years old. (And remember, some of those are living at home in a long-term extended family housing situation. They don't all make enough money for living on their own by themselves (no sharing).)

 

If you add in the friends of my other two younger sons, you get a slightly different picture, one that includes people who match Lori D's internship/travel/au pair/volunteer scenario. They are taking advantage of this childless stage of life to explore the world and make it a better place. Are they self-supporting adults? No. Are they accomplishing something? Yes. Are they happy with what they are doing? Yes. Some of them may even do this well into their thirties.

 

Nan

Edited March 30, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[brandigirl]

Wow this is an amazing thread! I wish I could have followed my passions instead of being on a rigorous college track. But its to late to change that as for you dc just remember colleges don't care where you start its were you are at the end of the four years. They like to see growth and even more importantly the potential for more growth. Its hard to not compare yourself to others even though I am taking 5 AP's and leading a really odd lifestyle if I would see someone taking 6 AP's and president of the French club I would feel defeated. Its hard to feel good enough when everyone around you is doing so well. I have been college crazy since 7th grade always thinking Stanford Stanford Stanford because of their med program and now I keep seeing these quaint liberal arts colleges and thinking would it really be that bad to relax my under grad years? :confused: