Ray's Arithmetic users

[birchbark]

I'd like to hear from you! I'm interested in the Primary Arithmetic book. Who has used it? Do you like it? Why or why not? What does a typical day look like? Have you used Ruth Beechick's guide with it?

 

:bigear:

[justamouse]

I just bought both the guide and the math book and I *really* like them. If there is living math, this is it. I have YET to implement it-just been reading them so far.

 

I have read elsewhere that you need to read Manual of Methods which is free on googlebooks (so are rays, fwiw, so you can peruse them there).

[Already Gone]

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Edited September 18, 2022 by Already Gone

[k3bzr18]

Thank you for posting this! I was checking into this myself!

Hope for more responses!:lurk5:

Lynn

[Hunter]

I found the manual to be a lot like Waldorf and Strayer-Upton and it had a BIG impact on my math teaching philosophy! I have latched heavily onto the need to include whole-to-parts instruction, starting with this manual, and only AFTER reading it, looking further into the other 2 curriculums because they applied the same ideas. Lightbulbs were flashing all over my brain as I read it. It was life changing for me.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Hunter

[birchbark]

I keep feeling a pull towards Ray's for reasons too thread-derailing to go into right now.

 

 

I'm curious!

[justamouse]

I'm curious!

Me too!

[Hunter]

Me Three! Do tell.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I have used Ray's to pull out " stumped" questions for my math lovers' fun but haven't looked into using the whole curriculum. I just downloaded it.

[momma2three]

I have used Ray's to pull out " stumped" questions for my math lovers' fun but haven't looked into using the whole curriculum. I just downloaded it.

 

Is there a place to download it for free? I'd like to take a look at it before deciding whether to buy the hard copies. Isn't it in the public domain?

[Already Gone]

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Edited September 18, 2022 by Already Gone

[Kathleen in LV]

phroggies,

 

I took great interest in your thoughts. I have a 5 yo son. I purchased the Rays set several months ago because I was drawn to using an "older" approach and got a good deal on Ebay. I read through the first book, but didn't use it. We just kind of did our own thing for several months. We have since started MEP. I decided to start part way into Year 1, but we're going through it quickly. Much of it is review, but there are some good concepts I don't want to miss.

 

Now, my questions for you. Practically speaking, how do you utilize the Rays books? Are they a supplement to MEP, or are you thinking of just switching over? Do you have your son read the problems in Rays & copy them onto another sheet of paper? Do you work with him on Rays, or can he use it more independently? I know you just started, but I would appreciate any further insight you could provide because I generally agree with your ideas on approaching math.

[Already Gone]

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Edited September 18, 2022 by Already Gone

[momma2three]

Please stop apologizing for writing so much! I am seriously hanging on every word :) We are doing MEP and I really like it, but your concerns with it are resonating with me.

 

I've been interested in Ray's ever since I accidentally bought a reprint of the teacher's addition many many years ago (I still have no idea how it ended up in my basket, but I think it was meant to be!) and began reading it. A lot of it just seemed to make sense.

 

Thank you so much for writing out your thoughts (and if you have any more, PLEASE share!). I don't want my math fingers in too many pots, but at the same time I'm not 100% certain about any of the math curricula I've seen, so I have been looking for something to supplement MEP with. I also kind of like the idea of using both a cutting edge curriculum and an extremely old-fashioned one... it seems like two extremes! :D

 

If anyone else is interested, I found links to free online versions through this thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44972

[Mrs. A]

Thank you, phroggies, for your detailed replies. They were a big help to me as I evaluate where we want to go right now. I always prefer detail to short and concise. ;)

[Hunter]

Phroggies you are NOT writing too much!

 

I was reading through some google versions of Ray's again last night. I was struck by how much of what is in the manual is not evident in the 1st couple books. It looks like the part I am so drawn to was taught by the TEACHER not the book. In Strayer-Upton, I can actually see the methods presented in the student text.

[justamouse]

The danger of racing through MEP, I'm coming to think, is that he'll learn to do fancy concepts and puzzles but not really learn to think in a mathematical way. If that makes a lick of sense :). But Ray's--especially because of the word problems--will offer a wealth of practice but still encourage something greater than just mechanical recitation of the facts.

 

I heard a quotation in one of the CiRCE lectures last night to the effect that with practice, the hard becomes the easy, the easy becomes the natural, and the natural becomes the beautiful. Racing ahead will short-circuit that process. So that (in a nutshell :) ) is why I'm looking at using Ray's.

 

What an awesome answer-thank you so much for typing it all out.

[Kathleen in LV]

phroggies, thank you so much. And don't apologize for too much explanation -- it's what I was looking for. Your son sounds so much like mine, so all the information is really helpful.

 

I also plan on working through the summer, but our days are still light in workload, so I don't think it would be a big deal. Plus, if we skip a day here and there, I don't worry about it. I'm also not shooting for a particular goal in a certain amount of time - just proceding at whatever rate suits us. And mine gets really antsy as well, and, like you, I find myself being a "meanie" and asking him to be still when he is reciting something to me. But I mix things up - he enjoys throwing a ball back & forth when we do skip counting or when he's answering oral problems.

 

After posting my questions, I read through the arithmetic portion of "Manual of Methods", which was very interesting. After reading that & your post, I'm thinking of going back to near the beginning of Rays as well. I like the concept of being able to recognize groups of numbers without counting. We started out learning to add by counting, and my son will often use his fingers to add, and I'm now rethinking how best to address that situation.

 

If you have any additional thoughts in the future, please share. So many of us here are interested.

 

Thanks again!

[Hunter]

 

After posting my questions, I read through the arithmetic portion of "Manual of Methods", which was very interesting. After reading that & your post, I'm thinking of going back to near the beginning of Rays as well. I like the concept of being able to recognize groups of numbers without counting. We started out learning to add by counting, and my son will often use his fingers to add, and I'm now rethinking how best to address that situation.

 

 

It's a major light bulb moment reading that, isn't it?

[Already Gone]

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Edited September 17, 2022 by Already Gone

[mo2]

Can someone link me to where you are buying the guide and books?

[justamouse]

Can someone link me to where you are buying the guide and books?

 

You can buy them through Amazon, but I also posted free copies on Googlebooks for you to look at before you made the purchase if you wanted.

[mo2]

You can buy them through Amazon, but I also posted free copies on Googlebooks for you to look at before you made the purchase if you wanted.

 

Thanks. Is it the guide by Ruth Beechick that you all are talking about?

[justamouse]

Thanks. Is it the guide by Ruth Beechick that you all are talking about?

 

Yes, that too, but upthread I linked the Manual of Methods (free googlebook).

[Rosie_0801]

Hunter, do you have any specific experiences or practical advice on how to do this? It's a whole new world for me. And my 2.5 year-old is starting to count, so I'd like to do it differently this time. . .

 

:bigear:

 

My barely verbal almost 5 year old can only deal with numbers by counting. I'd leave the entire topic alone except she likes to count things. I can't imagine how else we could do this.

 

Rosie

[Hunter]

Waldorf Math African Style. Start on page 21. Using the body to learn about numbers.

 

Verses and pictures

 

More verses

 

Arithmetic villiage I really like the 10 gems going into a bag, and the 10 bags going into a treasure chest.

[Kathleen in LV]

It's a major light bulb moment reading that, isn't it?

 

It is, but it also has me wondering. How important is it for a child to not count when learning to add? (I mean, if it is almost impossible to fix, as phroggie noted, is my child eternally doomed to fail at math? :001_huh:)

 

Seriously, if he gains a good conceptual understanding (say, via MEP) and masters the drill & memory work suggested in Rays, wouldn't he have a pretty good mastery of math? I'm not sure I see the advantage of being able to recognize a random group of 9 buttons on a table without counting (other than as a really cool bar trick). I would appreciate further enlightenment as to why this is important.

 

Phroggies, you mentioned that your 6 yo also still uses his fingers sometimes. The teaching guide in Rays indicates that children initially need to go through a manipulative phase (and I've seen this in numerous other writings as well). I'm wondering if our sons are just not completely out of this phase, and if further practice & maturity will address the issue.

 

All opinions are welcome.

[Already Gone]

 

Quote

Edited September 18, 2022 by Already Gone

[Joyofsixreboot]

Rightstart has the kids identifying groups of five by sight. I don't know if it helped my kids but it helped me.

[Hunter]

I think it can be remediated in the home, much easier than in the school. The author of the eclectic manual was writing to young teachers with the purpose of indoctrinating them about the importance of teaching with the most efficient method possible. We are not the author's audience. I'm learning to read an author's words in context of who he is talking to, knowing that his word choices, emphasis and warnings are aimed at his target audience.

