Uh-oh, I think I missed a chunk of basic language arts (MCT-related)

[melissel]

Can I get some input on how to find/add in what I missed?

 

DD9 did GWG 1 and 2 (FLL made her run and hide), and then we switched over to MCT LA (Island level). She had retained almost nothing from GWG *sigh* We're about halfway through the Island level, and although we have both learned so much from the program, and she's enjoying it immensely, I'm starting to realize that we're missing things in our language arts repertoire. For example, she wrote a short story the other day that had no paragraph breaks at all. When I mentioned it, she said, "What are paragraphs?" :001_huh: I was looking at a sentence that she's supposed to analyze today and I realized that she has no idea what a helping verb is, and I'm certain she remembers almost nothing about verb tenses from GWG.

 

I don't see anything that teaches this kind of nitty-gritty foundational language knowledge in the MCT materials. Am I missing it in there? What do I do now? Should I jettison MCT and focus on Voyages in English, or something else? Would it be appropriate to use FLL 4 (not having used FLL 1-3) for a year and then go back to MCT?

 

Ugh, I thought I was all set for next year. Now I'm spinning in circles. Any advice is most welcome.

[Crimson Wife]

MCT designed his program to be used in a PS setting. It is clear that he assumed students would be totally familiar with basic paragraph formatting and mechanics by the time they started "island". That is why it is not as complete as grammar programs specifically designed for HSers like FLL.

 

I like EPS' The Paragraph Book series for teaching the basics of how to write a paragraph. Those do cover some grammar as well.

[Pen]

We are using a bunch of different things, so I am not sure about your situation.

 

However, I think you should take a look at the MCT paragraph (Town) level materials samples and see if they will cover paragraphs.

[Pen]

PS Also, I think paragraphs comes up more as an issue in writing and is more covered in writing (composition) programs--less so in grammar, which is more about parts of speech, clauses, phrases, sentences, agreement, conjugations, declensions, and so on.

[Penelope]

This is one of the gripes some people (me!) have with MCT. It is a good grammar, vocabulary, and poetics program, not (IMO) such a good writing program.

 

Paragraph Town does have a nice approach to explaining what a paragraph is, and the different types, but there is no explicit writing instruction.

For that, there are various basic paragraph writing books that you could go over. Paragraph Writing Made Easy is one we have, another is by Evan Moor. But your dd may or may not need that; I looked at the books to see how they approached it but never used them. My ds got it just by talking about paragraphs from books together and going over them in his writing, where we talked about what his topic was and what would or would not belong in a particular paragraph. Reading Paragraph Town was good, too, but not necessary IMO.

[Elfknitter.#]

I listened to MCT speak at a conference and loved him, but I still don't "get" him on the writing thing.

 

I have not heard him speak. What's his take on writing?

[gardening momma]

Can I get some input on how to find/add in what I missed?

 

DD9 did GWG 1 and 2 (FLL made her run and hide), and then we switched over to MCT LA (Island level). She had retained almost nothing from GWG *sigh* We're about halfway through the Island level, and although we have both learned so much from the program, and she's enjoying it immensely, I'm starting to realize that we're missing things in our language arts repertoire. For example, she wrote a short story the other day that had no paragraph breaks at all. When I mentioned it, she said, "What are paragraphs?" :001_huh: I was looking at a sentence that she's supposed to analyze today and I realized that she has no idea what a helping verb is, and I'm certain she remembers almost nothing about verb tenses from GWG.

 

I don't see anything that teaches this kind of nitty-gritty foundational language knowledge in the MCT materials. Am I missing it in there? What do I do now? Should I jettison MCT and focus on Voyages in English, or something else? Would it be appropriate to use FLL 4 (not having used FLL 1-3) for a year and then go back to MCT?

 

Ugh, I thought I was all set for next year. Now I'm spinning in circles. Any advice is most welcome.

Was this an MCT assignment to analyze a sentence and write the short story?

[melissel]

Was this an MCT assignment to analyze a sentence and write the short story?

 

No, the short story was just on her own, and the sentence was just a sentence from Practice Island--they weren't related.

