"I don't think you should allow me that, though."

[Trish]

I think what she said WAS disrespectful. Just because someone is being honest and/or insightful does not mean they need to let whatever they think come out of their mouth. In our house, that would've been labeled as 'sass'. Not HORRIBLE sass, mind you. In fact, now that I think about it more, it would really depend on the attitude and tone of voice with which it was said. I guess it could be either a really blunt, honest conversation, OR sass. :tongue_smilie:

 

I could totally see dss15 saying something like this. And if he did, my part of the conversation would've been different than how you handled it. Basically, I would've said something like, 'Ok then. What you're telling me is that 1) I'm not being a good mother and 2) You don't have enough self control to make the decision that is right because you'd rather do what feels good. So son, you're right. I've made a mistake here. We no longer leave this decision up to you, since you've just proven that you're not mature enough to handle it.'

 

I realize we have to let our kids make the 'bad' decision sometimes. But if they're smart enough to articulate all that your dd did, but STILL telling me that they're gonna go ahead and do it anyway? Yeah, I can't get down with that, LOL. :D

 

How DOES one tell a parent, then, that the level of responsbility handed to him/her is too much for them to handle? The kid admitted she isn't mature enough to deny herself (whatever it is) and thinks she as a parent wouldn't permit (whatever it is), and is basically outlining this fact.

 

So the sass is in the honesty with the parent, here? Or in not being able to deny herself what she knows is probably not the best choice? As a kid, I can definitely picture being in that position. I can think of any number of situations that fall in that category.

 

"Smart enough to articulate" still does not equate to "mature enough to do what an adult would do in a similar situation."

 

I guess I kinda found your theoretical response to your child to be more immature (and I'm not trying to call you names, please understand that, I'm characterizing the RESPONSE to what I perceive as a child's cry for help) than what the child is expressing. I would want a parent to react in a more understanding way, not go all on the defensive by either accusing me of sassing, or bringing the hammer down in a mean way as a result of what I said.

 

Anyway, if you respond poorly to something like that, you can be assured the next time the kid says nothing. It makes me sad.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm sorry - I did not read all the replies. I hate it when other people say that, but I'm just not up for it right now. I'm also sorry if someone has already said this, but I'm wondering if she said what she said so that if her decision to go ahead with this questionable activity turns out badly she can then turn around and blame you for not putting your foot down. Just a guess, really. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.

[katilac]

I think it's a very typical response, and it doesn't come across as disrespectful - particularly as your parenting style does include a lot of open discussion, and you yourself are very opinionated and direct. Apple, tree, y'know? :D

 

I'd be fine with the what she said and the way she expressed it, altho' it might hurt my feelings only in the sense that I would prefer my kids to think I'm the world's best mom who always makes the right choice ;)

 

At this point, I'd probably just let it go. It seems like bringing it up again might be making too much of it, turning it into an issue where none may exist. I would be alert for signs or hints that [/i]she[/i] is trying to bring it up again, or that (in future) she may be hinting that she doesn't really want to make certain decisions.

 

If you really get the vibe that she isn't comfortable with her own decision, it's okay to override her. I personally would simply say that, and "own" it. "I know we said it was up to you, but we were wrong. We are going to decide."

 

I wouldn't bounce it back on her, "well, you keep making these comments about my parenting, so obviously you're not ready to yada yada yada." That just sounds petty, and it makes it less likely that she will be open in future about doubts and indecision. Of course teens are contradictory and ambivelent at times; no one goes from dependent child to independent adult w/o a lot of bumps in the road. It's incorrect and counterproductive, imo, to use that ambivilence as 'evidence' of them being immature or unable to make responsible decisions. ((I'm not saying this in direct response to any of your posts, but more in response to various other posts))

[Bluegoat]

I would have thought that way at that age. It would not have meant that I was looking to have the decision made for me. It meant that I was, to a degree, able to put myself in the shoes of another person, imagine holding their view, and extrapolating what I'd have done about it.