 

When we see the numbers, we see them grouped. 6 LOOKS like 1 and 5, 2 and 4, 3 and 3. Later on rearranging the numbers for mental math will be easier, when we have SEEN what 6 IS. Even as adults many of us, only know of numbers as small as 5-10 as THEORY. If THEORY starts at understanding what 5 is, then everything after that is theory and not totally applicable. That is a scary thought :-(

 

We are first generation homeschoolers. Few of us will reach the promised land. We do our best and then pass the baton to our kids and grandkids. When you graduate your children, you will probably have some gap time--as I am having now-- to study educational theory and new methods, that you will be able to offer your children to educate the grand babies.

 

Don't panic and obsess over everything your learn about the "best" way to teach. If you have time and desire, apply what you are learning. If you are getting overwhelmed, pull back and teach with the methods that are more familiar for NOW. We know how pitiful our educations were, but we are okay. I think everyone here is housed, has adequate nutrition and at least substandard but present medical care. Yes we WANT better for the next generations...but panicking and overstudying instead of BEING with that generation isn't going to benefit as much as a calm mommy and home.

 

So we read during our down time. We add little bits here and there as we are able. We think ahead to the next few generations. We work on their character and mental health FIRST. We LIVE, because none of us are promised a tomorrow.

[birchbark]

Thanks for all the posts. I thought I'd pop in here and mention that the reason I'm looking into Ray's is for reasons discussed on this thread.

[Already Gone]

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Edited August 26, 2022 by phroggies

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My eldest son used the first three Ray's books, and all of my boys used the Primary book before going on to any other formal math lessons.

 

Some of my best homeschool memories have to do with lisping four-year-olds, Ray's Primary math in my hand, and chalkboard, blocks, buttons, and muffin tins scattered across the rug.

 

And any kid who learns fractions with Ray's has learned fractions forevermore, amen.

[justamouse]

My eldest son used the first three Ray's books, and all of my boys used the Primary book before going on to any other formal math lessons.

 

Some of my best homeschool memories have to do with lisping four-year-olds, Ray's Primary math in my hand, and chalkboard, blocks, buttons, and muffin tins scattered across the rug.

 

And any kid who learns fractions with Ray's has learned fractions forevermore, amen.

 

That is very comforting to hear. I've still not implemented anything. We're going to finish up our curriculum for this year in a few weeks and I'm going to try Ray's Math over the summer.

[Hunter]

Those are some interesting articles. I am always interested in neuroplasticity. I have suffered some significant brain damage because of frequent uncontrolled seizures and malnutrition. The seizures have eased up a bit in the past couple months and for the first time in years, I'm healing and remediating, faster than I'm sustaining new damage. My writing abilities are almost normal now and my speech has improved. I still can't divide, but believe that will come back with work, and I'm honestly thankful to have lost the ability as it lead to my current fascination with primary maths.

 

All of this math theory is important and GOOD, and worth devoting time to as long as we are not neglecting the GREAT to do so. I have to constantly check myself and establish priorities, because it can be so hard not to obsess and jump on bandwagons and catastrophize, and lose perspective on what is really important.

 

It does take drill, lots of drill to master anything, so we need to be very wise about what we set out to master. Sometimes we teach our kids tricks. Those tricks can keep people off our backs and give us more room to teach in peace, so...I don't warn against them, as long as we are aware of what we are doing. Math and classical languages are the easiest place to prove to the world our child is getting a superior education. I too had a lousy education, but managed to somehow get my youngest and I through the first few chapters of a calculus book and most of the way through an ancient Greek grammar before the PTSD and poverty and just mess halted me in my tracks. I don't know if I would focus on the tricks again or not. It had it's pros and cons.

[kristinannie]

Y'all are very kind. I'll try tomorrow to post some "footnotes" in hopes that looking at the resources that influenced my thoughts on this might be helpful. I'd also love to hear what others think of them. In the meantime. . .

 

 

 

My son will still use his fingers every once in a while. I've always thought sufficient drill would "cure" it, but the Manual of Methods is making me think it's a perceptual problem at bottom. So I did a little experiment tonight--I randomly put groups of buttons down on the table and asked my son to tell me the number without counting. He seemed to stop being able to do so at around five. But here's the interesting thing--I tested myself as well, and the best I could do was six, and that was only if they were arranged in a nicely symmetrical way. My husband topped out around five as well. I'm really curious to see whether any of us can train ourselves not to do this (the MoM is not especially encouraging, either: "If the child once forms the habit of counting by ones. . . it will be almost impossible to correct his error).