 

Thanks everyone. You're right that the paragraph thing is more writing related. I was just so startled to see that she had no idea what they were! I'll have to look back over her older writing to see if she's not ever used them before. I like to think I would have noticed!

 

As for the more basic grammar/LA issue, I'm not sure what I should do. I've always liked the look (though not the price) of VIE, but I think it's spread across too many years at this point. And I'd rather use FLL if I can, but I know the lower levels will make her crazy. I need a one-year intensive sort of thing. Does that exist?

[gardening momma]

Does MCT cover grammar? One post leads me to think it does, and another makes it sound like it doesn't. We're planning to use MCT starting next year.

[SunnyDays]

Does MCT cover grammar? One post leads me to think it does, and another makes it sound like it doesn't. We're planning to use MCT starting next year.

 

I've only used Island, so bear that in mind...

 

Yes, MCT covers grammar. It covers parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases, and clauses. It goes deeper in later levels with additional kinds of phrases and other more advanced topics.

 

What it *doesn't* seem to cover are the littler things... who's vs. whose, for example (I guess we'd call that usage). Antonyms and synonyms are another example of what's not there. All the bits and pieces will need to come from elsewhere. Also, MCT uses "four level analysis" instead of diagramming. (I heard it *very* briefly touches on diagramming in one of the upper levels.) I personally think the four level method is great, but if you want your child to have a good understanding of diagramming for later courses or just personal knowledge, you'd need to add that in from somewhere.

 

We're quite happy using MCT, but I'm considering adding in something like Abeka's Language A for additional "other" grammar topics and additional writing instruction and mechanics. I think most people who use MCT do supplement at least some area. MCT is a great program, it really approaches language from a different angle. I'm just not convinced that it's complete, at least not to the extent I want for my son.

 

Hope that helps a bit...

Edited March 25, 2012 by SunnyDays

[MomatHWTK]

Would something like this help you fill in the gaps?

http://www.ck12.org/flexbook/book/2513

 

Someone else on the boards shared this link recently too:

http://macmillanmh.com/languagearts/2001/teacher/teachres/workbooks.html

Edited March 25, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[EKS]

I don't see anything that teaches this kind of nitty-gritty foundational language knowledge in the MCT materials. Am I missing it in there? What do I do now? Should I jettison MCT and focus on Voyages in English, or something else? Would it be appropriate to use FLL 4 (not having used FLL 1-3) for a year and then go back to MCT?

 

 

 

This is correct. MCT doesn't teach this, or many other things that are integral to a complete LA education. This is one reason why I used Hake with my son this year after using Island and Town materials for the last two years.

 

I think that MCT is amazing, but it is anything but complete. Using a more traditional LA curriculum alongside or alternating with MCT is a solid choice.

Edited March 25, 2012 by EKS

[acrosier]

The next level in MCT is called Paragraph Town and then there is Essay Voyage.

We also use Writing With Ease.

[Tracy]

I am so :( about this. I really want to use MCT, but I don't want to complicate my life with having to supplement it. To make matters worse, dd is just not a worksheet kind of gal, and I thought that MCT was our answer to that issue. *sigh*

[EKS]

His take seems to be that he thinks most 5th graders can be doing serious academic writing (5 paragraph essays). And then shortly after that they should be doing longer works with formal citations.

Like that's not a big deal. Granted, he wrote materials with gifted students in mind and he does have experience with gifted students. But really?

 

 

I, frankly, don't think that he has ever implemented his ideas for younger students, in particular, with younger students. My son is highly gifted in LA (not just regular gifted which is what MCT targets) and there is *no way* he could do what's expected in Essay Voyage at age 10 (5th grade).

[melissel]

I am so :( about this. I really want to use MCT, but I don't want to complicate my life with having to supplement it. To make matters worse, dd is just not a worksheet kind of gal, and I thought that MCT was our answer to that issue. *sigh*

 

I'm sorry :( I just bought the PDFs of FLL3. However, I will still say that the MCT method is extremely compelling, and DD and I learned A LOT via the GI books. Even if I had realized that I'd need to supplement, I'm not regretting that we're using MCT for grammar and language/vocab, and I'll still keep going on to the next level. His writing is so engaging, and even when I was lost in the soup, DD knew exactly what he was getting at and understood how to use the information he was providing.