 

In this case, the daughter doesn't understand why the parent is allowing the choice based on the mother's different view. That is pretty typical of a smart 14 year old - they tend to see things in black and white, even when seeing them from someone else's perspective. And they lack the experience to see why allowing a bad choice might have its own benefits.

[justamouse]

This would be a precedent in my relationship with her, I think. I have been really consistent with what I was saying up until now, with very few exceptions and not of this kind. If I "unsay" that permission, I have no idea how she will react - she will probably be REALLY surprised... and will I not look like a mother who does not 'really' mean what she is saying, if she is taking it back when 'confronted'?

 

I have NO CLUE what to do. I would like to ask for a clarification first, and then I will have to probably think rapidly right then and right there and estimate whether I should forbid it after all.

 

While you're doing dishes together-I don't know, SOMETHING that you are doing along side each other, tease her and ask her what her plans for her new found freedom are and if you should take out any insurances. From there you can take the temperature of the situation. :grouphug:

[Sahamamama]

This is sort of how I first took it. Not as a cry for help, but like this, plus my slight annoyance.

 

But maybe I was wrong? This girl often has a mind difficult to read, even for a mother.

 

I remember how, as a teenager, I was reading through some silly article about self-psychoanalysis :glare: and getting feedback on our personality :tongue_smilie: from those who know us best. So I asked my mother, "In one word, how would you describe me?" Without a pause, she said, "Complicated." :001_huh: We laugh about that now.

 

You know, EM, I wouldn't read too much into this. I'm not presently raising teenagers, though I do have three girls! :blink: But I well remember being fourteen. IMO, teens (especially verbal ones) will say provocative things, just to observe the impact such statements have on other people. It's not exactly cat-and-mouse, but there is an element of that in there.

 

IOW, your daughter might not care too deeply about your parenting approach, one way or the other. She may not be criticizing it (or you) at all. OTOH, she may have detected a vulnerability in you about this decision. So she's probing you, to see what is in your heart and mind, to see what response her provocative statements will elicit in you. Perhaps your best bet is to play it cool and go with your original decision to let her make (and own up to) the decision about the minor issue.

 

I think that in some ways, this daughter will be the one who most knows you and how you tick. ;) Is that uncomfortable?

[ereks mom]

I'm sorry - I did not read all the replies. I hate it when other people say that, but I'm just not up for it right now. I'm also sorry if someone has already said this, but I'm wondering if she said what she said so that if her decision to go ahead with this questionable activity turns out badly she can then turn around and blame you for not putting your foot down. Just a guess, really. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.

 

That's what I'm thinking too. It sounds like she's pretty sure it's going to end badly, and she wants someone to blame when it happens.

[Sahamamama]

How do I talk to her later today?! I feel lost.

 

"Honey, I was worried about something you said yesterday and I did not know how to interpret it."?

 

Or... DO I talk to her at all? :confused: What if I am blowing this out of proportions and what if I should just ignore it?

 

But I am still not at ease with it. Something is odd.

 

Sigh.

 

EM, in this case, you should forbid her to do whatever. Go with your instincts in this case. The ill-at-ease feeling is your alarm/warning system going off. Listen to it.

 

I realize that there does come a time in a young woman's life when she needs to own up to her decisions and their consequences, but if your alarm is going off so strongly, the consequences of your daughter's decision may be too steep a price to pay.

[*********]

How DOES one tell a parent, then, that the level of responsbility handed to him/her is too much for them to handle? The kid admitted she isn't mature enough to deny herself (whatever it is) and thinks she as a parent wouldn't permit (whatever it is), and is basically outlining this fact.

 

So the sass is in the honesty with the parent, here? Or in not being able to deny herself what she knows is probably not the best choice? As a kid, I can definitely picture being in that position. I can think of any number of situations that fall in that category.