 

I'm thinking tomorrow we'll start with a game (always a good strategy on Mondays, at least around here), wherein my son and I will compete to see who can establish the number of items in a random group the most quickly--then we'll "check," not by counting, but by splitting the group into smaller groups. Does that make sense?

 

Hunter, do you have any specific experiences or practical advice on how to do this? It's a whole new world for me. And my 2.5 year-old is starting to count, so I'd like to do it differently this time. . .

 

 

I have found that RS math is the best resource for teaching kids NOT to count by ones. I was having that same problem with my oldest (and my middle was starting as well). RS A is focused on teaching kids to count by 5's and 10's. Miquon also does this to a certain extent. That was the main reason I stopped using SM. It was instilling in him a need to count by ones.

 

I am so intrigued by Ray's Math. I saw it at the CiRCE conference last weekend. I love RS math, but would it be possible to switch to Ray's when I am done with RS or should we be supplementing with it now? (1st grade) I am supplementing with Miquon now.

[kristinannie]

I just found this old thread that has free digital copies of Ray's Arithmetic.

[coralloyd]

I just wanted to say that I have started to use Ray's and MUS, with my son. One week Ray's, one week MUS. I like the rote and relaxed way of Ray's and the visual, how and why of MUS. MUS is another curr. that really focuses on getting your child to see the number without counting. Their blocks help tremendously to do this. They also want your child to really know their facts before moving on to the next concept.

[SorrelZG]

 

Don't panic and obsess over everything your learn about the "best" way to teach. If you have time and desire, apply what you are learning. If you are getting overwhelmed, pull back and teach with the methods that are more familiar for NOW. We know how pitiful our educations were, but we are okay. I think everyone here is housed, has adequate nutrition and at least substandard but present medical care. Yes we WANT better for the next generations...but panicking and overstudying instead of BEING with that generation isn't going to benefit as much as a calm mommy and home.

 

So we read during our down time. We add little bits here and there as we are able. We think ahead to the next few generations. We work on their character and mental health FIRST. We LIVE, because none of us are promised a tomorrow.

 

This is a precious gem of wisdom I should be wearing around my neck.

 

I've been following links and reading a string of threads while reading the manual linked to from one of them (was it this one? see .. that's how lost I am).

 

This thread has been a wonderful read .. along with whatever else along the same lines I have been reading this afternoon. :lol:

[Hunter]

I'm finding it interesting to reread this old thread, and am actually being helped by my own "notes". As I mentioned in this thread I have some brain damage and memory loss, so it's really funny to read my old posts. Amazingly I'm pretty consistent...considering :-0 I love, love, love this stuff; but find it hard to keep up with. Sometimes I get so overwhelmed and lost in it all, and just walk away for a bit. Last week I was so overwhelmed with it all. This week I'm entranced with it all, but I'm noticing I'm doing a huge amount of odd word substitutions, so I know my brain isn't functioning so well, and my time might be better spent on open-and-go, but...this is what I'm doing for better or worse.

 

There are recent threads here about the Grube method and the books written more directly off of it, than Ray's.

 

I think I'm going to use Ray's starting with the Practical Arithmetic, but Franklin and others before that. I need the Grube's in the STUDENT book, not just the teacher's manual.

 

For those using Ray's Practical Arithmetic, there is Dubbs supplementary problems as well as the Test Examples. Answers are included. I didn't find out about Dubbs until very recently :-0

 

With all the Ray's talk, how have we never heard of Dubbs and Grube? :-0

Edited July 24, 2012 by Hunter

[Eileen Aroon]

Because the name Ray inspires a lot more confidence than the other two?:tongue_smilie:

[Eileen Aroon]

Seriously though, I think this thread (and others linked) have been exactly what I need. I am grateful to you all for your thoughts.

 

And phroggies, I actually liked your summary of Andw Pudewa's quote better than the actual one.

[SorrelZG]

What I read in the Manual of Methods has me inclined to pull Prof. B back out, at least while I continue this reading and checking out these other suggested resources.

[Hunter]

What I read in the Manual of Methods has me inclined to pull Prof. B back out, at least while I continue this reading and checking out these other suggested resources.

 

PB seems to be based on Grube's. All that fingerwork.

[Hunter]

Because the name Ray inspires a lot more confidence than the other two?:tongue_smilie:

 

Yeh, but I remember when Ray's was kinda new by Mott Media. There were no free internet versions. I guess whichever versions were put into hardcopy by the oldschool homeschoolers are considered the ONES.

 

It makes you wonder which one of our curriculums will be reprinted 100 years from now and WHY.