 

Honestly, I think the things that are missing are pretty easily learned, especially at my DD's age. I think that if you're creative, you could use a program like FLL3 and work through it orally and in a fun way, and the information will still be transmitted. I think MCT's program instills much more than just your basic understanding of the difference between declarative and imperative sentences (one other thing I realized we hadn't covered!), and it still has a lot of value for that reason alone. But like Kai said, it looks like it's best alternated with some other program, which is what I think I'm going to do.

 

I do understand people's reservations about the writing, though, and I had already planned to rely on other sources for that.

Edited March 25, 2012 by melissel

[melissel]

Would something like this help you fill in the gaps?

http://www.ck12.org/flexbook/book/2513

 

Someone else on the boards shared this link recently too:

http://macmillanmh.com/languagearts/2001/teacher/teachres/workbooks.html

 

Thanks for those!

[SunnyDays]

I'm sorry :( I just bought the PDFs of FLL3. However, I will still say that the MCT method is extremely compelling, and DD and I learned A LOT via the GI books. Even if I had realized that I'd need to supplement, I'm not regretting that we're using MCT for grammar and language/vocab, and I'll still keep going on to the next level. His writing is so engaging, and even when I was lost in the soup, DD knew exactly what he was getting at and understood how to use the information he was providing.

 

Honestly, I think the things that are missing are pretty easily learned, especially at my DD's age. I think that if you're creative, you could use a program like FLL3 and work through it orally and in a fun way, and the information will still be transmitted. I think MCT's program instills much more than just your basic understanding of the difference between declarative and imperative sentences (one other thing I realized we hadn't covered!), and it still has a lot of value for that reason alone. But like Kai said, it looks like it's best alternated with some other program, which is what I think I'm going to do.

 

I do understand people's reservations about the writing, though, and I had already planned to rely on other sources for that.

 

I agree with this... I think MCT gives you a very deep understanding of the main parts... it's very much a "depth" program as opposed to a "breadth" program. DS just really seemed to "get" this as well.

 

You know, I'd recommend to almost anyone to get Grammar Island and just read it to their kiddos and talk about it. It just seems to really produce an understanding. But the whole program may not be a good fit for everyone, and again, it's probably not complete enough for anyone. I think we're still going to try the Town level next year but I'm not sure how MUCH of the program we'll use.

 

By the way Melissa... I just have to say that I *love* your siggy. There's simply no one funnier than Sheldon Cooper! :D

[melissel]

By the way Melissa... I just have to say that I *love* your siggy. There's simply no one funnier than Sheldon Cooper! :D

 

Thanks :D You are right about that! I included it there because it makes me smile every single time I read it :lol:

[Trish]

Can't you just explain what a paragraph is? Why does it have to be so complicated?

[melissel]

Can't you just explain what a paragraph is? Why does it have to be so complicated?

 

Of course I can. I already did. But that's not the only thing missing, by far.

[Dawn E]

Does MCT cover grammar? One post leads me to think it does, and another makes it sound like it doesn't. We're planning to use MCT starting next year.

 

I think MCT does a wonderful job of introducing and explaining the parts of speech. However, other aspects--mechanics and usage--are not covered (in the early levels) like they are in more traditional grammar texts for those levels. Personally I choose to use it as a supplement to our main program--R&S. One could also simply supplement MCT with something that added mechanics and usage. It's an expensive supplement, but I am convinced it is worth it. It's not perfect, but, what it does well, it does better than anything out there.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Dawn E

[Roadrunner]

His take seems to be that he thinks most 5th graders can be doing serious academic writing (5 paragraph essays).

 

 

 

This is PS standard. At least in CA thy expect a paragraph in first grade and a 5 paragraph essay in fifth. It shows that his target audience was PS.

[FairProspects]

I like EPS' The Paragraph Book series for teaching the basics of how to write a paragraph. Those do cover some grammar as well.

 

Can this be used younger than the target audience as well?

[EKS]

This is PS standard. At least in CA thy expect a paragraph in first grade and a 5 paragraph essay in fifth. It shows that his target audience was PS.