 

"Smart enough to articulate" still does not equate to "mature enough to do what an adult would do in a similar situation."

 

I guess I kinda found your theoretical response to your child to be more immature (and I'm not trying to call you names, please understand that, I'm characterizing the RESPONSE to what I perceive as a child's cry for help) than what the child is expressing. I would want a parent to react in a more understanding way, not go all on the defensive by either accusing me of sassing, or bringing the hammer down in a mean way as a result of what I said.

 

Anyway, if you respond poorly to something like that, you can be assured the next time the kid says nothing. It makes me sad.

 

O.Kay. :001_huh:

 

The sass would be in the way they said it. Did you read my post? I thought I clarified that...

[Sputterduck]

I think that conversation was great. I'd be proud of her if I were you. :)

[Ester Maria]

Update.

 

We talked. The decision is still hers.

 

She WAS attempting to talk between the lines about the major thing too. She said she was wondering how to approach that topic with me these days. We agreed to talk it through tomorrow, I understand her mixed feelings on some things.

 

Overall relieved.

 

Thanks to everybody.

[Tap]

Update.

 

We talked. The decision is still hers.

 

She WAS attempting to talk between the lines about the major thing too. She said she was wondering how to approach that topic with me these days. We agreed to talk it through tomorrow, I understand her mixed feelings on some things.

 

Overall relieved.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to everybody.

 

:hurray: It is nice when the mama instict still works! I am glad you followed your instincts that something about the conversation was not quite right. I hope your conversation tomorrow is a good one.

 

 

Good job mama!

[Sahamamama]

Update.

 

We talked. The decision is still hers.

 

She WAS attempting to talk between the lines about the major thing too. She said she was wondering how to approach that topic with me these days. We agreed to talk it through tomorrow, I understand her mixed feelings on some things.

 

Overall relieved.

 

Thanks to everybody.

 

Good job! I'm glad it's working out well.

[Ester Maria]

Update #2.

 

Opened the Pandora's box with that major issue.

 

She openly said that she wanted ME to decide about what really, really, REALLY should be HER decision - because she is afraid of making the wrong decision either way.

I tried to point out that there are no guarantees in life, that life is a risk and that is what makes it interesting, no risk no profit, BLA BLA BLA, the things we all know. I tried to point out that she cannot "calculate" perfectly what would be a better option sometimes. Sometimes, you just have to make a choice.

Even I have no idea what is genuinely the best thing to do in this particular major situation. I have my preference, as a mother, but I cannot know what is the best thing for her in this case. Which is why I want HER to decide, because she is a big child now and must start making her own calculations.

 

Then we were irritated with each other a bit in frustration.

 

Now I am :banghead:. More with myself than with her, though.

 

She said that if I do not decide on her behalf, she would toss a coin. Sigh.

[Mama Geek]

It really sounds like she doesn't want to be responsible if she makes the wrong decision.

[Tap]

Update #2.

 

Opened the Pandora's box with that major issue.

 

She openly said that she wanted ME to decide about what really, really, REALLY should be HER decision - because she is afraid of making the wrong decision either way.

I tried to point out that there are no guarantees in life, that life is a risk and that is what makes it interesting, no risk no profit, BELA BELA BELA, the things we all know. I tried to point out that she cannot "calculate" perfectly what would be a better option sometimes. Sometimes, you just have to make a choice.

Even I have no idea what is genuinely the best thing to do in this particular major situation. I have my preference, as a mother, but I cannot know what is the best thing for her in this case. Which is why I want HER to decide, because she is a big child now and must start making her own calculations.

 

Then we were irritated with each other a bit in frustration.

 

Now I am :banghead:. More with myself than with her, though.

 

She said that if I do not decide on her behalf, she would toss a coin. Sigh.

 

How about helping her to make the decision. I am like you, and allow my children a lot of control over their own paths. Like I said before, I am not naive to the games kids play, but at the same time, I did make good judgment calls for the most part (well I did a good bit of street racing in my youth, but that is another story LOL). I partyed...but not to blackout stage and didn't ride with people who had been drinking.

I skipped school a lot....but we weren't doing anything inherently dangerous.

I skinny dipped at the lake.....but I didn't jump off the bridge.

I had sex young....but we used 2 forms of birth control, every time.

 

etc.

 

I was keen on personally safety. I was smart about how to get myself out of a bad situation. I was forward enough to say "I need to leave now, and you are driving me".

 

Life experience doesn't just happen, kids need to learn it, live it and experience the good and bad from their decisions. As parents, we need to make sure they are not in over their heads.

 

In you daughters case it sounds like she needs some help sorting it all out. I would start with a positive/negative list. Help her flush out what she can gain from going, and what she may struggle with. Work out some of the ramifications and some of the advantages. Put it on paper and see if it helps her to make up her mind.

 

We do this a lot in our house, when the kids are making decisions. We did it about a month ago with ds17. He is deciding between another year of community college and heading to bible college. By putting it on paper and discussion each topic as the columns took shape, I was able to understand how much weight he placed on each item and I could offer him some counter balance that he would not have seen on his own.

 

 

And if it gets down to a coin toss.....so be it. Sometimes, as simples heads/tails is all the difference we need.

[*********]

Why does she not want to decide?

 

If the decision has long lasting consequences, then I'd suggest more prayer, seeing as both of you do not seem sure about the decision either way.

[Ester Maria]

In you daughters case it sounds like she needs some help sorting it all out. I would start with a positive/negative list. Help her flush out what she can gain from going, and what she may struggle with. Work out some of the ramifications and some of the advantages. Put it on paper and see if it helps her to make up her mind.

I did this with her. So now she is before this final step, paralyzed, "pick for me because I do not want to be responsible". You are right, we should put it in writing, black on white, maybe that would help. I will talk to her later again, now she has some matters to attend to, so meanwhile I came back here to lament.

[Ester Maria]

Why does she not want to decide?

 

If the decision has long lasting consequences, then I'd suggest more prayer, seeing as both of you do not seem sure about the decision either way.

I am not sure we are going to become any wiser, honestly. :( It has reached a point at which somebody has to DECIDE. There is way too much theory in the air and it is only burdening her. I think a DECISION, in any direction, would be liberating for both of us, mentally. I just think the decision should be hers in this case, even if obtained by the coin method. I sort of want to check that box, if you know I mean? Choose ONE option, and then see how to commit to it and get the best out of it. It if goes "wrong", she always has a safe place to fall back to with us as parents, no matter WHAT, in life in general.

 

I would just like her to decide, and she is paralyzed.

[In the Rain]

:grouphug: At least you are talking openly about it, whatever it is. :grouphug:

[simka2]

Update #2.

 

Opened the Pandora's box with that major issue.

 

She openly said that she wanted ME to decide about what really, really, REALLY should be HER decision - because she is afraid of making the wrong decision either way.

I tried to point out that there are no guarantees in life, that life is a risk and that is what makes it interesting, no risk no profit, BLA BLA BLA, the things we all know. I tried to point out that she cannot "calculate" perfectly what would be a better option sometimes. Sometimes, you just have to make a choice.

Even I have no idea what is genuinely the best thing to do in this particular major situation. I have my preference, as a mother, but I cannot know what is the best thing for her in this case. Which is why I want HER to decide, because she is a big child now and must start making her own calculations.

 

Then we were irritated with each other a bit in frustration.

 

Now I am :banghead:. More with myself than with her, though.

 

She said that if I do not decide on her behalf, she would toss a coin. Sigh.

 

If I am reading this correctly, she is now admiting she is not ready for this responsibility. As a parent I would need to answer two questions: Is she ready, but just afraid? or, could she being gut level honest and needs the safety of Mom or Dad?