 

PS doesn't expect an essay of the kind discussed in EV. They expect a 5 paragraph piece of fluff: Intro, 3 body paragraphs with topic sentences, and a conclusion. That's not what MCT is going for.

[Crimson Wife]

Can this be used younger than the target audience as well?

 

Absolutely. It is designed for remedial use in middle school but can be done by any student working at about a 3rd or 4th grade level. One of the things I like most about it is that it doesn't require a lot of physical writing, so it is great for students whose fine motor skills lag their cognitive ability to understand the material being taught.

[Penelope]

I, frankly, don't think that he has ever implemented his ideas for younger students, in particular, with younger students. My son is highly gifted in LA (not just regular gifted which is what MCT targets) and there is *no way* he could do what's expected in Essay Voyage at age 10 (5th grade).

 

I wondered about that, too. My understanding was that he taught high school and some very gifted middle school (7th-8th) students.

[SunnyDays]

I'm bumping this thread back up with a couple questions!! :)

 

So, I think the consensus is that even though MCT is a fabulous program, it needs a bit extra to really cover FULL grammar, mechanics, usage, and writing. That said, what else would be a good option to add?

 

I saw that Dawn said she uses R&S. We've looked at that. I was also wondering about Abeka?? DS will be in 4th and Language A looks like it has the missing pieces. Would that be TOO much??

 

I think I've seen people say they use GWG and WWW as these "missing links" as well.

 

Also... are most of you using MCT every year? Or planning to alternate? (I mentioned that idea to my son and it was a no-go, so supplementing it will be, LOL!!)

 

Just pondering as I plan for next year...

[melissel]

I'm bumping this thread back up with a couple questions!! :)

 

So, I think the consensus is that even though MCT is a fabulous program, it needs a bit extra to really cover FULL grammar, mechanics, usage, and writing. That said, what else would be a good option to add?

 

I saw that Dawn said she uses R&S. We've looked at that. I was also wondering about Abeka?? DS will be in 4th and Language A looks like it has the missing pieces. Would that be TOO much??

 

I think I've seen people say they use GWG and WWW as these "missing links" as well.

 

Also... are most of you using MCT every year? Or planning to alternate? (I mentioned that idea to my son and it was a no-go, so supplementing it will be, LOL!!)

 

Just pondering as I plan for next year...

 

Well, I bought FLL3 to cover some of it with DD9. We'll move quickly or skip through the parts we don't need to hammer on and focus on the gaps it can fill for us instead. And we're in level 3 of Writing with Ease now, so we're going to go on to Writing with Skill next. We'll use the Island Level next year as well. I won't rely on it for writing, but I think the grammar and vocabulary aspects are valuable.

 

FWIW to you :D I just started pinning down the coming year too. Thankfully, we're just moving up a level in most things, but I have a few wild cards to figure out. Good luck!

[SunnyDays]

Wild cards - I like that. :) We've got several of those, LOL!!

 

I've looked at FLL and I'm not sure it's our style. I might give it another look though... sounds like you have a good plan for your DD!

[LAinVA]

I thought I was set for LA next year. Now I am not so sure. For my dd (3rd grade) I was going to use MCT Island, Winning With Writing, Spelling Power, Reading Detective Beginning, StartWrite for cursive, and lots of library book for literature. Will I be covered with this, or should I add something else?

[StephanieZ]

I think MCT does a wonderful job of introducing and explaining the parts of speech. However, other aspects--mechanics and usage--are not covered (in the early levels) like they are in more traditional grammar texts for those levels. Personally I choose to use it as a supplement to our main program--R&S. One could also simply supplement MCT with something that added mechanics and usage. It's an expensive supplement, but I am convinced it is worth it. It's not perfect, but, what it does well, it does better than anything out there.