 

Hard questions to answer, because I think they would look very similar. Maybe there is a middle road. Something along the lines of, "We have gone over the pro's and con's together and I am can see that this truly is a tough decision. You still needs to make this decision, but know that it would not be easy for me to make, even as an adult, and no matter the fallout I will be by your side."

 

Just more thoughts! :001_smile:

 

 

Edited" Just read your further response. I would feel the same in your shoes. Part of growing up is making tough decisions....and sometimes it is at the flip of a coin. :)

Edited March 20, 2012 by simka2

[bookfiend]

I am not sure we are going to become any wiser, honestly. :( It has reached a point at which somebody has to DECIDE. There is way too much theory in the air and it is only burdening her. I think a DECISION, in any direction, would be liberating for both of us, mentally. I just think the decision should be hers in this case, even if obtained by the coin method. I sort of want to check that box, if you know I mean? Choose ONE option, and then see how to commit to it and get the best out of it. It if goes "wrong", she always has a safe place to fall back to with us as parents, no matter WHAT, in life in general.

 

I would just like her to decide, and she is paralyzed.

 

So is this indecision actually fear of failure? The previous readings of the "decision" seemed to imply that there was a clear right and wrong. The big issue you refer to sounds more like a crossroads decision.

 

Maybe you can go through an expanded decision tree with her. Beyond listing Pros and Cons, think through the best and worst case outcomes of each side. Then ask, what will be the possible action points/situations available at the end of the best and worse cases. How would she see herself going forward at the end of each place? How much risk is she comfortable with?

 

Hope I have articulated this thought process well.

 

ETA: Additional thoughts -

Is there a deadline? Is there buffer room to wait on the decision? Is the decision irreversible - meaning, can you make the decision for her now, allow her to feel that outcome, and after a period of time, release the issue and allow her to decide a path?

Edited March 20, 2012 by bookfiend

[Ester Maria]

So is this indecision actually fear of failure? The previous readings of the "decision" seemed to imply that there was a clear right and wrong. The big issue you refer to sounds more like a crossroads decision.

 

Maybe you can go through an expanded decision tree with her. Beyond listing Pros and Cons, think through the best and worst case outcomes of each side. Then ask, what will be the possible action points/situations available at the end of the best and worse cases. How would she see herself going forward at the end of each place?

 

Hope I have articulated this thought process well?

Yes, very well. Especially the bolded. That is the crux, this is not a clear cut situation in either of our eyes.

 

I talked to her bringing up the "what is the worst thing that can happen?" issue, showing that it is not going be that drastic in any case, but the more I think about this, the more it seems to me that putting it on the paper, literally, would be a pretty good idea too.

 

I agree that the fear of failure may be a factor. Deadlines are involved, yes. Not THAT soon, but she has to make up her mind quite soon.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Ester Maria

[swellmomma]

Okay so what is the issue at hand? I will take it off of both of your hands and decide for her ;) after all I know what is best for everyone else all the time ;)

[Teachin'Mine]

Tell her to go ahead and flip a coin. Then live with that decision for a few days or so as if it has been decided and is done. How she feels during that time - relieved the decision is over, or thinking she should be going the other way - will help her decide whether that was a good decision or not. If she's not at peace with her coin-flip decision, then have her spend the next few days thinking the other decision has been made and see how that feels. Decisions can be hard.

[bookfiend]

Yes, very well. Especially the bolded. That is the crux, this is not a clear cut situation in either of our eyes.

 

I talked to her bringing up the "what is the worst thing that can happen?" issue, showing that it is not going be that drastic in any case, but the more I think about this, the more it seems to me that putting it on the paper, literally, would be a pretty good idea too.

 

I agree that the fear of failure may be a factor. Deadlines are involved, yes. Not THAT soon, but she has to make up her mind quite soon.

 

So if there isn't a straight right and wrong, and the consequences aren't drastic or irreversible.... then this might be a good time for your daughter to experiment with taking calculated risk.