 

What levels have you used? Beginning in Town, MCT covers mechanics and usage a great deal. I.e., the punctuation exercises in the second half of Paragraph Town are all about mechanics. Usage errors are brought up here and there all through the middle-later levels of MCT. (i.e. things like whose/who's/etc, they're/ their, etc) He sneaks these kind of fine points (and more obscure/advanced grammar points such as today's new thing: Object Complement, snuck into Sentence 69 in 4Practice level 1) MCT has not provided a comprehensive reference (no indexes, as frustrates my ds), but rather has snuck in a vast array of important points all over the place in his texts. This sneaky approach is one reason why I urge people not to skip any of the MCT books as they all intertwine and support eachother. (The poetry books are one thing I think COULD be used alone although I would NOT leave them out of any MCTLA program!)

 

I think the vast majority of the issues/concerns/limitations I see mentioned in this thread are not substatiated if you use complete levels of MCT for more than one or two years. MCT is a complete and progressive english program, and it builds deeper each year.

 

Yes, there are some obvious things that MCT doesn't spell out for you -- like what a paragraph is in the Island level. (However, he devotes and entire YEAR of the program, the 2nd year, to the mighty paragraph!) The program was designed to be taught by teachers of gifted kids' LA. I think he assumes they know things like that, and he would expect that teachers would organically teach those fundamentals if for some reason a gifted LA student entered 3rd grade w/o knowing what a paragraph was. It should take all of 3 seconds to teach a child who has read widely for a long time what a paragraph is, as they already KNOW what they are, but just don't know the name for it.

 

FWIW, I love MCT's writing approach. My dd9 is finishing up Town, and she has no problem at all with the writing assignments, including the 2 paragraph research paper last week. No MCT assignments should be handed off (to the vast majority of kids) as-is IMHO. Rather, the teacher/mom needs to coach the writer through the steps needed to reach the goals MCT assigns.

 

For instance, I have my olders (level 4) do outlines one week, first drafts the next, final drafts the next. I also make sure they get my approval on a thesis statement before proceeding with those three steps. When they have their first drafts done, I coach them to check them themselves for the various teaching points MCT assigned for that paper. I then have them check EACHOTHER's papers. THEN, I check the rough draft -- quick and dirty -- for basic errors/proof reading/etc. THEN, they re-edit and give me the final . . .

 

Another instance, for dd9's 2 paragraph research paper. I asked her about a topic . . . she chose a topic, with my coaching, that was narrow enough and simple enough to make a good little paper. I coached her on narrowing the topic. Then I helped her find resources -- looked in some books, looked online. Then she read on her own. Then we talked about it. Then she wrote her two paragraphs. And we talked some more about how to best arrange her ideas. (One of her paragraphs could better have been two . . . I pointed that out, and she agreed and understood.) Then she finished up and was done. Whole process was maybe 30-40 min of reading, 30-40 min of talking, and an hour or less of writing. She did a great job. She can't wait to write essays. She is already writing multiple paragraph little papers with beautiful paragraphs, great transitions, etc.

 

I am shocked at her precocious progress, but I now expect her to be more than ready for Voyage next year, 4th grade. I had expected to take a year break from MCT this year, but she insisted on doing Town. Likewise, she is already insisting on doing Essays next year, and based on her abilities so far, I will do it. Not all kids would be ready at this age, but some are.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Stephanie Z, thank you for that review and explanation of how you use the writing program! I'm guilty of having said I don't think MCT is a complete writing program, but the truth is, I don't know what I'm talking about! :tongue_smilie:

We've just finished Sentence Island, and it was great, but it wouldn't have worked as a stand-alone (i.e., if that was absolutely all I had done for writing). But we're just starting Towns, and haven't done PT yet, and so I should be more careful about saying what MCT "is" or "is not". It's useful to hear how different people are using the program, and IMO one of the things that makes it so great is that it is deep and rich enough to be used flexibly, and in a lot of different ways.

 

Not giving up WWS, but I will definitely approach PT with a *wide* open mind!

 

FWIW, I think SI was *fabulous*, but more as a grammar reinforcement, than as a writing program. But I'm excited to see what comes up in PT and EV.

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[SunnyDays]

Stephanie, thanks, I'm also glad for the upper level review! Only having used the Island level, it's hard to know what's coming up.

 

I do think we'll probabably always integrate additional writing into the curriculum, but... maybe I need to wait and see what all the Town level covers, and decide if I need to supplement from there??